Marital Concepts from the 1950s

[Ruby Slippers]

I read a great book (written in the 70s) called Passages: Predictable Crises of Adult Life. It went through the stages of development and discussed patterns like the "mid-life crisis" and "empty nest syndrome", for example. The author reported on a study of traditional Western marriage, which found that most of the men who originally believed they wanted the 50s-style marriage found once they were in it that they were eventually uninspired and bored by a wife whose only vocation was to tend the home and kids. Many of them felt that intelligent, adult discussion and connection was lacking.

 

My last boyfriend came from a conservative religious background and wanted this type of marriage. When I told him that one of my biggest concerns was the above, he seemed to understand and had no meaningful response. I got the impression he could see the truth in it.

 

I felt it was a mighty risky proposition. In such an arrangement, development of skills that are marketable and lucrative in our calculated capitalist model would stagnate, meaning in a sense I would be signing up for permanent "employment" to him and our family. A big sacrifice and risk.

[calvincline47]

Much has been made about the decline in the traditional family unit but violent crime is at historic lows

 

FBI: Violent crime rates in the US drop, approach historic lows - U.S. News

 

Children have never been safer in America There?s never been a safer time to be a kid in America - The Washington Post

 

Teen pregnancy at all time lows Teen Pregnancy Rates Hit Historic Lows - Health - Boston.com

 

 

So it's not all doom and gloom

 

Okay great. Now, post one about the increase in teen drug overdoses, increased unemployment, and our declining economy and status as a world empire.

[calvincline47]

Gloria nothing you write has any actual bases in science.

 

Where's your science?

 

I can't help but shake my head at your seemingly unawareness to your own gender and your own actual personality.

 

So if someone disagree with the feminist regime, it's actually because they don't know themselves? Okay. Makes sense.

 

I laugh because what you say doesn't work in a marriage is working very successful in mine. And the more traditional role that you seems to think is successful contributed to the downfall of my husband's first marriage.

 

I am far more than just a cook and house keeper. There is no way that would fulfill me and it doesn't have to. The beauty of it is, I can have my career, my family, and my husband as a true partner. I have no issues if someone wants the traditional version, more power to them, but that would never have worked for me. And that is okay. There is no ONE way to work a marriage. With the different personalities and factors at play the parties navigate them as best the can, and will hopefully, utilize each person's strengths to divide up duties and work. My husband, at this point in his career, would love to have it so he could be a stay at home. And he would would be awesome raising our baby! Myself, not as much. I do not see him doing it forever without starting a business (this man never sits still!), I would love to be able to give him a sabbatical from a very long running career. He deserves to stop and smell the roses.

 

The one thing, that I have found, to make a happy marriage, is regardless of what the person is doing, gratitude and appreciation for their contribution. Gratitude is what makes it all work and what gets you through the tough times regardless of how you have divided things up.

-----------------------------

And can I say I do cut the grass, take out the trash and neither of us changes the oil, we pay someone to do that.

 

Actually I FAR prefer to do the lawn work than do house work so will rock, paper, scissor the hell out of that so I don't have to go do the dishes! And he loves to mulch and plant.

 

We just ebb and flow. Some times I carry a heavier load, some times he does (he is right now due to my morning sickness, i.e. all day sickness, and is is a freaking rock star! I keep telling him how blessed I am to have him as a partner. He truly humbles me.)

 

My husband, is 100% a partner. There are no rules, expectations, exceptions. He sees no gender roles and just steps up and does whatever he see needs to be done. So taking care of him brings me joy regardless if it means bring him dinner, running an errand for him, contributing my paycheck, or cleaning up the never ending cat puke that summer brings.

 

My paycheck is what pays most of our bills. Due to his obligations from his previous marriage, most of what he makes go there. That is the way it should be. We can easily live on what I make so everyone is (pretty) happy. If I wasn't the career woman I am, all of this would be unattainable and everyone would be struggling. So my career brings him peace of mind, happiness, and financial security. Win/win.

 

All anecdotal (n=1).

 

You don't have kids yet and it sounds like you haven't been married that long.

 

Do you really think that you are any more of an expert than the rest of us? At least xoxo has been married for 20+ years and has kids. So her views are more valid.

[RoseVille]

So this is how many people saw marriage before the birth control pill came out and women realized they could control their destiny.

 

Fixed it for you.

[elaine567]

Okay great. Now, post one about the increase in teen drug overdoses, increased unemployment, and our declining economy and status as a world empire.

 

And you have proof that that is fault of women??

[Revolver]

Okay great. Now, post one about the increase in teen drug overdoses, increased unemployment, and our declining economy and status as a world empire.

 

 

You would have to prove that all those things are the result of the decline in the traditional family unit. Are you going to argue that teenagers do drugs only because of not being in a married household?

 

Do you know how big of a problem suburban drug use is in America lol? And last time I checked most of those children are from 2 parent middle class households

[calvincline47]

And you have proof that that is fault of women??

 

It's obvious that it's the fault of feminism (not necessarily women themselves).

 

All of this began with the destruction of the family unit.

[RoseVille]

It's obvious that it's the fault of feminism (not necessarily women themselves).

 

All of this began with the destruction of the family unit.

 

Feminism = equality for both genders. So it's the "fault" of equality. Why is any consequence of equality bad???

 

The destruction of marriage, as a concept as well as couples deciding to divorce, if anything, is the result of the genders becoming more equal (they're still not quite, but getting there). Women are less viewed as property and carriage, and more like an equal partner. As such, many couples aren't going to make it, because the woman no longer needs to depend on a man for survival, and he can't treat her like crap because he knows as much.

[Weezy1973]

It's obvious that it's the fault of feminism (not necessarily women themselves).

 

All of this began with the destruction of the family unit.

 

Right now, the worst countries (by far!!) on practically all measures are countries that adhere to traditional gender roles by law.

[calvincline47]

You would have to prove that all those things are the result of the decline in the traditional family unit. Are you going to argue that teenagers do drugs only because of not being in a married household?

 

Do you know how big of a problem suburban drug use is in America lol? And last time I checked most of those children are from 2 parent middle class households

 

Exactly. Mother works and is not there for her children anymore. She was not raised right and treats her children like her friends instead of her children. Children have no self-discipline (learned from mom and a watered-down dad) and seek excitement so they turn to drugs.

 

I do know how big of a problem suburban drug use is. I'm from the suburbs and part of the millennial generation. I know tons of people that are addicted to and died from drugs.

 

No one in my family though because of our traditional upbringing.

 

Feminism = equality for both genders. So it's the "fault" of equality. Why is any consequence of equality bad???

 

The destruction of marriage, as a concept as well as couples deciding to divorce, if anything, is the result of the genders becoming more equal (they're still not quite, but getting there). Women are less viewed as property and carriage, and more like an equal partner. As such, many couples aren't going to make it, because the woman no longer needs to depend on a man for survival, and he can't treat her like crap because he knows as much.

 

We don't have equality. Women are in charge of things these days. There's a shift where men are now becoming the oppressed parties.

 

We previously had a system that worked. Now, we don't. Face it. A woman in a position of power simply does not work.

 

Right now, the worst countries (by far!!) on practically all measures are countries that adhere to traditional gender roles by law.

 

Again, not true. China is still very patriarchal and is overcoming us as a leading nation. It has already surpassed our production, by far.

 

Meanwhile, matriarchal nations (western Europe) are declining and going bankrupt. We are heading in that direction as well.

[Got it]

Where's your science?

 

 

 

So if someone disagree with the feminist regime, it's actually because they don't know themselves? Okay. Makes sense.

 

 

 

All anecdotal (n=1).

 

You don't have kids yet and it sounds like you haven't been married that long.

 

Do you really think that you are any more of an expert than the rest of us? At least xoxo has been married for 20+ years and has kids. So her views are more valid.

 

I am sorry, where do I quote science? And yes it is anecdotal, why wouldn't it? I stated my experience because I don't try and blend/assume others into it.

 

I do have kids, I have stepkids, and I am pregnant.

 

And do I think I am more of expert than someone that has never been married, never been in a long term relationship and seems to always meet with dissatisfaction because it gets emotional? Yes, I do.

 

Feminist regime? What on earth!?!

 

Calvin, I do not know you, your story, and wasn't speaking to you. Gloria and I share a lot of the same posts, very familiar with her story and her complaints, so on that I was speaking. And what I stated was there is more than one road to Rome. I did not say one way worked and one way doesn't.

 

Please really read before trying to argue.

[Got it]

Exactly. Mother works and is not there for her children anymore. She was not raised right and treats her children like her friends instead of her children. Children have no self-discipline (learned from mom and a watered-down dad) and seek excitement so they turn to drugs.

 

I do know how big of a problem suburban drug use is. I'm from the suburbs and part of the millennial generation. I know tons of people that are addicted to and died from drugs.

 

No one in my family though because of our traditional upbringing.

 

 

 

We don't have equality. Women are in charge of things these days. There's a shift where men are now becoming the oppressed parties.

 

We previously had a system that worked. Now, we don't. Face it. A woman in a position of power simply does not work.

 

 

 

Again, not true. China is still very patriarchal and is overcoming us as a leading nation. It has already surpassed our production, by far.

 

Meanwhile, matriarchal nations (western Europe) are declining and going bankrupt. We are heading in that direction as well.

 

Oh Honey. You do understand that this "grand old time" you espouse, where the wife was a SAH didn't, and hasn't existed, for large swaths of US households. That outside of a the upper class and some of the middle class, many households had both parents working either on the family farm, or selling wares, or actually working at a factory. That many of Roosevelt's policies towards worker's rights was geared to the working conditions of women and children. And this was much earlier than the super shiny 50's.

 

Women and children have been working for 100s of years. This idea that they were at home tending home and hearth is a Rockwell fantasy.

[Weezy1973]

Again, not true. China is still very patriarchal and is overcoming us as a leading nation. It has already surpassed our production, by far.

 

Meanwhile, matriarchal nations (western Europe) are declining and going bankrupt. We are heading in that direction as well.

 

So now you're quite literally making stuff up. When you have to rely on making things up to "prove" your point, you can pretty much concede that you're wrong.

 

List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

See if you can spot a theme with the countries at the top of the list. I'll give you a hint. It has to do with equality.

[blackcat777]

It's unfortunate that two incomes are nearly required to raise a child now...

 

I also find it ironic, that in a post-feminist world, rather than celebrating the uniqueness that makes women different from men (the ability to give life), women are encouraged to act more like men.

 

I don't think we need to go back to the 1950's. But I do believe gender roles are rooted in biology, and then twisted by society. I feel like we all got so hung up on how society twisted things (then twisted them again, again, and again), we forgot entirely about the biology behind it.

 

The secret is... men and women need to work together. They need to respect each other, respect their differences, and be a team. Yin and yang. Otherwise it's divide and conquer. I think the kids would benefit from this, too...

[truncated]

I work with educated professionals. Both spouses work, but they mostly work for their multiple luxury cars, huge house, and live-in nannies for their children.

 

I'm an educated professional, as are many of the people I know, but my country's economy is tanking right now many of the people here who have lost their jobs, be they educated or otherwise. While some pick up and move to other places, for others, that's not an option.

 

They may be caring for elderly relatives in their home, their spouse has steady and reliable employment here and would have to give that up to move, some can't move because of health problems, etc.

[truncated]

And you have proof that that is fault of women??

 

 

the shift in economic outlook is also due to things like increased automation, different and more efficient construction of goods, increased dependence on petroleum based products that are easier to produce, a demand for lower priced goods, the incease in 'big box" style stores, people living longer and retiring alter, etc., etc., etc.

 

blaming the economic downturn on women being in the workforce doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it? It may play a role, but it's not the only factor.

[truncated]

Exactly. Mother works and is not there for her children anymore. She was not raised right and treats her children like her friends instead of her children. Children have no self-discipline (learned from mom and a watered-down dad) and seek excitement so they turn to drugs.

 

I do know how big of a problem suburban drug use is. I'm from the suburbs and part of the millennial generation. I know tons of people that are addicted to and died from drugs.

 

No one in my family though because of our traditional upbringing.

 

 

 

We don't have equality. Women are in charge of things these days. There's a shift where men are now becoming the oppressed parties.

 

We previously had a system that worked. Now, we don't. Face it. A woman in a position of power simply does not work.

 

 

 

Again, not true. China is still very patriarchal and is overcoming us as a leading nation. It has already surpassed our production, by far.

 

Meanwhile, matriarchal nations (western Europe) are declining and going bankrupt. We are heading in that direction as well.

 

In China, according to my friends who live there, both men and women work, and are expected to do so. the woman is often expected to also do the bulk of the housework, while the man is excused for cheating left and right.

 

You okay with that too?

[calvincline47]

I am sorry, where do I quote science? And yes it is anecdotal, why wouldn't it? I stated my experience because I don't try and blend/assume others into it.

 

I do have kids, I have stepkids, and I am pregnant.

 

And do I think I am more of expert than someone that has never been married, never been in a long term relationship and seems to always meet with dissatisfaction because it gets emotional? Yes, I do.

 

Feminist regime? What on earth!?!

 

Calvin, I do not know you, your story, and wasn't speaking to you. Gloria and I share a lot of the same posts, very familiar with her story and her complaints, so on that I was speaking. And what I stated was there is more than one road to Rome. I did not say one way worked and one way doesn't.

 

Please really read before trying to argue.

 

I've been in relationships before. Never been married, but that was my choice. I don't now nor have I ever had difficulty attracting women.

 

As far as feminist regime, yes, there is one that currently invents and has always invented injustices against women, which have never actually occurred.

 

Oh Honey. You do understand that this "grand old time" you espouse, where the wife was a SAH didn't, and hasn't existed, for large swaths of US households. That outside of a the upper class and some of the middle class, many households had both parents working either on the family farm, or selling wares, or actually working at a factory. That many of Roosevelt's policies towards worker's rights was geared to the working conditions of women and children. And this was much earlier than the super shiny 50's.

 

Women and children have been working for 100s of years. This idea that they were at home tending home and hearth is a Rockwell fantasy.

 

My family is upper middle class and experienced the lifestyle and that you say never occurred. This was in the 1950s-60s time period before feminism hit and ruined the world.

 

So now you're quite literally making stuff up. When you have to rely on making things up to "prove" your point, you can pretty much concede that you're wrong.

 

List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

See if you can spot a theme with the countries at the top of the list. I'll give you a hint. It has to do with equality.

 

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I was speaking in terms of wealth.

 

What do I care if a country has a better standard of living if it does not benefit me directly. My personal standard of living would have been higher in previous generations, which is all I really care about, to be honest.

 

It does not benefit you either. You are a male. You are brainwashed to think that things are better for you than they actually are.

[123321]

Right now, the worst countries (by far!!) on practically all measures are countries that adhere to traditional gender roles by law.

 

In this context the phrase "by law" is what we call "weasel words".

[Eggplant]

One possible compromise is for the grandparents to live with or very near the 2 working parents. The 2 younger parents could support the older generation, and the grandparents could contribute childcare and help with the house. Many of my Chinese friends talk about this being the case where they come from. The grandparents don't consider this a burden but rather are sad when this is not the case.

 

Several posters have commented that a woman could get back into a career later in life, but the unacknowledged truth is that the younger you are, the smarter you are and the more able you are to learn. Plus you have energy. Hence taking up a career in engineering at age 40, for example, is not the same. Plus there is age bias from employers -- you need to get your career going in your younger years.

[Eggplant]

Another point: back in the day people had like 15 children. I wonder whether 2 children now-a-days, even with working parents, aren't getting much more love and attention than they did with a hundred siblings.

 

 

Also, if you're only having 2 kids, why not wait till 30 to start? I can see needing to start at 16 if you want 12 kids.

[Eggplant]

I'm a woman who loves my career for its own sake, not for money or social status. I also would happily cook and clean for a husband. The issue with the OP is:

 

 

"...Even when alcohol, affairs or abuse was the issue in a failing marriage, wives were still responsible for making the marriage work — and for likely causing their husbands to stray, drink or be violent in the first place...."

 

 

Why is women's success in the world dependent on convincing some other unwilling participant to do stuff he doesn't want to do? If my partner wanted to drink too much or sleep around, I wouldn't do a thing about it. I would only police my children, not a grown adult. If I can't condone his actions, then we simply can't be together anymore. I'm not changing or training anybody.

[Eggplant]

Again, women are just so irrational. They will never be "happy".

This is just ... if you are so irrational, then why should we listen to you?

[serial muse]

Failing in the general sense. Our society is declining and we are heading towards losing our status as a superpower.

 

Of course, these days, having a college degree doesn't guarantee a job at all. So having a college degree, in many situations, is completely useless.

 

No surprise that this all began when women came to power.

 

Ah yes, I believe that's what happened to the Roman Empire, too. Also the Ottoman Empire and the Mongols. The communist bloc and the Russian empire before that. Even Alexander the Great, who saw no more worlds to conquer and cried about it. ****ing women taking power, amirite?

 

Ignorance of history and lack of historical context FTW I guess. (Protip: history, even written history, predates the 1950s).

[Robert Z]

I don't think there is anything wrong with being "second in command", some women thrive in the role of SAHM, or Mom with a P/T, usually low paid, menial job.

 

 

So for you, this is all about power and prestige.

 

 

Who wants to marry a power freak?