Thinking about reconciling with my close friend after she and my H had an EA

[velvette]

I think unfortunately for you, your friend sounds like she is a special person with varied interests - she is empathetic and a good listener too.

She and your husband have interests in common and she has an attitude that actually merges well with your husband.

Whilst she and he were well into the high from the mushrooms, you stayed out of it. The biking, the hiking, the skiing and the racquet ball are all THEIR activities.

He will miss her presence in his life, no doubt about that.

 

Forget about all this "my husband doesn't lie" stuff, because it is very obvious that he does.

 

I know you are desperate to stay with him - lovely "architect" designed house, and I am sure all the trappings, and a husband in a high status job.

You have gained insight into what he is really capable of, do not be the "idiot" wife at home, that will believe anything he tells her.

Be very careful here.

 

 

I don't think it matters what kind of person your ex-friend is. The take away here is that one of the ways people develop feelings or fall in love is by spending a lot of time doing things together that they enjoy.

 

 

So, to strengthen your marriage, you need to ensure that the two of you are spending time together doing things that you BOTH enjoy. If its the activities he did with OW fine. If not, the find new things you both enjoy and insist that the other activities are done only with his male friends.

 

 

He's really forfeited the right to have opposite sex friends with his cheating. Although, I think its a bad idea anyway because it sets up almost anyone for infidelity.

Edited May 22, 2015 by velvette

[aliveagain]

I have been spending a lot of time with other friends since this happened. Though it makes me sad to lose my friend, I am OK with it.

 

My H has agreed to NC indefinitely. For now, I'm just going to focus on myself and our marriage. When all that feels truly solid, I'll decide the next step.

 

At some point, I'd like to talk to my friend so that I can be calmer about accidental meet ups.

 

From where I stand now, I don't want a friendship with her. If you read the whole thread, you'll see that I have been reflecting on all that has been said. I have realized that my motives for trying to work things out with her were wrong.

 

If I feel a genuine urge to try to work things out with her sometime in the future, I still may do it. It would require major transformations on her part. I'm not that optimistic that she can change that much.

 

Even if I work things out with her, doesn't mean I'll say she can have a friendship with my H again. There may come a time when I'm okay with them being at the same party. I can't imagine a time when I'll be okay with them going on a bike ride together.

 

Could I suggest that you stop calling her a friend, people that have affairs with your husband are not friends.

[Keats]

I've read every post.

 

The biggest red flag ever is that your husband expected and wanted to remain friends with his affair partner and even requested such a thing of you (I mean that must have hurt?) And even more of a red flag that your friend is asking the same thing.

 

They are asking if the status quo can remain. And that is essentially treating you like nothing. That must hurt? They have already treated you like nothing already. They are just asking for the same thing except you are in on the dirty little secret. It's bizzare.

 

To me you do sound naive. But you have to be. Your world has just been shaken. The people who were loyal to you have been found to be not. They are seeking their place of loyalty again before you wake and realise their true colors and make their life a further inconvinemve by you making an upheavel of change.

 

You sound like a lovely person. But I think they both are relying on just that.

 

Very hard to believe that a two year affair was not physical.

 

Your husband did lie though. And you did fail to pick up on it. You maybe in denial. Or did you know an affair was taking place?

 

It's not you who is asking for everything to remain the same. It is them. Asking you not to break up their world. It's disgraceful you even had to ask for the freidnship to not even remain. I think they were using you and taking advantage yet again and I'm glad you denied this selfish request. They were using you to have an easy life.

 

It's as of they killed a puppy and then told the puppies mother to still be freinds with them. Aha. Disgraceful. Your not seeing your husband right. You will in time.

[DbleBetrayal]

Hell no, she is not your friend. I know what you are going through. I also contemplating reconciling with my "best friend" merely a couple months after discovery, because I did miss her. So much I can understand. But she did you so, so wrong. Don't let that person back in. I was one of those women who also held my girlfriends in high respect and trust, like a sister. Her relationship with me may have even been closer than me and my husband (which perhaps was the issue, irony hey? Since been rectified however), I'd known her much much longer and she was like a soul sister. So much in common, great times, great memories. She was like family- I thought we'd always have each other's backs for life. Come to find she was a snake, my greatest enemy of all time. She used me and was good at it. What I'm saying is I understand. But please don't go there. No good friend or even half arsed friend would ever do that to you.

 

I find it very strange your husband wants this. I'd be so beyond hurt and angry if he was suggestive of the idea after dday.

 

Perhaps it's closure that you want, why did she do this? How could she do it? What did you do so wrong to her that she'd stoop that low? How could you misjudge someone like that? Same questions you ask your spouse, but weirderly much more confusing. You won't find closure, because the answer is never good enough. She took your friendship, trust and life for granted because it's what she wanted to do. It's really that empty.

Edited May 26, 2015 by DbleBetrayal

[loveboid]

Nope.

 

I don't think anyone needs a friend that close.

[DbleBetrayal]

Nope.

 

I don't think anyone needs a friend that close.

 

If you're referring to me, it wasn't sexual- not into that. I was talking a strong bond. Some people do have friends like that. I don't, anymore. I will never trust that much again. With anyone.

 

Took me a long time to realise that not everyone who smiles at you is your friend. I'd heard that saying before, but thought it sounded paranoid and weird. But I can reflect now and see that to be sadly true. I learnt a lot from what happened. And since removed a few one sided relationships I'd swept under the rug. You know OP, this experience can make you stronger- but probably not with the sneaky friend around and the husband that is encouraging you to remain friends with her.

 

You've got to come out of this at least by demanding respect and boundaries from now on. Or else, it's like nothing really changed and your the one left with the memories while everyone else's life goes on like nothing happened.

Edited May 26, 2015 by DbleBetrayal

[merrmeade]

Perhaps it's closure that you want, why did she do this? How could she do it? What did you do so wrong to her that she'd stoop that low? How could you misjudge someone like that? Same questions you ask your spouse, but weirderly much more confusing. You won't find closure, because the answer is never good enough. She took your friendship, trust and life for granted because it's what she wanted to do. It's really that empty.

I think that's a lot of it — closure. Also trickle-truth made me so desperate that I contacted her, thinking she'd tell me the truth. Wrong. It flushed out her loyalty to him and contempt for me; no one needs that.

 

The problem — why it's even a question in the beginning — is that the OP, as a new BS, still sees her WH and bgf through lenses of innocence and trust that she's been wearing for years and years. It takes time but, for good or bad, you can see she's slowly hardening to protect herself and putting on a visor of healthy skepticism.

[sandylee1]

OP

 

would it make a difference to you if they slept together? Because I don't buy this about it being an EARLY when they had no physical distance between them.

 

Get the truth if you want it. For a true reconciliation you need the truth and all to often the BS is lied to about it being an EA.

 

A polygraph would tell you the truth, or even the thought of it will create the parking lot confession. I think they are both still deceiving you about the extent and possibly the duration of this affair. Don't continue being so naive as they are taking advantage of your good nature.

 

Would your husband be quite so kind and understanding if the boot was on the other foot?

[wordster]

I never did write about the similarities in my (ex)relationship with my (ex)sister-in-law, the OW. I'll have to just say I'm going to write about our relationship. To explain the context, certain things still have to be explained.

 

Similarities were that I felt quite close to her before discovering she'd been hiding so much from me. Even though she was my brother's wife (he's since died), I'd been traveling a lot for several years and my friends were small in number. She was important to me and I thought I was loved by her in a warm, deep, strong family way. She'd been close to my mother and had advised her. I only saw her that way and had no idea of the frequency of her contact with my husband, much less the nature of it.

 

I discovered that they meant and were able to communicate to each other much, much more than I ever had a clue about. Later, when I'd pieced together the story of their affair through emails, phone records and texts, I understood that they were closer than my husband and I were at that time and shared everything. They talked constantly - like best friends - and that was how she characterized their relationship when my grown son, living with his dad at her house while she paid them to remodel it, asked her about it. He said she told him that my H was one of her best friends though they were actually much closer.

 

The nature of their closeness was similar to that of your friend and H because, well, that's what an EA is: an unencumbered man and woman discovering they can flirt, tease, joke, flatter (be flattered), feel good about helping (be helped), and generally having a no-demands relationship with someone other than their spouse and pretend that it's fine, sort of a modern friendship.

 

I confronted her first about my suspicions and this idea was exactly what she expressed — that her mother modeled this behavior (having men friends) and mine didn't and that's why she and H had to hide their closeness from me - because I wouldn't understand. After a few weeks of trickle truth from my H, however, I learned that their relationship definitely had become PA, and he was unequivocal that she knew "it was wrong." Yet, I think now that they actually were processing differently. He said they'd regretted when it did become PA and tried to avoid it because (a) they felt guilty and (b) they felt it would destroy their friendship.

 

After Dday, my SIL/OW did not disclose to her H, just as yours did not to hers. In my SIL's case, it was a family decision (right or wrong — I'm not sure any more) because my brother was paralyzed from a stroke and it seemed more cruel than liberating to do that to him. This is very important because it means they never had to "face the music" or live with the pain, fallout, ups and downs, emotional and psychological changes that a betrayed spouse goes through while coming to terms with an affair.

 

I think if they don't see, read about, go to counseling to understand that phenomenon that they can only understand it superficially, if at all. You see this all the time on LS with the OW or OM posts. Whether it's the OW/M or the WH/W, they learn and change only insofaras the consequences have made them. In other words, if they got away with the A, didn't get exposed or even caught, there is not much thought or depth to their understanding about the repercussions of their actions on others. Even the best of them who really try, will only spend so much time and imagination thinking about something they simply don't have to think about. The sooner we stop asking the WS to talk about the affair or their actions, the sooner they stop thinking about it. After all, how pleasant could it be meditating on themselves as cads and worms. So as they stop thinking about it, they let themselves off the hook and move on to other things. Those who do not witness BS wretchedness first-hand quickly move to impatience, judgment and unrealistic expectations. It makes them feel better for one thing. My SIL was like this.

 

The ways that my SIL responded I now realize were not so bizarre because she had only her own feelings to deal with. She was never that sorry, even told me once that it (the A) was fun. She knew she had to apologize and sent a 3-line note, but, as soon as we talked again, she became volatile and accusatory again. This was a very difficult and traumatic time for me and why I was quite fearful for you in the beginning. I realize now that my SIL's understanding of my fragility was nil and, therefore, she had no clue when she was being abusive. Furthermore, she had made me culpable in her mind for the situation for having left my H alone and vulnerable. So she was angry at me. Her feelings were all over the place similar to my H's and mine. She was partly angry, guilty, sad, and ashamed all at the same time but without ANY understanding whatsoever of the extent to which I'd been traumatized.

 

She tried to reconnect with me a couple of times through email. She sent an "I-remember-your-mother-so-fondly" note on the anniversary of my mother's death. She wrote that she was sure that she and I would laugh and cry together again as friends and sisters. I even realized finally with complete bewilderment that she actually had planned to extend her friendship to me as a way of making up for what she'd done, for having cheated with my husband. She'd remarked in pity that I didn't have as many friends as she did and so this was going to be her gift to me.

 

Well, this idea was the most terrifying, nauseating and threatening possibility of reality I could imagine. Please tar and feather me instead. The few exchanges we'd had revealed a colossal lack of understanding that had ripped open my raw wounds and made the shock and grief I was reeling under reverberate a thousandfold. If this hand of friendship was going to pop up unexpectedly for the rest of my life, then I was doomed to a life of PTSD.

 

With you, I saw in the beginning that you haven't been hurt by this friend yet. You sort of alluded to the possibility that she doesn't quite get it, but you hadn't interacted with her enough to know what it would be like to actually renew the connection. You may recall, my first or second post was shocked and tried to warn you.

 

In my situation, my SIL continued - it was very clear - to hold out for the time and place when we would be able to reunite. She texted me when my uncle died that I was welcome to stay at her house for the funeral. (I didn't, couldn't answer.) The really sick part is that I know she always planned in the back of her mind for it to be at my brother's death. She continued to contact me on occasion about family matters as needed in cheerful, informative emails or texts — always as if nothing had happened, as if there was no reason for us not to have normal, friendly communications.

 

And there you have it. At least your friend realizes that there has to be some processing before you could even consider getting together again; she offered to do counseling with you. My SIL seemed to have no clue — or perhaps was refusing to acknowledge — that there was any reason for us to be other than the same way she was with everyone else. And THAT is what insulted and disrespected me the most. THAT glib dismissal of our past so easily with no nod or acknowledgement of what I'd gone through or what it means to me was the most hurtful thing she ever did. She could never make up for it.

 

The end of my story (and it makes me VERY happy to call it an end) was, in fact, after the death of my brother, when the opposite happened from what she expected. I was able to ignore and get away from her with a snub that I could tell and feel was the unforgivable ultimate anti-social disgrace for her blue blood ego. Good riddance!

 

So the answer to your very early question (which I think you've now answered for yourself) about whether you and your friend could possibly have a future together after doing some kind of counseling together is still the same: Why do you need to put yourself through that?

 

But I do have this to add (SO sorry it's so long) to the hypothetical off-chance that you actually try this: You could do it IF -

 

- she is educated about your experience as a BS and shows sincere regret and empathy for ALL of your most important injuries

 

- she is educated about herself as a needy OW or whatever she is and all the factors in her past and present that allowed her to carry out all the selfish, thoughtless acts for her own pleasure and fulfillment, which would ultimately destroy you, her supposed friend, and she SHOWS and can EXPRESS her understanding to you about how she could be so callous

 

- she is clear about WHY it's so important to her to be your friend, ie, is it because of her guilt? her wish to stay close to you and your H? is it selfishness still or a genuine wish to grow and be better?

 

- she understands that she will most likely never interact with your H again and ALL decisions about how much and how you and she interact are yours alone

 

That would be my advice.

 

I haven't visited LS for days because I needed to spend some time outside of my head. It sorta worked. I can be in the moment on occasion, and feel real happiness.

 

In any case, I just read your post Merrmeade, and so, so appreciate you sharing your whole story. I see the parallels and why you felt compelled to warn me. I'm glad you see the few differences, too. My friend doesn't seem as clueless as your SIL. She did tell her husband about the EA, but they haven't talked about the details, something they decided together.

 

The past week or so, I have done some deep soul searching. I see now that I was rushing into a conversation with my friend because of self-imposed deadlines. And that I still felt fear that my H would reject me if I demand too much from him, e.g. having no contact with her for the rest of his life.

 

Now I will wait until my H and I are solid, and I feel solid with myself before even considering the next step. I will only do it if it's for myself. If and when I have the desire to try, that's when it will happen. I also understand that this may be never. Or it could be a failure.

 

The advice you gave at the end of your post is right on the money. I have printed it out and put it in my journal, in case I decide to try to reconcile with her in the future.

 

I am her closest friend. She is one of my closest friends. We have had countless delightful times together. Perhaps both of us will be willing to do the hard work necessary to have that again. Time will tell.

 

Thank you!

[wordster]

I don't think it matters what kind of person your ex-friend is. The take away here is that one of the ways people develop feelings or fall in love is by spending a lot of time doing things together that they enjoy.

 

 

So, to strengthen your marriage, you need to ensure that the two of you are spending time together doing things that you BOTH enjoy. If its the activities he did with OW fine. If not, the find new things you both enjoy and insist that the other activities are done only with his male friends.

 

 

He's really forfeited the right to have opposite sex friends with his cheating. Although, I think its a bad idea anyway because it sets up almost anyone for infidelity.

 

There are a lot of things that we do together--travel, camping, hiking, gardening, dancing, singing, house projects, crossword puzzles. He has agreed to do his high-adrenalin activities with his male friends in the future. Good advice. Thanks.

[wordster]

I've read every post.

 

The biggest red flag ever is that your husband expected and wanted to remain friends with his affair partner and even requested such a thing of you (I mean that must have hurt?) And even more of a red flag that your friend is asking the same thing.

 

They are asking if the status quo can remain. And that is essentially treating you like nothing. That must hurt? They have already treated you like nothing already. They are just asking for the same thing except you are in on the dirty little secret. It's bizzare.

 

To me you do sound naive. But you have to be. Your world has just been shaken. The people who were loyal to you have been found to be not. They are seeking their place of loyalty again before you wake and realise their true colors and make their life a further inconvinemve by you making an upheavel of change.

 

You sound like a lovely person. But I think they both are relying on just that.

 

Very hard to believe that a two year affair was not physical.

 

Your husband did lie though. And you did fail to pick up on it. You maybe in denial. Or did you know an affair was taking place?

 

It's not you who is asking for everything to remain the same. It is them. Asking you not to break up their world. It's disgraceful you even had to ask for the freidnship to not even remain. I think they were using you and taking advantage yet again and I'm glad you denied this selfish request. They were using you to have an easy life.

 

It's as of they killed a puppy and then told the puppies mother to still be freinds with them. Aha. Disgraceful. Your not seeing your husband right. You will in time.

 

My H is no longer holding out for things to go back to normal or to have a friendship with her. Just as I was in denial in the beginning, so was he.

[wordster]

Hell no, she is not your friend. I know what you are going through. I also contemplating reconciling with my "best friend" merely a couple months after discovery, because I did miss her. So much I can understand. But she did you so, so wrong. Don't let that person back in. I was one of those women who also held my girlfriends in high respect and trust, like a sister. Her relationship with me may have even been closer than me and my husband (which perhaps was the issue, irony hey? Since been rectified however), I'd known her much much longer and she was like a soul sister. So much in common, great times, great memories. She was like family- I thought we'd always have each other's backs for life. Come to find she was a snake, my greatest enemy of all time. She used me and was good at it. What I'm saying is I understand. But please don't go there. No good friend or even half arsed friend would ever do that to you.

 

I find it very strange your husband wants this. I'd be so beyond hurt and angry if he was suggestive of the idea after dday.

 

Perhaps it's closure that you want, why did she do this? How could she do it? What did you do so wrong to her that she'd stoop that low? How could you misjudge someone like that? Same questions you ask your spouse, but weirderly much more confusing. You won't find closure, because the answer is never good enough. She took your friendship, trust and life for granted because it's what she wanted to do. It's really that empty.

 

Actually, my H is my best friend.

 

Still, you're right, my friend and I were like family, with a lot in common, many good times and memories. Yes, I see that she behaved like no real friend should. She was selfish. She lied to me. She didn't consider my feelings at all. She didn't have my back. That's a lot she'll have to change about herself if she wants me back.

 

My H values his friendships more than anything else. He's afraid of being isolated and alone. He truly believes he can go back to being just friends with her. I don't think he can see YET how impossible it would be for me to see them together. I believe he will get there, though.

[wordster]

If you're referring to me, it wasn't sexual- not into that. I was talking a strong bond. Some people do have friends like that. I don't, anymore. I will never trust that much again. With anyone.

 

Took me a long time to realise that not everyone who smiles at you is your friend. I'd heard that saying before, but thought it sounded paranoid and weird. But I can reflect now and see that to be sadly true. I learnt a lot from what happened. And since removed a few one sided relationships I'd swept under the rug. You know OP, this experience can make you stronger- but probably not with the sneaky friend around and the husband that is encouraging you to remain friends with her.

 

You've got to come out of this at least by demanding respect and boundaries from now on. Or else, it's like nothing really changed and your the one left with the memories while everyone else's life goes on like nothing happened.

 

I'm definitely coming out of this understanding about respect and boundaries! I also can see more clearly the friends that really think about me and what I need vs. the friends that are fun to be around.

[elaine567]

Actually, my H is my best friend.

 

Still, you're right, my friend and I were like family, with a lot in common, many good times and memories. Yes, I see that she behaved like no real friend should. She was selfish. She lied to me. She didn't consider my feelings at all. She didn't have my back. That's a lot she'll have to change about herself if she wants me back.

 

My H values his friendships more than anything else. He's afraid of being isolated and alone. He truly believes he can go back to being just friends with her. I don't think he can see YET how impossible it would be for me to see them together. I believe he will get there, though.

 

You say your husband is your best friend, really?

 

Yes, I see that he behaved like no real friend should. He was selfish. He lied to me. He didn't consider my feelings at all. He didn't have my back. That's a lot he'll have to change about himself if he wants me back.

 

See what I did there?

[merrmeade]

You say your husband is your best friend, really?

 

See what I did there?

elaine's gender reversal of your statement about your other friend was effective, don't you think, wordster?

 

We've had very different lifestyles but one similarity I see is putting everybody else's needs first, even people who should treat you better and put YOUR needs first. I also am 100% sure that it's antithetical to lasting change for a cheater to be easily and prematurely forgiven.

 

Just things to think about because I certainly wouldn't want you to change your attitude or treatment of your H for HIS sake. Besides, I'm struggling with these same issues and priorities. It's not easy to put yourself first when you don't have much practice.

[stillafool]

 

My H values his friendships more than anything else. He's afraid of being isolated and alone. He truly believes he can go back to being just friends with her. I don't think he can see YET how impossible it would be for me to see them together. I believe he will get there, though.

 

I would hope that he values you more than anything else. If he is with you how is he isolated and alone? Why is this ex friend so important to you that you would even think of risking your marriage again by letting her back into your life. For me and many others this would be a no brainer.

[DbleBetrayal]

Would he agree to do a lie detector test on that 'EA' only... check his reaction when you ask.

[turnera]

When he's spinning a new idea, he HATES it when I shoot it down with reality. I try to keep this to a minimum these days, only standing up for the things that really affect me or I have strong feelings about.

 

Right now, I think about the bits of him that are selfish, wondering if I allowed that side of him to develop by being so accommodating over the years.

 

I wonder if he had the A because I don't respect myself enough. Maybe if I felt more worthy, he would've seen me as more worthy, and would've recognized what he was risking more clearly.

This is exactly right. You had him on a pedestal and so he believed he DESERVED to be on a pedestal. There's no such thing as unconditional love in a marriage. Each of you has to continue to deserve the other. Or stuff like this happens.

[wordster]

elaine's gender reversal of your statement about your other friend was effective, don't you think, wordster?

 

We've had very different lifestyles but one similarity I see is putting everybody else's needs first, even people who should treat you better and put YOUR needs first. I also am 100% sure that it's antithetical to lasting change for a cheater to be easily and prematurely forgiven.

 

Just things to think about because I certainly wouldn't want you to change your attitude or treatment of your H for HIS sake. Besides, I'm struggling with these same issues and priorities. It's not easy to put yourself first when you don't have much practice.

 

I agree that Elaine's reversal was effective. But there are differences between my H and her.

 

My H has seen my devastation day after day for months. He listened to me, and comforted me when I cry. He has admitted that he deceived himself to let the affair happen. That he lied to me. He sees that he made a mistake, and how much that mistake hurt me.

 

We spent a number of weeks on discovery. I asked him a lot of questions, and I believe he answered them honestly because his answers hurt. Why would he choose answers that hurt me if he was lying? Why not tell me the lies I'd like to hear, instead?

 

He has been going to a therapist. He has been reading books on infidelity and mid-life crisis. He understands that I may never work things out with her, and that means his friendship with her is over forever. He says he's committed to me even if that happens.

 

We have been working on the issues in our marriage, spending a lot of time appreciating all the good things we have together. He realizes he has been taking me for granted.

 

He understands that if he falls back into an affair with her or has another affair that I will leave him.

 

He is very generous with people, always wanting to help and rescue them. He once had a patient that came in with an abscess from shooting up heroin. My H got him set up with antibiotics, rehab, family support, etc. A week later, the guy came back in. His abscess was worse, and he hadn't gone to rehab. He said he hadn't filled the prescription because he didn't have any money. So my H got him set up again, and gave him 8 bucks to fill the prescription. The nurses and staff laughed at him. A year, the guy came back and told my H that he'd gotten himself straight. And how much it had meant to have someone believe in him.

 

My H's AP is not generous my my H. She doesn't put herself in someone else's shoes often.

 

She has not told her husband (also my H's close friend) the extent of the affair, nor the details. In the first week, she wrote me a letter of apology, and lied to me about the extent of the affair in that letter.

 

A month after D-day, her H encouraged her and my H to eat lunch together with a group of others. When I found out, I was so upset, I told my H to move out. He apologized and said he wouldn't do that again, and I took him back. (It's been three and a half months since then, and he's kept his word). After the lunch, I called her to reiterate NC. She said that the lunch had been good for her because it showed her she could go back to being friends with him. Her reaction showed me how clueless she is about my feelings.

 

She isn't an evil person, just very out of touch with the effect of her actions on other people.

 

They both betrayed me, of course, but I understand his reasons better. He needs to live on the edge to feel alive. He pushes the envelope a lot. He's afraid of living like a dead person. I think he risked hurting me because he thought the feelings would die out on their own, and he never imagined that I'd leave him. He could have it all, the loyal, loving, supportive, sweet wife at home, and the crazy heart palpitating, giddy falling in love without complications on the side. But I will leave him if it happens again, and I think he knows that now.

 

She betrayed our friendship for reasons I don't understand. Maybe they were the same reasons as he did, but I won't know unless we really get into it. That may or may not happen. I'm pretty sure I'll try at some point, but she might not think my friendship is worth it.

 

In any case, Merrmeade, you are right that I have a tendency to put the needs of other people first. Thank you for sharing your own struggle with this. I am working on it, though, learning to recognize when I suppress my own needs and desires, and trying to change my reaction to situations as they crop up right now in my life.

[Spectre]

Your title doesn't make sense. A close friend doesn't ever have any type of an affair with their close friends spouse. Thus, she was not a close friend.

[wordster]

Your title doesn't make sense. A close friend doesn't ever have any type of an affair with their close friends spouse. Thus, she was not a close friend.

 

Perhaps the words "intimate person" would better suit the situation, since this woman and I have always talked at a deep level and have done many kindnesses for each other over the years?

 

People that love each other can hurt each other horribly. Even some wife beaters love their wives, they just haven't learned how to control their addictions and anger.

 

My dad once told me that my mom (who was a ww, btw) couldn't love like a normal person. He also told me at fourteen that my ability to love was tainted because I wasn't good at speaking up for myself. That really hurt at the time.

 

I now believe that I'm quite capable of awesome love. But that all people are damaged or at least flawed to some degree, and that does affect how perfectly we can demonstrate our feelings of love to each other.

[wordster]

UPDATE:

I just delivered a letter to my H's AP letting her know that I am focusing on myself, my marriage, and my H for the time being. I reiterated my need for NC, and said I would contact her if and when I become ready to talk.

 

The H and I have been taking a much needed break from intense conversations and processing about the A. We'll get back into it when we're both ready for more growth. It's been exhausting for both of us.

 

I still feel devastated. So many things trigger intense feelings, bu I'm learning new coping techniques for that.

 

I just went on a lovely two hour hike with a friend, and that lifted my spirits, too.

[merrmeade]

The list of your H’s R efforts is not that extraordinary but just what a remorseful wayward spouse should do in order to reconcile:

“My

H

has seen my devastation day after day for months. / He listened to me, and comforted me when I cry. / He has admitted that he deceived himself to let the affair happen. That he lied to me. / He sees that he made a mistake, and how much that mistake hurt me. / He has been going to a therapist. / He has been reading books on infidelity and mid-life crisis. “

Check, check, and again check. Hard work which you could not have done with her at the same time. The “intense conversations and processing about the A" are necessary. Taking a break from this work may be hard to reverse later:

“The

H

and I have been taking a much needed break from intense conversations and processing about the A. We'll get back into it when we're both ready for more growth. It's been exhausting for both of us... I still feel devastated.

So

many things trigger intense feelings, but I'

m

learning new coping techniques for that. “

Was this really a “we” decision? Isn’t it more in his self-interest to take a break? You don’t sound anywhere near ready. Do you think you will get a break from thinking about it? You’re simply forced to go inside. If you're quiet, he'll assume you're fine. I mean, what is wrong with exhausting hard work? Talking and processing are important for you to heal. Of course, he will squirm and want a break. The "intense conversations" are excruciating because he was such a schmuck, far from his preferred hero-to-the-rescue image. Without your pain as incentive, he’ll easily stop thinking about the A.

“He is very generous with people, always wanting to

help and rescue

them. ... I think he risked hurting me because he thought the feelings would die out on their own, and he never imagined that I'd leave him... ”

I don’t think you’re actually helping him by becoming just another admirer. He’s a rescuer; rescuers are often narcissists. He needs to let you save him instead.

 

Is it really fair to compare them?

“My

H

's AP is not generous [as] my

H

. She doesn't put herself in someone else's shoes often. / She isn't an evil person, just very out of touch with the effect of her actions on other people.

 

“They both betrayed me, of course, but I understand his reasons better. ...

 

“She betrayed our friendship for reasons I don't understand. Maybe they were the same reasons as he did, but I won't know unless we really get into it. That may or may not happen. I'

m

pretty sure I'll try at some point, but she might not think my friendship is worth it ..."

Since you understand your husband’s “reasons,” you’d understand AP’s as well. But why must you? People understand psychopaths, but it does not mitigate the destruction of their actions or change them. I'm not so sure she'd deserve or benefit from your efforts if you did try.

"A month after D-day, her

H

encouraged her and my

H

to eat lunch together with a group of others... She said that the lunch had been good for her because it showed her she could go back to being friends with him. Her reaction showed me how clueless she is about my feelings... “

Either colossal insensitivity OR complete denial. I rest my case about her and cannot believe you had to go through this.

“My dad once told me that my mom (who was a

ww

,

btw

) couldn't love like a normal person. He also told me at fourteen that my ability to love was tainted because I wasn't good at speaking up for myself. That really hurt at the time.

You are NOT limited because your father said so. Perhaps because two other people made you feel dismissed and irrelevant, you need to purge this one as well. Understandable.

I now believe that I'

m

quite capable of awesome love. But that all people are damaged or at least flawed to some degree, and that does affect how perfectly we can demonstrate our feelings of love to each other.

THIS is what I bow my head to. THIS is why your husband is so lucky.

He needs some freaking humility and gratitude for every single day you give him. If maybe, just maybe, he could check his doctor ego and ignore the Messiah complex for a little while, he'd see who the real rescuer is.

Edited June 7, 2015 by merrmeade

[wordster]

The list of your H’s R efforts is not that extraordinary but just what a remorseful wayward spouse should do in order to reconcile:

“My

H

has seen my devastation day after day for months. / He listened to me, and comforted me when I cry. / He has admitted that he deceived himself to let the affair happen. That he lied to me. / He sees that he made a mistake, and how much that mistake hurt me. / He has been going to a therapist. / He has been reading books on infidelity and mid-life crisis. “

Check, check, and again check. Hard work which you could not have done with her at the same time. The “intense conversations and processing about the A" are necessary. Taking a break from this work may be hard to reverse later:

“The

H

and I have been taking a much needed break from intense conversations and processing about the A. We'll get back into it when we're both ready for more growth. It's been exhausting for both of us... I still feel devastated.

So

many things trigger intense feelings, but I'

m

learning new coping techniques for that. “

Was this really a “we” decision? Isn’t it more in his self-interest to take a break? You don’t sound anywhere near ready. Do you think you will get a break from thinking about it? You’re simply forced to go inside. If you're quiet, he'll assume you're fine. I mean, what is wrong with exhausting hard work? Talking and processing are important for you to heal. Of course, he will squirm and want a break. The "intense conversations" are excruciating because he was such a schmuck, far from his preferred hero-to-the-rescue image. Without your pain as incentive, he’ll easily stop thinking about the A.

“He is very generous with people, always wanting to

help and rescue

them. ... I think he risked hurting me because he thought the feelings would die out on their own, and he never imagined that I'd leave him... ”

I don’t think you’re actually helping him by becoming just another admirer. He’s a rescuer; rescuers are often narcissists. He needs to let you save him instead.

 

Is it really fair to compare them?

“My

H

's AP is not generous [as] my

H

. She doesn't put herself in someone else's shoes often. / She isn't an evil person, just very out of touch with the effect of her actions on other people.

 

“They both betrayed me, of course, but I understand his reasons better. ...

 

“She betrayed our friendship for reasons I don't understand. Maybe they were the same reasons as he did, but I won't know unless we really get into it. That may or may not happen. I'

m

pretty sure I'll try at some point, but she might not think my friendship is worth it ..."

Since you understand your husband’s “reasons,” you’d understand AP’s as well. But why must you? People understand psychopaths, but it does not mitigate the destruction of their actions or change them. I'm not so sure she'd deserve or benefit from your efforts if you did try.

"A month after D-day, her

H

encouraged her and my

H

to eat lunch together with a group of others... She said that the lunch had been good for her because it showed her she could go back to being friends with him. Her reaction showed me how clueless she is about my feelings... “

Either colossal insensitivity OR complete denial. I rest my case about her and cannot believe you had to go through this.

“My dad once told me that my mom (who was a

ww

,

btw

) couldn't love like a normal person. He also told me at fourteen that my ability to love was tainted because I wasn't good at speaking up for myself. That really hurt at the time.

You are NOT limited because your father said so. Perhaps because two other people made you feel dismissed and irrelevant, you need to purge this one as well. Understandable.

I now believe that I'

m

quite capable of awesome love. But that all people are damaged or at least flawed to some degree, and that does affect how perfectly we can demonstrate our feelings of love to each other.

THIS is what I bow my head to. THIS is why your husband is so lucky.

He needs some freaking humility and gratitude for every single day you give him. If maybe, just maybe, he could check his doctor ego and ignore the Messiah complex for a little while, he'd see who the real rescuer is.

 

Thank you for all your insights, M. You seem genuinely concerned about me, which is sweet. I'm responding to reassure you.

 

I'm the one that chose to take the break. I go like a bulldozer when it comes to fixing problems, and had utterly exhausted myself. As you said, it's hard to stop thinking. I can corral my thoughts for a few hours at best, so still process this crap every day. However, I really, really needed some sweet time with my H to restore myself, and I could see that he did, too, so I decided not to bring up anything with him for a week. I nearly kept my promise.

 

Yesterday he left to take our oldest son to visit colleges for five days. Before he left, he said he could tell that I wanted to talk, and to please go ahead. He was exhausted from a long run of work, so I told him that we would do it when he got back. And we will. I know that it's easy to fall into a lull of normalcy before the important work is done. I have promised myself not to let that happen.

 

As far as my friend goes, I think that denial has been her primary mode since D-Day. Her H blamed himself for the A and forgave her right away. The only dose of reality came from me, and I've gone pretty gently so far. Since she knows about my tough childhood, I think she believes I'm over-reacting about the A because of it. My letter was honest, though, so she can't be in denial about that any longer.

 

After taking to heart much of the advice here, I still think I will try to talk with her when I'm ready. But it's much more clear to me now how much she will have to become self-aware and take responsibility for her behavior if we're going to make any progress.

 

As for your last paragraph, thank you. I've been working on myself this past almost five months. One part of that work has been to recognize my worthiness and know in my heart how lucky my H is to have me.

 

FWIW, my H doesn't have an ego like most doctors I've met. He came to medicine through the back door after realizing that he didn't have the patience to be an administrator in International Public Health, his original plan. He enjoys the excitement of ER, at least he did when he was young. He particularly enjoys the problem solving aspects of the job, and having to think on his feet.

 

We live in one of the poorest states in the country (47th, 48th?). He sees a lot of substance abuse, mental illness, and drunken brawls. The job isn't glamorous.

 

My H never goes for positions of power. After the previous ER director shot himself three years ago (which was devastating, as he was my H's mentor), everyone begged my H to take his position because the next-in-line doctor was a narcissist. No one wanted the narcy as their boss.

 

My H took the reins because he felt obligated, and because he didn't want to have the narcy as his boss, either. Having to deal with problems at the hospital day in and day out has beaten him down. The hospital is on the edge of a financial collapse. Lots of people have been fired and escorted off the premises. Morale is low. He started recruiting a replacement for himself a year and a half ago. Finally, a new doctor stepped in. That was a month ago.

 

In any case, my H is a sweet man. He realizes that he has taken me for granted, and has been regularly expressing his gratitude towards me ever since.

 

I think he now knows what he'd lose if I left.

 

But that's not enough. He needs to change in other ways. It's heart breaking when the love of your life falls in love with someone else. That alone is horrible, even without the lying part of an A. I will not rest until my H fully understands that he lied to me so that he didn't have to make a choice. He could have me and his new love. It was a self-centered move. He knew that if he told me, I'd demand that he end it with her or leave. By lying, he forced me to share him with her without knowing it. Also, he broke trust with me, and now I'll have to wonder for the rest of my life if he's lying to me.

 

I'm going to keep bringing things up until I'm satisfied that he truly understands and believes that telling me the truth, no matter how awful, is the only way we can have a future together.

[elaine567]

He realizes that he has taken me for granted, and has been regularly expressing his gratitude towards me ever since.

 

I think he now knows what he'd lose if I left.

 

But that's not enough. He needs to change in other ways. It's heart breaking when the love of your life falls in love with someone else. That alone is horrible, even without the lying part of an A. I will not rest until my H fully understands that he lied to me so that he didn't have to make a choice. He could have me and his new love. It was a self-centered move. He knew that if he told me, I'd demand that he end it with her or leave. By lying, he forced me to share him with her without knowing it. Also, he broke trust with me, and now I'll have to wonder for the rest of my life if he's lying to me.

 

I'm going to keep bringing things up until I'm satisfied that he truly understands and believes that telling me the truth, no matter how awful, is the only way we can have a future together.

 

Well, this today, I must say, is a bit more realistic and there is a bit more fire in your belly, which is good to see.