Thinking about reconciling with my close friend after she and my H had an EA

[onemanband]

Once agian explain what she will bring to your relationship with your husband what postive effect will she have, what negative effect will she have please share your thoughts on this

[the_artist_1970]

I met my H when I was 17. We got married while in college. We are soul mates and best friends. We laugh and have our own language and go on dates. We talk about almost everything. We travel. We have a great sex life. We've been together for 33 years. We have two teen-aged children still at home.

 

We live in a small town. We moved here 15 years ago with another couple. The wife of the couple is my H's EAP. She was my friend in both high school and college, and beyond. She calls us BFs because we are close, but I've never felt comfortable with that terms. She had a different BF in high school. I wasn't her maid of honor at her wedding. She tends to have intense friendships that don't last. I'm the friend that has stuck by her all these years. She has one other close childhood friend. I have several close friendships here, as well as long-distance friendships from earlier in life.

 

D-Day was 4 months ago. Though my H and my friend have known each other for 30 years as well, and we've been on many vacations together, they didn't "fall in love" until two years ago under the influence of psychedelic mushrooms. Last October they crossed the line into snuggling and kissing and saying I love you. This went on for over 3 months. After D-Day, I said to my husband NC or we have to separate. We stayed together

 

Since then, H and I have been to IC and CC. He says he never planned to leave me. He thought he could have his thrill of falling in love, and it would run its course, and I'd never know. When his feelings from my friend intensified, and threatened to turn into a PA, he ended it. I accept that he's a risk-taker and is going through a mid-life. He's been unhappy at work for several years. All these factors played into his crappy choice. Still it hurts like crazy. I'm bewildered, devastated, in pain. I've always been so careful not to hurt him all these years, and to meet his needs.

 

He has held me for a few months of near daily crying, and listened to me talk, and apologized, and read Shirley Glass book on infidelity. He is working on the source of his deep unhappiness with life in general. I have learned to speak up for myself. We've been working on how to communicate in areas where we disagree.

 

In the beginning, I talked to my friend, too. Then I switched to NC with her because she seemed to have little understanding of what I'm going through. She blamed her behavior on her bad marriage, when in fact she lied to me for months and abused me as a friend. Part of me would like to end the friendship forever. But she wants to try to work things out. She is reading the infidelity book right now, and says she'd be willing to go into counseling with me. I feel like I should give her a chance.

 

I would love input from any BS that experienced double betrayal like I did. Did you forgive your friend? Also, from any women who betrayed their best friends. My other close friends tell me that my friend was never really my friend if she did that to me. Is that true?

 

I've poked around threads looking for a story like mine with no success. If you know of such a thread, please point me in the right direction.

 

Thank you!!!!!!

 

Please do not allow this woman to be a part of your life again. She has shown that she has no respect of M and friendship. You don't need a person like her in your life. A true friend would never do that. Cut off ALL contact with her and you and your DH work on rebuilding your M.

[velvette]

I have been examining my reasons. In fact, I started this thread to help me with that.

 

You pegged me correctly. Part of my self-identity comes from being high minded. Wise. But my body is not cooperating with my mind. :roll eyes:

 

Also, I've been obsessing, and it seemed like rolling up my sleeves and talking to her would allow me to move onto other thoughts.

 

Part of me still hates denying my H anything that he needs to be happy. But in our conversation yesterday, he reiterated that I should take all the time I need. Even forever, if necessary. So the pressure was coming from within.

 

I will take off a few months from thinking about this, and reconsider it when I'm feeling healthy in mind, body, and spirit.

 

 

I haven't been in this specific situation, but I can relate. For years, I tolerated a work friendship my H had under the same guises. I wasn't jealous, I trusted my husband, why should I dictate my H friends, blah blah.

 

 

But, you know what, I didn't like this woman from the get go prior to my H even becoming friends with her. I should have listened to my gut.

 

 

And, even after their affair, I felt bad that my husband had to give her up as a friend. That was before I really understood how affairs work.

 

 

The reality is this woman was not a good friend to him and participating in an affair with him hurt him in many ways. Not saying she was the only one to blame, just saying that's not friendship.

 

 

Don't try to be so sophisticated you become stupid!

 

 

You mentioned envisioning how your life would be without your husband. I think you should spend more time envisioning what you want your life to look like now.

 

 

Picture having people in your life who enhance it not take away from it. Why would you want to spend time and money sitting in therapy with someone like your former friend when you could spend that time building friendships with people who are already healthy that could enhance your life. She simply isn't worth it.

[sidney2718]

Does your former BF's husband know about the affair? And if so, what is his attitude about it?

[wordster]

I agree with that. People can. and do change.

 

I guess some of this depends on what the friendship was like before. To me, if you were always the one giving, she will just take your ongoing forgiveness as a sign to keep trampling on you and it will escalate.

 

The lack of respect would do me in. This is a hard-wired deal-breaker for me.

 

I "get" storms, I "get" perfect storms.

 

What I will never get is how people can betray each other at such levels, when there are sooooooooo many other fish in the sea, and plenty of other fish who are also vulnerable, for that matter, But NOT your best friend & husband choosing to indulge in their whims......

 

Maybe because it seemed safer, somehow? Less real because they'd been friends for so many years? I don't get it either. After thinking back over the past 33 years, I realize that I've had opportunities for both PA's and EA's. I never gave either one serious thought. It was an obvious no-go for me.

[wordster]

I agree with that. People can. and do change.

 

I guess some of this depends on what the friendship was like before. To me, if you were always the one giving, she will just take your ongoing forgiveness as a sign to keep trampling on you and it will escalate.

 

The lack of respect would do me in. This is a hard-wired deal-breaker for me.

 

I "get" storms, I "get" perfect storms.

 

What I will never get is how people can betray each other at such levels, when there are sooooooooo many other fish in the sea, and plenty of other fish who are also vulnerable, for that matter, But NOT your best friend & husband choosing to indulge in their whims......

 

She isn't the only one that gives in the relationship. She does. But when she NEEDS something, she can be a bit of a princess about it. It makes her lose perspective about the needs of those around her.

[wordster]

Just wondering, are you frightened to tell your husband that because of what HE did he cannot have those close friendships any longer?

 

Actions have consequences, and in all honesty the longer your continue to appease your husband, the affect will forever be with you.

 

Again, actions have consquences. And in this case, those friends are no longer friends of your marriage.

 

The fear comes from inside me. After a lot of soul searching, I realize that I'm afraid that if I represent myself when my needs don't match the people that I love, that they will dislike me or reject me. Particularly if I ask someone to make a sacrifice.

 

Because the A has shaken me to the core, I realize that I have to change this about myself to survive the aftermath. Yesterday, I talked to my H. I told him that from where I stand right now, it seems hard if not impossible to ever reconcile with my friend. It told him I didn't know how long, if ever, until I'd feel safe about them resuming a friendship.

 

I know he's more optimistic about it, but he said that he was committed to me, and that he would remain so even if it meant ending the friendship with her permanently.

 

This lifted a huge weight off of me. I feel now that I can take as much time as I need before trying to talk to her. And the talks don't have to lead to reconciliation.

[wordster]

Words matter and the ones we choose may convey something other than what we intend, and the ones we leave out, even more. I’ve consolidated your comments under headings, asked some questions, implied others. Of course, they are out of context. That is the point. Look at what they say when put together thematically.

 

BACKGROUND

You and your H met when you were 17 and “got married while in college.” Why is that important?

 

THE MUSHROOMS

-- In the first post you say they fell “’in love’...two years ago under the influence of psychedelic mushrooms.”

-- Later you say that he blames the mushrooms: "He feels the psychedelic mushrooms played a huge part. He took them with her four times. The first time started the feelings. The last two started the touching."

-- Then, even later you say, “The A was conducted on hikes, bike trips, ski days, and during games of racquetball.”

--THEREFORE: for two years and three months, they fostered the relationship without outside influence. What was the significance of those mushrooms for YOU, Wordster?

 

THE ‘FRIEND’

Seems to me you already gave several answers to how you really and truly feel about the thread question — “... my friend was never really my friend if she did that to me. Is that true?” —

• she calls us BFs because we are close, but I've never felt comfortable with that term.
  
• she had a different BF in high school. I wasn't her maid of honor at her wedding.
  
• she tends to have intense friendships that don't last.
  
• she has one other close childhood friend. I have several close friendships here, as well as long-distance friendships from earlier in life.
  
• How you feel about how she’s treated you since D-day:
  
• she seemed to have little understanding of what I'm going through.
  
• she blamed her behavior on her bad marriage
  
• she lied to me for months
  
• abused me as a friend.
  
• she was turning to him as a confidante, instead of me, which felt like a betrayal in itself.
  
• Deceiving me involved deceiving themselves.
  
• she was definitely rug-sweeping
  
• She's just more attracted to people that are socially charming, which sometimes aren't the deepest people.
  
• She has not chosen a path of giving and kindness
  
• the pains she has experienced in life have turned her selfish and sometimes bitter.
  
• she doesn't respect me. Anyone that abuses someone, and expects to be taken back, doesn't respect the person they abused.
  
• She put herself before me, her desires before my well-being. I think she never believed I would know. She can sometimes be judgmental. Certainly what she did showed her lack of empathy for me at the time.

HUSBAND: You describe your H in contradictory terms:

Remorseful, sincere:

• held me for a few months of near daily crying, and listened to me talk, and apologized, and read Shirley Glass book on infidelity. He is working on the source of his deep unhappiness with life in general.
  
• I think it's possible that my husband learned from his mistake.
  
• I believe my H is telling me the truth. We've had an honest relationship up to this point, and he said that lying to me was another part of the wake-up call for him.

A good person:

• big-hearted and generous.
  
• nonjudgmental and kind.
  
• a rescuer
  
• likes to create magical experiences for people.
  
• well loved in the community.
  
• he usually considers the feelings of those around him.
  
• He is universally well loved in the community. He is so giving of his time, energy, empathy, etc.

'Explanations’ for the A:

• he's a risk-taker
  
• going through a mid-life
  
• unhappy at work for several years.
  
• The wake up call for him happened when he thought sex was a short step away
  
• they seduced each other.
  
• He loves to rescue the maiden in distress, and she was the maiden in distress, asking to be rescued.

.The truth (what really seems to bother you) ??? :

• When I kept asking him what she'd said to him, he told me that she didn't want me to know.
  
• H and friend have been close for years.
  
• [Even though he’s sorry,] One never knows how things will be in year.
  
• I don't feel at all safe now.
  
• Deceiving me involved deceiving themselves.
  
• possible that my H is overestimating his ability to control his own actions at this point.
  
• he said the feelings were so intense, it was like taking heroin.
  
• It doesn't seem likely to me [he would've decided to stop on his own if they'd started having sex]
  
• he's holding out for the friendship to be re-established.
  
• part of having an A for him, required putting reality aside for a while. Reality is seeping back in by increments

WHAT’S REALLY IMPORTANT? These comments reveal a lot — what’s maybe not really in your best interest or what you really care about, what you do care about deep down maybe. What concerns me the most is your willingness to let others’ discomfort drive your choices

SERIOUSLY?

• I would rather that my friends aren't put in that awkward situation five years from now.
  
  
• I can imagine that I might be able to handle being at a party with both of them there in a year or
  so
  .
  
  
• I don't want to lose this huge chunk of my life. My
  H
  doesn't either.
  
  
• I have no practice an denying him anything big. I've never denied him anything that he felt was essential for his happiness.
  
  
• Asking him for indefinite
  NC
  has been hard on me. But it is making me stronger, too, which is good.
  
  
• he loves throwing parties, and now feels he should be spending time contemplating his life.
  
  
• I can't ask him to leave the house he built.
  
  
• He's always had good ideas and a lot of passion around having them fulfilled. I tend to have fewer ideas, and a natural follower. When he's spinning a new idea, he HATES it when I shoot it down with reality. I try to keep this to a minimum these days, only standing up for the things that really affect me

OR IS IT REALLY LIKE THIS?

• I feel like I could handle spending the next phase of my time on this earth in the company of true friends without seeking out a new life partner.
  
  
• I don't know that he would restart the A, but I do know that the fear of it would turn me into a wreck right now.
  
  
• I had planned to call [but] reminded myself ... it wasn't wise to put myself through the pain and stress of a phone call.
  
  
• giddy new love is like heroin,
  so
  perhaps he's over-estimating his own strength.
  
  
• I can't imagine any scenario with the two of them alone that doesn't send me into a panic at this point. Perhaps never.

WORRISOME WORDSTER WORDS

• Re: Decision not to monitor - Ignoring loopholes?
  
• He showed me the one text she sent him about a medical question she had.
  
• I truly believe that he doesn't want our marriage to end, so that will prevent him from doing this.
  
• You may think me naive, but I can't and won't be a policeman.
  
• If he has chosen to lie to me about this, it's between him and his conscience.

 

That's quite an analysis you did for me!!!

 

You asked why I shared that I met my H at 17 and that we got married young. I shared it because it means I've known him about two-thirds of my life. Our relationship patterns are well established. It also means I can read his facial expressions, I know his history of lying (pretty much zilch) etc.

 

We went through a long discovery period where I asked him question after question. I wanted to know every detail of the A, no matter how painful. I could tell by his face whenever I hit on something real that he'd been afraid to admit at first, or whether I'd gone down the wrong path entirely.

 

So either he's suddenly become a amazing liar, though he doesn't have a history of it, or he's telling me the truth about what happened.

 

I know many people on this forum believe I'm naive for believing there was no sex. The therapist called the A kind of middle-school-ish because of the minimal touching. Maybe he lied to the therapist, too.

 

Here's the thing. I believe him.

 

The mushrooms. My friend sang to my H while they were lying next to each other on the trampoline in our backyard under the influence of mushrooms. That happened about twenty-two months ago at a mushroom party at our house. I didn't participate. That's when the romantic feelings started, according to him. I haven't talked to her about it.

 

We see each other as couples all the time, but they don't usually do things alone. Whatever flirting they did after that, I saw it happening. However last September or October, my friend started being interested in mountain biking with my H. They took mushrooms together on a camping trip in October. Their first kiss happened after that on a mountain bike ride, also in October. Then they also started playing racquetball together, going on hikes together, skiing together, etc.

 

My H isn't blaming his behavior on the mushrooms. He feels it opened him up to inappropriate feelings that wouldn't have started without them. But once those feelings were there, he made the bad choices to act on them.

 

My feelings towards my friend--

 

Everyone brings different things to a friendship. She's a person that does things, plans parties, events, outings. She invites me to do things with her all the time. When our kids were little, she organized fruit picking and jam making. She throws a lovely Easter party every year. She gathers materials to make wreaths and invites me to come along. She has so much energy and so many ideas of what to do, that I haven't had to organize those things myself. She gives me produce from her garden. But more than that, she listens to me when something is going wrong in my life.

 

I bring depth, loyalty, enthusiasm, and generosity to the friendship. I listen to her issues with her children or her husband or her extended family. I've run a book club for 15 years, and she's benefited from that.

 

We've had a few fights over the years. She used to always run late, and sometimes that really was a drag. This has improved a lot over time. She felt hurt that I bought a coat on eBay instead of from her shop. She thinks I'm condescending sometimes. I think she's uninformed sometimes. She doesn't listen to her answering machine messages, so I often call and don't get through for days, which hurts my feelings.

 

However, none of these things seemed to be a precursor for her to have an A with my H and to lie to me about it. Yes, she's a little self-involved, and sometimes has trouble seeing other people's point of view. But, in all the years I've known her, I've never known her to treat someone like she just treated me. It's weird. I'm bewildered.

 

Except that's not entirely true. She feels very neglected by her H, and talks to him in not-nice way. She makes demands on him. She's the breadwinner in the family, and she treats him like a typical H in the 1950's treated his wife. She expects him to take care of a lot of things around the house and farm. He says he will, but doesn't keep his word, so she's always disappointed.

 

Still, I don't see anything in this history that says she would treat her best friend this way. I don't get it.

 

The H--

I'm not quite sure what you're driving at with this list. He's never been a jerk to me before, so the A seemed totally out of the blue.

 

Since I last wrote, he has committed himself to me whether or not I talk to my friend again. He chooses me. He will not insist on re-establishing a friendship with her.

 

So here's the new plan.

 

1. I will live in the moment, and stop speculating about the future.

 

2. When I'm ready, I will write her a letter, so that she knows where I stand.

 

3. If sometime in the future, I feel ready to talk to her, I'll contact her then

 

$. If we talk in the future, I will not feel pressure to re-establish the friendship.

[LivingWaterPlease]

I agree. It's just that he usually considers the feelings of those around him.

 

Since I don't know your husband I can't say for sure, but just know that there are people who do a lot of nice things for others to help them feel better about themselves, not necessarily for the other person.

 

Also, you queried in an earlier post about whether or not your husband respects you. From all you've posted I would agree with you as to your suspicions.

 

If you hold your boundary with this woman, not resuming the friendship, that will be a step in the right direction of having him learn to respect you.

 

I would think your ex friend, no matter what she may say, would lose even more respect for you if you should resume the friendship. I don't understand how anyone could miss the fact that it's a foolish decision to get back into a relationship with a "friend" who'd cheated with their spouse.

 

I have an acquaintance who cheated with my ex fiance. They ended up marrying and later divorced. This acquaintance is quite a pleasant person and in my same social circle (loosely speaking). Although I genuinely like her and have had some chats with her socially, I would never in a million years trust her as a friend. That boat sailed out to sea never to return when she cheated with my fiance.

[spanz1]

 

We went through a long discovery period where I asked him question after question. I wanted to know every detail of the A, no matter how painful. I could tell by his face whenever I hit on something real that he'd been afraid to admit at first, or whether I'd gone down the wrong path entirely.

 

 

 

 

The mushrooms. My friend sang to my H while they were lying next to each other on the trampoline in our backyard under the influence of mushrooms. That happened about twenty-two months ago at a mushroom party at our house. I didn't participate. That's when the romantic feelings started, according to him. I haven't talked to her about it.

 

 

 

you were right to ferret out every detail...otherwise some time in the future...maybe 10 years from now, you will be wondering about it

 

 

I must have missed the part about the shrooms! Uh...that actually could explain what happened. he might have had some psychotropic experience where he saw her as some luminous being soul mate or something, and some sort of odd bond was formed. Under those really unusual circumstances, it actually IS possible he did not have sex with her, just some weird intense EA. that is a good thing.

 

 

The trouble with shrooms or acid....they can be life changing experiences, especially if your soul is weak and can not handle it. So is the man who came back the same man you married??? OR did he expand his consciousness and come back a potentially better man and husband? that is what you need to figure out.

 

 

and lay off the shrooms! sounds like he may not be able to handle them. or at least read some Carlos Castaneda or something.

Edited May 20, 2015 by spanz1

[elaine567]

I think unfortunately for you, your friend sounds like she is a special person with varied interests - she is empathetic and a good listener too.

She and your husband have interests in common and she has an attitude that actually merges well with your husband.

Whilst she and he were well into the high from the mushrooms, you stayed out of it. The biking, the hiking, the skiing and the racquet ball are all THEIR activities.

He will miss her presence in his life, no doubt about that.

 

Forget about all this "my husband doesn't lie" stuff, because it is very obvious that he does.

 

I know you are desperate to stay with him - lovely "architect" designed house, and I am sure all the trappings, and a husband in a high status job.

You have gained insight into what he is really capable of, do not be the "idiot" wife at home, that will believe anything he tells her.

Be very careful here.

[Try]

He will miss her presence in his life, no doubt about that.

 

Forget about all this "my husband doesn't lie" stuff, because it is very obvious that he does.

 

I know you are desperate to stay with him - lovely "architect" designed house, and I am sure all the trappings, and a husband in a high status job.

You have gained insight into what he is really capable of, do not be the "idiot" wife at home, that will believe anything he tells her.

Be very careful here.

@OP: Read this part again and again, because it is spot on. If you want to be very careful, do not be the "idiot" that lets this person back into your husband and your life ever again. And BTW, the mushrooms had nothing to do with them cheating. They may have taken mushrooms when they cheated, but they were not on the drug when they planned to take the mushrooms with them as they scheduled their cheating hikes and bikes rides.

[whichwayisup]

The fear comes from inside me. After a lot of soul searching, I realize that I'm afraid that if I represent myself when my needs don't match the people that I love, that they will dislike me or reject me. Particularly if I ask someone to make a sacrifice.

 

Because the A has shaken me to the core, I realize that I have to change this about myself to survive the aftermath. Yesterday, I talked to my H. I told him that from where I stand right now, it seems hard if not impossible to ever reconcile with my friend. It told him I didn't know how long, if ever, until I'd feel safe about them resuming a friendship.

I know he's more optimistic about it, but he said that he was committed to me, and that he would remain so even if it meant ending the friendship with her permanently.

 

This lifted a huge weight off of me. I feel now that I can take as much time as I need before trying to talk to her. And the talks don't have to lead to reconciliation.

 

Has he been in contact with her? Are they still friends? NO WAY should he continue a friendship with her, regardless! She is poison to your marriage and always will be.

[Lois_Griffin]

I actually chose to create a profile here just so I could post in this thread.

 

I'm extremely surprised that you believe your husband when he claims the affair wasn't physical. As a general rule, when two adults are telling each other they're in love and spending time alone together, it's not to play racquetball or to sit and moon gaze - much as your husband wants you to believe. They're middle-aged ADULTS, not 13 year old virginal kids.

 

Secondly, I hate to say it, but you sound like literally every wife whose ever been cheated on and is too naïve to realize how much cheaters REALLY lie. If you spend some time reading on other infidelity sites, you'll get a much better idea of how much lying, manipulation, and deceit is really perpetrated on betrayed spouses. I guarantee you your head will explode after reading for an hour.

 

Third, just because he gave you a watered-down confession - because you chose to sleep on the couch for the first time in your 33 year marriage - doesn't make him a saint, and it certainly doesn't mean the story he peddled that night to you was the honest truth. You were suspicious because you heard him talking to her so he came out and gave you a watered-down version of their affair because he knew that YOU knew something was up. He also knew he had to tell you something so he gave the PG version, is all.

 

Lying cheaters will swear on their children's lives, their parent's lives and their own lives that they've told you the truth and will STILL be lying right through their teeth to you.

 

Something tells me this lady's betrayed husband either wasn't told at all or was given the same watered down innocent version that you were given. Why else would he still be your husband's best buddy and talk to him several times a week? I dare say if the guy knew the truth about these two, he'd probably come by your house and put your husband's head right through a brick wall. And he'd deserve it.

 

Both you and that women's husband are being played for complete fools. And the audacity of your husband to sink to an all-time low and actually think it's fine for you all to be friends again is the epitome of disrespect. Could he devalue you any MORE by thinking there's nothing wrong with bringing his prior affair partner back around for you all to play Scrabble on Saturday nights? Or is he planning more mushroom blow-outs and it just isn't the same without her there so he can serenade her? Isn't he a little old to be doing mushrooms? I'm glad this guy isn't my doctor, I'll tell you that.

 

Your passivity has gotten you completely snookered by this liar. If you choose to bring her back into your lives, don't think there won't be a whole lot of snickering behind your back because these two share a LOT more secrets than you and her husband were made privy to.

 

That's a guarantee.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Lois_Griffin

[elaine567]

I actually chose to create a profile here just so I could post in this thread.

 

I'm extremely surprised that you believe your husband when he claims the affair wasn't physical. As a general rule, when two adults are telling each other they're in love and spending time alone together, it's not to play racquetball or to sit and moon gaze - much as your husband wants you to believe. They're middle-aged ADULTS, not 13 year old virginal kids.

 

Secondly, I hate to say it, but you sound like literally every wife whose ever been cheated on and is too naïve to realize how much cheaters REALLY lie. If you spend some time reading on other infidelity sites, you'll get a much better idea of how much lying, manipulation, and deceit is really perpetrated on betrayed spouses. I guarantee you your head will explode after reading for an hour.

 

Third, just because he gave you a watered-down confession - because you chose to sleep on the couch for the first time in your 33 year marriage - doesn't make him a saint, and it certainly doesn't mean the story he peddled that night to you was the honest truth. You were suspicious because you heard him talking to her so he came out and gave you a watered-down version of their affair because he knew that YOU knew something was up. He also knew he had to tell you something so he gave the PG version, is all.

 

Lying cheaters will swear on their children's lives, their parent's lives and their own lives that they've told you the truth and will STILL be lying right through their teeth to you.

 

Something tells me this lady's betrayed husband either wasn't told at all or was given the same watered down innocent version that you were given. Why else would he still be your husband's best buddy and talk to him several times a week? I dare say if the guy knew the truth about these two, he'd probably come by your house and put your husband's head right through a brick wall. And he'd deserve it.

 

Both you and that women's husband are being played for complete fools. And the audacity of your husband to sink to an all-time low and actually think it's fine for you all to be friends again is the epitome of disrespect. Could he devalue you any MORE by thinking there's nothing wrong with bringing his prior affair partner back around for you all to play Scrabble on Saturday nights? Or is he planning more mushroom blow-outs and it just isn't the same without her there so he can serenade her? Isn't he a little old to be doing mushrooms? I'm glad this guy isn't my doctor, I'll tell you that.

 

Your passivity has gotten you completely snookered by this liar. If you choose to bring her back into your lives, don't think there won't be a whole lot of snickering behind your back because these two share a LOT more secrets than you and her husband were made privy to.

 

That's a guarantee.

 

^^^This^^^

YES.

 

Isn't he a little old to be doing mushrooms? I'm glad this guy isn't my doctor, I'll tell you that.

and ^^^ this^^^

[minimariah]

I think unfortunately for you, your friend sounds like she is a special person with varied interests - she is empathetic and a good listener too.

She and your husband have interests in common and she has an attitude that actually merges well with your husband.

Whilst she and he were well into the high from the mushrooms, you stayed out of it. The biking, the hiking, the skiing and the racquet ball are all THEIR activities.

He will miss her presence in his life, no doubt about that.

 

Forget about all this "my husband doesn't lie" stuff, because it is very obvious that he does.

 

I know you are desperate to stay with him - lovely "architect" designed house, and I am sure all the trappings, and a husband in a high status job.

You have gained insight into what he is really capable of, do not be the "idiot" wife at home, that will believe anything he tells her.

Be very careful here.

 

this is a fantastic post. OP - read this. do NOT underestimate the importance of this A & your H's feelings for your friend just because he had decided to stay with you. be careful, trust your gut. be prepared for the worst scenario.

 

like the great Maya Angelou said - when someone shows you who they are, believe them. keep that in mind.

[Clarence_Boddicker]

You're married to your husband & if I read it right they didn't have sex, so I can somewhat understand not divorcing him. Your "friend" is horrible for what she did. She knows no boundaries. You can forgive her, but if I were you I'd never trust her nor wish to ever speak to her again.

[aliveagain]

I tend to be rather direct, they fell in love. Why would you tempt fate again by allowing someone that professed to being your friend than almost steals your husband or at least his heart from you back in your life? Affair partners can never be friends, you can forgive them but remember, these people will lie and deceive you to get what they want because they are selfish and don't honour boundaries. Small town or not is that all you have to choose from for friends?

 

Again, why would you want to be friends with the only woman your husband believed worthy enough to risk your marriage for?

[wordster]

you were right to ferret out every detail...otherwise some time in the future...maybe 10 years from now, you will be wondering about it

 

 

I must have missed the part about the shrooms! Uh...that actually could explain what happened. he might have had some psychotropic experience where he saw her as some luminous being soul mate or something, and some sort of odd bond was formed. Under those really unusual circumstances, it actually IS possible he did not have sex with her, just some weird intense EA. that is a good thing.

 

 

The trouble with shrooms or acid....they can be life changing experiences, especially if your soul is weak and can not handle it. So is the man who came back the same man you married??? OR did he expand his consciousness and come back a potentially better man and husband? that is what you need to figure out.

 

 

and lay off the shrooms! sounds like he may not be able to handle them. or at least read some Carlos Castaneda or something.

 

Yes, they're powerful and can be life changing.

 

He mostly takes mushrooms with his guy friends. The H of my friend has been a partner in these adventures for years. My friend just started joining the gatherings two years ago.

 

My H was into psychedelics starting in HS and through college. I met him when he was between college and graduate school. Since I wasn't into them, he stopped for the first 15-20 year we were together. I have tried them a few times, but am not into them.

 

He also does Ayahuasca ceremonies. Except for falling in love with my friend, it seems that good things and insights come from these ceremonies.

 

Right after D-Day he agreed not to take mushroom with her ever again.

[wordster]

I tend to be rather direct, they fell in love. Why would you tempt fate again by allowing someone that professed to being your friend than almost steals your husband or at least his heart from you back in your life? Affair partners can never be friends, you can forgive them but remember, these people will lie and deceive you to get what they want because they are selfish and don't honour boundaries. Small town or not is that all you have to choose from for friends?

 

Again, why would you want to be friends with the only woman your husband believed worthy enough to risk your marriage for?

 

I have been spending a lot of time with other friends since this happened. Though it makes me sad to lose my friend, I am OK with it.

 

My H has agreed to NC indefinitely. For now, I'm just going to focus on myself and our marriage. When all that feels truly solid, I'll decide the next step.

 

At some point, I'd like to talk to my friend so that I can be calmer about accidental meet ups.

 

From where I stand now, I don't want a friendship with her. If you read the whole thread, you'll see that I have been reflecting on all that has been said. I have realized that my motives for trying to work things out with her were wrong.

 

If I feel a genuine urge to try to work things out with her sometime in the future, I still may do it. It would require major transformations on her part. I'm not that optimistic that she can change that much.

 

Even if I work things out with her, doesn't mean I'll say she can have a friendship with my H again. There may come a time when I'm okay with them being at the same party. I can't imagine a time when I'll be okay with them going on a bike ride together.

[wordster]

I think unfortunately for you, your friend sounds like she is a special person with varied interests - she is empathetic and a good listener too.

She and your husband have interests in common and she has an attitude that actually merges well with your husband.

Whilst she and he were well into the high from the mushrooms, you stayed out of it. The biking, the hiking, the skiing and the racquet ball are all THEIR activities.

He will miss her presence in his life, no doubt about that.

 

Forget about all this "my husband doesn't lie" stuff, because it is very obvious that he does.

 

I know you are desperate to stay with him - lovely "architect" designed house, and I am sure all the trappings, and a husband in a high status job.

You have gained insight into what he is really capable of, do not be the "idiot" wife at home, that will believe anything he tells her.

Be very careful here.

 

Yes, they get along well and have fun together. Unfortunately they blew it by having the A. Now they cannot go back to what they had before.

 

I think my H felt very uncomfortable lying to me. He understands that if it happens again, our marriage is over. I understand that is no guarantee.

 

I'm not desperate to stay with him.

 

The house (designed by him not an architect) or the high status job don't motivate me to stay. Status is crap. My closes friends clean houses, teach, or are artists. I don't hang out with the doctors or their wives. When I met my H, he was going to be a boat builder. I fell in love with HIM, not his potential income.

 

I'm the opposite of a material girl. I shop at Target, TJ Maxx, thrift stores. My H's job is super high stress (ER) and there's always the potential of him burning out and quitting at any moment. I'm always encouraging him to retire, so I don't want to be in debt. My car is 18 years old. My favorite possessions are tiny, inexpensive curios. I don't own diamonds and gold.

 

I would much rather live in a small, crappy apartment alone than live a lie.

 

I want to stay with my H because I love him and enjoy his company. We play. He makes me laugh. We have thousands of good memories together. We both love to travel.

 

After D-Day I told him that I didn't want to stay with him if he wanted to go. I have given him many opportunities to leave since then. I said we would have to separate if he couldn't agree to NC. I'm not afraid to divorce. I won't take him to the cleaners. I believe in mediated divorces, not those run by greedy lawyers.

[wordster]

I actually chose to create a profile here just so I could post in this thread.

 

I'm extremely surprised that you believe your husband when he claims the affair wasn't physical. As a general rule, when two adults are telling each other they're in love and spending time alone together, it's not to play racquetball or to sit and moon gaze - much as your husband wants you to believe. They're middle-aged ADULTS, not 13 year old virginal kids.

 

Secondly, I hate to say it, but you sound like literally every wife whose ever been cheated on and is too naïve to realize how much cheaters REALLY lie. If you spend some time reading on other infidelity sites, you'll get a much better idea of how much lying, manipulation, and deceit is really perpetrated on betrayed spouses. I guarantee you your head will explode after reading for an hour.

 

Third, just because he gave you a watered-down confession - because you chose to sleep on the couch for the first time in your 33 year marriage - doesn't make him a saint, and it certainly doesn't mean the story he peddled that night to you was the honest truth. You were suspicious because you heard him talking to her so he came out and gave you a watered-down version of their affair because he knew that YOU knew something was up. He also knew he had to tell you something so he gave the PG version, is all.

 

Lying cheaters will swear on their children's lives, their parent's lives and their own lives that they've told you the truth and will STILL be lying right through their teeth to you.

 

Something tells me this lady's betrayed husband either wasn't told at all or was given the same watered down innocent version that you were given. Why else would he still be your husband's best buddy and talk to him several times a week? I dare say if the guy knew the truth about these two, he'd probably come by your house and put your husband's head right through a brick wall. And he'd deserve it.

 

Both you and that women's husband are being played for complete fools. And the audacity of your husband to sink to an all-time low and actually think it's fine for you all to be friends again is the epitome of disrespect. Could he devalue you any MORE by thinking there's nothing wrong with bringing his prior affair partner back around for you all to play Scrabble on Saturday nights? Or is he planning more mushroom blow-outs and it just isn't the same without her there so he can serenade her? Isn't he a little old to be doing mushrooms? I'm glad this guy isn't my doctor, I'll tell you that.

 

Your passivity has gotten you completely snookered by this liar. If you choose to bring her back into your lives, don't think there won't be a whole lot of snickering behind your back because these two share a LOT more secrets than you and her husband were made privy to.

 

That's a guarantee.

 

Thank you for creating a profile just to post here. I appreciate that you think I'm naive.

 

I don't think you have read the entire thread, though. For instance, I've written several times about the discovery period which lasted for over a month. I don't think he's a saint for telling me the truth, but it did help to rebuild trust, as Shirley Glass says in her book.

 

My H and I have known each other for 33 years. This is the first time he has had an A or lied to me.

 

Of course, you can say that he's had dozens of A's, and I just never found out about them because he's such a good liar. If he is a good liar, he's such a good liar that I've never noticed him lying about other things. That seems unlikely to me.

 

If my H has lied to me, and really did have a PA, that's on his conscience. If he starts up again with her or has another A, I will figure it out eventually. That will be the end of our marriage.

 

I can't live with someone that lies to me.

 

But I also believe that people can make a mistake a learn from it. If he can't on this first try, then our marriage is doomed.

 

That said, I certainly see more clearly after reading and considering each comment here, how risky it is to allow my H and my friend to have a friendship again. I will continue to ask for NC until I have reason to believe otherwise.

 

You're right about my friend's H. He doesn't know any of the details and has chosen not to to know them.

 

Also, if you'd read the whole thread, you'd know that since starting it and getting feedback, I have changed my thinking on this. My H and I talked about what has been said here. He is no longer pushing to go back to the way things are before. He has accepted that NC is for however long I need it. Possibly forever. I also said that I don't feel optimistic about re-establishing a friendship with my friend. If that's the case, I wouldn't want him to be friends with her either. He accepted that, too.

[Try]

Right after D-Day he agreed not to take mushroom with her ever again.

That is bull. Not taking "mushroom with her ever again", would not be an issue if he was committed to doing right by you, as he would agree on his own to never see or talk to her again. This also shows that he is falsely blaming his cheating on mushrooms, when in fact he was not stoned on mushrooms when he planned his meeting with her where they both knew that they were going to take mushrooms and cheat.

 

You need to do the following right now:

1) Tell your husband that he needs to agree to full no contact (NC) with his affair partner forever without complaint, or trying to guilt trip you. If they bump into each other, he needs to agree to walk away, end of story.

2) To confirm NC, tell your husband that he needs to agree to full transparency without complaint, which includes but is not limited to all passwords and access to all computers and phones. Most spouses such transparency now even without cheating being an issue.

3) Without telling your husband or his affair partner (AP), you need to discuss in person and in private the cheating with the AP's husband. He has a right to know what you know, and you have a right to know what the AP's husband knows.

 

Based on the weak way that you are handling this now, it is unlikely that this will be the end of it. Now that your husband has seen that you will rug sweep, he will be tempted to cheat again. If not with this current AP, then with another.

[wordster]

Originally Posted by Lois_Griffin

Isn't he a little old to be doing mushrooms? I'm glad this guy isn't my doctor, I'll tell you that.

 

 

On an entirely different note, being a doctor is not all that great. In general, doctors have high rates of suicide and drug addiction.

 

ER doctors work nights, weekends, and holidays. My H has missed many a Christmas morning with me and the kids. We've learned how to be flexible about celebrations.

 

He helps drunks and drug addicts and people with mental illness all the time. He has been attacked by patients. In his twenty-five year career, two ER doctors he knew well have shot themselves.

 

Watching the lives of other doctors, I say my H has come through relatively unscathed. He chooses to work fewer hours than most, which means less income, but also more time with his kids. He is not any alcoholic, nor addicted to anything except for Ambien.

 

He does not play God or throw his weight around because of his "status." He helps a lot of friends that have no health insurance, on the side. We've had blood on our kitchen table on many occasions. He'll even help people with goat issues.

 

He has a reputation for really listening to people, and showing empathy. Sometimes, when he comes home from work and tells me a story, he cries. He's smart and daring, and has saved many lives by thinking outside the box.

 

So, no, you would be lucky to have him as your doctor.

 

When my sons said they didn't want to be doctors (after seeing how stressed out their dad gets), I was grateful.

[merrmeade]

I never did write about the similarities in my (ex)relationship with my (ex)sister-in-law, the OW. I'll have to just say I'm going to write about our relationship. To explain the context, certain things still have to be explained.

 

Similarities were that I felt quite close to her before discovering she'd been hiding so much from me. Even though she was my brother's wife (he's since died), I'd been traveling a lot for several years and my friends were small in number. She was important to me and I thought I was loved by her in a warm, deep, strong family way. She'd been close to my mother and had advised her. I only saw her that way and had no idea of the frequency of her contact with my husband, much less the nature of it.

 

I discovered that they meant and were able to communicate to each other much, much more than I ever had a clue about. Later, when I'd pieced together the story of their affair through emails, phone records and texts, I understood that they were closer than my husband and I were at that time and shared everything. They talked constantly - like best friends - and that was how she characterized their relationship when my grown son, living with his dad at her house while she paid them to remodel it, asked her about it. He said she told him that my H was one of her best friends though they were actually much closer.

 

The nature of their closeness was similar to that of your friend and H because, well, that's what an EA is: an unencumbered man and woman discovering they can flirt, tease, joke, flatter (be flattered), feel good about helping (be helped), and generally having a no-demands relationship with someone other than their spouse and pretend that it's fine, sort of a modern friendship.

 

I confronted her first about my suspicions and this idea was exactly what she expressed — that her mother modeled this behavior (having men friends) and mine didn't and that's why she and H had to hide their closeness from me - because I wouldn't understand. After a few weeks of trickle truth from my H, however, I learned that their relationship definitely had become PA, and he was unequivocal that she knew "it was wrong." Yet, I think now that they actually were processing differently. He said they'd regretted when it did become PA and tried to avoid it because (a) they felt guilty and (b) they felt it would destroy their friendship.

 

After Dday, my SIL/OW did not disclose to her H, just as yours did not to hers. In my SIL's case, it was a family decision (right or wrong — I'm not sure any more) because my brother was paralyzed from a stroke and it seemed more cruel than liberating to do that to him. This is very important because it means they never had to "face the music" or live with the pain, fallout, ups and downs, emotional and psychological changes that a betrayed spouse goes through while coming to terms with an affair.

 

I think if they don't see, read about, go to counseling to understand that phenomenon that they can only understand it superficially, if at all. You see this all the time on LS with the OW or OM posts. Whether it's the OW/M or the WH/W, they learn and change only insofaras the consequences have made them. In other words, if they got away with the A, didn't get exposed or even caught, there is not much thought or depth to their understanding about the repercussions of their actions on others. Even the best of them who really try, will only spend so much time and imagination thinking about something they simply don't have to think about. The sooner we stop asking the WS to talk about the affair or their actions, the sooner they stop thinking about it. After all, how pleasant could it be meditating on themselves as cads and worms. So as they stop thinking about it, they let themselves off the hook and move on to other things. Those who do not witness BS wretchedness first-hand quickly move to impatience, judgment and unrealistic expectations. It makes them feel better for one thing. My SIL was like this.

 

The ways that my SIL responded I now realize were not so bizarre because she had only her own feelings to deal with. She was never that sorry, even told me once that it (the A) was fun. She knew she had to apologize and sent a 3-line note, but, as soon as we talked again, she became volatile and accusatory again. This was a very difficult and traumatic time for me and why I was quite fearful for you in the beginning. I realize now that my SIL's understanding of my fragility was nil and, therefore, she had no clue when she was being abusive. Furthermore, she had made me culpable in her mind for the situation for having left my H alone and vulnerable. So she was angry at me. Her feelings were all over the place similar to my H's and mine. She was partly angry, guilty, sad, and ashamed all at the same time but without ANY understanding whatsoever of the extent to which I'd been traumatized.

 

She tried to reconnect with me a couple of times through email. She sent an "I-remember-your-mother-so-fondly" note on the anniversary of my mother's death. She wrote that she was sure that she and I would laugh and cry together again as friends and sisters. I even realized finally with complete bewilderment that she actually had planned to extend her friendship to me as a way of making up for what she'd done, for having cheated with my husband. She'd remarked in pity that I didn't have as many friends as she did and so this was going to be her gift to me.

 

Well, this idea was the most terrifying, nauseating and threatening possibility of reality I could imagine. Please tar and feather me instead. The few exchanges we'd had revealed a colossal lack of understanding that had ripped open my raw wounds and made the shock and grief I was reeling under reverberate a thousandfold. If this hand of friendship was going to pop up unexpectedly for the rest of my life, then I was doomed to a life of PTSD.

 

With you, I saw in the beginning that you haven't been hurt by this friend yet. You sort of alluded to the possibility that she doesn't quite get it, but you hadn't interacted with her enough to know what it would be like to actually renew the connection. You may recall, my first or second post was shocked and tried to warn you.

 

In my situation, my SIL continued - it was very clear - to hold out for the time and place when we would be able to reunite. She texted me when my uncle died that I was welcome to stay at her house for the funeral. (I didn't, couldn't answer.) The really sick part is that I know she always planned in the back of her mind for it to be at my brother's death. She continued to contact me on occasion about family matters as needed in cheerful, informative emails or texts — always as if nothing had happened, as if there was no reason for us not to have normal, friendly communications.

 

And there you have it. At least your friend realizes that there has to be some processing before you could even consider getting together again; she offered to do counseling with you. My SIL seemed to have no clue — or perhaps was refusing to acknowledge — that there was any reason for us to be other than the same way she was with everyone else. And THAT is what insulted and disrespected me the most. THAT glib dismissal of our past so easily with no nod or acknowledgement of what I'd gone through or what it means to me was the most hurtful thing she ever did. She could never make up for it.

 

The end of my story (and it makes me VERY happy to call it an end) was, in fact, after the death of my brother, when the opposite happened from what she expected. I was able to ignore and get away from her with a snub that I could tell and feel was the unforgivable ultimate anti-social disgrace for her blue blood ego. Good riddance!

 

So the answer to your very early question (which I think you've now answered for yourself) about whether you and your friend could possibly have a future together after doing some kind of counseling together is still the same: Why do you need to put yourself through that?

 

But I do have this to add (SO sorry it's so long) to the hypothetical off-chance that you actually try this: You could do it IF -

 

- she is educated about your experience as a BS and shows sincere regret and empathy for ALL of your most important injuries

 

- she is educated about herself as a needy OW or whatever she is and all the factors in her past and present that allowed her to carry out all the selfish, thoughtless acts for her own pleasure and fulfillment, which would ultimately destroy you, her supposed friend, and she SHOWS and can EXPRESS her understanding to you about how she could be so callous

 

- she is clear about WHY it's so important to her to be your friend, ie, is it because of her guilt? her wish to stay close to you and your H? is it selfishness still or a genuine wish to grow and be better?

 

- she understands that she will most likely never interact with your H again and ALL decisions about how much and how you and she interact are yours alone

 

That would be my advice.

Edited May 21, 2015 by merrmeade