So sad - sexless marriage

[dichotomy]

How do you KNOW he is not using porn or cheating? You got software tracking on his computer ? you checking into things for cheating?

 

Look when ever there is notable drop - a decline - there is cause for deep investigation. It could be simply loss of interest, or emotional or psychological or medical, but you need to for sure eliminate outside things.

 

Also did you SEE the medical test results for his T - or did he tell you they were "fine".

Edited April 8, 2015 by dichotomy

[pteromom]

Thank you for your perspective on this, pteromom. I feel strongly that low drive people should say upfront that they aren't going to work on it.

 

You don't know that until you are in the situation and the emotions become involved in it. If you had asked me before, I would have said I didn't mind doing it every day even if I didn't need it. But time and the patterns of a relationship have a way of changing the way you feel.

 

My h has been saying for 2 years that we'd get back to sex more often, but it never materializes.

 

He's not going to initiate, since he is an avoider. Maybe you could put it on the calendar. Every Saturday night (or every other Saturday night), it's on. That way he just knows to expect it, and also knows you won't bug him about it the rest of the week - just taking that pressure of always feeling like he is disappointing you off may be enough to help him relax.

 

The only reason I kept a calender in the first place is because he kept saying that it's not as infrequent as I thought. I showed it to him last night because he looked me straight in the face and told me I was exaggerating when I told him we only had sex 6 times last year. I'm not trying to keeps score, but had to because he keeps gaslighting me on the topic and I end up feeling crazy and doubting my own needs and memory.

 

I understand that.

 

No, coffee isn't sex. Coffee isn't an important part of a marriage. Coffee doesn't bring you together and bond you as a couple. No spouse, that I've ever heard of, turned to the other and said, "you know, I don't think I ever want coffee again. I've had all the coffee I care to drink in life." And if they did, it probably wouldn't be a marriage ending issue.

 

Hahah. True. But for some of us, sex isn't especially bonding - we like to bond in other ways. But when you have a partner who wants it, you have to make an effort. It's not a need they can fill on their own, so you gotta try (or allow them to go elsewhere for it.)

 

I am willing to compromise. I know it will probably never be twice a week again. Twice a month would be very nice for me, once per month is a little low, but peppered with a few twice a months here and there, that might work, too. Did I mention we don't have any kids and aren't planning to? There's really very little in the way of excuses.

 

Yeah, there is no excuse for not being able to take a little time for you now and then. You aren't asking for a lot.

[pteromom]

Sorry, but for most low drive people, they don't want to admit there is a problem because to them, it ISN'T a problem.

 

But if my partner is unhappy, it IS a problem.

[pteromom]

How do you KNOW he is not using porn or cheating?

 

It is possible.

 

It's also possible that he is gay, or has some strange fetish he is afraid to bring up to you.

 

I've seen all of these situations.

[Diezel]

But if my partner is unhappy, it IS a problem.

 

That's my point.

[sosadaboutus]

You don't know that until you are in the situation and the emotions become involved in it. If you had asked me before, I would have said I didn't mind doing it every day even if I didn't need it. But time and the patterns of a relationship have a way of changing the way you feel.

 

And when it changes for the low-desire spouse, it's still a good time to honest about it. Don't say "I'll work on it", if that's not going to happen. It's cruel to tell the higher desire spouse that it's important to you, when it's actually not.

 

 

He's not going to initiate, since he is an avoider. Maybe you could put it on the calendar. Every Saturday night (or every other Saturday night), it's on. That way he just knows to expect it, and also knows you won't bug him about it the rest of the week - just taking that pressure of always feeling like he is disappointing you off may be enough to help him relax.

 

Tried that, it's often a rain check taken at the scheduled time.

 

 

Hahah. True. But for some of us, sex isn't especially bonding - we like to bond in other ways. But when you have a partner who wants it, you have to make an effort. It's not a need they can fill on their own, so you gotta try (or allow them to go elsewhere for it.)

 

Another good reason for honesty. If you don't find it especially bonding, why lead on a person who does? Even if it's something that develops over time, honesty would be better.

 

 

Yeah, there is no excuse for not being able to take a little time for you now and then. You aren't asking for a lot.

 

No, I'm not. I'm actually a fairly low drive person myself, compared to many. But this level makes me feel like I'm married to a platonic roommate.

[redtail]

I just have no desire for sex. Love and romance do not = sexual desire for me.

...

A new relationship is always going to make someone hornier - it's all exciting and new. But a person always goes back to who they are.

That was very honest of you. If I may, I'd like to ask you to explain further, suppose the person married to this "no desire" person got the feeling the two of them were a match during this "new relationship hornyness" only to discover after marriage he/she faded to no desire. Isn't that disingenuous?

[sosadaboutus]

How do you KNOW he is not using porn or cheating? You got software tracking on his computer ? you checking into things for cheating?

 

Look when ever there is notable drop - a decline - there is cause for deep investigation. It could be simply loss of interest, or emotional or psychological or medical, but you need to for sure eliminate outside things.

 

Also did you SEE the medical test results for his T - or did he tell you they were "fine".

 

I don't have tracking on his computer, but I am checking things. I have access to his phone and FB account and sometimes his work computer, which is his only computer besides the one we share.

 

I was married to a porn addict for 14 years previously, so I know where to look, and that everything leaves a trail, even if he tries to erase it. Most of all, I know the other behaviors, besides low desire. I haven't found one iota of suspicious content that indicates porn or an affair.

 

My current h has very little unaccounted for time. Sure, if he really wanted to, he could figure it out, but we spend almost 24/7 together doing fun stuff (except sex), so it would be difficult, but not impossible, for him to conduct these extracurricular activities. It's still a possibility I'm keeping an eye out for, but my suspicion is quite low.

 

That's the hell of it for me, we spend so much time together, and it's great, but there's very little sex, though there's plenty of time and opportunity for it.

[Diezel]

If I may, I'd like to ask you to explain further, suppose the person married to this "no desire" person got the feeling the two of them were a match during this "new relationship hornyness" only to discover after marriage he/she faded to no desire. Isn't that disingenuous?

 

It's called "bait-and-switch".

[sosadaboutus]

Also did you SEE the medical test results for his T - or did he tell you they were "fine".

 

Actually...no I didn't see the results. Yeah, that's been bugging me, actually.

[oldshirt]

 

Sex might be like too much coffee for the low drive partner. The lack of it feels like not enough food and water, emotionally speaking, for the higher need person.

 

That's a good way to put it. I could never exist with someone who views sexuality as an annoyance and burden.

 

It is right up there immediately behind oxygen, water, food and sleep for me. I couldn't be with someone that didn't also view it as a basic need.

 

That's why I'm so perplexed at these people that go years without it. At the 6 month mark I'd be working with an attorney for the most fair and amicable divorce I could work out.

 

Why torture both people by putting each of them through the misery?

[pteromom]

Tried that, it's often a rain check taken at the scheduled time.

 

Can you make rain checks very specific... if he says NO on Saturday, then it moves to Sunday? That way you aren't waiting long, and he doesn't just get out of it.

 

But of course, the bigger problem is that he wants so badly to get out of it that he can't give it up every week or two.

 

Another good reason for honesty. If you don't find it especially bonding, why lead on a person who does? Even if it's something that develops over time, honesty would be better.

 

It's not leading on. Well, not for me. But this isn't about me. Do you feel your husband led you on - that he said one thing and is giving you something completely different?

 

You aren't asking for a lot here. An evening of his time once or twice a month is not a lot to ask at all. I feel for you that he can't be bothered to even do that much for you.

 

If he won't work on the problem, I don't know what you are supposed to do. Have you talked to him about therapy at all?

[sosadaboutus]

Can you make rain checks very specific... if he says NO on Saturday, then it moves to Sunday? That way you aren't waiting long, and he doesn't just get out of it.

 

But of course, the bigger problem is that he wants so badly to get out of it that he can't give it up every week or two.

 

 

 

It's not leading on. Well, not for me. But this isn't about me. Do you feel your husband led you on - that he said one thing and is giving you something completely different?

 

You aren't asking for a lot here. An evening of his time once or twice a month is not a lot to ask at all. I feel for you that he can't be bothered to even do that much for you.

 

If he won't work on the problem, I don't know what you are supposed to do. Have you talked to him about therapy at all?

 

Yeah, I feel that he has and does lead me on. He says one thing and does another. Actions speak louder than words.

 

We've talked about therapy, which he really hates. He had a bad experience with a therapist that was treating an ex-gf. The therapist sounded like a quack to me, and I told him so, and that not all therapists are like that.

 

In our last conversation, he begrudgingly agreed to therapy. I guess I will just see if he follows through with it.

[pteromom]

That was very honest of you. If I may, I'd like to ask you to explain further, suppose the person married to this "no desire" person got the feeling the two of them were a match during this "new relationship hornyness" only to discover after marriage he/she faded to no desire. Isn't that disingenuous?

 

It can be. But it doesn't have to be. I am sure there are women (and men) out there who fake being more into it than they are to win a partner.

 

But the sex and desire for it at the beginning can also be very honest. You never know how a relationship will be until you are in it.

 

And there is a difference between fading to NO desire, and fading to NORMAL (for each individual person) desire. So if you start out at wanting it every day, and it fades to a "normal" of once a week, it's only a problem if the other person DOESN'T fade to once a week, and feels sad that it didn't stay at every day. It's how the couple negotiates that difference which will lead to more or less sex.

 

An "every week or two" person can be just as stressed out by trying to maintain every day as an "every day" person can be stressed out by waiting a week or two.

 

A relationship where both people are always on the same page is actually pretty rare. But both people being giving and kind and understanding goes a long way.

 

In OP's case, this is an extreme situation. And it's a problem without a solution since her husband won't work on it or even talk about it at all.

[oldshirt]

Actually...no I didn't see the results. Yeah, that's been bugging me, actually.

 

Sounds like he's done a whole lotta talking but not much doing here. You may want to actually see what the results actually are rather than taking his word they are 'fine.'

 

The thing about testosterone levels are there is going to be a "normal" range, and what is 'normal' to the medical community means that it is not indicative of a diseased state.

 

In other words the low end of normal means that he is not suffering from kind of pathology that effects his T level. It does not necessarily mean that he has enough to adequately support a healthy sex drive.

 

I personally do not no what Testosterone ranges are but for the sake of argument the 'normal' range is 10-20. If he has a current value of 10 or 11, his doctor will interpret that as meaning that no disease state exists with his testosterone and that he does not require medical intervention.

 

However he may actually need a level of 15 or more to maintain any semblance of a libido. So even though his level is technically 'normal' for a man his age, that doesn't automatically mean it is adequate for him.

 

(And again, I have no clue what the numbers should be, I was just using that as a conceptual example)

[sosadaboutus]

That's a good way to put it. I could never exist with someone who views sexuality as an annoyance and burden.

 

It is right up there immediately behind oxygen, water, food and sleep for me. I couldn't be with someone that didn't also view it as a basic need.

 

That's why I'm so perplexed at these people that go years without it. At the 6 month mark I'd be working with an attorney for the most fair and amicable divorce I could work out.

 

Why torture both people by putting each of them through the misery?

 

Totally. We haven't reached the 6 month mark, but 3 months of no sex is pretty common, 2 is average for us. That's what's so difficult for me in this situation, we have sex occasionally. So, I get my hopes up that it will continue more frequently, as we've discussed, and then it doesn't. False hope makes the heart sick. That might as well be my epitaph.

[sosadaboutus]

Sounds like he's done a whole lotta talking but not much doing here. You may want to actually see what the results actually are rather than taking his word they are 'fine.'

 

The thing about testosterone levels are there is going to be a "normal" range, and what is 'normal' to the medical community means that it is not indicative of a diseased state.

 

In other words the low end of normal means that he is not suffering from kind of pathology that effects his T level. It does not necessarily mean that he has enough to adequately support a healthy sex drive.

 

I personally do not no what Testosterone ranges are but for the sake of argument the 'normal' range is 10-20. If he has a current value of 10 or 11, his doctor will interpret that as meaning that no disease state exists with his testosterone and that he does not require medical intervention.

 

However he may actually need a level of 15 or more to maintain any semblance of a libido. So even though his level is technically 'normal' for a man his age, that doesn't automatically mean it is adequate for him.

 

(And again, I have no clue what the numbers should be, I was just using that as a conceptual example)

 

Very true. I have what's called "sub-clinical" hypothyroid. My thyroid levels are within "normal" range, but low enough that it causes symptoms for me. I'll see if I can get a straight answer out of him. He likely doesn't remember the number, but I'll see if he can call his doctor for it.

[oldshirt]

Totally. We haven't reached the 6 month mark, but 3 months of no sex is pretty common, 2 is average for us. That's what's so difficult for me in this situation, we have sex occasionally. So, I get my hopes up that it will continue more frequently, as we've discussed, and then it doesn't. False hope makes the heart sick. That might as well be my epitaph.

 

I understand your frustration completely and that does put you in a tough place. You can't really claim "no sex" because technically you are sexually active and he is not saying that he can't or won't try to accommodate you. He simply isn't doing it enough to satisfy you.

 

This may sound underhanded and like baiting your own divorce, but I'd say pick out a time frame that would be a deal breaker ie 6 months, a year.. whatever.

Mark it on a calender. And then do not actively initiate any sex for that time period. If he goes the 6 months without bringing up or initiating any contact, then you have your answer.

[sosadaboutus]

I'm so sorry OP. Believe me when I tell you...I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH!

 

I've been here and stayed with my ex husband for a total of 20 years (4 dating / 16 married)!!!

 

I got the same rejection and response that you're getting. Eventually we stopped having sex altogether which lasted for more than 6 years (I literally stopped counting after 6)

 

I've written about my experience in numerous threads relating to sexless marriages on here so feel free to peruse if you want more details.

 

Unfortunately I don't have any good news to share with you.

 

The fact that he tells you that he loves you and is attracted to you and is in denial about how infrequent you're actually having sex is classic. Then to begrudgingly agree to therapy is even more classic.

 

For men, this solution should be an EASY one! They created these amazing blue pills called Viagra (or similar brands)...ever heard of them? These babies all but remove the big pink elephant in the room and have helped millions of men in the process. Have you asked him about taking such drugs? Do you think he'd consider it?

 

My ex didn't think he needed them and didn't want to entertain the idea which left us at a complete deadlock. How can someone you're supposed to love and cherish and be attracted to NOT want to find a way to make it work ESPECIALLY if there is a way to make it work?! Right???

 

I am continually AMAZED at how many couples are in these kinds of marriages and relationships where one partner chooses for the both of them how things will be sexually. Typically it's the men who complain they're not getting enough sex but there is an emerging sector of women who find themselves in this position more and more.

 

Again, I don't have answers. All I can tell you is that I loved my husband. I know he loved me deeply as well. We had a family and we wanted to stay married but after countless years of going without it became impossible for that kind of hurt and rejection not to manifest into anger and resentment. And when that happens, it poisons every other aspect of one's life and marriage. It becomes toxic.

 

After 20 years I found the courage and asked for a separation. And I've never regretted it.

 

The only way this kind of relationship works is one of two ways; (1) if he actively participates in finding and implementing ways to improve your sex life and in turn your relationship OR (2) you have to make peace with your situation as is. Period. Continually pressuring him will get you absolutely no where and will only make things worse.

 

I'm sorry my friend. Hugs to you.

 

Thanks, Michelle. That's what I'm hoping for, active participation in improving our sexlife. If not, he really leaves me no other choice but to consider leaving. I want a lover and friend, not just a friend and roommate.

[autumnnight]

I'll tell you the point I got to, sadaboutus

 

My H too had this whole if/then, parameters of asking, mental and practical gymnastics crap I was supposed to be willing to do to get HIM to do what - no offense - what any "no0rmal" man would be chomping at the bit to do.

 

I finally got to the point where I sad:

 

I shouldn't HAVE to be the one to keep the schedule, make a list of raincheck rules, give the right order of cues, etc etc ad nauseum.

 

When I realized a neat closet, a dishless sink, and great presents were important to him, I took it upon MYSELF to make sure that got done consistently. Me having to jump through hoops and send him reinders like it's some doctor's appointment was ridiculous. I wasn't going to do it. Period. Because THAT is NOT how you meet your partner's need. You don't make them beg. YOU get off your ass and get proactive and do it.

[sosadaboutus]

I understand your frustration completely and that does put you in a tough place. You can't really claim "no sex" because technically you are sexually active and he is not saying that he can't or won't try to accommodate you. He simply isn't doing it enough to satisfy you.

 

This may sound underhanded and like baiting your own divorce, but I'd say pick out a time frame that would be a deal breaker ie 6 months, a year.. whatever.

Mark it on a calender. And then do not actively initiate any sex for that time period. If he goes the 6 months without bringing up or initiating any contact, then you have your answer.

 

He literally loses track of when we've been intimate. I asked him how long he thought it's been and he said a week! It had been a month at the time. Clinically, 10 times or less per year is considered a sexless marriage. And, no judgment for couples who have this level of sex-life and both are satisfied, then it's not a problem for them. But, I'm seriously climbing the walls at about week 5.

 

Yeah, I'm considering my boundaries. I'm thinking he has a year to work on this (or not). I'll be putting my financial ducks in a row, and making contingency plans, in the meantime. Writing that makes me sad.

[sosadaboutus]

I'll tell you the point I got to, sadaboutus

 

My H too had this whole if/then, parameters of asking, mental and practical gymnastics crap I was supposed to be willing to do to get HIM to do what - no offense - what any "no0rmal" man would be chomping at the bit to do.

 

I finally got to the point where I sad:

 

I shouldn't HAVE to be the one to keep the schedule, make a list of raincheck rules, give the right order of cues, etc etc ad nauseum.

 

When I realized a neat closet, a dishless sink, and great presents were important to him, I took it upon MYSELF to make sure that got done consistently. Me having to jump through hoops and send him reinders like it's some doctor's appointment was ridiculous. I wasn't going to do it. Period. Because THAT is NOT how you meet your partner's need. You don't make them beg. YOU get off your ass and get proactive and do it.

 

That's a good point, autumnnight. My husband is similar, he loves neatness and I'm continually working on meeting his needs on this front. I tend to be messy, but I make an effort to be neater, as I know it's important to him. For example, we just bought a new car, and he made it clear that it was important that the car stay neat. He mentioned the other day that he was so happy with how I've been keeping the car neat and thanked me for that. That made me feel good, as I've been actively working on this, as it makes him so happy. It seems silly to me, but then, it's not my need, it's his and he expressed it. I'm happy to work on his needs, I just want the same.

 

I don't know, maybe there's some other need that I've missed. I'll give it some thought.

 

I agree that I shouldn't have to jump through all these conditions just to get my needs met. I've asked him for this, it's well known to him, he needs to prioritize meeting me in the middle on this.

[autumnnight]

That's a good point, autumnnight. My husband is similar, he loves neatness and I'm continually working on meeting his needs on this front. I tend to be messy, but I make an effort to be neater, as I know it's important to him. For example, we just bought a new car, and he made it clear that it was important that the car stay neat. He mentioned the other day that he was so happy with how I've been keeping the car neat and thanked me for that. That made me feel good, as I've been actively working on this, as it makes him so happy. It seems silly to me, but then, it's not my need, it's his and he expressed it. I'm happy to work on his needs, I just want the same.

 

I don't know, maybe there's some other need that I've missed. I'll give it some thought.

 

I agree that I shouldn't have to jump through all these conditions just to get my needs met. I've asked him for this, it's well known to him, he needs to prioritize meeting me in the middle on this.

 

You just made my point. Does he have to make a calendar for you to remind you to clean your car? No, YOU proactively do it. Do you ask him for "rainchecks" to clean your car? No, you proactively do it consistently.

 

THAT is what he needs to be doing, not putting it back on you to beg for it.

[sosadaboutus]

You just made my point. Does he have to make a calendar for you to remind you to clean your car? No, YOU proactively do it. Do you ask him for "rainchecks" to clean your car? No, you proactively do it consistently.

 

THAT is what he needs to be doing, not putting it back on you to beg for it.

 

Exactly, he should actually be the one keeping a calendar, if that's what it takes for him to remember or finding some other way to be proactive in this area. It feels like he just doesn't care about my needs. Or, he's hoping they'll go away.

[oldshirt]

That's a good point, autumnnight. My husband is similar, he loves neatness and I'm continually working on meeting his needs on this front. I tend to be messy, but I make an effort to be neater, as I know it's important to him. For example, we just bought a new car, and he made it clear that it was important that the car stay neat. He mentioned the other day that he was so happy with how I've been keeping the car neat and thanked me for that. That made me feel good, as I've been actively working on this, as it makes him so happy. It seems silly to me, but then, it's not my need, it's his and he expressed it. I'm happy to work on his needs, I just want the same.

 

I don't know, maybe there's some other need that I've missed. I'll give it some thought.

 

I agree that I shouldn't have to jump through all these conditions just to get my needs met. I've asked him for this, it's well known to him, he needs to prioritize meeting me in the middle on this.

 

 

 

Did keeping the car neat make him horny? Did he see the shining, sparkling car and then pick you up, carry you into the bedroom and ravish you senseless??????