Irony of an Affair

[Poptart]

I think she already answered the question in a previous post. Essentially what the BS doesn't know won't hurt them is the mindset. It's a very stupid mindset that has destroyed a lot of lives, but people still continue to have it. It's one of the biggest reasons why cheaters don't confess to cheating. That and self preservation.

 

No, that actually doesn't answer the question I posed.

 

The question I posed assumes that no one will ever find out about it. Therefore assumes that BS won't know about it.

 

Why is it that some people will NOT do a wrong action even if it is never found out, just because it is wrong--but the cheater is able to tell themself it is OK to do the thing they already know is wrong? And it is wrong whether or not the BS finds out about it.

 

Remember this is posed to a person who cheated but admits that doing so was wrong, and she isn't saying that the reason it's wrong is because her husband found out about it. She admits that it's wrong for its own sake and even if he never found out.

 

So that means she knew it was wrong when she was doing it and she knew that even if her husband never found out it would still be wrong.

 

So what did she tell herself, in the moment, to make it OK for her to do it anyway?

[OverIt75]

But, even if no one else ever found out about it except you and the affair partner, why doesn't it bother you/the cheater enough not to do it? Isn't there something inside you, a little voice, saying "No I can't do this, this is wrong, this is not the person I really am"? Just wondering if you could provide some more insight on the thought process.

 

ETA: Your "conscience"? Where is the cheater's "conscience," the little voice inside that says "I won't do this even if I will never get caught, because it's wrong."

 

I think what every betrayed spouse is really after is trying to understand what is actually going on inside their spouse's head "in the moment" of the decision to cheat or to continue the affair and even assuming the cheater believes no one else could ever find out and there won't be any external consequences (such as in your case the job loss, conflict/w husband, and whatever else you're having to deal with right now.)

 

I am really going to try to answer this, as it happened to me anyway:

 

Everything started innocently - great working relationship, years-long friendship but had always been totally above-board. Not a hint of something else.

 

Our work required us to do a LOT together...one on one, every day. It was stressful, but success out of stress bonds people.

 

As a natural progression, I 'helped' him with some work issues. Emails and texts after that were about work, but peppered here and there with personal comments.

 

This evolved until one day, he confessed feelings for me. It is very sneaky. You don't realize what's happening until it's happened. I recall my conscience being very much intact in that moment. I was thinking to myself - this is bad, run away, stop it before it gets worse, run run run.

 

For whatever reason - I looked up to him, he was my mentor, didn't want to embarrass him, etc. - I had difficulty shutting it down. I was able to tell him no at first. And then over time, my wall eroded.

 

Each line we cross, we think - at least I haven't crossed the next one. I can still stop it. I can control this. But at the same time, it starts to feel good. This is where it gets really confusing and the mind starts to make excuses.

 

And then boom - line crossed. I think at this point, you either realize what you've done and get far, far away. Or your feelings are now wrapped up in it and you rationalize, justify...and on it goes.

 

Once you're in it - it's very hard to get out of. I always had moments of, what in the hell am I doing??? But it's like quicksand. Yes, you obviously feel good in the A, but the truth is, there is at least as much misery as happiness. Honestly, I think there is MORE misery than happiness. But by the time you've gotten here, it is hard to admit to yourself that you've compromised your entire life for absolutely nothing at all. So it becomes about 'love' because for many of us, that can be the only excuse to have done something so insane.

 

That's the rabbit hole, in a nutshell.

[jbrent890]

I think at that point, they just rationalize based off of feelings and emotions. This is why you constantly hear "it just happened", "it felt right", or "I got caught in the heat of the moment."

[Poptart]

I think at that point, they just rationalize based off of feelings and emotions. This is why you constantly hear "it just happened", "it felt right", or "I got caught in the heat of the moment."

 

...which MIGHT apply to a drunken, one night stand situation on an out of town business trip, followed by a heart felt confession to the betrayed spouse the next morning when you wake up from the hangover. MIGHT.

 

But does NOT apply to a prolonged "game of courtship" between the two affair partners over many weeks or months.

 

It is not a heat of the moment thing when the boss declares his attraction, you know immediately it is bad and you should run away, but let it continue, until the boss "erodes" your walls of resistance.

 

I am not asking what the post-affair rationalizations for the conduct might be. I am asking what was actually going through the cheater's head in the moment. She was not thinking "this is so impulsive." She was thinking "this is very bad." So if she knows it's "very bad" she had to have calculated what she thought was positive in having the affair that would counterbalance the "very bad."

 

That's what I would like to know. How does someone do something they know is "very bad," not in the moment, on impulse? What is the computation that actually happened inside their head? There has to be something going on inside the mind, not just irrational emotions. If it was just impulsive irrational emotions they would have ripped each others' clothes off then and there and that obviously didn't happen.

[Poptart]

For whatever reason - I looked up to him, he was my mentor, didn't want to embarrass him, etc. - I had difficulty shutting it down. I was able to tell him no at first. And then over time, my wall eroded.

 

That's what I am asking--what was your reason?

 

Saying "for whatever reason" is an evasion.

 

You give three possible reasons:

 

"I looked up to him"

 

"He was my mentor"

 

"didn't want to embarass him"

 

All three possible reasons you give relate in some way to your position as his subordinate employee. Not one of them talks about any physical or emotional attraction to your affair partner. You also said losing this job was a big hit to your career because you can't get a similar job in your same town.

 

Was your job so important to you that you felt you had no choice but to give in to your boss's inappropriate advances?

 

It sounds like that is what happened. If so you might have a good cause for a sexual harassment lawsuit.

[lovinDKT3]

Maybe your husband was working way too hard and maybe he was taking you for granted. Both observations might be completely correct. That's not the real issue.

 

The real issue is how you mentally jumped from "my husband works too hard" or "my husband is taking me for granted" to "It's ok for me to cheat on him."

 

How is that connection made? What is the thought process?

 

Some times you will read a fly over view of peoples stories. The road version is I asked him for many years to find another career that did have him travel so much. His refusing felt like rejection of me. It was a process involving a lot of anger and resentment.

 

Also my post was a mix of past and present. The truth is I used whatever I could to justify what I was doing.

[Poptart]

Some times you will read a fly over view of peoples stories. The road version is I asked him for many years to find another career that did have him travel so much. His refusing felt like rejection of me. It was a process involving a lot of anger and resentment.

 

Also my post was a mix of past and present. The truth is I used whatever I could to justify what I was doing.

 

I understand but you still haven't said what specifically you told yourself, in the moment, to justify having sex with another man.

 

Was it something like "He never listens to me, he's always travelling, I'll show him by having sex with another man, that will take him down a peg." Or something else? I mean what did you actually tell yourself?

 

Which brings up another interesting question, it seems like cheaters never want to resolve on the precise bullseye of the exact moment of the decision to cheat. I wonder why that is.

[BetrayedH]

I think it IS a matter of "irrational emotions." It's not a rational choice but an emotional one. It "feels" good to be the recipient of someone else's affections even if we rationally know we shouldn't indulge. Some keep the boundaries up. For others, each boundary crossing makes the next much easier to cross. Eventually, there's only one boundary left, we're deep into the rabbit hole already and yep, the clothes come flying off.

[Poptart]

I think it IS a matter of "irrational emotions." It's not a rational choice but an emotional one. It "feels" good to be the recipient of someone else's affections even if we rationally know we shouldn't indulge. Some keep the boundaries up. For others, each boundary crossing makes the next much easier to cross. Eventually, there's only one boundary left, we're deep into the rabbit hole already and yep, the clothes come flying off.

 

I disagree that it is irrational emotions since the actions taken by cheaters at least in the kinds of affair we have been talking about in this thread, are very coldly calculated and well-thought out. In hindsight as justification I agree the cheater might say "I was just being so irrational, I wasn't thinking straight."

 

But in the moment of their affairs, they are quite often thinking very straight and being very calculating and rational. They are making cold rational computations of risk vs. reward. They perceive little risk of getting caught or any consequences vs. the reward the affair gives them, and so, choose to have the affair, or to continue it.

 

Maybe this gradually going down the rabbit hole refers to trying it on little by little and realizing that no negative consequences are happening--you've successfully kept it under wraps--so just continue escalating it. That doesn't mean it's not coldly calculated. It means it's been very coldly calculated. You cheat "a little bit" because if you get caught you can explain the little bit away or have plausible deniability.

 

As the cheaters get away with more and more without getting caught, it's entirely rational for them to become bolder and bolder until it's a full fledged affair. But that careful gradualism is not suggestive of irrationality or impulsivity, but the opposite.

[OverIt75]

I think it IS a matter of "irrational emotions." It's not a rational choice but an emotional one. It "feels" good to be the recipient of someone else's affections even if we rationally know we shouldn't indulge. Some keep the boundaries up. For others, each boundary crossing makes the next much easier to cross. Eventually, there's only one boundary left, we're deep into the rabbit hole already and yep, the clothes come flying off.

 

Yep, this.

 

Poptart, maybe you don't think I'm answering you, but I am to the best of my ability. I honestly can't say I can pinpoint a decision 'in the moment'; rather a series of decisions that culminated in the moment. They are all irrational and build upon the one before it.

[Poptart]

Yep, this.

 

Poptart, maybe you don't think I'm answering you, but I am to the best of my ability. I honestly can't say I can pinpoint a decision 'in the moment'; rather a series of decisions that culminated in the moment. They are all irrational and build upon the one before it.

 

But in your case there is an answer since you actually kept journal entries. Why not just post the journal entry immediately before/after the first time you had sex with the OM?

[lovinDKT3]

I understand but you still haven't said what specifically you told yourself, in the moment, to justify having sex with another man.

 

Was it something like "He never listens to me, he's always travelling, I'll show him by having sex with another man, that will take him down a peg." Or something else? I mean what did you actually tell yourself?

 

Which brings up another interesting question, it seems like cheaters never want to resolve on the precise bullseye of the exact moment of the decision to cheat. I wonder why that is.

 

Well, I have actually posted here the days events and what I was thinking the first day I cheated.

 

I guess what your missing is that there really isn't that much thought of marriage and spouses in those moments. If there were, there would be far less infidelities, right?

[BetrayedH]

I disagree that it is irrational emotions since the actions taken by cheaters at least in the kinds of affair we have been talking about in this thread, are very coldly calculated and well-thought out. In hindsight as justification I agree the cheater might say "I was just being so irrational, I wasn't thinking straight."

 

But in the moment of their affairs, they are quite often thinking very straight and being very calculating and rational. They are making cold rational computations of risk vs. reward. They perceive little risk of getting caught or any consequences vs. the reward the affair gives them, and so, choose to have the affair, or to continue it.

 

Maybe this gradually going down the rabbit hole refers to trying it on little by little and realizing that no negative consequences are happening--you've successfully kept it under wraps--so just continue escalating it. That doesn't mean it's not coldly calculated. It means it's been very coldly calculated. You cheat "a little bit" because if you get caught you can explain the little bit away or have plausible deniability.

 

As the cheaters get away with more and more without getting caught, it's entirely rational for them to become bolder and bolder until it's a full fledged affair. But that careful gradualism is not suggestive of irrationality or impulsivity, but the opposite.

 

I get your point but I think it discounts a lot of compartmentalization that can take place. Many waywards intentionally "didn't think about it."

[Trotters]

I was the OM. The WW cheated on her husband 9 times and her husband still doesn't know(And if he does hes not said anything). I know she knew it was wrong but she kept initiating meet ups & saying she misses me etc. I gave her the option to walk away & concentrate on her marriage like she wanted to, BUT, she wanted to work on her marriage without telling her husband about the affair. How that would work I dunno, because to me still wanting to "be friends" and to meet up occasionally is still keeping secrets & is a lie of omission.

 

 

She even said "Its up to me what I want" meaning she wasn't going to leave her husband yet she seemed still prepared to have me in her life. How she could work on her marriage like that, still keeping secrets im not sure?. That's not working on a marriage 100% in my eyes???.

 

 

I cant believe she said its upto me what I want. The answer I was expecting from her was "This is wrong & you need to stay out of my life".

[Furious]

The difference between those who are tempted and those who, whether slowly get pulled in or those who seek affairs, is the ability to justify and lie convincingly to their spouse.

 

How many times does a WS come home just after being intimate with their OW/OM and act normal, go to the family gathering, the sport events, make dinner...etc... That's the difference, it's that ability to not only deceive but to actively protect the deception. Controlling the narraitive, spinning reality, as long as possible. Some people can do this, and in order to do this, there's a innate trait in themselves that has probably been there all along. Most people don't from zero to one hundred in a spilt second, the art of small lies without introspection usually ends ups being the art of big lies.

[DbleBetrayal]

Which brings up another interesting question, it seems like cheaters never want to resolve on the precise bullseye of the exact moment of the decision to cheat. I wonder why that is.

 

It's because they were horny as hell and didn't give 2 s**** by that point. They were probably thinking about it loooong before it happened. That's the bottom line. It's really that simple.

[Poptart]

I get your point but I think it discounts a lot of compartmentalization that can take place. Many waywards intentionally "didn't think about it."

 

I understand the concept of compartmentalization which is often used, but that's an after the fact explanation to try to explain what happened.

 

What I am trying to get is an actual in-the-moment explanation from someone who actually cheated. I really don't think most cheaters, in the moment of their affairs, told themselves "I am compartmentalizing." They told themselves something else entirely as their justification--"compartmentalization" is just what WE call it after the fact in looking back on it and trying to justify what happened as something other than "deliberate misbehavior."

[OverIt75]

...which MIGHT apply to a drunken, one night stand situation on an out of town business trip, followed by a heart felt confession to the betrayed spouse the next morning when you wake up from the hangover. MIGHT.

 

But does NOT apply to a prolonged "game of courtship" between the two affair partners over many weeks or months.

 

It is not a heat of the moment thing when the boss declares his attraction, you know immediately it is bad and you should run away, but let it continue, until the boss "erodes" your walls of resistance.

 

I am not asking what the post-affair rationalizations for the conduct might be. I am asking what was actually going through the cheater's head in the moment. She was not thinking "this is so impulsive." She was thinking "this is very bad." So if she knows it's "very bad" she had to have calculated what she thought was positive in having the affair that would counterbalance the "very bad."

 

That's what I would like to know. How does someone do something they know is "very bad," not in the moment, on impulse? What is the computation that actually happened inside their head? There has to be something going on inside the mind, not just irrational emotions. If it was just impulsive irrational emotions they would have ripped each others' clothes off then and there and that obviously didn't happen.

 

I just don't have a snapshot of my mind in that moment where I can say, yep, THIS was my rational, logical thought. I don't know.

 

The 'prolonged game of courtship' you reference for me came AFTER I thought I was in love with OM. So while I of course had to make conscious decisions daily to continue it, the whole 'in love' feeling really jacks you up. You are NOT thinking straight. I can remember when first dating my husband, planning a trip to see him when he was out of town. A massive snow-storm hit, I'm talking shut down the roads, ice, etc. But I STILL made that trip. Rational, logical? Nope. But I was in love.

 

I am assuming you have done something, at some point in your life (not necessarily infidelity) that you just KNEW was wrong, but you did it anyway. Can you think what was happening in your mind that allowed you to continue? To me, it's not just one thing, rather a confluence of thoughts and emotions that justifies that next step. It is the perfect storm, so to speak.

[Poptart]

It's because they were horny as hell and didn't give 2 s**** by that point. They were probably thinking about it loooong before it happened. That's the bottom line. It's really that simple.

 

This is what the betrayed spouse often thinks. And I guess there are some cheaters who are very upfront and would actually say "I cheated because I wanted to/was horny/because I felt like it."

 

But I am trying to address the ex-cheaters who do NOT agree with your explanation. Does OverIt75's journal entries for her affair talk about "I am doing this because I am horny as hell and don't give a sh**t?" I seriously doubt that.

[DbleBetrayal]

 

What I am trying to get is an actual in-the-moment explanation from someone who actually cheated. ."

 

They wanted to get their rocks off.

 

That's it.

[lovinDKT3]

Yep, this.

 

Poptart, maybe you don't think I'm answering you, but I am to the best of my ability. I honestly can't say I can pinpoint a decision 'in the moment'; rather a series of decisions that culminated in the moment. They are all irrational and build upon the one before it.

 

This is why have have an issue with people saying they didn't look for affairs. That is a copout. Every time you crossed a line you knew what it was working towards, something wrong yet you continue down that path. That is the defination of looking for something.

 

It was like the first time OM asked me out, I knew what he wanted and what it could lead to, so then saying it wasn't what I intended isn't being honest. I don't think anyone that use this logic is being honest. Its much easier then saying what is the truth which is you went away and got the affair. You did, as did I. Every crossed line was made willingly and a step closer to the goal. It was your intent, the affair. The mistake is made in thinking you can control it. Losing control is all you never intended.

[BetrayedH]

Well, I have actually posted here the days events and what I was thinking the first day I cheated.

 

I guess what your missing is that there really isn't that much thought of marriage and spouses in those moments. If there were, there would be far less infidelities, right?

 

Agreed. I don't care for such an unsavory word but the fact is that affairs are selfish. The thought in the moment is of themselves and not of others. That part is compartmentalized away with rationalizations like, it won't hurt them if they never know.

[OverIt75]

But in your case there is an answer since you actually kept journal entries. Why not just post the journal entry immediately before/after the first time you had sex with the OM?

 

I wish I had kept one back then. I didn't start it until after our first attempt to 'break up', months later.

 

The first time? I thought I was in love. It's a natural step when you're in love. I knew it was wrong. But I guess I justified it because of this feeling. I remember thinking it was totally surreal and I couldn't believe I had gotten myself this far, but also feeling like it was too late.

 

Maybe I don't have the insight you are looking for.

[Poptart]

I just don't have a snapshot of my mind in that moment where I can say, yep, THIS was my rational, logical thought. I don't know.

 

You do have the equivalent of a snapshot of your mind which is your journal entries made at the time you crossed the line to decide to actually have sex with the OM. I realize there are many lesser boundaries that needed to be crossed but actual sex is the "biggie." This is why I think it would be so awesomely valuable for you to actually post those journal entries. Then we would finally get to see what is actually going on "inside" the mind of a person who gets involved with something like this even though knowing they shouldn't.

 

 

 

The 'prolonged game of courtship' you reference for me came AFTER I thought I was in love with OM.

 

Are you sure about this? There had to be courtship before you thought you were "in love" with the OM.

 

 

 

So while I of course had to make conscious decisions daily to continue it, the whole 'in love' feeling really jacks you up. You are NOT thinking straight.

 

What actions did you take that showed you weren't thinking straight? Just because you had an affair that's not an indication of confused thinking--because that would be circular reasoning: You had the affair because you weren't thinking straight, and we know you weren't thinking straight because you had the affair. That doesn't actually answer anything.

 

When you told us a little about what you were actually thinking--you knew it was bad, you should run away--that indicates you were thinking very clearly about it.

 

Also, the concealment necessary for this kind of an affair also requires lots of logical thinking.

 

Saying that you deliberately took actions day to day towards having an affair, because of the in love feeling, doesn't mean you weren't thinking straight. It means you prioritized taking actions that would let those in-love feelings continue, because you like the way it made you feel.

 

The question still remains why/how you prioritized the feel-good over refraining from doing something you already knew was "bad." What actually was going on in your mind? I'll bet it's all laid out in your journal.

 

 

I can remember when first dating my husband, planning a trip to see him when he was out of town. A massive snow-storm hit, I'm talking shut down the roads, ice, etc. But I STILL made that trip. Rational, logical? Nope. But I was in love.

 

It may have been risky or dangerous to drive through a snowstorm but that doesn't mean it was involuntary or irrational. You made a choice.

 

Now if the tie-in is you are saying you have a history of taking dangerous risks to make yourself have those good "in love" feelings, maybe taking risks even enhances those feelings, you might just be onto something. Some people like jumping out of airplanes and rollercoasters too. Are you someone who needs an adrenaline thrill on top of the in love feeling to enhance it? Cheating certainly provides many people with the adrenaline rush. Is that you?

 

 

 

I am assuming you have done something, at some point in your life (not necessarily infidelity) that you just KNEW was wrong, but you did it anyway.

 

That's a very interesting yet cynical assumption. I can honestly say I've never in my adult life anyway deliberately done anything that I "KNEW" was wrong, at least not anything non-trivial, that I thought could have the potential to damage an important relationship. And there are a lot of other people who haven't either. That doesn't make me a better person than you--but then I am not an adrenaline junkie either. Doing risky things doesn't give me a rush; it scares me and makes me anxious. So maybe I never cheated because for me to do that would create too much anxiety and would detract from the pleasure, whereas for you, the risk enhanced the pleasure.

 

 

Can you think what was happening in your mind that allowed you to continue? To me, it's not just one thing, rather a confluence of thoughts and emotions that justifies that next step. It is the perfect storm, so to speak.

 

I have to admit I have fantasized about cheating. But fantasies are just that. In reality, I think I would be way too anxious about getting caught, and just too guilt ridden, for it to be worth the risk to me.

[Poptart]

I wish I had kept one back then. I didn't start it until after our first attempt to 'break up', months later.

 

The first time? I thought I was in love. It's a natural step when you're in love. I knew it was wrong. But I guess I justified it because of this feeling. I remember thinking it was totally surreal and I couldn't believe I had gotten myself this far, but also feeling like it was too late.

 

Maybe I don't have the insight you are looking for.

 

No you are giving plenty of insight, thanks.

 

So, if you "knew it was wrong," why didn't your guilty conscience stop you from being able to enjoy doing the wrong thing? How is it that you can know something is wrong and do it anyway, and still enjoy doing it?

 

You also say you felt so far involved that "it was too late." So, like a gambler who has lost half his money and then decides rather than walk away from the table just to throw all the rest away?

 

What exactly was this "feeling" you were getting that was so powerful?

 

From your first thread which I looked at, it basically sounds like the OM was not treating you like he loved you very much at all. It sounds like you were being victimized and degraded by your OM. That's what you were talking about when you posted your first thread back in June.

 

I just don't understand how being treated in a degrading fashion like that can translate into making you feel "good." What fantasy is being fulfilled for you in that situation?