Irony of an Affair

[MuddyFootprints]

What's the harm in courting each other? There is work to be done. One of them can't just be sitting in a lawn chair watching the rebuild. Both of them need to pick up a hammer.

[DKT3]

I didn't say it was pointless for her to focus on his pain and healing. I said it was pointless to do so without dealing with her own sh*t. If she rug sweeps her own feelings and issues they will just crop up later. My point was this is a forum where one talks about what is going on inside of them and in their life. We have no idea how much of her time is spent during the day. We are not a fly on the wall in her life.

 

This is a bed she made, as it is for all WS's.

 

Look I've seen both sides of a WS. My WS was much like many here now at one point. Saying, doing and thinking along these same lines. IE "I never went looking for an affair" and so on. I divorced that woman. Years later she is now honest with her feelings then as best as she could be after that much time, and now. That is the woman I fell in love with and the one I want to spend the rest of my life with.

 

All the minimizing BS, and hiding from the truth doesn't get you to that point.

 

WS's owns the heavy lifting. No one can heal anyone else, but they can make it easier and worth the pain of doing so. This is where I see so many WS's here struggle. Just like during the affair, the selfish self serving attitude puts themselves first when their focus should be on the person they injuried and abused.

 

That isn't rug sweeping. Its embracing the damage done and accepting responsibilty for it. This is a time you have to put the BS's needs and feelings above your own if the marriage is something you want to maintain. Put away the selfish wayward thinking that lead to the affair, that mindset has to end to recover the marriage. Not doing so will end up with the wayward spouse work only on their issues because they will be alone.

 

Of course you can't take the blue one and make all the emotions invested in the AP go away, but this is what you signed up for when you crossed over from faithful wife to wayward wife. No BS wants to see their spouse struggle with feelings for another, its as unfair as the affair itself. No BS asked for this.

[Selfish]

This is a bed she made, as it is for all WS's.

 

Look I've seen both sides of a WS. My WS was much like many here now at one point. Saying, doing and thinking along these same lines. IE "I never went looking for an affair" and so on. I divorced that woman. Years later she is now honest with her feelings then as best as she could be after that much time, and now. That is the woman I fell in love with and the one I want to spend the rest of my life with.

 

All the minimizing BS, and hiding from the truth doesn't get you to that point.

 

WS's owns the heavy lifting. No one can heal anyone else, but they can make it easier and worth the pain of doing so. This is where I see so many WS's here struggle. Just like during the affair, the selfish self serving attitude puts themselves first when their focus should be on the person they injuried and abused.

 

That isn't rug sweeping. Its embracing the damage done and accepting responsibilty for it. This is a time you have to put the BS's needs and feelings above your own if the marriage is something you want to maintain. Put away the selfish wayward thinking that lead to the affair, that mindset has to end to recover the marriage. Not doing so will end up with the wayward spouse work only on their issues because they will be alone.

 

Of course you can't take the blue one and make all the emotions invested in the AP go away, but this is what you signed up for when you crossed over from faithful wife to wayward wife. No BS wants to see their spouse struggle with feelings for another, its as unfair as the affair itself. No BS asked for this.

 

I really don't know what you are going on about. Honest to goodness what are we even arguing over? I merely pointed out that beach's assumptions are based on the idea that people can't post anything on here but about their spouse's feelings or they will be told they aren't focusing on their BS. She needs to get her head on straight and so she obviously feels the need to vent a little where it is safe to do so. To some strangers. But that still doesn't mean she isn't on the right track.

 

Oh and I saw what you did there. Clever bringing up the "looking for the affair" you know it all about every situation as well I see. Good to know, good to know. I do believe there were people that agreed with me though... But honey, let's stop arguing because I really don't know what it really is about.

[MuddyFootprints]

You have to admit, though...that if the (I hate the 'BS' abbreviation) signs on for reconciliation, s/he is going to have to do some damn hard work, too.

 

We understand that. If it's not going to work and you can't let it go, then you have to be completely transparent about that, too.

 

We can only work as hard as you will let us.

[jbrent890]

You have to admit, though...that if the (I hate the 'BS' abbreviation) signs on for reconciliation, s/he is going to have to do some damn hard work, too.

 

We understand that. If it's not going to work and you can't let it go, then you have to be completely transparent about that, too.

 

We can only work as hard as you will let us.

 

Agreed, but it is up to the WS to do the heavy lifting. As it stands, we are sensing that Overit is still struggling with feelings for her AP. And if we are sensing it, then her husband is DEFINITELY sensing it as well. This is why a lot of BHs leave after a period of time in reconciliation, especially if they caught their wives in the affair. Watching your wife struggle with feelings for the AP after the affair is over is enough to make any man feel like second place.

[revelations]

You are kind of sick because you are not offering things that actually heal a relationship like freebie sex which is not going to help a marriage out or erase what was done. Or buying a harley. It aslo assumes that all men are materlistic and only think with their penis. And there are men who are far more evolved and emotionaly sound than this. You were cheated on but you are not allen and you cannot speak for all men. I cheated but I cannot speak for all women who have because we are all different even within our respective genders. You will always find like minded people who lap up your attacks thinnly veiled as "advice".

 

If a betrayed spouse required banging whoever they wanted, and fancy toys and basically to be selfish and spoiled in order to save a marriage I would encourage the WS in that situation to reconsider reconciliation and feeding a self entitled monster. If the betrayed makes a lot larger amount of money signing over rights may sound like a good idea but we all know how well that actually looks in the court of law. And if their our children involved impovershing a parent is never healthy. The other things would make most healthy men who are worth fighting for cringe and say that isn't what will help me trust and love you again. Most healthy and worthwhile men would see the offer of a freebie as a desperate attempt of the WS to rugsweep or pull their BS down to their level of shame. A marriage isn't over until divorced and most honest and healthy BS do not want to throw away their morals and self respect because their partner did. Offering a freebie, even to someone who is considering a RA, is like a slap in the face. And most healthy and worthwhile men would see a car for what it is. A pathetic attempt to buy forgiveness. A shortcut.

 

Being open, honest, and humble. Being there even for a tongue lashing. Not shifting the focus or rugsweeping. Not trying to rush the Bs through the process, seeking counseling both IC and MC if possible. All these things are positive and work towards reconciliation. Not buying toys, losing your right to have an opinion or opening up an unhealthy marriage.

 

Wow do you even know how to read a whole sentence? When I listed things out such as letting the BH get laid, buying a bike, car, taking a trip those were just examples of some things a WW can do to make a major amends to their BH. I do also believe that I stated that all BH's are different in that one action or gift would be received better than another. Some of you people really need to get off your high horse and stop trying to cherry pick and misdirect what my point is. I will also point out that you totally ignored that I not only suggested IC and MC, I had also suggested that she pays for it. WTF is your problem with a woman being held responsible for her actions? Also just to be clear, the second she became a WW she is the one that threw her marriage down the drain and her BH under the bus. I simply stated that once the cheating happens then the BS (man or woman) has no obligation in my option to honor a marriage contract that has already been broken. Truthfully I feel the best way for a BS to heal is to first dump that WS. I understand that everyone is different and some will choose to stay with a WS and that is on them. However I will say that people on here are truly gifted and taking a few words out of context and running with it. You missed your calling as lawyer, because you can put a spin on anything.

[Selfish]

Agreed, but it is up to the WS to do the heavy lifting. As it stands, we are sensing that Overit is still struggling with feelings for her AP. And if we are sensing it, then her husband is DEFINITELY sensing it as well. This is why a lot of BHs leave after a period of time in reconciliation, especially if they caught their wives in the affair. Watching your wife struggle with feelings for the AP after the affair is over is enough to make any man feel like second place.

 

"heavy lifting" became some pat little answer given and implies the BS sits back doing what? drinking martinis. I am sorry, there is heavy lifting done by both if the marriage is to recover. And the BS's feels far heavier because they never asked for it in the first place.

[DKT3]

I really don't know what you are going on about. Honest to goodness what are we even arguing over? I merely pointed out that beach's assumptions are based on the idea that people can't post anything on here but about their spouse's feelings or they will be told they aren't focusing on their BS. She needs to get her head on straight and so she obviously feels the need to vent a little where it is safe to do so. To some strangers. But that still doesn't mean she isn't on the right track.

 

Oh and I saw what you did there. Clever bringing up the "looking for the affair" you know it all about every situation as well I see. Good to know, good to know. I do believe there were people that agreed with me though... But honey, let's stop arguing because I really don't know what it really is about.

 

Thought process. If I keep telling myself I can't do something, then when the time comes I won't do it.

 

If she spends too much time thinking about her AP and how she misses him how does that heal the marriage or help her husband move past it?

 

If you read this thread you will find I was very supportive of OverIt and told her I thought she was on the right road. But her mindset has to change, her focus has to change.

 

She once said part of her lost attraction towards her husband was because he was too passive. Then he threw her out all of a sudden her focus was on him again. He allowed her back now her focus is swinging back toward OM.

 

This is a place to vent, many of us are here to help others through what we went through and light the road. OverIt seems to be backsliding even in a vent it should be pointed out. Of course the advise is from our personal POV's.

 

Yeah, sorry I took a shot. I read the debate you had with my lady, I don't jump into threads when she is going, or I try not to. BTW her IC thought it was a major break through for her when she finally admitted she did in fact go looking/made it happen. I still remember the crying call when she confessed it to me. That is a major moment when one let's go of the "it just happened" victim line. Making it seem like it was out of their control. Own it, all of it.

[Selfish]

 

Yeah, sorry I took a shot. I read the debate you had with my lady, I don't jump into threads when she is going, or I try not to. BTW her IC thought it was a major break through for her when she finally admitted she did in fact go looking/made it happen. I still remember the crying call when she confessed it to me. That is a major moment when one let's go of the "it just happened" victim line. Making it seem like it was out of their control. Own it, all of it.

 

"sorry I took a shot BUT" that should read. Remember that may very well be true for her and her situation. But as I clearly stated why "looking for an affair" and what those words mean to me is NOT true for mine. And me not agreeing that I was looking for an affair is not me being a victim, it doesn't make me a victim or any less culpable for what I did. end of story. don't think I could be more clear. Not going to buy in to what is true for someone else's situation being true for me.

[jbrent890]

"heavy lifting" became some pat little answer given and implies the BS sits back doing what? drinking martinis. I am sorry, there is heavy lifting done by both if the marriage is to recover. And the BS's feels far heavier because they never asked for it in the first place.

 

Selfish where did I say that the BS needs to sit back and do nothing? You are getting exceedingly defensive towards posts that aren't even directed towards you. As a BS I definitely don't sit back a let my wife do all the work. However, since she cheated, the brunt of the work does fall on her, especially if the cheating was discovered recently. That's what her counselor believes and more importantly, that's what she believes. And it's her attempts at winning me back that is making this process that much easier.

[DKT3]

"heavy lifting" became some pat little answer given and implies the BS sits back doing what? drinking martinis. I am sorry, there is heavy lifting done by both if the marriage is to recover. And the BS's feels far heavier because they never asked for it in the first place.

 

Haha, so taking back a person that took your trust, love for them and commitment then pissed on it is drinking martinis?

 

I do agree both have work to do. I did some crappy stuff to my wife, I always say if it was a football game I would be up 9-7. I did more little sh&t but her one almost out did my several small ones.

 

In the end you have to work together as a team, however what team allows someone from the other side in the locker room.

[Selfish]

Selfish where did I say that the BS needs to sit back and do nothing? You are getting exceedingly defensive towards posts that aren't even directed towards you. As a BS I definitely don't sit back a let my wife do all the work. However, since she cheated, the brunt of the work does fall on her, especially if the cheating was discovered recently. That's what her counselor believes and more importantly, that's what she believes. And it's her attempts at winning me back that is making this process that much easier.

 

Not defensive just merely do not like the connotation of that saying. Because I really don't see how being open, honest, patient, understanding, empathetic, being proactive, willing to take full responsibility, willing to dive into deep problems, and being there no matter how rough the road gets (to name a few things) is "the" heavy lifting. That is just being a good spouse. But the BS? The BS who remained faithful? They have a whole lot more to deal with. And, if a truly good marriage is to be had again the BS has to work past the pain and anger, regain trust, fight the mental images, and oh so much more. And at some point be all the things a good spouse is.

 

No sorry, I will never believe that the WS does the heavy lifting in a truly reconciled marriage.

[Selfish]

Haha, so taking back a person that took your trust, love for them and commitment then pissed on it is drinking martinis?

 

I do agree both have work to do. I did some crappy stuff to my wife, I always say if it was a football game I would be up 9-7. I did more little sh&t but her one almost out did my several small ones.

 

In the end you have to work together as a team, however what team allows someone from the other side in the locker room.

 

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying why I don't like that phrase because it implies that the BS is NOT doing heavy lifting. Hence my follow up post.

[DKT3]

"sorry I took a shot BUT" that should read. Remember that may very well be true for her and her situation. But as I clearly stated why "looking for an affair" and what those words mean to me is NOT true for mine. And me not agreeing that I was looking for an affair is not me being a victim, it doesn't make me a victim or any less culpable for what I did. end of story. don't think I could be more clear. Not going to buy in to what is true for someone else's situation being true for me.

 

Oh its true, you said so in your posts. You just refuse to accept it since you have this idea that it means you were out trolling for men. That is living single, you may not have done that but you went looking with your AP. If you hadn't, guess what? You would have never had an affair. Not looking would have meant at some point you said "no, I'm a married woman I won't do that" again you didn't do that.

 

But hey, its your life, your marriage. I will say this, repeating is likely when you can't accept your full role.

 

Good luck

[Selfish]

Oh its true, you said so in your posts. You just refuse to accept it since you have this idea that it means you were out trolling for men. That is living single, you may not have done that but you went looking with your AP. If you hadn't, guess what? You would have never had an affair. Not looking would have meant at some point you said "no, I'm a married woman I won't do that" again you didn't do that.

 

But hey, its your life, your marriage. I will say this, repeating is likely when you can't accept your full role.

 

Good luck

oh sigh, you guys just have to be right about everybody. Of course when I decided to engage with OM I was "looking for an affair" but I was not "looking for an affair" before that point. And for me the affair began when I made the decision to accept his offer of friendship because I crossed my line. I did not tell my husband and my deception began then. So if you mean "looking for an affair" as in actually choosing to have an affair then yes. But most people do not view "looking for an affair" that way. They mean actively seeking an affair before one begins.

[beach]

Not defensive just merely do not like the connotation of that saying. Because I really don't see how being open, honest, patient, understanding, empathetic, being proactive, willing to take full responsibility, willing to dive into deep problems, and being there no matter how rough the road gets (to name a few things) is "the" heavy lifting. That is just being a good spouse. But the BS? The BS who remained faithful? They have a whole lot more to deal with. And, if a truly good marriage is to be had again the BS has to work past the pain and anger, regain trust, fight the mental images, and oh so much more. And at some point be all the things a good spouse is.

 

No sorry, I will never believe that the WS does the heavy lifting in a truly reconciled marriage.

 

My thinking is that if the BS is willing to stay/work on the marriage - how can the M improve if the cheater isn't working toward setting things right by being committed to the M? What if the cheater isn't being honest, forthcoming and loving toward the BS?

 

What does the BS have to work with if they don't have that right from the start?

 

I think you misunderstood me earlier - but I do feel that if each person isn't changing and making extreme effort to improve the M then it will look like "just surviving". It takes way more than just surviving to get to the root of why one person cheated and how they will never cheat again. And that person has more work to "do" to prove that they can be worthy of trusting again.

 

So yes, there's work for both - but if the WS isn't giving info to HELP heal the M then it will feel stagnant and hopeless for the M to be a happy union moving forward.

[DKT3]

oh sigh, you guys just have to be right about everybody. Of course when I decided to engage with OM I was "looking for an affair" but I was not "looking for an affair" before that point. And for me the affair began when I made the decision to accept his offer of friendship because I crossed my line. I did not tell my husband and my deception began then. So if you mean "looking for an affair" as in actually choosing to have an affair then yes. But most people do not view "looking for an affair" that way. They mean actively seeking an affair before one begins.

 

No, its not about being right. Its about swimming through the bulldong. Your playing word games. You found a man who was not your husband attractive and you went for it. That is looking for an affair right from the start.

 

None of this can get to a healthy place without being honest. You have to understand the road you took that got you where you went to not go there again. By you holding on so tight to the idea that this just happened, also maintains this thought that what happened was special. "Oh that could have never happened with anyone else"

 

You do have to agree, just ponder. I have a feeling at some point what I'm saying will ring some truth in you.

 

For now, we just agree to disagree.

 

BTW, I like you as a poster. It takes a strong person to do this, even on the internet.

[beach]

oh sigh, you guys just have to be right about everybody. Of course when I decided to engage with OM I was "looking for an affair" but I was not "looking for an affair" before that point. And for me the affair began when I made the decision to accept his offer of friendship because I crossed my line. I did not tell my husband and my deception began then. So if you mean "looking for an affair" as in actually choosing to have an affair then yes. But most people do not view "looking for an affair" that way. They mean actively seeking an affair before one begins.

 

You are describing the way a lot of affairs begin. Keeping that "friendship" from your spouse is telling that you knew it wasn't the right thing but chose to participate anyway.

 

It happens. It happens a lot. Read lots of threads in the infidelity section - you'll see the patterns and denial and how much it hurts a betrayed spouse.

 

But splitting hairs isn't productive when the end result was that you cheated.

 

If I knew I was doing something that I knew would harm my spouse and my M I know it would be a conscious decision that I made.

 

Splitting hairs won't make it right and it doesn't make it not real.

Edited November 30, 2014 by beach

[Selfish]

You are describing the way a lot of affairs begin. Keeping that "friendship" from your spouse is telling that you knew it wasn't the right thing but chose to participate anyway.

 

It happens. It happens a lot. Read lots of threads in the infidelity section - you'll see the patterns and denial and how much it hurts a betrayed spouse.

 

But splitting hairs isn't productive when the end result was that you cheated.

 

If I knew I was doing something that I knew would harm my spouse and my M I know it would be a conscious decision that I made.

 

Splitting hairs won't make it right and it doesn't make it not real.

 

I am not saying anything to contradict you? Not sure what your point is. I haven't even split hairs so this post is meaningless in reply to me. I described my actions as they were.

 

I knew I crossed the line the moment I chose to accept the my affair partner's offer of friendship. I went from turning him down to having an emotional affair. I described what looking for an affair means to me and how not everyone who has a an affair was looking for one before they choose to have one. And used a pretty clear job analogy to boot. I chose to have an affair. That is entirely on me. I have never split hairs or tried to downplay it. Nor do I see myself of some victim of chance. I made my own choices of my own free will. I chose so very, very wrong. But I am not going to say or agree with things I don't just because others disagree or think they know everything about everything. or are supremely patronizing when I have to say by their stories I have a few more years of "happily reconciled" under my belt than them. Our stories are completely different though and everyone recovers at different paces. Who knows, maybe they have arrived.

 

Besides, whether I went looking for an affair or took the opportunity to have one when it presented itself... I did far worse things. I chose to do far worse things. I made choices to keep going every step of the way.

[DKT3]

I am not saying anything to contradict you? Not sure what your point is. I haven't even split hairs so this post is meaningless in reply to me. I described my actions as they were.

 

I knew I crossed the line the moment I chose to accept the my affair partner's offer of friendship. I went from turning him down to having an emotional affair. I described what looking for an affair means to me and how not everyone who has a an affair was looking for one before they choose to have one. And used a pretty clear job analogy to boot. I chose to have an affair. That is entirely on me. I have never split hairs or tried to downplay it. Nor do I see myself of some victim of chance. I made my own choices of my own free will. I chose so very, very wrong. But I am not going to say or agree with things I don't just because others disagree or think they know everything about everything. or are supremely patronizing when I have to say by their stories I have a few more years of "happily reconciled" under my belt than them. Our stories are completely different though and everyone recovers at different paces. Who knows, maybe they have arrived.

 

Besides, whether I went looking for an affair or took the opportunity to have one when it presented itself... I did far worse things. I chose to do far worse things. I made choices to keep going every step of the way.

sorry you feel we are patronizing. The truth is are journey is a long one and her affair was almost a decade ago

 

Here is the thing, I understand as much about her affair as she does. She openly shares everything about it and is willing to answer ANY question I have(I don't ask much, never have). I fully accept my responsibilty in the issue pre affair. It has been a slow process, a mostly very healthy process. At this point I'm as confident as she is that it would never happen again. Don't be fooled by the timeline set here on this website, we have been working towards this point for years. It took divorce, a year and a half of very little contact. We are happy healthy and expecting.

 

The number of years mean nothing if its not done the right way. Read up her, you will see stories of 10 years between affairs, stories of fake R with continued affairs.

 

And for the record, I'm an a--hole, no doubt. Lovin is a sweet heart.

[fellini]

I am in the camp that finds this phrase "heavy lifting" to be rather unfortunate, and EVEN if I did really know what that meant, I'd probably disagree with the phrase, "the WS has to do all the heavy lifting."

 

NO. My WS does not have to do the heavy lifting. She only has to be in love with me, as unconditionally as possible. That is not heavy lifting. That is a human gift. She either has the capacity to do that or she does not. She cannot make it happen.

 

I have to to the heavy lifting to recover from the trust that I have lost. She can do all she has to do to try to convince me that trust can be restored. But as a BS, if there is anything that can be considered heavy lifting, it is lifting this black cloud that envelopes me and which I cling to to prevent being hurt ever again by someone with whom I never imagined would stray.

 

It is me that has to do this work because it is me that is holding it in place.

 

I do not want my WS to spend the next 3 years doing heavy lifting. I want that she is ABLE to take a GOOD SERIOUS AUTHENTIC look at what she has done. To see that an atomic bomb has gone off and it has contaminated everyone. And now she needs to be authentic with me so that I stop feeling like I envy the dead and join her in cleaning up the mess. Equally. I am in no hurry to "rebuild the marriage". That is what living each day with someone who is a gift in your life will do. It is not work, it is bliss.

 

I am not yet in bliss. And neither is she. It is not about the heavy lifting or lack of it. It is that we have been ultimately, inauthentic in our desire to prove to each other that we still have a future. We cannot prove this. She cannot promise me trust if I do not agree to try. We need to focus on the day to day and put the past where it belongs.

[drifter777]

Fellini - you observation is simply semantics. You don't like the term "heavy lifting" and admit you don't know what it means. What you describe you want and expect from you WW is pretty much my definition of heavy lifting. The easiest example is the difficult task she has in regaining any measure of trust. Or maintaining NC.

[fellini]

Fellini - you observation is simply semantics. You don't like the term "heavy lifting" and admit you don't know what it means. What you describe you want and expect from you WW is pretty much my definition of heavy lifting. The easiest example is the difficult task she has in regaining any measure of trust. Or maintaining NC.

 

Not at all. You say semantics, I think you dont read what is clearly written.

 

Everyone says "the WS has to do the heavy lifting" but no one actually says what that actually means (even to them). But its thrown around we all agree what that means.

 

If my wife would simply show me love as love was meant to be shown that would be enough. That is not heavy lifting. It is in fact, behaving like someone deeply in love. There is nothing else to prove if that can be shown.

[BetrayedH]

I think the heavy lifting shifts. As I've said more times than I can count, I think a successful reconciliation take two things: (1) A truly remorseful wayward spouse and (2) a truly forgiving betrayed spouse. And #2 cannot come before #1.

 

I think showing true remorse is tremendous amount of heavy lifting. It requires transparency of the wayward's darkest moments. If they want to reconcile, they have to bare their worst side, and god forbid they falter. Deserved or not, it's a heavy burden and a tall order.

 

If they do it successfully, the burden then shifts to the betrayed, to forgive a betrayal. It's a debt that really can't be repaid. Well, maybe some do.

 

I think there's plenty of heavy lifting for both parties. Kudos to both if they manage it, which I would imagine requires that both parties eventually put their burden down, allowing their partner to do the same. I think it's a beautiful thing, actually. I don't see much of it here but I suppose those that have done it don't stick around here posting very much. Good for them.

[drifter777]

I think the vast majority of us understand what we mean by "heavy lifting". I think you do to but you are trying to make some existential point about how much better you are then the rest of us BH's.