Perspective from a MM and ?'s

[Speakingofwhich]

Most people in life don't like to talk about their regrets and mistakes at all. If they do, it will usually be to people who they know will be a vault and not share the confession to anyone else. Many take that type of stuff to the grave.

 

In the case of all the "Happily Married" affair couples, do you think they share their struggles with casual and even many close friends? No ones wants to admit that their fairy tale romance that they burned down their entire worlds for would up to be just a regular old run of the mill relationship...or worse, a hellish or unstable one. There is a sense of Pride there and proving everyone wrong, surviving against all odds, etc. etc.

 

It is very RARE indeed that you will find a couple who started as an affair who will realistically share their struggles.

 

You make some good points, Hoping!

 

I'm not advocating for people to have affairs and/or leave their spouses. I would rather see a marriage work out if possible than for a divorce to happen. But, I've also lived long enough to recognize that sometimes all parties end up happier D than they would have been had they stayed in the M. Not always, just sometimes! I do believe there are sometimes regrets, both for those who leave and for those who stay, depending on the parties involved, their circumstances and feelings.

 

In answer to your question, hmmm, I don't think most couples, whether affair couples or not, want to admit they're in a "regular old run of the mill relationship.....or worse a hellish or unstable one" to casual or even many close friends.

 

I wanted to write more, and did, but deleted out of respect to GLB since I realized it was beginning to be a t/j!

Edited September 27, 2013 by Speakingofwhich
clarification, changes the meaning; grammatical error

[cocorico]

In the case of all the "Happily Married" affair couples, do you think they share their struggles with casual and even many close friends? No ones wants to admit that their fairy tale romance that they burned down their entire worlds for would up to be just a regular old run of the mill relationship...or worse, a hellish or unstable one. There is a sense of Pride there and proving everyone wrong, surviving against all odds, etc. etc.

 

It is very RARE indeed that you will find a couple who started as an affair who will realistically share their struggles.

 

You are assuming that the "struggles" happily M fAPs share are related in any way to their R, rather than being external - ageing parents, work pressures, kids encountering difficulties with digsmates, etc. TBH, I can't think of a single R issue we've had since we M, even since me moved in together. The issues have all been external - the kind of stuff you discuss freely with friends and colleagues.

 

But - and here's a novel thought - if we were to have any R issues, I wouldn't talk to friends or acquaintances about it, I'd talk to *him*. We've got good communications channels and my first resort would be to resolve things directly with him. If that proved too difficult, I'd being in professionals - MC - and, if that wasn't bearing fruit we'd need to review whether the M was working for us or not.

[cocorico]

It appears this thread has become a battleground for BS and APs. Anyone can provide examples to support their argument. Heck, King Edward VII of England gave up the throne to marry Wallis Simpson. Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward were married for over 50 years after starting with an affair. This is not a tug-of-war where one side wins or proves they were right if OP goes their way. A "win" for me is if OP can reach a decision and find peace.

 

OP's situation is unique to him. His situation brings different angles or details that only he knows. Not all situations can be applied to OP as we all know each situation is different. (just like the people in affairs are all different.)

 

OP needs time and space to reach a solution. He needs to be honest with everyone: himself, wife and OW. He needs to get real and ask himself a lot of questions (a few examples of many):

 

 

 

• Can you feel the spark again for your wife?
  
• Are you in contact with OW? If not, does that impact your decisions to stay?
  
• Would you be happier living on your own if you can not find it within yourself to give 100% to whomever you decide to be with?
  
• Do you know what being true to yourself even is? If not, I suggest talking to a therapist (not being rude). I think some people have lost their sense of self and end up just going along for the ride in their life. They will not ever feel happiness as they do not have control of their lives.
  
• Are you strong enough to fight the storm if you decide a different life for yourself?
  
• What do you define happiness as?
  

You must live an open life from now on. Either way that you decide, you must face straight-on and with conviction. No more lies or deceit. What a free feeling that will be. Get everything out in the open and start being an honest "You". It will be hard as I believe you have been living a charade. If you love your wife, tell her, live it. If you can not get OW out of your thoughts, be honest with your wife. I know we have established how that is lying and disrespectful to her. You can start today. Shake the weight off of your shoulders. Whatever you decide, you will have to acknowledge the pain involved and do whatever is needed to help heal yourself and others to move on. There is no easy way but sometimes one must fight for what their heart wants. Give your all in order to have the life you want, either with your wife, OW or yourself. (You can be happy on your own too.)

 

THIS ABOVE ALL, TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE.

 

Absolutely. It's not about conforming to expectations or "doing the right thing" (whatever you understand that to mean). That's the kind of thing that leads to As in the first place.

 

GLB needs to live authentically, or it's not going to be sustainable. And introspective questions like these are a good place to start finding out how.

[velvette]

Absolutely. It's not about conforming to expectations or "doing the right thing" (whatever you understand that to mean). That's the kind of thing that leads to As in the first place.

 

GLB needs to live authentically, or it's not going to be sustainable. And introspective questions like these are a good place to start finding out how.

 

 

That's the most convoluted definition of authenticity I've ever heard. Living authentically is absolutely about doing the right thing and it starts with honesty with yourself and the people you live with.

[cocorico]

That's the most convoluted definition of authenticity I've ever heard. Living authentically is absolutely about doing the right thing and it starts with honesty with yourself and the people you live with.

 

For some people perhaps "doing the right thing" is authentic to them; for others, it's a role they shrug on to comply with external demands or to avoid letting people down. For example, some kids of working class parents are set up by their parents to study hard with a view to a career as a doctor or lawyer, and pin all their hopes on the child succeeding at this. The child who "does the right thing" will dutifully follow the career mapped out for them by their parents, whether or not it interests or engages them, and whether or not they are happy, out of a sense of duty. The child that chooses authenticity above "doing the right thing" will have that diffuse conversation where they tell theirs rents that it's simply not for them, and then follow their passion instead.

 

Huge difference, IMO.

[Coolit]

For some people perhaps "doing the right thing" is authentic to them; for others, it's a role they shrug on to comply with external demands or to avoid letting people down. For example, some kids of working class parents are set up by their parents to study hard with a view to a career as a doctor or lawyer, and pin all their hopes on the child succeeding at this. The child who "does the right thing" will dutifully follow the career mapped out for them by their parents, whether or not it interests or engages them, and whether or not they are happy, out of a sense of duty. The child that chooses authenticity above "doing the right thing" will have that diffuse conversation where they tell theirs rents that it's simply not for them, and then follow their passion instead.

 

Huge difference, IMO.

 

Bad example. Doing the right thin isn't bein lead around by the nose and choosing the career your parents chose for you. Doing the right thing is being honest with your parents and saying "hey, I want to be a plumber not a doctor".

 

And if a parent was "doing the right thing" they would not pressure their child onto a path they don't have an interest in.

[velvette]

For some people perhaps "doing the right thing" is authentic to them; for others, it's a role they shrug on to comply with external demands or to avoid letting people down. For example, some kids of working class parents are set up by their parents to study hard with a view to a career as a doctor or lawyer, and pin all their hopes on the child succeeding at this. The child who "does the right thing" will dutifully follow the career mapped out for them by their parents, whether or not it interests or engages them, and whether or not they are happy, out of a sense of duty. The child that chooses authenticity above "doing the right thing" will have that diffuse conversation where they tell theirs rents that it's simply not for them, and then follow their passion instead.

 

Huge difference, IMO.

 

The OP is an adult, not a child. If he married his W because his parents told him to, yes he should probably end the marriage. Somehow, I doubt this is what happened.

[ladydesigner]

My ex-mm was a "fall guy" too & we both fell hard & fast. Unlike you, he made promises & future faked not because I wanted him to because he did that himself. When sh*t hit the fan, that's when he woke up & realized he didn't want to hurt his wife, he realized he had everything at home & his decision was made. I feel like you have to kill relationships in order to find out what exactly you want so you can work on reviving a whole new relationship with the person you choose.

 

This sounds just like my WH. In fact he actually said to me recently that his A actually made him realize what he was about to lose and how much we actually meant to him. Ugh really buddy? I definitely feel like my WH killed our M, he killed a little bit of me too. Although I guess he knows what he wants...for now.

[Got it]

LOL Liars lie, to just about everyone they meet. Once a person lies to those so close to them, the rest don't even matter. WSs lie.

 

I find it hard to believe you don't know anyone that left their spouse and then regretted it. It is so common it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

 

I'm not calling you a liar. Perhaps people don't disclose such information to you, for a variety of reasons. There could be many factors, but it is quite common.

 

Take it for whatever you want, but I don't agree as I didn't exhibit the same behaviors. I may not have disclosed to my spouse but I had no reason to lie to others. I may have chosen to not discuss it with them but I wasn't lying about it.

 

I too do not know anyone who has divorced and regretted it (for whatever reason they divorced). They may regret not seeing their kids as much as they would like, they may be tied to someone through kids that they don't want to be tied to anymore but no, I have never heard anyone pine for their ex.

[Got it]

Most people in life don't like to talk about their regrets and mistakes at all. If they do, it will usually be to people who they know will be a vault and not share the confession to anyone else. Many take that type of stuff to the grave.

 

In the case of all the "Happily Married" affair couples, do you think they share their struggles with casual and even many close friends? No ones wants to admit that their fairy tale romance that they burned down their entire worlds for would up to be just a regular old run of the mill relationship...or worse, a hellish or unstable one. There is a sense of Pride there and proving everyone wrong, surviving against all odds, etc. etc.

 

It is very RARE indeed that you will find a couple who started as an affair who will realistically share their struggles.

 

Based on what? I LOVE when BS smack down OP for not knowing what is going on at their home but the same line of logic is used on others' relationships. How do you know that they aren't sharing it with "people who they know will be a vault and not share the confession to anyone else. Many take that type of stuff to the grave."?

 

Sure, we have had issues. We have been honest with close friends more so me than he because of our personalities. I have three close friends that have been there for the ups and downs and have talked me through things, been the sounding board, and given me a good 2x4 when needed. We are pretty real and have never professed to be perfect.

 

We are happy. But we have conflict as well. My personality isn't one where I don't have some level of conflict at some time. I am a passionate individual who isn't a wallflower. He is a strong personality as well.

 

My parents love to tell the story on what a sweet quiet child I was and what the heck happened to that kid.

[janedoe67]

I remember in church one time saying "The devil ain't stupid. If sin didn't look fun and pretty no one would do it."

 

Not to be religious, but I think the same applies to A's. If the cheater didn't at least perceive it as thrilling or exciting or something then they sure as heck wouldn't do it. If they looked at the AP and just thought "hey, why don't I crush my spouse and hurt my kids and risk ripping my family apart" no one would cheat.

 

One of the values of hearing a WS/MM/MW honest thoughts is that it sheds some light on WHY someone would do something that is so obviously selfish, stupid and wrong in the first place. In my own case, the draw of the A was attention and touch and feeling "wanted." It was still 1000% wrong (that isn't a typo) and I still should never have even stepped that first toe over the line, but I still did.

 

I think there can be a lot of value in actually knowing the twisted thought proce3ss that goes on in a wayward's mind. Kind of like understanding a disease in order to cure it or the way those profilers on Criminal Minds understand the criminals so they can catch them.

 

Unfortunately (though yes, understandably) most WS's, especially ones who are still in the throes of trying to help their marriages/spouses heal, are afraid to open up about that side. No one wants to even mention the things that - at the time - they liked about the A. Because no matter how you qualify it and mea cupla before and after....many will still read any honest sharing about what an A feels like at the time as a lack of remorse or some inherent evil....and who wants to open themselves up to THAT response?

 

I figure I can learn something from what people say even if I don't like what they say. But sometimes I have to take the cotton out of my ears and put it into my mouth (or fingers).

[dichotomy]

I'm a MM who has had an A. I have been reading a lot of your posts on this board, at first out of curiosity of what the OW have to go through. I essentially knew the pain, sorrow and anger my OW was going through and felt terribly guilty, these posts just confirmed things for me and shows that these situations are complicated, similar but with many variations.

 

The types of MM (and MW?)

1. The Douche - a player who just wants sex and usually does not have lengthy A's cause he is figured out quite quickly.

2. The Liar - does not reveal he is married or in a relationship until it is too late, he is caught or sometimes never.

3. The Fall Guy - does not have bad intentions but falls for someone and starts an A he never thought he would be in this situation.

4. The Ego - A guy that needs constant stroking to keep building himself as a man.

5. The Sex Addict - can easily be part of any of the above

 

I do think many of the posts on here involve MM 3 and 4, because they are deeply rooted with passion feelings, that are hard to end and get over.

 

The question I see most is why does the MM stay with his W. First of all we can all agree cheating is the lowest of the low. No one is willing to admit to this shameful act, and to leave a Spouse because you had an Affair involves so many people; kids, relatives, parents, friends, in laws... D is hard without an A involve, you are divorcing an entire group of people and also cheating on an entire group of people. So it is much easier to stay with a W or H who you do not wish to hurt who is not terrible but does not give you the spark that is so brilliantly bright in an A. A lot of times it is just bad timing, if you were kids you would just break up, but marriage makes it hard, kids make it harder.

 

Part two of that is fear. Fear that you may not end up with you OW or OM, is the passion that is so strong, due to the secrecy and limited nature of the relationship. Would it last under normal conditions or are the feelings mainly fueled by the fantasy relationship which is just that for some MM, even though they may not realize it.

 

I wonder if my OW would have truly wanted to be with the real me. Not that I wasn't real but she only got the good parts of attention, adoration, emotion, romantic gestures. How would she handle the mundane me, watching football, work stress, occasional bad moods...normalcy? Probably the bigger question is could the MM handle the real life normalcy of the OW. A's are such a small percentage of what happens in real life and they are mostly all icing and not much cake.

 

For me the cake was what I craved I loved the normal time and interactions with my OW (I feel awful calling her that) I was the Fall guy and loved and still love her deeply I did not want to hurt her my W or anyone, but I hurt everyone. It is so hard to find the perfect person when you had already committed to the perfect person. I do believe men and women are so different and it is easier for woman to be monogamous and for weak men to be weak.

 

I do not mean for any of this to sound harsh its just my opinion from what I have lived read and thought about for countless hours. My heart is broken and sad, I would like to sit here and say I wish I was stronger and it never happened. But I cherish every second we were together, life is complicated.

 

Feel free to through darts at me or ask me to leave, I don't mean to intrude on your board, just thought I could offer perspective that isn't usually heard here.

 

I am a MM and a BH, and have not cheated ever in my long life - not even on a GF. But I realize now, with the issues in my marriage, I am now susceptible to an affair. Again, I have not cheated, nor am I actively seeking one, but I can tell you the reasons I could possibly have one are complex and not easily classified. Fortunately I do understand this, am getting both marriage counseling and individual counseling to help avoid it.

 

The reasons for cheating are not always simple - they were not with my wife.

[janedoe67]

dichotomy, because you have the self awareness and humility to understand that, and because you are willing to take steps to address that vulnerability, you will likely never have an A.

 

It's the "I am so above it I would never stoop so low" thinking that makes us most vulnerable. How do I know that? Because that was me. I ignored all warning signs because "I would never". I allowed myself to do one on one work projects with an opposite sex coworker because "I would never."

 

I did.

 

It makes me think of the proverb - be careful when you think you stand, lest you fall.

 

And as far as my earlier post.....another value in actually allowing a WS to process through all the gross crap.....if they process through it and address it it won;t still be in there niggling like an infection. I would think a BS would want ALL of the infection out and death with, even the unpleasant to hear parts. You can't get to the ugliness and why a WS did it anyway until you cut through all the rainbow fantasy crap.

 

I KNOW for a fact that one of the gaping holes in my own recovery came because I had some of those same feelings that the OP expressed, but because I knew it wouldn't be "acceptable" to say them out loud I stuffed them and ignored the vulnerabilities they might lead to. This time around it ALL came out and ALL got addressed and ALL of the ickiness is being dealt with, mostly in IC.

 

Again, it all boils down to whether one really wants a fully "F" FWS and a fully recovered marraige, or whether one just wants to stay married and make sure the "bad" spouse never forgets how bad they are. I can see the appeal of the latter for a BS....but it isn;t a marriage I would want....nor would my husband.

[janedoe67]

I cannot imagine forcing a BS to endure hearing sappiness. That would just be cruel. In fact, I think dwelling on sappiness is a hindrance to a WS's recovery as well. It may have nothing to do really - on a forum - with anything except trying to get it out and examine it and then put it aside. I know that was something I didn't do at first. I knew that I wasn't "supposed to" feel X or Y, so I sure wasn't supposed to express X or Y, but I still had questions about X or Y....and they just stayed there, inside, shoved way down, niggling.

 

It is very hard to balance the absolute need to "defog" and crush the fantasy with the need some people do have to get all the demons out, so to speak. That is one reason I think that a WS needs to find a good, anti-A IC. To expect a BS to hear some of those questions and things is just cruel (of course if they want to hear it all then the WS needs to be 100% transparent).

 

My own experiences have taught me that - for ME - simply changing outside behavior wasn't enough. Real change meant inward change. And that meant real work from the inside out. For some people, just acting different is enough, but I needed something deeper, and because of our additional struggles, so did H. But you are right. Everyone is different, and everyone has different visions of what they want THEIR marriage to be.

[loveofhorses1970]

I, too, am an xOW. I'm not proud of it. I met my xMM in 2010. He didn't tell me he was married/separated, until a week later when he was going back to W. I had no further contact with him. He contacted me in June 2013 wanting to be friends. He had divorced W in 2012 but said she talked him into moving back home for the kids after another relationship he had broke down. It went from friendship talking, to sexual conversations, to eventually meeting in person. I have a strong moral background, so I'm shocked and surprised I let myself fall into this situation. After the sexual encounter, the guilt is killing us both and we've ended it. He's now trying to make it work with his ex-wife and I'm trying to rebuild myself. It's hard. I don't know what makes us as humans act the way we do. My fear is he will be back and it scares me to death.

[yellowmaverick]

Um, I don't think it takes a genius to know, in general, what someone liked about an A. Attention, affection, all about me, no cares (except getting caught), no discussions about bills or laundry, more attention, compliments, etc. No, that's pretty easy to comprehend.

 

The "why" a BS wants to know is how you did that without thinking about your spouse, your kids, your history with your family. How were you (the royal you, not you Jane) so selfish, so wrapped up in your desire to have some attention by someone you don't really know (I'm speaking in the beginning of the A now) that you could just forget about the person at home - the one that loves you, that you promised to take care of and protect - and do whatever you wanted. How is it possible to think even for a second that what you are doing is ok or that it won't hurt that bad if you are caught? How can you continue the affair, and lie directly to that person's face day in and day out without a care in the world except getting what you want. This is what a BS wants to know, and the only answer that ever comes up is "I don't know. I was selfish." Yeah, we get that.

 

I've had plenty of men hit on me, and some of them were quite attractive. A few I even felt that little 'spark' for. But I always, ALWAYS, remembered that I had a husband at home, and that doing anything other than brushing it off and being flattered that I was hit on was flat out, unbelievably WRONG.

 

So you're right - no one is interested in just how wonderful the affair was when it was happening. We are all well aware of how fun new relationships are. We had one with our WSs once. We are interested in just how it's even possible to behave the way a WS behaves and look at oneself in the mirror. How is it possible to compartmentalize to the point that you find yourself in bed with another person and think 'hey, I deserve this' without feeling like you've become a monster. I've yet to gain a clear understanding on that.

 

Sorry if you need cotton in your mouth due to this response. Respectfully, there are a great many things that are said here that a great many BSs have to hold their tongue on. Don't feel alone.

 

Beautifully said.

[thecharade]

Unfortunately the BSs dominate the other forum, as well.

[sweet_pea]

As usual, BSs have scared him off. And as for keeping cotton wool in their mouths, that hardly happens they just get deleted.

 

Come back OP?

 

Oh nevermind, I don't even know why I ask.

Edited September 30, 2013 by sweet_pea
not worth it, some people are just...

[Betterthanthis13]

If a person is scared off or runs away from things they do not want to hear, I think that is possibly a bad sign for their character and integrity. It's not scary to politely disagree, unless a person is ruled by fear. In that case, it is not the job of the people who disagree with them to be quiet and not disagree with them. It is their job to seek therapy or look for a solution to their lack of courage and their probable self esteem problem so they can start living their life authentically and not be afraid to stand up for their beliefs

[crederer]

all I hear is "blah blah blah, woe is me, I want my cake and i want to eat it too, but I feel bad about it cause I'm a poor victim".

[Spark1111]

Oh, idk, OP.......

 

I think an affair is the perennial, perfect and perpetual THIRD DATE: Everyone is perfectly groomed, candles are lit, both are hanging on every word with adoring eyes, and countless romantic texts and calls have set the stage for this very special night.

 

it's damn near perfect, romantically.

 

Why not bring that home, to your wife?

 

Imagine she is walking out the door to be with the man of her dreams. WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO STOP HER?

 

bring the flowers, cards, candles, wine, respect and appreciation into your marriage and see what happens.

 

you may be pleasantly surprised is you woo your wife like you did your lover.

 

Most are.

[Spark1111]

In therapy, my angry out of love spouse learned an amazing fact: It was NOT what he wasn't getting from the marriage....It was what he had stopped giving to it that precipitated the crisis.

 

Why do we never fall out of love with our children? because we invest 100 percent into them emotionally every single day.

 

A marriage is no different.

 

The more you invest, the more in love you feel. Pretty simple.

[Got it]

In therapy, my angry out of love spouse learned an amazing fact: It was NOT what he wasn't getting from the marriage....It was what he had stopped giving to it that precipitated the crisis.

 

Why do we never fall out of love with our children? because we invest 100 percent into them emotionally every single day.

 

A marriage is no different.

 

The more you invest, the more in love you feel. Pretty simple.

 

Because we are not sexually attracted to them. You may not fall out of love with your spouse in a similar manner as you do your children but the sexually attraction can absolutely go away and no amount of willing it is going to bring it back. It is like trying to get yourself revved up over your brother/sister. Shudder.

[janedoe67]

Spark111, I agree in theory. If the WS put half as much energy into the M as he did the A, the rewards would be great.

 

But the fact is he just doesn't feel that way about his W anymore. He feels that for someone else. What can be done about that?

 

This WS put all that energy and more into her marriage....for years, WITH clear communication of the problems. H flat didn't care or didn't want to change anything.

 

None of that excuses my horrible choice to have an A.

 

I just get tired of the assumption that the WS must have just laid around and done nothing or never spoke up. Again, I get why that belief is more comfortable, but it isn't always the case.

[waterwoman]

. Again, I get why that belief is more comfortable, but it isn't always the case.

 

Jane, that is the biggest problem with this site, and many many others. We all project, we all use broad brush statements. By their very nature they can't always be accurate. I am getting a sore tongue from holding it so hard when I constantly see statements regarding BS saying 'they do this' or 'they do that' when this one DID NOT!

 

And some people just don't hear what others say over the deafening hoofbeats of their own favourite hobby horse!