Girls Harsher Critics Of The Female Body?

[MrCastle]

But you don't KNOW that she is. Unless you are obsessively tracking a girl's eating and exercise routines, you have no idea if she's living unhealthy. You have no way of knowing if a girl with a "healthy" body is living a healthy lifestyle. Unless you are their doctor, and they are tracking such things, you have no idea.

 

A month or two ago I was 113 pounds, the skinniest I have ever been. I "looked" healthier than I do now at 121 pounds. I was also anxious to the point of never sleeping, ate a slice of chocolate cake every other day, and barely exercised. Now, I look fatter, but my food intake is back to "no deserts absolutely ever, Subway salads only," I am constantly taking long walks and doing push-ups, and my sleep schedule is back on track.

 

Looking at my body, you would have no idea about any of that. Does "healthy looking" me sound particularly healthy to you?

 

No. So let's stop assuming we can guess someone's health by how they look, or by what body type they have. And more importantly, can we PLEASE stop saying that one is more attractive than the other??

 

Tell me, what made you feel that being 113 lbs made you look healthier?

 

And yes, people can "look" healthier than others. If your hair is thinning, if your cheeks are sucked in, if I can see your rib cage, I'm going to assume you are unhealthy.

[verhrzn]

Tell me, what made you feel that being 113 lbs made you look healthier?

 

And yes, people can "look" healthier than others. If your hair is thinning, if your cheeks are sucked in, if I can see your rib cage, I'm going to assume you are unhealthy.

 

But some people's rib cage are showing even when they are at a perfectly healthy weight. It's because that's just how their bodies are. I have no idea where you are seeing pictures of women with hollow cheeks... are you perhaps confusing images from the fashion industry with the Holocaust??

 

And I looked healthier because I looked fitter. I got quite a few responses from people that said I just looked more awake/active/fitter.

[MrCastle]

Alright, V. I think we've exhausted this conversation. I'd like to put focus back on the thread topic if you don't mind.

[RiverRunning]

I've always heard the phrase, "Women want to look good for other women." It is jealousy a lot of the time; and I'd imagine women start bringing up all of these flaws in a bid to 'persuade' a guy to look more closely. "Why do you want someone who looks like her, when you can want someone like me?"

 

It does get draining to be constantly overlooked. I'll admit to picking apart my sister-in-law's sister once years ago. We're now in our mid-20s but have known each other for about 15 years. This girl went out with every single guy I was ever interested in. To this day I'll maintain that she has little personality and she's stuck up.

 

I was invisible to these guys: and by virtue of simply being (and being a thin woman with average looks. About 5'6" and 100 pounds), she managed to snag every single one. Granted, this was high school: but even as adults she's had little trouble at all getting guys. I've had to beg for male attention my entire life.

 

I do regret getting angry about her appearance and tearing it down (I never said it to her). I realized afterward that I was angry and jealous that she always got attention, that men would literally stop talking to me and immediately flock to her when she walked into a room, and that I grew up living in her shadow. She was pretty, and pretty was valued.

 

She could say, "So-and-so is interested in me," and it was believable. Throughout my life, if I were to say I thought someone was interested in me, the response was inevitably: "...Are you sure? Are you SURE it wasn't just x, y, z?"

 

And this is from men and women.

 

I can say when I was younger (18 on down), men were the most cruel about my looks. As I have gotten older, it's predominantly been much older women (50s, 60s, 70s). I'll never forget a waitress telling me I needed to order a salad - ostensibly because of my weight.

 

I have never heard women my own age say anything critical about me.

[Lonely Ronin]

How so? If you're saying "THIS body type is attractive, THIS is not" even if you're replacing "skinny" with "curvy" it's still placing a beauty standard. It's still putting social pressure on women to adhere to what is attractive, aka, THIS body type (curvy.) Most women do NOT fit into either group, so how is replacing one for the other better?

 

A Healthy 'appearance' is attractive V. The best way to define healthy imo is a by BMI (properly measured).

[verhrzn]

A Healthy 'appearance' is attractive V. The best way to define healthy imo is a by BMI (properly measured).

 

Again, did my "healthy" apperance sound very health to you? At 113 pounds, I was in the very middle, normal side of BMI, and yet by any stretch of the imagination I was NOT healthy.

 

Now, to the topic: I think RiverRunning makes a good point that women do so out of jealousy towards men paying attention to other women. Like I said, it's an issue of trying to gain back validation and control by attacking the most valuable asset a woman has: her looks.

[xxoo]

So they should follow what guys like you say instead? Where does that leave the skinny girls, the less-curved girls? It's just another form of body judgement, it's just another beauty standard to uphold.

 

Maybe Alba hated her curves because guys wouldn't leave her alone. Maybe she hated them because a guy she dated told her she had a fat ass. Maybe she just doesn't like her own appearance with curves. It could have something to do with the "fashion industry," but that's only speculation.

 

Maybe she shouldn't change her body because of men's opinions. Isn't that what we should really be striving for? To stop accepting our bodies based on what OTHERS think of them? Saying "well I have an ass that men love" is just another form of loving your body ONLY because other people like it.... It's the same thing the fashion industry is doing, just with another body type.

 

Maybe the solution is not to stop listening to what magazines say, but what ANYBODY says about our own body. Maybe the solution is for women to stop changing themselves based on what society, or men, say is attractive.

 

Of course, whenever that line of thinking is followed, then you start getting guys complaining how women are fat, and ugly, and lesbians, for not being what they find attractive. And hey it's not men being judgmental... men are just VISUAL, they can't HELP it.

 

So it's rather a deep trap for women, isn't it?

 

No need to fall into the trap, V.

 

Women don't need to please "men". It is impossible to be what every man wants, anyway, because men don't all want the same thing. I'm too skinny for a lot of men--ask me if I care? I don't care. Not one bit.

 

Some men like my body a whole lot. That's enough.

 

I've been aware since high school, however, that far more girls/women envy my body than men prefer it. Women want to be thin more than men want women to be thin, from my perspective. Women judge jiggle, cellulite, fat butts and thighs that men LOVE.

[Zed]

Some Heterosexual women can be cruel to each other because, for some, there is an intense underlying competition in obtaining the attention and affection of men. That is really the governing drive. It takes a lot of effort to get out of the scarcity mindset that has been bred into women through society and culture that spans centuries. Our worth is based on looks, vitality and youth and since many women want to have children and marriage, why not cut your competition down to size. And women can feed into obtaining valuable social currency so that they can be seen the queen bee. But this latter explanation is not unique to women, men to it also, so that can be seen as the top dog.

 

Still, women's shadow side should illustrate that there is no magical sugar and spice view of women. A good qualitative treaty on this subjectis the book Women's Inhumanity to Women, by a feminist (I know shocking) Phyllis Chesler who looked in depth into women's "harshness". We are human and subject to the same whims of envy, jealousy, and competition that men are. This acknowledged truth just shows that women are fallible/

[Oxy Moronovich]

No need to fall into the trap, V.

 

Women don't need to please "men". It is impossible to be what every man wants, anyway, because men don't all want the same thing. I'm too skinny for a lot of men--ask me if I care? I don't care. Not one bit.

 

Some men like my body a whole lot. That's enough.

 

I've been aware since high school, however, that far more girls/women envy my body than men prefer it. Women want to be thin more than men want women to be thin, from my perspective. Women judge jiggle, cellulite, fat butts and thighs that men LOVE.

I've noticed something about the way you post. The smarter stuff you post, the more women ignore it.

[ThaWholigan]

I've noticed something about the way you post. The smarter stuff you post, the more women ignore it.

Not all the women here do, but I hear what you're saying and I've noticed too. Same with Quiet Storm.

Edited October 9, 2012 by ThaWholigan
grammatical error

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I got to agree with V Mr. Castle. You began this thread sounding all concerned about women and the issues they face with their bodies. Then you turned to about how men are more visual and that men like what they like and that it’s all women’s fault about this and that. So lets see, men are more visual but women are much worse at judging each other on visualness? How does that work out?

 

You talk about Lindsey Lohan and Jessica Alba and make all these kind of comments about their ages and looks. You forget that a lot of these women come into the spotlight at very young ages before they are even fully grown and developed women. They are fawned over and given spotlights in the most popular of men magazines as soon as they turn 18 and when their 18 year old bodies begin to fill out into a fully mature woman’s body, they get speared about all the weight they gained or how they are looking older. This doesn’t just happen among women. This happens among men as well. As you have highlighted for us. You think only women today are into celebrity culture? No way. It’s strange how celebrity culture has become a past time for both women AND men today.

 

I am able to acknowledge the harm in industry that are female geared and target women. How come it’s so hard for men to admit the part they play and the media they support that also sends equally damaging messages to women? That is truly what I don’t understand. I know Cosmo mag is crap. I know that the fashion industry sets up unrealistic ideas about bodies. That’s why I don’t by Cosmo and that’s why I don’t starve myself. But I also know that women get a lot of crap on both sides from men and women. I know men play their part. I know that magazines like Maxim and Playboy do their own harm. I know that this isn’t about men just loving womens’ bodies and women being the only issue here. What about you? When do men start to take a look at what they do that contributes to the unrealistic expectations and take responsibility for that? I stopped looking at Cosmo a long time ago. What man here has stopped promoting media that defines female beauty themselves?

 

As for who runs what, men are largely still a dominate presence in many industries, even fashion ones. And they aren’t all gay. Men are largely the ones running the world since most CEOs and heads of companies still out rank women at a ridiculous level. Do you know what the highest earning female actress made in 2011? It was Kristin Stewart and she made 34.5 million. Do you know what the top earning male actor made in 2011? It was apparently Leonardo Di Caprio at $77 million. That is a huge pay disparity even for successful actors and actresses.

 

While a lot of women are involved with running the fashion industry, to claim that this is the only place where we get messages from or that the majority of people running the show on women’s looks is other women, shows a lack of foresight and a lack of wanting to understand how involved men are in on this as well. And shows a lack of understanding about who remains to be the gender that still obtains and holds the real power house positions.

I think there is a huge issue with what women’s magazines and the likes of that tell women .But I also know there are huge issues with a lot of male media too. Why is that not being acknowledged? Why are you ignoring things like Maxim in favor of

[threebyfate]

Why are you ignoring things like Maxim in favor of

And a knock out punch!

 

A link to Maxim's top 100 hottest women. If any of you guys say that any of these women are even close to being heavy where realistically the vast majority are underweight on this list, yeah, do tell how realistic men are about women's bodies.

[MrCastle]

And a knock out punch!

 

A link to Maxim's top 100 hottest women. If any of you guys say that any of these women are even close to being heavy where realistically the vast majority are underweight on this list, yeah, do tell how realistic men are about women's bodies.

 

That's quite an assumption on your part based on virtually no facts at all. Just by looking at those thumbnails, and my knowledge of some of the women in question, a lot of them are known for their bust sizes or hip sizes. Which then would confirm the belief that most men prefer women with curves. I see few, if any on that list of 100 that I would consider "underweight" or unhealthy by any means.

[threebyfate]

That's quite an assumption on your part based on virtually no facts at all. Just by looking at those thumbnails, and my knowledge of some of the women in question, a lot of them are known for their bust sizes or hip sizes. Which then would confirm the belief that most men prefer women with curves. I see few, if any on that list of 100 that I would consider "underweight"

So these are the curvy, healthy weight women all you men are talking about?

[verhrzn]

That's quite an assumption on your part based on virtually no facts at all. Just by looking at those thumbnails, and my knowledge of some of the women in question, a lot of them are known for their bust sizes or hip sizes. Which then would confirm the belief that most men prefer women with curves. I see few, if any on that list of 100 that I would consider "underweight" or unhealthy by any means.

 

Again, "curves" are not dictated by weight. Depending on genetics and fat distribution, you could have an incredibly skinny girl with a giant bust size. Or you could have an "overweight" woman with a technically small waist (defined by her rib cage.) Curves have little to do with weight.

 

Okay real-life example: my friend has big boobs. Like, E cups. A few years ago she got breast reduction surgery since her boobs were causing back issues, so she had them reduced to a C cup.. It's been about... 4 or 5 years since then. Her weight and other body proportions haven't really changed, but her boobs are actually growing back. She's now wearing DD cups again.

 

All we are saying is stop equating weight with curves. Curves are independent of weight. Fat women can be straight, skinny women can have curves.

[Oxy Moronovich]

OP, I think women are harsher toward women than men. Just look at female social relationships. For instance, why are there fewer all-female groups and organizations in business, arts, entertainment, sports, etc. than there are all-male groups?

 

Why are the most popular female musicians either solo or in mixed gender music groups?

 

Why are there fewer all-female social clubs than all-male social clubs?

 

Why are there more businesses started by an individual woman or in a mixed gender business group than all-female businesses?

 

When I'm at the park, my buddies and I will just start playing soccer for fun. I see guys also doing frisbee or playing basketball. Women will just be sitting together, many times doing little to no talking whatsoever.

 

There are few all-female groups. As a result, women really don't bond together they way males do. They're too busy being catty and jealous. Serious observation: the phenomenon of women who say, "I only have male friends because because females are catty." is widespread. I've never heard men say they only have female friends cuz males are catty.

 

mesmerized, who says men are harsher when criticizing women is one of these women. If men are harsher at criticizing women, then why does she have only guy friends?

Not all the women here do, but I hear what you're saying and I've noticed too. Same with Quiet Storm.

QS too has good posts that get ignored.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

That's quite an assumption on your part based on virtually no facts at all. Just by looking at those thumbnails, and my knowledge of some of the women in question, a lot of them are known for their bust sizes or hip sizes. Which then would confirm the belief that most men prefer women with curves. I see few, if any on that list of 100 that I would consider "underweight" or unhealthy by any means.

 

As V pointed out to you previously, men only like "curves" when the fit into a regimented ideal and approval of the kind of curves men like..big breasts, big butt, small little waist. Except most women don't really have that body type. Most women aren't Barbie dolls. most women gain weight in other areas other then their breasts and butts. Some gain it in their arms and thighs, others gain it in their hips or stomachs. So don't say that liking "curves" means you like real women. You only like "curves" when they are the right "curves". But most women don't look like celebrities because there is a reason those wome nare celebrities. And to me, if you think a celebrity is a good depictions of the average woman, I got to ask where you live.

[Anela]

I've noticed something about the way you post. The smarter stuff you post, the more women ignore it.

 

Some of us weren't around to see what you quoted, before you read it.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

your a bitch

 

Damn! That isn't enough material to work with for Mme to make a Haiku out of!

[MrCastle]

I got to agree with V Mr. Castle. You began this thread sounding all concerned about women and the issues they face with their bodies. Then you turned to about how men are more visual and that men like what they like and that it’s all women’s fault about this and that. So lets see, men are more visual but women are much worse at judging each other on visualness? How does that work out?

 

I'm responding to this one more time, and then no longer. I guess the past 3 pages I spent talking to V weren't enough; so one more, and we move on.

 

The thread topic--the basis of this thread, the focus of this thread, the main point of this thread; was talking about how critical women are of other women's looks. They are much more detailed in their critiques of women. There is no doubt both sexes contribute to the unfair physical expectations of the female body, the conversation then moved to who was more responsible, and what their agenda was.

 

My concern is for women who feel the need to lose extreme amounts of weight in order to fit this mold--developing these severe eating disorders to fulfill an image that most men do not even find attractive. Looking sickly is not attractive. Being skinny is one thing, being scary skinny and crash dieting to look a certain way is another.

 

Men are visual, but as even some women have said in here, women are usually worse when it comes to bringing a woman down about her looks. They're sharper and more critical in their attacks. Some women have said it's done out of jealousy/competition/etc, but in any event, I think since women have the same thought process as their opponent, they know what to say or do to mentally destroy a woman's body image.

[verhrzn]

I'm responding to this one more time, and then no longer. I guess the past 3 pages I spent talking to V weren't enough; so one more, and we move on.

 

The thread topic--the basis of this thread, the focus of this thread, the main point of this thread; was talking about how critical women are of other women's looks. They are much more detailed in their critiques of women. There is no doubt both sexes contribute to the unfair physical expectations of the female body, the conversation then moved to who was more responsible, and what their agenda was.

 

My concern is for women who feel the need to lose extreme amounts of weight in order to fit this mold--developing these severe eating disorders to fulfill an image that most men do not even find attractive. Looking sickly is not attractive. Being skinny is one thing, being scary skinny and crash dieting to look a certain way is another.

 

Men are visual, but as even some women have said in here, women are usually worse when it comes to bringing a woman down about her looks. They're sharper and more critical in their attacks. Some women have said it's done out of jealousy/competition/etc, but in any event, I think since women have the same thought process as their opponent, they know what to say or do to mentally destroy a woman's body image.

 

But we are examining WHY women are more critical. WHY do women feel the need to degrade other women's looks. The number one subject of attacks are looks. If you are not interested in the why, then why create the thread? Just to confirm that women are mean old bitches, and men are not as shallow as portrayed?

 

The WHY is what we're trying to get at. And the WHY is that women feel the need to compete for men's validation and affections, and fit into a narrow range of acceptable body types as defined by men.

 

If you fundamentally disagree with this, then please explain why you think women do this to each other. Just for fun? Because women are by nature heartless and jealous?

[MrCastle]

As V pointed out to you previously, men only like "curves" when the fit into a regimented ideal and approval of the kind of curves men like..big breasts, big butt, small little waist. Except most women don't really have that body type. Most women aren't Barbie dolls. most women gain weight in other areas other then their breasts and butts. Some gain it in their arms and thighs, others gain it in their hips or stomachs. So don't say that liking "curves" means you like real women. You only like "curves" when they are the right "curves". But most women don't look like celebrities because there is a reason those wome nare celebrities. And to me, if you think a celebrity is a good depictions of the average woman, I got to ask where you live.

 

Stop assuming you know what I like because you don't. I never said girls had to have super skinny waists in addition to a big ass or big boobs. Stop trying to have an argument that no one is having. You and V are debating against points that were never made by me or any other men in here. I get you and her are mad at the female body expectations in the media, but don't take it out on us, especially guys like me who are fighting for women to ignore said images and start eating. You've got the wrong guy. Stop derailing this thread.

[Anela]

Damn! That isn't enough material to work with for Mme to make a Haiku out of!

 

angry dude will soon be banned dude.

[ThaWholigan]

All I'm getting from this thread is that it's men's fault. I guess that's settled then .

[threebyfate]

For fun, I looked up the top ten on Maxim's list. Here are their BMIs where healthy and normal weight spans BMIs of 18.5 - 24.9:

 

1. 18.5
   
2. 19.6
   
3. 19.7
   
4. 18.2
   
5. 19
   
6. 18.6
   
7. 17.4
   
8. 18.4
   
9. 19.3
   
10. 18.1
    

 

40% of these women are underweight and none of them exceed 19.7 in BMI. So yeah, women judge other women more harshly than men do. Mmhmmm...what's wrong with this picture?