Girls Harsher Critics Of The Female Body?

[Els]

Women (generally) focus more on details, men (generally) focus more on the general picture. I don't think one is necessarily 'harsher' than the other. I think women are harsher or more nitpicky critics of 'fashion' in general, but when it comes to the female 'body', sometimes I think everyone is just trying to outshine one another in terms of cruelty... and succeeding.

[BetheButterfly]

I was allowed to drop out of school because of bullying, from both girls and boys. It mostly came from girls, but the boys did nothing to help - most of them looked at me like I were something to be tolerated, but there was a general "ew" attitude. Even this guy I had a crush on (initially), said nothing, when he could have - he liked me, too, we saw each other a lot outside of school, since we lived next-door to each other, and our mothers were friends. At school, he acted like he barely knew me. He asked after me after I dropped out, and asked me out almost five months later, but he couldn't stand up for me when I needed help.

 

I am sorry you got bullied in school. That is horrible!

 

I got bullied in Sunday School at church when I was 10 years old... I was wearing glasses.. had since I was 6 years old. Some boys said I was ugly and drew an ugly picture of me. On the way home from church, I cried and cried. My parents promised me contact lenses as soon as I was old enough. We didn't go back to that church again. They also ignored when I started taking off my glasses when I wasn't reading.

 

It's not fun to be bullied.

[grkBoy]

I was astounded when the fashion industry gave flack to Kate Upton...calling her 'fat'.

 

I honestly do think it's women who are the harsher critics and those pushing the unrealistic standards. I get this mainly from how many women are holding powerful positions in magazines, media, and fashion.

 

Two things bother me about this:

 

1) It pushes more women to hate themselves and think they're not "hot enough".

 

2) Many still blame men and think it's men who push this. I see more guys now dating chunky women, imperfect women, and most men who can't understand their GF's obsession with being skinny and beautiful...when they think their GFs are great as they are.

 

 

This is not an attack on women in general, but more a comment on the few who influence so many and yet seemingly betray what feminism pushed.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

PS - lets not pretend the way men treat women, (and the way our male controlled society raises women), has nothing to do with how women behave. Is it not nailed into women from an early age that most of their value comes from their looks?

 

Luckily this is starting to change some, but you still have some guys stuck with past mindsets, and you still have useless women who get by with their one asset being their looks.

 

I don't think the mindset is changing that much. Women have more opportunity today to chase dreams outside landing a man with their looks, but society largely still value and judge women specifically for their looks. Look at all the topics that pop on here about how worthless women are as they get older.

 

I also think women feel that pressure more so today than I think they did even 30 years ago. There is an over load of technology and media that is around today that specifically targets women and their looks. And while it's also happening more to men now, it still overwhelming tagets women specifically. So not only are we going to taget women more harshly in the media, now we are going to say that women are these terrible creatures that shoulder all the blame for it too? WTF. When do men start taking responsiblity for promoting ideals through the media they like? Why is it in a battle vs Cosmo and Playboy men think Cosmo is worse but somehow Playboy is what...healthy?

 

And I REALLY liked everything threebyfate has been saying. I can't believe anyone can actually think that women are harsher judges of other women especially after being apart of this forum for any length of time.

 

Mr.Castle, none of the women in my life make devaluing comments about other women. But many of the women in my life make devaluing comments about their own bodies. The relationship women have with their bodies is very complicated.

 

I can agree that women who are harsher judges on other women do exist. There are some on this very forum. Yet if we are going to generalize, then no, I don't agree that as a collective group women are so much harder on women than men are and that men somehow are kind toward women in ways other women aren't to other women.

 

When I was growing up, I heard more nasty comments from boys and men about my body and other girls bodies then I ever did from women. In school the boys ran around snapping the girls bras open and they thought it was hysterical. If you narked on them you weren't "cool". They had a total boy code that would exclude you if you told anyone about how you were being treated. So a lot of the girls in school put up with it. The boys also called other girls sluts and whores and snickered at them if they didn't like them exploring their sexuality. They boys talked opennly with other girls about who had nice boobs and asses and who didn't. At that age girls weren't talking about who had more money and who was more successful. At that age girls were giving more bjs then boys were ever giving oral to girls themselves. Boys ruled.

 

I remember one time getting off the school bus and boys that I had been going to school with and was friends with since kindergarden kicked me in the butt and laughed about who it shook. I rolled my eyes and laughed too and played it off but I never forgot that and I was devastated. I could relate a few more experiences but I won't. The other girls were much more supportive of each other then the guys ever where.

 

I have heard many men say horrible things about women and their bodies. I have heard men degrade their own wives and girlfriends in favor of the "bro code". So no, I don’t think women are tougher on women. I think men AND women are tougher on women. And I really resent the idea of men wanting to live in a world where they get a free pass to make judgements about women but women are somehow the more critical gender. I really resent that.

[Anela]

 

And I REALLY liked everything threebyfate has been saying. I can't believe anyone can actually think that women are harsher judges of other women especially after being apart of this forum for any length of time.

 

I have one of her comments quoted in an open window, but I should be doing other things, so I haven't had a chance to respond in the way that I wanted to (it's already 2pm, and I barely have anything done). I agree with your post, though.

[verhrzn]

Do you really think it is less harsh to call her fat or ugly? I don't.

 

As a woman, the little detail stuff comes across as pure jealousy, and hits like a feather instead of a brick (now that I'm an adult).

 

Being called ugly would hurt.

 

Besides, they don't call her fat or ugly because they know she is neither.

 

I got called ugly to my face (and back) a lot in high school by boys and girls. It hurt when girls said it because of the social implications; if other girls were directly calling you ugly, it meant you didn't have the social power to protect you. Making fun of your looks was a direct way of establishing the pecking order; you don't insult the "alpha" girl's looks, and you insult the lowest girl's looks, even if she's (by conventional standards) very attractive.

 

In the book "Queen Bees and Wannabees," the author explains that girls are made fun of by other girls for falling outside the "Be A Woman" box. This box is full of contradictory traits that girls are supposed to aspire to have, and the less you fit, the more you "deserve" to be teased. Examples of this can be: be sexy but not slutty, be attractive but only in a conventional way (which is why teenage girls would trash Christina Hendricks because, despite being gorgeous, she is not "conventional"), etc.

 

Being teased hurts regardless, but with girls it was less "Aw I'm ugly" and more "Aw I'm unpopular." If only girls are teasing you about your looks the underlying message is that they are jealous, or you're threatening/unpopular in some other way.

 

When GUYS insult your looks, it means you are ACTUALLY ugly. Which is why it hurts more. Walking around the mall on Saturday, I heard more than a few not-nice comments from teenage girls that I could just roll my eyes at ("who wears flare jeans anymore? I think older women should really dress more their age and not try to copy us," says the teen in the Twilight T-shirt) but comments from teenage guys ("God the girl in front of us has a small ass, look at that.") hurt a lot, because they weren't picking on me to feel better about themselves, that's what they actually thought.

 

So women may be crueler and more specific, but it's usually to mask a lot of other complicated social dynamics. Guys may be more blunt and "accepting" (ugh), but their comments are more truthful, and thus more painful.

[Revolver]

Why is this though? Is it jealousy or just flat out being mean?

[somedude81]

This is something I noticed as well.

 

Girls have always been far harsher on other girls than guys are.

 

Girls can criticize another girl in the same way that guys do plus more.

 

Just because girls focus on the details doesn't mean they ignore the general I've heard girls call other girls fat, ugly, small boobs, big boobs and more.

 

As bad as guys are to women, other women are still worse.

[verhrzn]

I was astounded when the fashion industry gave flack to Kate Upton...calling her 'fat'.

 

I honestly do think it's women who are the harsher critics and those pushing the unrealistic standards. I get this mainly from how many women are holding powerful positions in magazines, media, and fashion.

 

Two things bother me about this:

 

1) It pushes more women to hate themselves and think they're not "hot enough".

 

2) Many still blame men and think it's men who push this. I see more guys now dating chunky women, imperfect women, and most men who can't understand their GF's obsession with being skinny and beautiful...when they think their GFs are great as they are.

 

 

This is not an attack on women in general, but more a comment on the few who influence so many and yet seemingly betray what feminism pushed.

 

But the reason women attack other women is because they see each other as competition for men. Women are still judged by men primarily (NOT entirely) on their looks, which means it's the first thing to be attacked. In societies where sexual purity is the top seller, it's how "slutty" or "non-virginal" a girl is that draws attacks from other girls.

 

Attacking another girl's looks is a way to gain power over her, because it decreases her value in the eyes of men, and (hopefully) increases the attractiveness of the attacker in the eyes of men.

 

Men are the prize; men are the people who give out the validations. Women attack other women's looks because that's the thing they think men value. The less women consider men the "prize," and the less they need validation from men, the less they engage in these violent girl-on-girl behaviors.

 

Think of it as the negative equivalent of two girls making out at a party for the benefit of the men in the room.

[somedude81]

@ the above

 

Women are crazy.

[verhrzn]

@ the above

 

Women are crazy.

 

No, women are just socialized differently. To put it in really simplistic terms, when guys have issues with each other, they can punch each other and let out their violence in socially-acceptable ways. Women cannot, so resort to subtle social violence.

 

People are crazy, it just appears in different ways.

[sweetjasmine]

Attacking another girl's looks is a way to gain power over her, because it decreases her value in the eyes of men, and (hopefully) increases the attractiveness of the attacker in the eyes of men.

 

Men are the prize; men are the people who give out the validations. Women attack other women's looks because that's the thing they think men value. The less women consider men the "prize," and the less they need validation from men, the less they engage in these violent girl-on-girl behaviors.

 

Think of it as the negative equivalent of two girls making out at a party for the benefit of the men in the room.

 

This is a good way of putting it, verhrzn.

 

It also captures why it usually feels different when men make negative comments than when other women do.

[verhrzn]

This is a good way of putting it, verhrzn.

 

It also captures why it usually feels different when men make negative comments than when other women do.

 

I think of it as the stereotypical situation where a girl says to her mother," Mom, the other girls are school are making fun of my looks."

"Oh, hun, they're just jealous."

 

Now try it with the different genders:

"Mom, the boys in school are making fun of my looks."

"Oh, hun, they're just jealous."

 

The second one just doesn't make sense. I think the typical response is "Oh hun that means they like you." (You wanna find the origin of the whole 'Women like jerks,' THIS is it; girls being taught that a guy being mean to them means he likes them.)

 

My own mother, who is a fairly blunt person, told me instead," Oh, the boys make fun of you because you don't fit the conventional standard of attraction, just like me. The girls make fun of you because they can."

[TheBigQuestion]

Two things.

 

1. I'm completely baffled at the assertion that LS is some sort of haven for PUAs. There are a few posters here who have read some of the literature, but I read these boards pretty regularly and I can only identify two self-described PUAs. The same goes for the accusations of widespread misogyny. I can only think of ONE poster here who seems to harbor a genuine, true-blue belief that women's position in society needs to be obliterated back to the stone age and that they are all inferior creatures worthy of regular derision. I quite frankly am sick of people slinging this accusation in such a cavalier manner. If a male poster says anything even remotely suggesting that some, most, or all women possess some negative characteristic that is unique to women or more prevalent in women, there always seems to be a few posters who go straight to that accusation in an attempt to distract from a decent conversation. For Exhibit A of this phenomenon, just look at this thread. It should be obvious that criticism of women does not equal hatred of women, but apparently a lot of people on LS never got that memo. I suppose it's a lot easier to stifle the flow of thought by the use of an inflammatory buzz word that is largely devoid of meaning than by actually engaging in the conversation.

 

2. To answer the thread question, I don't really know if women are by and large more harsh in their criticisms of fellow women. However, the beauty and fashion standards which both men and women use as benchmarks by which to criticize women are largely dictated and created by two groups of people: (1) gay men; and (2) women. What this suggests to me is that women should think twice about who their actual "oppressors" are, and choose where to direct their indignation over unrealistic/unreasonable beauty standards accordingly.

[Imported]

But the reason women attack other women is because they see each other as competition for men. Women are still judged by men primarily (NOT entirely) on their looks, which means it's the first thing to be attacked. In societies where sexual purity is the top seller, it's how "slutty" or "non-virginal" a girl is that draws attacks from other girls.

 

Attacking another girl's looks is a way to gain power over her, because it decreases her value in the eyes of men, and (hopefully) increases the attractiveness of the attacker in the eyes of men.

 

Men are the prize; men are the people who give out the validations. Women attack other women's looks because that's the thing they think men value. The less women consider men the "prize," and the less they need validation from men, the less they engage in these violent girl-on-girl behaviors.

 

Think of it as the negative equivalent of two girls making out at a party for the benefit of the men in the room.

 

 

Sounds like you're saying it's mens fault that women are so mean to each other.

 

@ the above

 

Women are crazy.

 

 

I agree, women are crazy.

[verhrzn]

2. To answer the thread question, I don't really know if women are by and large more harsh in their criticisms of fellow women. However, the beauty and fashion standards which both men and women use as benchmarks by which to criticize women are largely dictated and created by two groups of people: (1) gay men; and (2) women. What this suggests to me is that women should think twice about who their actual "oppressors" are, and choose where to direct their indignation over unrealistic/unreasonable beauty standards accordingly.

 

So, the guy who wrote a letter to a news anchor shaming her for daring to appear fat on TV was gay? Or the guys on this board who say that fat chicks don't count as people, are women? And gay men/women are all in charge of advertising and media?

 

It is fascinating to me, these harbors of power for gay men/women, able to dictate such a wide-ranging social attitude. Out of curiosity, what is their purposes for institution such stringent body standards? Why in the world do gay men or women care what other women look like?

[Els]

But the reason women attack other women is because they see each other as competition for men. Women are still judged by men primarily (NOT entirely) on their looks, which means it's the first thing to be attacked. In societies where sexual purity is the top seller, it's how "slutty" or "non-virginal" a girl is that draws attacks from other girls.

 

Attacking another girl's looks is a way to gain power over her, because it decreases her value in the eyes of men, and (hopefully) increases the attractiveness of the attacker in the eyes of men.

 

Men are the prize; men are the people who give out the validations. Women attack other women's looks because that's the thing they think men value. The less women consider men the "prize," and the less they need validation from men, the less they engage in these violent girl-on-girl behaviors.

 

Think of it as the negative equivalent of two girls making out at a party for the benefit of the men in the room.

 

I think this makes a lot of sense, though I don't think it excuses either gender for what they do. Attacking someone out of jealousy or pecking order is equally as bad as attacking someone out of thoughtlessness and bluntness, IMO. Really, in an ideal world, both genders would just keep their verbal diarrheoa inside where it belongs, instead of spewing crap about other people's bodies... but that isn't going to happen anytime soon, is it?

[verhrzn]

Sounds like you're saying it's mens fault that women are so mean to each other.

 

I agree, women are crazy.

 

Fault is not a word I'd use. It's too simplistic. But considering that most of Western history and society has been arranged to satisfy men's needs, with men in positions of power, it's a pretty logical and obvious explanation.

 

Think of Jews selling out other Jews during World War 2, or African American sneering at "welfare queens." The less power a social group has, the more they will turn against each other to achieve power.

 

Since women have historically found power only in their youth and beauty, that is what is attacked about other women.

[somedude81]

No, women are just socialized differently. To put it in really simplistic terms, when guys have issues with each other, they can punch each other and let out their violence in socially-acceptable ways. Women cannot, so resort to subtle social violence.

 

People are crazy, it just appears in different ways.

No, it's not socially-acceptable for guys to let out their violence in physical ways. When was the last time you actually saw guys fighting?

 

Honestly, I think I've seen more actual girl x girl fights then guy x guy.

[ThaWholigan]

Okay, then - so it's men's fault that girls judge themselves harshly and have low self-esteem?

[verhrzn]

I think this makes a lot of sense, though I don't think it excuses either gender for what they do. Attacking someone out of jealousy or pecking order is equally as bad as attacking someone out of thoughtlessness and bluntness, IMO. Really, in an ideal world, both genders would just keep their verbal diarrheoa inside where it belongs, instead of spewing crap about other people's bodies... but that isn't going to happen anytime soon, is it?

 

Completely agreed. I'm not saying it's a GOOD thing for women to do, just explaining why I think it happens based on my studies of teenage bullying. The good news is, most women seem to grow out of it.... again, once they divorce the idea of gaining power and acceptance through validation from men. I find the more self-assured a woman is, the less she needs to take down another woman's looks.

[verhrzn]

No, it's not socially-acceptable for guys to let out their violence in physical ways. When was the last time you actually saw guys fighting?

 

Honestly, I think I've seen more actual girl x girl fights then guy x guy.

 

Two weeks ago at a party. And I didn't say it happens MORE. Just that guys throwing punches is excused as "what guys do," and physical violence from women is seen as abnormal.

 

Okay, then - so it's men's fault that girls judge themselves harshly and have low self-esteem?

 

That is a simplistic explanation. The idea of "fault" should not have a place in discussions of society. An entire gender cannot be at fault; society is built by everyone, through everyone. The ONLY correlation you could draw is that since men (by and large) have controlled western society, and these behaviors have historical roots, then men are contributed to these social problems to a larger extent than women have.

 

It's similar to racism. Are white people responsible for racism in society? No. Do non-white people contribute to society's racist ideas? Absolutely. But since white people have more privilege and power, then they hold the greater responsibility for examining and eradicating racism behaviors.

 

It's the idea that the social group with the most power in society has the greatest impact on social ideas.

[Revolver]

Okay, then - so it's men's fault that girls judge themselves harshly and have low self-esteem?

 

It's always men's fault

[TheBigQuestion]

So, the guy who wrote a letter to a news anchor shaming her for daring to appear fat on TV was gay? Or the guys on this board who say that fat chicks don't count as people, are women? And gay men/women are all in charge of advertising and media?

 

It is fascinating to me, these harbors of power for gay men/women, able to dictate such a wide-ranging social attitude. Out of curiosity, what is their purposes for institution such stringent body standards? Why in the world do gay men or women care what other women look like?

 

You're clearly not firing on all cylinders today. Re-read what I wrote.

 

The examples you cited are people who are being influenced by the fashion and beauty industries. Those two industries are dominated primarily by women and gay men. And yes, most of the girly magazines out there have female CEOs and head editors.

 

As to the questions in your second paragraph, I don't have insight into the psychological motivations for why these people do what they do.

[verhrzn]

You're clearly not firing on all cylinders today. Re-read what I wrote.

 

The examples you cited are people who are being influenced by the fashion and beauty industries. Those two industries are dominated primarily by women and gay men. And yes, most of the girly magazines out there have female CEOs and head editors.

 

As to the questions in your second paragraph, I don't have insight into the psychological motivations for why these people do what they do.

 

But that's my point... it makes no sense for gay men or women to dictate how women look. Neither gay men or women have any interest in the female body, aside from selling merchandise. It just doesn't make sense for them to set the social standards of beauty. It DOES make sense for men to.

 

The standards of female beauty stretch far back into history, farther than female CEOs or openly gay men. Society was dictating how women should look back during the Roman empire, where artists, politicians and rulers were unilaterally male.

 

Our current standards for female beauty have roots in historic standards. The idea of a thin girl with a tiny waist goes back to the time of corsets. Were women CEOs and gay men in power then?

 

Your argument would make sense ONLY if beauty standards sprung, fully-formed, into society from 1970's or so on, but they've been with Western society for centuries. Why would it suddenly change, now, that they are dictated by another group?