Girls Harsher Critics Of The Female Body?

[xxoo]

But is there such a thing as naturally thin?

 

There is really no scientific evidence of it.

 

Ectomorphs?

[Eternal Sunshine]

Ectomorphs?

 

I think they are more about proportions and having light/heavy body frame - rather than being overweight or not.

[oaks]

But is there such a thing as naturally thin?

 

There is really no scientific evidence of it.

 

I'm not "unnaturally thin", yet I'm thin. Must be natural, right?

 

Maybe I don't understand the question.

[xxoo]

I think they are more about proportions and having light/heavy body frame - rather than being overweight or not.

 

We also have difficulty putting on fat and muscle.

[Taramere]

I think as a general rule women are more alert to other women's physical flaws....and often for the purposes of competitiveness. I find shows like the Next Top Model franchise compelling viewing, even though the judges and commentators on them annoy me.

 

Here you have these naturally beautiful girls who have got it all, physically. Long legs, slim waists, photogenic faces...and they're torn apart by often quite squat and not very attractive fashionistas who have managed to make their opinion count as a result of getting a career in making clothes, marketing products etc. Members of the public join in with it, describing almost flawlessly beautiful girls as "ugly" "boring" "too commercial" "too glamour" "common" or "not edgy enough". What does a person like that think or feel when they go to examine their own reflection? They must be filled with self loathing or self delusion (or both) if they can so easily condemn the appearance of an exceptionally pretty 18 year old girl.

 

With women, the criticism often does tend to be extended towards women who are liable to be quite widely considered beautiful or attractive....and some men will tend to pick up on that catty approach and run with it. Often men who are gay (as can be seen on the Top Model programmes) or men who just don't have a very high libido - whether naturally or as a result of age - and want to use the "women aren't attractive enough" excuse rather than owning the low libido problem.

 

I don't know that a random man would be any more likely than a random woman to pick fault with a conventionally attractive woman's appearance. I think it probably just matters more to heterosexual women when men do it...because it's men who we want to get naked and intimate with. For that reason, it's a huge turn off when we hear them making derogatory comments about the female body.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Taramere

[Els]

But is there such a thing as naturally thin?

 

There is really no scientific evidence of it.

 

Different people naturally have different metabolisms. But it is incredibly naive, bordering on ludicrous, to imagine as TBQ does that the majority of Hollywood stars are not only naturally thin, but ALSO have naturally voluptuous curves and ALSO have naturally beautiful faces and are ALSO inclined towards acting and performance. That just goes beyond all statistical credibility. Coupled with articles every so often about stars who admit to having eating disorders or following diet fads, or undergoing surgery to attain the desired curves (and those are just the ones who admit it - what about those who don't?) and no, I don't think anyone with a smidgeon of common sense could reach the conclusion that the 'majority' of Hollywood stars 'naturally look like that'. The only people I've ever heard to spout that nonsensical belief are 13-year-old boys and some LS males.

[ThaWholigan]

Nice summary Elswyth. It surprises me that ThaWholigan would take a side in this thread considering how he's normally one of the more reasonable and objective male members, capable of lifting the hood and knowing when something reeks of b/s.

 

This thread is the same as so many other threads generated by certain male members. Just another opportunity to take a run at women using nothing but anecdotes and opinions. So tired of this. Wish people would view people as individuals and if they have issues with certain women in their pasts, point their poisonous fingers at the individual women instead of the normal, retarded gender bashing.

 

It gets annoying after a while when it looks like people are saying it's men's fault. I was a bit off the boil last night .

 

I agree with your point about individuals as always. The idea that all people are doing one thing or another is a fruitless argument IMO. My point is simply that men AND women generally can be very venomous about women's body and both have a contribution albeit different. MrCastle I don't believe meant to be judgemental about women's bodies in the manner in which is being described - in my opinion.

[ThaWholigan]

Different people naturally have different metabolisms. But it is incredibly naive, bordering on ludicrous, to imagine as TBQ does that the majority of Hollywood stars are not only naturally thin, but ALSO have naturally voluptuous curves and ALSO have naturally beautiful faces and are ALSO inclined towards acting and performance. That just goes beyond all statistical credibility. Coupled with articles every so often about stars who admit to having eating disorders or following diet fads, or undergoing surgery to attain the desired curves (and those are just the ones who admit it - what about those who don't?) and no, I don't think anyone with a smidgeon of common sense could reach the conclusion that the 'majority' of Hollywood stars 'naturally look like that'. The only people I've ever heard to spout that nonsensical belief are 13-year-old boys and some LS males.

I have no doubt in my mind that a lot of stars have eating disorders. The way they yo-yo in their weight is startling. Same with surgery and other things.

 

Even small time Z-listers do it.

[TheBigQuestion]

I agree with you in general (about Maxim, and what 'men' want, which I think is way more varied than most of us give them credit for), but TBF was making a point that what the OP himself judges as a 'healthy' weight can be very far off the mark. Frankly, large breasts and hips and narrow waists are absolutely not a sound marker of 'health' by any means. It is the lifestyle that attains the body that matters - a 30-24-30 ('stick-thin', according to judgmental folk) or 36-30-35 ('fat whale', according to judgmental folk) woman who eats well, exercises well, and prioritizes her health over her appearance, is more healthy than a 36-25-34 woman who had breast and butt augmentations, goes on fad diets to keep her belly fat nonexistent, and takes amphetamine and smokes to keep her appetite down.

 

Regardless, I think V gets a little too passionate about some things, but I have to agree with her in essence about the rather dubious nature of this thread. What is the purpose of making a thread about how 'harshly' women judge each other, when the OP, a male, is more than happy to take part in such judgments himself? Sure, some women may judge each other even more harshly than he, but that is hardly an excuse to give oneself a pat on the back and continue doing the same.

 

As for 'men', in general, I absolutely agree that not all or even most men share the same attitude towards women's bodies as some of the posters here.

 

The purpose of this thread was to determine, anecdotally (i.e. in the respondents' experiences generally), which gender tended to more harshly judge women based on their appearance. As far as I can tell, there was no ulterior motive for MrCastle's creation of this thread. Furthermore, the kinds of "judgments" you accuse him of making are qualitatively quite different than the judgments the thread addresses, i.e. the verbally-expressed debasement of women based on what they have or do not have physically. What MrCastle did at the very worst was express ADMIRATION for his own ideal. Again, are you or any other poster actually willing to commit to the view that these two types of "judgments" are somehow equivalent? Why is it that so many posters, both male and female, were able to answer the question without derailing the thread with this particular tangent? No one, when they answered this thread, tried to pass off their own experiences as absolute, universal fact. Most posters prefaced their answer to the simple thread question with a phrase like "in my experience."

 

And I can fathom why ThaWholigan wouldn't be taking V/DY's "side" in this thread. I do consider him quite level-headed and thus am in agreement with TBF's assessment of him. Perhaps it's for the reasons I'm posting what I do in this thread, but he can speak for himself. Frankly, if I've spent my entire life hearing about how it is the big, bad man that is more harsh, more mean, more judgmental, and more responsible for every malady that besets women in regards to their appearances, and my own experiences tell me that women have been more responsible for the more devastating and at times peculiar verbal attacks (See Taramere's example above), well, I'm going to resent being labeled as such. Same goes if the amount of vitriol I've observed was more or less equal.

 

And finally, my comment about what women in Hollywood look like naturally was not to be taken to the extremes that you did. I never at ANY point denied that a large portion of women in Hollywood are surgically enhanced or prone to having eating issues. With that said, what is so outlandish about thinking that their baseline level of attractiveness is greater than that of the average population when, for better or for worse, a large amount of that attractiveness is predicated on being thin? Did the majority of the women on that Top 100 list start off as obese or conventionally "ugly?" Are most of them really just average-looking? No. It's safe to assume that most of them are already quite more attractive than the norm.

[Taramere]

And a knock out punch!

 

A link to Maxim's top 100 hottest women. If any of you guys say that any of these women are even close to being heavy where realistically the vast majority are underweight on this list, yeah, do tell how realistic men are about women's bodies.

 

Agreed. The difficulty is that thin generally does photograph better. Especially when airbrushing and good lighting can conceal the less aesthetic aspects of being too thin. A lot of men would possibly find those particular women far less attractive in real life, due to their thinness. I recall a friend of mine saying that her husband had seen Christy Turlington in the flesh years ago (she'd been on a photo shoot in a public area). He'd been shocked by how thin she was in real life...but in photos she was undeniably beautiful.

 

Being photogenic has become more important in the last decade or so, given the amount of people who look online for dating purposes....and I think that skews things a fair bit.

[Els]

The purpose of this thread was to determine, anecdotally (i.e. in the respondents' experiences generally), which gender tended to more harshly judge women based on their appearance. As far as I can tell, there was no ulterior motive for MrCastle's creation of this thread. Furthermore, the kinds of "judgments" you accuse him of making are qualitatively quite different than the judgments the thread addresses, i.e. the verbally-expressed debasement of women based on what they have or do not have physically. What MrCastle did at the very worst was express ADMIRATION for his own ideal. Again, are you or any other poster actually willing to commit to the view that these two types of "judgments" are somehow equivalent?

 

Whether or not they are equivalent is besides the point. This thread is analogous to a shoplifter making a thread about what a shame it is that some people are embezzling millions of dollars of company funds, while he himself has no intent of stopping his shoplifting endeavours ("I am what I am, that is all there is to it.") If Castle were genuinely concerned about women being judged harshly for their appearance, he would do what he is able to help prevent that (as some posters like Wholigan actually try to do). Clearly, he isn't concerned enough to make any changes on his own behalf. So what else could the purpose of this thread be? Not terribly difficult to figure out.

 

Why is it that so many posters, both male and female, were able to answer the question without derailing the thread with this particular tangent? No one, when they answered this thread, tried to pass off their own experiences as absolute, universal fact. Most posters prefaced their answer to the simple thread question with a phrase like "in my experience."

 

Thus had I also done.

 

And I can fathom why ThaWholigan wouldn't be taking V/DY's "side" in this thread. I do consider him quite level-headed and thus am in agreement with TBF's assessment of him. Perhaps it's for the reasons I'm posting what I do in this thread, but he can speak for himself. Frankly, if I've spent my entire life hearing about how it is the big, bad man that is more harsh, more mean, more judgmental, and more responsible for every malady that besets women in regards to their appearances, and my own experiences tell me that women have been more responsible for the more devastating and at times peculiar verbal attacks (See Taramere's example above), well, I'm going to resent being labeled as such. Same goes if the amount of vitriol I've observed was more or less equal.

 

I have never claimed to be on V/DY's side in everything either, and neither have many of the others who are agreeing with them on this thread. You will see that we disagree quite a lot in other ways, yet this topic unifies us. My opinion of TW is still that of a good poster with a level head.

 

And finally, my comment about what women in Hollywood look like naturally was not to be taken to the extremes that you did. I never at ANY point denied that a large portion of women in Hollywood are surgically enhanced or prone to having eating issues. With that said, what is so outlandish about thinking that their baseline level of attractiveness is greater than that of the average population when, for better or for worse, a large amount of that attractiveness is predicated on being thin? Did the majority of the women on that Top 100 list start off as obese or conventionally "ugly?" Are most of them really just average-looking? No. It's safe to assume that most of them are already quite more attractive than the norm.

 

'Not starting out as obese' is really not the same thing as 'starting out naturally thin'. Most humans start off in the middle, which is how the entire lean body mass scale was conceived to begin with.

[verhrzn]

As I said earlier, I think both men and women can be cruel about women's bodies, but for different reasons/agendas. However, I think that men being critical of women's bodies is more insidious, and this is why:

 

We women know making comments about other women's bodies is cruel and uncalled for. No woman who does it think it's a good thing, or a good quality to have; they do it anyway, just like people smoke despite the health warnings, but no one thinks they are a good person when engaging in this behavior. If a woman does it in our presence, we know she's a jerk. If we call another woman out on it, we automatically have the higher moral ground.

 

On the flip side, it seems difficult-if not impossible-to call men out on criticizing or judging women's bodies. Mr. Castle was clearly making a judgement about Jessica Alba's body when he says it would "look better if she had more curves," and yet when told he was judging women's bodies, he and other male posters immediately started defending it.

 

Men can justify their critique of women's bodies in a way women themselves can't. "Men are visual." "It's just how men are built." "What's the big deal?" "I can't help what I'm attracted to." Etc. When a woman is criticizing another woman's body, we KNOW it's bad. But when a man is criticizing a woman's body, we lack the social power to criticize that behavior.

 

Moreover, I myself feel less upset when other women criticize my body because I know that most of the time they're doing it as a defense mechanism. They have been hurt and judged, so they will turn around and hurt and judge me. They have been criticized for their body, so they will turn around and criticize me. I pity them, more than I'm upset by them.

 

But for the life of me I cannot figure out why men are criticizing women's bodies. Why do men feel it necessary to comment or critique a woman's body? If women do it as a means of competition or projection, why do men do it?

 

Now does that mean I think men are at "fault"? Again, I think that term is simplistic. I DO think men have a responsibility to work towards changing how they interact with women.... Women, obviously, cannot do it for them. I have already tried to point out how hurtful and unrealistic the beauty standards imposed on women are, and been shut down in this very thread. So obviously women telling men to stop it is not working. Is there any logical conclusion, then, that men should maybe take responsibility for the way they justify talking about women's bodies?

[ThaWholigan]

As I said earlier, I think both men and women can be cruel about women's bodies, but for different reasons/agendas. However, I think that men being critical of women's bodies is more insidious, and this is why:

 

We women know making comments about other women's bodies is cruel and uncalled for. No woman who does it think it's a good thing, or a good quality to have; they do it anyway, just like people smoke despite the health warnings, but no one thinks they are a good person when engaging in this behavior. If a woman does it in our presence, we know she's a jerk. If we call another woman out on it, we automatically have the higher moral ground.

 

On the flip side, it seems difficult-if not impossible-to call men out on criticizing or judging women's bodies. Mr. Castle was clearly making a judgement about Jessica Alba's body when he says it would "look better if she had more curves," and yet when told he was judging women's bodies, he and other male posters immediately started defending it.

 

Men can justify their critique of women's bodies in a way women themselves can't. "Men are visual." "It's just how men are built." "What's the big deal?" "I can't help what I'm attracted to." Etc. When a woman is criticizing another woman's body, we KNOW it's bad. But when a man is criticizing a woman's body, we lack the social power to criticize that behavior.

 

Moreover, I myself feel less upset when other women criticize my body because I know that most of the time they're doing it as a defense mechanism. They have been hurt and judged, so they will turn around and hurt and judge me. They have been criticized for their body, so they will turn around and criticize me. I pity them, more than I'm upset by them.

 

But for the life of me I cannot figure out why men are criticizing women's bodies. Why do men feel it necessary to comment or critique a woman's body? If women do it as a means of competition or projection, why do men do it?

 

Now does that mean I think men are at "fault"? Again, I think that term is simplistic. I DO think men have a responsibility to work towards changing how they interact with women.... Women, obviously, cannot do it for them. I have already tried to point out how hurtful and unrealistic the beauty standards imposed on women are, and been shut down in this very thread. So obviously women telling men to stop it is not working. Is there any logical conclusion, then, that men should maybe take responsibility for the way they justify talking about women's bodies?

No matter how you word it, that says it is men's fault. Don't worry I'm not mad at you for saying it, maybe on some level it is. I'd rather you just say it fully to be honest .

 

This also goes back to my mammoth thread, where I suggest that men do not talk about women's bodies if it's going to cause such self-destructive thinking. Better that then.

[verhrzn]

No matter how you word it, that says it is men's fault. Don't worry I'm not mad at you for saying it, maybe on some level it is. I'd rather you just say it fully to be honest .

 

This also goes back to my mammoth thread, where I suggest that men do not talk about women's bodies if it's going to cause such self-destructive thinking. Better that then.

 

I would be a-okay with men not talking about women's bodies except in private. I think that would avoid a lot of messy social situations.

 

I STILL say "fault" is not the right word. "Fault" and "responsibility" are not the same thing. I can be responsible for someone's feelings without being at fault for something.

[ThaWholigan]

I would be a-okay with men not talking about women's bodies except in private. I think that would avoid a lot of messy social situations.

 

I STILL say "fault" is not the right word. "Fault" and "responsibility" are not the same thing. I can be responsible for someone's feelings without being at fault for something.

Perhaps the difference is who is actively attempting to disparage women, and who isn't. That narrows down responsibility and fault.

 

Regarding men talking about women's bodies (which we have gone over before ), I think it would be better avoided if that is the case. But then you have the whole thing with women then actively wanting to know what is discussed about them in private. Do we lie? Sometimes women do things like that.

 

But I suppose in this case, it really all hinges on men criticizing women's bodies in an inappropriate manner. I have myself attempted to prevent male friends from doing so in such scenarios due to lack of decorum - only to be labelled someone akin to a white knight. "White knights" seem to be disparaged by both men and women alike. Me personally, I'm not one - but that doesn't mean I have a lack of manners. So there is a price for attempting to alleviate women's issues in this regard - and it is usually at the hands of both men and women. Men diss you for being a "white knight" and women diss you for being "too nice".

 

[/url]

This video cracks me up.

[TheBigQuestion]

Whether or not they are equivalent is besides the point. This thread is analogous to a shoplifter making a thread about what a shame it is that some people are embezzling millions of dollars of company funds, while he himself has no intent of stopping his shoplifting endeavours ("I am what I am, that is all there is to it.") If Castle were genuinely concerned about women being judged harshly for their appearance, he would do what he is able to help prevent that (as some posters like Wholigan actually try to do). Clearly, he isn't concerned enough to make any changes on his own behalf. So what else could the purpose of this thread be? Not terribly difficult to figure out.

 

 

 

Thus had I also done.

 

 

 

I have never claimed to be on V/DY's side in everything either, and neither have many of the others who are agreeing with them on this thread. You will see that we disagree quite a lot in other ways, yet this topic unifies us. My opinion of TW is still that of a good poster with a level head.

 

 

 

'Not starting out as obese' is really not the same thing as 'starting out naturally thin'. Most humans start off in the middle, which is how the entire lean body mass scale was conceived to begin with.

 

Actually, whether the two kinds of behaviors are equivalent is the ENTIRE point. The main reason a small handful of posters have taken issue with what MrCastle was saying is the fact that, while maintaining that in his experience women are more harsh when they judge women's bodies, he expressed that he had certain preferences, whether using Jessica Alba as a concrete example or simply saying so in the abstract. Did he make a judgment of some sort? Sure. Was he expressly or impliedly cutting down women who didn't have his preference, using the type of malicious, vitriolic language that has been presented many times in this thread for the sake of illustration? Not at all. And the implication that the two kinds of behavior are somehow equivalent is utterly contemptible. Furthermore, Castle DID say that he is doing his part to improve what he sees as a sick obsession with thinness above all else. Whether the means he's employing or if his reasoning is fully fleshed out can be up for debate, sure, but I fail to see how his heart is in the wrong place.

 

I never implied that you always agreed with DY/Verhrzn, so I don't see what the need is for you to bring that up.

 

 

Yes, I agree that most humans start off in the middle. But again, Hollywood is a beast that self-selects and promotes those which already live up to its ideals (and me saying so is not an endorsement of Hollywood beauty ideals either). Sure, there is plastic surgery, but most people who start to get big in Hollywood are conventionally very attractive in terms of unaltered facial features and are thinner and/or more curvaceous by nature. The pool from which Hollywood culls its talent is generally quite a bit more attractive using its own selection criteria than the majority of the population. I'm glad to see that you've chosen to actually engage in a conversation about it, though, rather than making not-so-subtle attempts to insult me.

Edited October 9, 2012 by TheBigQuestion

[Woggle]

If I boycotted everything that had something that was not PC I would nothing to listen to or watch except for Jonas Brothers and family programming. I am not listening to PG rated stuff all the time just so I can be Mr Sensitive Man.

 

The Maxim top10 of course are unrealistically good looking women but the People sexiest men alive are also just as bad. People like good looking people and that is no secret but most men will keep those conversations between ourselves.

 

As bad as some men can be about weight women be brutal about height. A person can have some control over their weight but people can't control their height.

[sweetjasmine]

We women know making comments about other women's bodies is cruel and uncalled for. No woman who does it think it's a good thing, or a good quality to have; they do it anyway, just like people smoke despite the health warnings, but no one thinks they are a good person when engaging in this behavior. If a woman does it in our presence, we know she's a jerk. If we call another woman out on it, we automatically have the higher moral ground.

 

Yep, agreed. I've called other women out on this kind of crap before. My friends don't do this kind of thing, but some of the women in my family do. They usually respond to being called out on it by making some throwaway remark and changing the subject.

 

On the flip side, it seems difficult-if not impossible-to call men out on criticizing or judging women's bodies. Mr. Castle was clearly making a judgement about Jessica Alba's body when he says it would "look better if she had more curves," and yet when told he was judging women's bodies, he and other male posters immediately started defending it.

 

It's not difficult or impossible. You just get justifications and arguments in response.

 

Men can justify their critique of women's bodies in a way women themselves can't. "Men are visual." "It's just how men are built." "What's the big deal?" "I can't help what I'm attracted to." Etc.

 

I've definitely heard that before. Also "men are wired to be attracted to youth" and every other variation of "it's biology!" as proof that such-and-such person is flawed in this or that way. The general argument seems to be "I can't help it because my opinion is the product of being a male and I'm just being honest."

 

Moreover, I myself feel less upset when other women criticize my body because I know that most of the time they're doing it as a defense mechanism. They have been hurt and judged, so they will turn around and hurt and judge me. They have been criticized for their body, so they will turn around and criticize me. I pity them, more than I'm upset by them.

 

This fits my experiences, too. I don't know about others, but when women have criticized my looks or my body or my clothes or whatever, I've always just dismissed it as some catty, b-tchy remark. It's easy to dismiss the comments and write the person off.

 

But for the life of me I cannot figure out why men are criticizing women's bodies. Why do men feel it necessary to comment or critique a woman's body? If women do it as a means of competition or projection, why do men do it?

 

It's just the meat market mentality in this culture, really. Obsession with image and appearance over substance. I think we've become so used to seeing so many distorted images of people that many think they have the right to shame others for ordinary flaws. Witness the now typical "ewwwwwww!" reaction to cellulite and the assumption that only obese ugly fatties have it. Why do people think that only whales have cellulite? Because it's airbrushed out of every human being on every piece of media, so something that the vast majority of adult women have is now seen ,as an abnormal flaw.

 

And it's not just Cosmo and Maxim and all those other garbage magazines. You can go through life never having bought a single one of those rags and not paying attention to celebrity culture and still have body image issues. It's ingrained in the culture. "But women publish Cosmo!" doesn't explain anything. If only it were limited to stupid magazines - then it'd be an easy problem to fix.

[somedude81]

I'm confused.

 

How does men having a preference equal making disparaging remarks about women?

 

When I say, "I'm attracted to women with large breasts," I'm pretty sure I'm not criticizing or judging anybody.

[TheBigQuestion]

I'm confused.

 

How does men having a preference equal making disparaging remarks about women?

 

When I say, "I'm attracted to women with large breasts," I'm pretty sure I'm not criticizing or judging anybody.

 

In reality, you aren't.

 

You're just in the LoveShack Twilight Zone.

[verhrzn]

I'm confused.

 

How does men having a preference equal making disparaging remarks about women?

 

When I say, "I'm attracted to women with large breasts," I'm pretty sure I'm not criticizing or judging anybody.

 

What I want to know is why you feel it necessary to share information. Why the hell do I need to know you like large breasts? In what way does it add to the conversation? Why do you feel it necessary to tell us what specific part of a woman you prefer, and what size that body part should be?

[ImperfectionisBeauty]

I am totally guilty of this. If I don't feel pretty I wil absolutely tear up another woman about her body especially, it is the easiest thing to go for. I am not going to lie about it, it's wrong but it kind of makes me feel good. It's like at least I don't have this roll or at least I don't have huge ears or this flaw. I made a post about how my ex is dating a zoo animal (a really ugly girl) it makes it easier for me to handle the fact that he didn't want me and he picked someone who I see as less than me. It is a confidence boost. Maybe all women aren't like me but that's how I am.. Just being honest.

[William]

Since I'm the harsh critic of sticking to the thread topic, we'll call this one done. I'll deal with the civility and respect violations later today.