sex & marriage: a wife's view

[mem11363]

The problem is caused by her bad faith behavior. Because if he does nice things for her and then subsequently - days even a week later initiates sex she claims the nice things were only done to "get" sex.

 

But how about this - as men our sexual desire grows steadily higher between orgasms. So over time, when we are not having sex, our desire/need for sex simply rises. So Jeff asks for sex because he is attracted to his wife. And she attacks him in various ways because she doesn't want sex and doesn't want to honestly discuss why.

 

My read on Jeff is that he is both nice and honest. I don't think he even understands that most of her sexual avoidance behavior is misdirection, a type of marital sleight of hand. Part of the reason Jeff gets so angry is he finds her behavior totally mystifying - and anyone would - when someone else is being deceitful - when they offer you sex and then attack you just as you get into bed - a normal person gets confused/disoriented and angry.

 

In that case she only admitted that she was in the wrong/wasn't being honest about why she did that when he threatened to leave. You know you have hit rock bottom when the threat of separation/divorce is the only means of obtaining the truth from your spouse.

 

 

 

The thing is, a gift isn't given with expectations. If a gift comes with a price tag, it isn't truly a gift.

 

From what Jeff is saying, he is truly giving gifts free from expectations, but his wife percieves an expectation of sex in exchange for the gifts. It isn't Jeff's fault that she has perception, but it isn't "mean" of her, either. It just is. It's an issue to explore. Unless Jeff is finished exploring the issues, and then that is fair enough.

 

And, yes, it is pretty sad.

[wheream_i]

It's certainly not my husband's fault.

 

It won't be his fault when he strays either.

[giotto]

You know you have hit rock bottom when the threat of separation/divorce is the only means of obtaining the truth from your spouse.

 

Absolutely, and I should know...

 

Maybe in Jeff's case she is just reacting to his "demands" (in whatever form they manifest themselves) for sex by shutting down and being turned off. If she has a low libido, being constantly put under pressure (rightly or wrongly) will reach the opposite effect. No sex. Unfortunately, it's a catch-22 situation and a vicious circle, which is impossible to break. The problem is the low libido, a condition which, in my experience, is almost impossible to "cure". It's the luck of the draw.

 

What's not acceptable is perceiving everything as sex related, whilst not making any effort at all in trying to meet Jeff's needs at least in between... this is not marriage, it's house sharing and babysitting...

[xxoo]

Maybe in Jeff's case she is just reacting to his "demands" (in whatever form they manifest themselves) for sex by shutting down and being turned off. If she has a low libido, being constantly put under pressure (rightly or wrongly) will reach the opposite effect. No sex. Unfortunately, it's a catch-22 situation and a vicious circle, which is impossible to break. The problem is the low libido, a condition which, in my experience, is almost impossible to "cure". It's the luck of the draw.

 

What's not acceptable is perceiving everything as sex related, whilst not making any effort at all in trying to meet Jeff's needs at least in between... this is not marriage, it's house sharing and babysitting...

 

Agreed, especially with the part about not making any effort to meet Jeff's needs

[giotto]

Agreed, especially with the part about not making any effort to meet Jeff's needs

 

yes, and unfortunately the problem with not exercising any pressure sex-wise is that Jeff will never get enough sex or he will never get sex, full stop!

 

Their sexual relationship needs to be reset to zero, possibly with the help of a therapist... but I can't remember what Jeff said in the past about counselling...

[mem11363]

If Jeff's wife wanted to solve this - she could. She could simply say:

 

- I feel pressured when you initiate and don't want you to initiate any more

- I promise to connect with you X times per week. I will initiate. And I will put a smiley face on the calendar each day we do to remind both of us where we are in terms of frequency

- I will not ignore/forget about your needs

 

And X is some frequency Jeff is ok with.

 

And that removes this whole approach/rejection/anger cycle from the equation.

 

Thing is - she won't do this. I mean she might agree to - but she won't actually do it. She will forget - remember this is "edge of divorce" stuff - she isn't forgetting - she is simply hoping he will give up. And the calendar smiley is a big deal - because it forces her to acknowledge that all the lying about when it does/doesn't happen is ending.

 

Very simple stuff - SHE does not want to have sex with him and yet she does want his continued financial support. So she just comes up with one lie after another.

 

If you hooked her to a polygraph and asked her some questions it would go like this - answers in bold:

- Do you think your husband is miserable over your rejection - YES

- Have you done ANYTHING to try to help solve this problem - NO

- Have you been truly honest with him about the problem - NO

- Does HIS unhappiness cause you anxiety / sympathy for him - NO

- What makes you upset - WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT LEAVING ME

 

 

 

 

Absolutely, and I should know...

 

Maybe in Jeff's case she is just reacting to his "demands" (in whatever form they manifest themselves) for sex by shutting down and being turned off. If she has a low libido, being constantly put under pressure (rightly or wrongly) will reach the opposite effect. No sex. Unfortunately, it's a catch-22 situation and a vicious circle, which is impossible to break. The problem is the low libido, a condition which, in my experience, is almost impossible to "cure". It's the luck of the draw.

 

What's not acceptable is perceiving everything as sex related, whilst not making any effort at all in trying to meet Jeff's needs at least in between... this is not marriage, it's house sharing and babysitting...

[mem11363]

This isn't about hormones. This is about trulove. When a partner feels trulove for you - making YOU happy makes THEM happy. So even lacking hormone driven lust - the joy you give your partner makes some amount of sex a positive experience for you.

 

These marriages break down due to the combo - lack of lust AND trulove. That is the killer.

 

P.S. - I HAVE had sex with my wife when I didn't feel in the mood. I did it to please her and doing so ended up making me happy.

 

It may not have to do with feelings at all it may have more to do with one thing:

HORMONES.

[xxoo]

It may not have to do with feelings at all it may have more to do with one thing:

HORMONES.

 

Hormones affect feelings. Hormones can easily explain changes in libido (low libido when nursing or on the pill, high when ovulating, wild fluctuations with menopause--yes, we women are riding this rollercoaster, too.)

 

Still, you can have a low libido and care about your partner's unmet needs. It doesn't necessarily mean more sex is happening, but at least there would be concern expressed and some attempt to make the situation more livable for each partner.

[mem11363]

I agree that showing real sympathy is helpful. And good wives know what their men want. And a good wife doesn't say "well since this particular ride is broken the amusement park is closed.

 

And good husbands don't treat their wives like stepford robots.

 

For every night my wife has humored me - and let me "get her in the mood" for sex even though it isn't something she really felt like doing, there has been a night where I completely masked my desire and was a delightful, playful and helpful husband even though inside I was feeling a little edgy with desire.

 

These guys who are posting - their wives want the compromise to be:

- Sexless marriage

- The guy has no external outlet

- He is celibate and he learns to accept that gracefully and continue to meet all her needs - sort of like best friends except that you will find in most of these cases the financial arrangement is not 50/50 like you would have with a platonic friend and frankly the rest of it isn't 50/50 either.

 

If you don't love your spouse enough to derive joy from pleasing THEM, then be humane and free them to have their physical needs met elsewhere.

 

Sexual fidelity is a huge commitment - with it comes an equal responsibility to physically love your partner. To demand the commitment without fulfilling your responsibilities is predatory and parasitic.

 

 

Hormones affect feelings. Hormones can easily explain changes in libido (low libido when nursing or on the pill, high when ovulating, wild fluctuations with menopause--yes, we women are riding this rollercoaster, too.)

 

Still, you can have a low libido and care about your partner's unmet needs. It doesn't necessarily mean more sex is happening, but at least there would be concern expressed and some attempt to make the situation more livable for each partner.

[mem11363]

Who is responsible for making doctors appointments etc?

 

THAT is part of this pattern as well.

 

 

I guess I should have been clearer here. Perhaps if the lack of desire is due to low hormones, it may be of benefit to balance those hormones. Then, sex would be more about joy and less about fulfilling a "duty".

[xxoo]

For every night my wife has humored me - and let me "get her in the mood" for sex even though it isn't something she really felt like doing, there has been a night where I completely masked my desire and was a delightful, playful and helpful husband even though inside I was feeling a little edgy with desire. .

 

Right. I think most of us happily married folks can relate to this kind of scene and dynamic. I know I can!

 

But this assumes that she is able to get in the mood. Therein lies the problem.

 

Yes, the problem needs to be addressed with a dr. That is part of taking your partner's needs seriously--seeing what can be done to fix the problem. But keep in mind that hormone replacement therapy is not safe for all women. There are lots of factors to consider, and every situation is different.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

The thing is, a gift isn't given with expectations. If a gift comes with a price tag, it isn't truly a gift.

 

From what Jeff is saying, he is truly giving gifts free from expectations, but his wife percieves an expectation of sex in exchange for the gifts. It isn't Jeff's fault that she has perception, but it isn't "mean" of her, either. It just is. It's an issue to explore. Unless Jeff is finished exploring the issues, and then that is fair enough.

 

And, yes, it is pretty sad.

 

But that is not the point. I said that for every present, trip, romantic plans, gesture of love, you expect a reaction. That is purely human nature. Getting nothing more then a proverbial "pat on the head" does nothing but build resentment.

[JamesM]

I said that for every present, trip, romantic plans, gesture of love, you expect a reaction. That is purely human nature. Getting nothing more then a proverbial "pat on the head" does nothing but build resentment.

 

So true.

 

So many times over the years I have gotten gifts and even more so, I have done things that I know will make her happy. What am I seeking from her? Sex?

 

Yes and no. What I am seeking is her gratitude through the expression of sex. My thinking is that if this gift or action really is something for which she is thankful, then (hopefully) in her mind, she will say "Ah, he will know how much I love him and am grateful for what he did (or bought) when I express my love and gratitude through passionate sex."

 

Alas...it rarely happens that way.

 

Is it wrong to expect sex? No, because if sex is how I perceive deep gratitude and love, then it only seems logical that she would want to show me via sex.

 

If she bought me a gift and expected me to show gratitude by spending time with her and wanting to listen to her, then of course, she will be disappointed if all I want to do is have sex. Obviously it would show that I have no clue how she feels appreciation from me.

 

It is no different with many men and the expectation of sex as an expression of love and gratitude for a gift.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

So true.

 

So many times over the years I have gotten gifts and even more so, I have done things that I know will make her happy. What am I seeking from her? Sex?

 

Yes and no. What I am seeking is her gratitude through the expression of sex. My thinking is that if this gift or action really is something for which she is thankful, then (hopefully) in her mind, she will say "Ah, he will know how much I love him and am grateful for what he did (or bought) when I express my love and gratitude through passionate sex."

 

Alas...it rarely happens that way.

 

Is it wrong to expect sex? No, because if sex is how I perceive deep gratitude and love, then it only seems logical that she would want to show me via sex.

 

If she bought me a gift and expected me to show gratitude by spending time with her and wanting to listen to her, then of course, she will be disappointed if all I want to do is have sex. Obviously it would show that I have no clue how she feels appreciation from me.

 

It is no different with many men and the expectation of sex as an expression of love and gratitude for a gift.

 

why is something so simple, perceived so wrong.

 

So a lesson women..... next time, when your spouse gets you that something special, is romantic, takes you out, plans and pays for a trip, brings home flowers, know it is simply because they want you to jump their bones......:laugh:

[xxoo]

So many times over the years I have gotten gifts and even more so, I have done things that I know will make her happy. What am I seeking from her? Sex?

 

Yes and no. What I am seeking is her gratitude through the expression of sex. .

 

Hold on.

 

When I give a gift, it is an expression of gratitude. Or simply of love.

 

Do you also have comparable expectations of gratitude when you give a gift to your children? Or to a friend or parent?

 

Because, when I give a gift, the reward I'm hoping to get is the recipient's joy.

 

I really think linking gifts to sex is only going to complicate matters. Now you have an issue with sex and gifts.

[JamesM]

Hold on.

 

When I give a gift, it is an expression of gratitude. Or simply of love.

 

Do you also have comparable expectations of gratitude when you give a gift to your children? Or to a friend or parent?

 

 

 

First of all, I did not say every gift. Of course many gifts have been given for varying reasons. And many gifts are simply given with no expectations of anything.

 

Second, we are discussing spouses, partners in this thread, and certainly not children or parents. I highly doubt that I would expect such a thing as an expression of love or gratitude via sex from children or parents.

 

The point so aptly missed is....if she knows that to me sex is a great way to express her gratitude or love, then why would she not do it? While I certainly do not expect it every time and honestly don't expect i t much, I cannot fathom why someone would not use an expression that is well received by the giver of gifts...within the definition of that relationship.

[xxoo]

First of all, I did not say every gift. Of course many gifts have been given for varying reasons. And many gifts are simply given with no expectations of anything.

 

Second, we are discussing spouses, partners in this thread, and certainly not children or parents. I highly doubt that I would expect such a thing as an expression of love or gratitude via sex from children or parents.

 

lol, I didn't mean to imply you'd want sex from children or parents. I'm asking if gifts to people other than your spouse also come with expectations. If not, I wonder why it is "human" to have expectations when gifting a spouse, but not friends, etc.

 

The point so aptly missed is....if she knows that to me sex is a great way to express her gratitude or love, then why would she not do it? While I certainly do not expect it every time and honestly don't expect i t much, I cannot fathom why someone would not use an expression that is well received by the giver of gifts...within the definition of that relationship.

 

The simplest answer is: she doesn't want to have sex. I don't know if the men posting here have any actual experience in low/no libido, but it can make all the acts that normally are really fun seem really repulsive. Sad but true. She might very well want to make you feel loved....but just not do that. (my own experiences with low libido have been limited and related to newborns, but that is how I experienced it)

[giotto]

lol, I didn't mean to imply you'd want sex from children or parents. I'm asking if gifts to people other than your spouse also come with expectations. If not, I wonder why it is "human" to have expectations when gifting a spouse, but not friends, etc.

 

 

 

The simplest answer is: she doesn't want to have sex. I don't know if the men posting here have any actual experience in low/no libido, but it can make all the acts that normally are really fun seem really repulsive. Sad but true. She might very well want to make you feel loved....but just not do that. (my own experiences with low libido have been limited and related to newborns, but that is how I experienced it)

 

you know, xxoo, I've come to this conclusion too... if there is no way to fix it, then it's one of those things and we have to put up with it or just find an alternative, whatever that may be...

[Toodamnpragmatic]

lol, I didn't mean to imply you'd want sex from children or parents. I'm asking if gifts to people other than your spouse also come with expectations. If not, I wonder why it is "human" to have expectations when gifting a spouse, but not friends, etc.

 

 

 

The simplest answer is: she doesn't want to have sex. I don't know if the men posting here have any actual experience in low/no libido, but it can make all the acts that normally are really fun seem really repulsive. Sad but true. She might very well want to make you feel loved....but just not do that. (my own experiences with low libido have been limited and related to newborns, but that is how I experienced it)

 

and the easy excuse of little/no libido.... These women, each and everyone enjoy sex and ORGASM..... I am again showing my ignorance when I say if you orgasm, like it, then yes you can have a low libido, but it is an enjoyable act and when you get in to it. So you don't initiate it...... SO WHAT????? When you have it (and once every 2 weeks I think is a low libido, that most men here would be happy with sadly)......

 

So forget buying presents and all those other gestures and save your money for the GF you get when you divorce.....

[xxoo]

and the easy excuse of little/no libido.... These women, each and everyone enjoy sex and ORGASM..... I am again showing my ignorance when I say if you orgasm, like it, then yes you can have a low libido, but it is an enjoyable act and when you get in to it. So you don't initiate it...... SO WHAT????? When you have it (and once every 2 weeks I think is a low libido, that most men here would be happy with sadly)......

 

TDP, you are assuming these women enjoy sex and orgasm. You should know about your own wife, but you really don't know what is the case with each and every one of these women. Women fake orgasm all the time, and men are convinced all the time. Some men wouldn't recognize a female orgasm if/when it hit them over the head.

 

But, lets assume they do enjoy it and orgasm when they have it. You are also assuming that they would enjoy it equally and orgasm if they had sex more frequently...or at other times of the month. That may or may not be true. It may be that they enjoy it/orgasm when they infrequently have sex because that's the day the hormonal stars aligned.

 

So forget buying presents and all those other gestures and save your money for the GF you get when you divorce.....

 

Everyone has their dealbreakers. A sexless marriage sounds like a fair one to me.

[Tnerforireyeh]

Honestly, I know it takes awhile before people here catch on, so I'm going to say this one more time.. one person got it last time and I hope more get it this time:

 

Buy the book "Games People Play" by Eric Berne and look up the game "Frigid Woman." It describes this lady's behavior exactly, and gives reasons for it. It is a very common game.

[Jeff1962]

If Jeff's wife wanted to solve this - she could. She could simply say:

 

- I feel pressured when you initiate and don't want you to initiate any more

- I promise to connect with you X times per week. I will initiate. And I will put a smiley face on the calendar each day we do to remind both of us where we are in terms of frequency

- I will not ignore/forget about your needs

 

And X is some frequency Jeff is ok with.

 

First of all, my apologizies to the OP, I dis not mean to hijack this thread.

 

Mem, buddy. I know you mean well, I can tell your heart is in the right place. But I cannot in my heart follow this advice. For a man (as you should know) sex is a MAJOR aspect in the male psyche for feeling loved and appreciated, this is just how we are wired. No matter how confident a man is, no matter how successful he may be, if he does not feel loved by his wife, his love will fade as will his confidence but he will never let his wife know this. He will simply find someone else to fill the void. The passion a woman shows a man, how she touches a man's body, the way she makes love to him, how she makes love to him can make us as men feel important, king of the world or make us feel like we don't really matter. A lack of love from a woman can begin to break a man inside.

 

I am not about to come to any sort of agreement over sex. Sex is not a barganing tool. I am not placing smiley faces on any calendar and then saying ok, these days we have sex. I am not a factor to be scheduled in. I long for true intimacy with my wife, I also long to make love to my wife. But I will let this love die before I place myself or my needs, or her needs on any calendar.

 

I have made my personal decision. However, my counsler has asked that I wait for anywhere from 6 to 9 months before I file for a D or ask her to move out. He says that my situation is amplifying my PTSD. He wants me to continue with IC and MC. I want to say screw the PTSD and screw her, but I do have the desire to listen. So, here I am again.

 

I really appreciate all of the great feed back from you good people. And I will check out the book about the fridgid woman.

 

Thank you.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Jeff1962
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[Mr White]

Some women are just callous bitches that simply do not care about their husbands, as evident in posts suggesting that the dissapearance of sex is a given, and so "deal with it".

 

I'll deal with it by dusting up the prenup and filing the divorce papers.

And I'm not even somebody with a particularly high drive (I'd be pretty okay with 1-2 times a week). It's just a matter of principle.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Mr White

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Some women are just callous bitches that simply do not care about their husbands, as evident in posts suggesting that the dissapearance of sex is a given, and so "deal with it".

 

I'll deal with it by dusting up the prenup and filing the divorce papers.

And I'm not even somebody with a particularly high drive (I'd be pretty okay with 1-2 times a week). It's just a matter of principle.

 

1-2 X/wk and you'd not hear a peep out of us...... heck JamesM wants 1-2 X's a month and would consider it case closed (as far as complaining on LS).... I'd love to say I'd go daily (though not sure whether I could keep up:D).....

 

But really 1-2 X's a week with the person you love (and vice versa) is such a chore for who (I'm saying it again) is having ORGASMS?????

[Samantha0905]

TDP, you are assuming these women enjoy sex and orgasm. You should know about your own wife, but you really don't know what is the case with each and every one of these women. Women fake orgasm all the time, and men are convinced all the time. Some men wouldn't recognize a female orgasm if/when it hit them over the head.

 

But, lets assume they do enjoy it and orgasm when they have it. You are also assuming that they would enjoy it equally and orgasm if they had sex more frequently...or at other times of the month. That may or may not be true. It may be that they enjoy it/orgasm when they infrequently have sex because that's the day the hormonal stars aligned.

 

 

 

Everyone has their dealbreakers. A sexless marriage sounds like a fair one to me.

 

Oh Lord. I don't know what I just read but I enjoy a personal orgasm each and every day at least once a day with myself. What the Hell? What woman doesn't enjoy an orgasm?