DolceVenganza Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 ^ I buy that, about the closeness. The feeling of it. However, we are often trapped in our minds, thinking ourselves to death, or out of life. Sometimes, most times, we press ahead. We don't need to feel good, we just need to do it, whether it's cuddling or banging. Do it and reap the rewards - feel good HAVING done it. People today are told FEEL GOOD before you do it! So false. Do it because you know it's right, you will feel good. Getting out of bed early to workout, or to cuddle with your wife, or have sex with your wife/husband. I have little sympathy for this mental prison that is locking people in. Life is eeking away. I believe there are more dysfunctional people today than ever, not because we can identify it , but because we 'define.' "Oh gee you don't say I have ___? Wow I need pills and therapy and special treatment!" F that. Get on with life, or get on dying. Our current society is so coddled, so blinded, so ignorant, so programmed and delusional. We're the feel good society because most of our 'needs' (Maslow's hierarchy) are taken care of, so now we can bitch and moan about the final level of needs we do or don't have. Yet all the other needs in that pyramid are crumbling anyways. Rewind time. Take away the many creature comforts we have and people would immediately APPRECIATE what they can do and have before them. They'll be whining and paralyzed once again by what they DONT have. MOTION creates EMOTION. Get moving. Get loving. Get touching and feeling and THEN the moods will come. It doesn't just pop up, like a boner. Sometimes you have to WORK to create the feeling, but that's the beauty in it! --------------------------- At least now, I have a female partner BECAUSE I want to engage in sex with her. I am a sexual being and one way I express feelings, closeness, respect, love, etc, is through sex. It is the only way to do so physically, at least when compared to all other physical forms. Emotional, spiritual, etc, occurs over time. It takes time to prove your character, to prove your devotion, but it does happen, just slowly. Sex can be immediate, but this oversexed, promiscuous culture waters down how special it can be between 2 people. WE need to bring that back. DV Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 1, 2010 Author Share Posted March 1, 2010 We might bury that anger and resentment deep and life does go on, but it takes a toll. Mr. Lucky mmm... at the moment, I'm hearing a little voice telling me... go, go, go... Link to post Share on other sites
Toodamnpragmatic Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 A lot of men think the way you do but many woman don't. Lots of women don't have to orgasm every time. It is the quality and closeness of being together that makes them feel satisfied. we have that quality and closeness you claim, but no where near enough sex and wonder why..... And sorry the orgasms are there (yes not the be all and end all)...... And sadly we are not talking long drawn out affairs either. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 We cuddled last night (bit of spooning), and it was nice... I still wanted to have sex, madly... this thing is ripping me apart... Link to post Share on other sites
Toodamnpragmatic Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 We cuddled last night (bit of spooning), and it was nice... I still wanted to have sex, madly... this thing is ripping me apart... So did I.... Obviously you have to be patient for the time being. But believe it or not, that is a big step, considering that prior you were sharing a bed, but there was an invisible wall and you didn't even touch. Good luck... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 So did I.... Obviously you have to be patient for the time being. But believe it or not, that is a big step, considering that prior you were sharing a bed, but there was an invisible wall and you didn't even touch. Good luck... I know, I know... but after 15 years I'm at breaking point and very impatient... well, I'm normally impatient anyway... and I can already hear the voices... "you waited 15 years, what's the problem with waiting a few more months?" Link to post Share on other sites
Toodamnpragmatic Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I know, I know... but after 15 years I'm at breaking point and very impatient... well, I'm normally impatient anyway... and I can already hear the voices... "you waited 15 years, what's the problem with waiting a few more months?" Face it there is no winning.... Have to set a timetable in any case..... It gets sadder and sadder reading this board and wondering when it does happen, is it just mercy sex (participation, enthusiasm, orgasms not withstanding). Stay strong..... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 Face it there is no winning.... Have to set a timetable in any case..... It gets sadder and sadder reading this board and wondering when it does happen, is it just mercy sex (participation, enthusiasm, orgasms not withstanding). Stay strong..... timetable... sigh... we've had sex once in over two months... do you really want to know what I would do with a timetable right now? Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I know, I know... but after 15 years I'm at breaking point and very impatient... well, I'm normally impatient anyway... and I can already hear the voices... "you waited 15 years, what's the problem with waiting a few more months?" That mind set caused me to stay in a sexless marriage 5 years longer than I should have. Boy, don't I wish I had that time back again because I would have done things very differently. Don't you think that 15 years is long enough ??? Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
DolceVenganza Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I feel for your situation. 15 year is a LONG time. Time that cannot be gotten back. "If we spend all of our money, we are only out of money. If we spend all of our time (or waste it), we are out of life." Each person has their own path in life; some people are not meant to be in reciprocal, caring, nuturing, passionate relationships. GL Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 That mind set caused me to stay in a sexless marriage 5 years longer than I should have. Boy, don't I wish I had that time back again because I would have done things very differently. Don't you think that 15 years is long enough ??? Mr. Lucky well, I do... but I have to give my marriage a last chance. For myself and for my kids... and my wife. It's very difficult... at moment, I just want to run, run, run... Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 well, I do... but I have to give my marriage a last chance. For myself and for my kids... and my wife. It's very difficult... at moment, I just want to run, run, run... Sometimes those gut instincts are giving us valuable information. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer in marriage. Otherwise, I never would have remarried after the train wreck first time around. But sometimes you have to get to point where you understand that it's not about right and wrong or winners and losers, but simply comes down to differences. And if you're this far apart on something that is a core value that relates to your ability to function in the marriage - and there is no progress or cooperation in sight - then one has to decide how much more time to invest. Doesn't sound like you're quite there yet, but I'll bet you're not too far away... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 Sometimes those gut instincts are giving us valuable information. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer in marriage. Otherwise, I never would have remarried after the train wreck first time around. But sometimes you have to get to point where you understand that it's not about right and wrong or winners and losers, but simply comes down to differences. And if you're this far apart on something that is a core value that relates to your ability to function in the marriage - and there is no progress or cooperation in sight - then one has to decide how much more time to invest. Doesn't sound like you're quite there yet, but I'll bet you're not too far away... Mr. Lucky I'm not quite there yet, but I'm getting close... she says stuff, but then acts the opposite... Link to post Share on other sites
BettyBoop Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I'm not quite there yet, but I'm getting close... she says stuff, but then acts the opposite... Like how? Isn't it just one day since she said she wanted it all to work and you two had the "talk"? Now since you promised her to stay and work on it you sort of need to be a bit more patient, unfortunately, Giotto. :/ If it is one last shot at the marriage then you truly need to throw everything into it - even if your wife doesn't. Because then you will know "I did everything I could and I gave it one honest last chance". What has she done so far since that talk that has been one thing she said and acted the opposite? You need to erase everything else and focus on what she does/says NOW after saying she wants to work on it. That is how you give it one last honest try... Link to post Share on other sites
Karensu Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Sex won't make your marriage last if other elements such as trust and communication are not present. But marriage without sex can put a real strain on a relationship, particularly when one partner wants to have sex. If both partners are fine with it, then that can sometimes work. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 What has she done so far since that talk that has been one thing she said and acted the opposite? She said she wants cuddles and kisses, but it's always me to initiate. She hasn't hugged me once since our talk. She still hasn't done anything about counselling or even changing her meds. I know she works hard, but we talked about therapy and the meds over a week ago... I'm just doubtful that she will go through with it and I think I have all the reason to doubt... it's taken her 15 years to get to this stage and me threatening twice to walk out... we'll see, but I'm pessimistic. You are right that I need to wait and give my marriage a last chance. I agree with it. Let's hope I can get past the hurt she inflicted me for the last 15 years... Link to post Share on other sites
BettyBoop Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 She still hasn't done anything about counselling or even changing her meds. I know she works hard, but we talked about therapy and the meds over a week ago... Work is no excuse for that...to make one phone call to book a therapist appointment and a doctor's appointment only takes a couple of minutes. It should be important enough for her to be able to put aside her life for two minutes and do that. So I will agree with that. That is like when a guy says he didn't have any free time to contact you - I'm not stupid, I know how quickly a text message can be sent. Duh. I'm gonna share something with you. When I left my fiancé he started saying he would have done anything to be with me. Even eat meat (he was a vegan). But his words meant nothing to me because I knew that even if he gave up meat for me (I didn't want him to eat meat I just wanted him to be a normal vegan or vegetarian - he had serious food issues) he would hold resentment towards me the rest of our lives for that. I don't believe we can or should make people change. I think they have to want to themselves deep within. When I told my current boyfriend I could no longer take how he would start a fight with me over nothing all the time - he asked for a second chance. I agreed to it. He immediately started to try to make changes within himself and I have noticed how we rarely fight anymore because of it. The difference here is that both men had patterns already manifested within them after several years. But only one of them truly took a look at himself and took the effort to change and didn't just give me empty promises in order to win me back. The biggest lesson I ever learned from my relationship experience is the following: "Actions speak louder than words." And it is so true. Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 She said she wants cuddles and kisses, but it's always me to initiate. She hasn't hugged me once since our talk. She still hasn't done anything about counselling or even changing her meds. I know she works hard, but we talked about therapy and the meds over a week ago... I'm just doubtful that she will go through with it and I think I have all the reason to doubt... it's taken her 15 years to get to this stage and me threatening twice to walk out... we'll see, but I'm pessimistic. You are right that I need to wait and give my marriage a last chance. I agree with it. Let's hope I can get past the hurt she inflicted me for the last 15 years... A few comments.... She is working strange shifts, so we can give her the benefit of the doubt on having a difficult time scheduling something. However, this doesn't means she can never find the time. Facing one's demons is very difficult for anyone, and here we see that her motivation truly is only you walking out, or you demanding sex. Sadly, the best and longest lasting motivator will be her wanting to change for herself. While she may love you, facing herself and her problems may take more strength and courage than you realize. And in her mind, she may have this block regarding you and sex. Setting up appointments are not happy things for many reasons and adding to that is the resentment that you have given an ultimatum..."do it or I leave." So, in her mind, this is once again about you wanting sex. What she said in your confrontation may not be what is in her mind. What she said may be what she needed to say to keep you for the time being. It is a Catch 22. You gauge her love by the interest she has in changing to improve your sex life. She gauges your love on how much you are willing to stick by her despite the lack of sex life. It comes down to the definition of love and the willingness of the other to see the opposite view. Can she change if after 15 years she has not? Yes. Will it last? Only if her motivation is more than the fear of losing you, because once she no longer thinks you are leaving she will return to some (probably not all) of her former ways. I think you can love her more if you do not feel locked into the relationship. If you do not feel powerless, then you can love her and be patient. If you think she holds all of the cards so to speak, then you will only build up resentment. And so it is with her. If she now feels that she must change for you to love her, then she will do so but will retain some resentment. Then her feeling will be there that unless she performs sexually for you, you will leave. And because of that, she may simply feel that you want her only for sex...even if it isn't true. Perhaps the only way she will change is after you have left. Then she will realize what her obsessions, anxieties, and her past have done to her family and life. And she will change out of a true motivation to improve her life and future. Sadly, you may never benefit from that change, but at least she will be a better person. Then the question for you will be....do you think you will be savvy enough to avoid a relationship with the same kind of person? Many individuals do not because that type of relationship is the most comfortable one, and sadly, many relationships start out just fine. It is only years later that the same problems reoccur. Tough times. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 thanks you, Betty and James. I know that facing her demons is a huge thing for her. I should look at the bigger picture, but, as I said before, I was at breaking point and I still am. It's very difficult for me to concentrate on anything. It's very difficult to be positive and happy around her. I know she feels it and it makes things worse. Maybe a temporary separation would be the best thing, with me moving out for a bit... Link to post Share on other sites
Toodamnpragmatic Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 thanks you, Betty and James. I know that facing her demons is a huge thing for her. I should look at the bigger picture, but, as I said before, I was at breaking point and I still am. It's very difficult for me to concentrate on anything. It's very difficult to be positive and happy around her. I know she feels it and it makes things worse. Maybe a temporary separation would be the best thing, with me moving out for a bit... My wife knows when I am starting to count the days (actually I start after day 1)..... But when all know a simple answer, only a little effort, and they get pleasure from it (there I go again:p), why is it such an issue. The fact is that it is a problem..... So you've had the conversation and she has made promises and little movement. Now if you say your bags are packed, she may have "mercy" sex, to keep you around and then you start counting the days again..... Damn there really is no answer..... Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Damn there really is no answer..... Actually there IS an answer and there is a solution. But you have no control over the implementation of that solution. THAT is why it is so frustrating. Link to post Share on other sites
BettyBoop Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 It's very difficult to be positive and happy around her. I know she feels it and it makes things worse. I understand that. I think it would be easier for you to feel positive about it if you actually saw some actions rather than words from your wife. However, if she means business now is the time to show that she does. I believe James's viewpoint that perhaps your wife will only ever realize and truly want to change once she has lost it all...or she could become like my mother and play the victim card forever and never find the motivation to change her ways. I am confident that you will know when the time has come for you to make your final decision. Everybody has a limit to how much they can try and believe in a person. But until then...ignore what has been and focus on what is right now. The past makes no difference to if you will stay or not - the presence and present actions from your wife does. Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 But until then...ignore what has been and focus on what is right now. The past makes no difference to if you will stay or not - the presence and present actions from your wife does. Excellent statement. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 Excellent statement. yes, it is... I only wish I could believe in it... Link to post Share on other sites
silverfish Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Perhaps the only way she will change is after you have left. Then she will realize what her obsessions, anxieties, and her past have done to her family and life. And she will change out of a true motivation to improve her life and future. Sadly, you may never benefit from that change, but at least she will be a better person. Just a word of caution...I left my ex H hoping it would change something, and he met someone else 3 months later. Be prepared for it to be permanent once you leave, if that's what you decide to do, or decide pretty strict rules you would both stick to if it's a 'trial' separation. I think the persom who is left feels a lot of resentment and in a way has the moral high ground with friends, family and so on, whatever led up to you leaving, so be prepared for some drama on that front. Link to post Share on other sites
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