You're being financially responsible but she thinks you're being stingy

[Gerhard]

mem, go back and read his other threads. While I think that Justlooking is being overly-dramatic, this marriage lacks respect, on both sides.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "lacks respect". Other than her demands to throw away things I don't want thrown away, there is virtually nothing she does that I don't have respect for. The issue with money isn't so much that she spends a lot (she doesn't spend a lot), but when I can't provide her with extravagances, she fails to recognize that it's due to us following a budget and not because I'm being stingy, tight or cheap. I don't really lack respect for those who misinterpret actions in situations like this. But I do lack respect when one doesn't listen when I explain the facts. And I would expect the same amount of respect if I were in her shoes.

[Ronni_W]

but when I can't provide her with extravagances, she fails to recognize that it's due to us following a budget

Gerhard, sorry if I missed it -- is this a budget that you BOTH had input into and MUTUALLY agreed upon? Or is it something that is being forced upon her? Whether or not she is earning any income, she is still entitled to have a say in how the FAMILY income is allocated/spent.

 

Is she not working by choice, or is it that you prefer to have her at home? (It doesn't sound as if you mind that she doesn't have any income of her own -- sometimes one prefers that because it does give much more control over the other.)

 

In any case, have you considered using an unbiased 3rd party to help you and your wife get on the same page...or at least start reading the same book? A professional financial advisor/planner or the person who manages your retirement funds? Or you could find out if there's a specialist on staff at your bank. Or Google 'family budget', download whatever worksheets and templates you find, and work on it TOGETHER.

[Gerhard]

Gerhard, sorry if I missed it -- is this a budget that you BOTH had input into and MUTUALLY agreed upon? Or is it something that is being forced upon her? Whether or not she is earning any income, she is still entitled to have a say in how the FAMILY income is allocated/spent.

As I'm the sole provider in the household, it's a budget she married into. She does have a say as to how the income is spent. But there is a difference between calling me "stingy" when I'm actually being fiscally wise and pointing out to me that she got less "fun money" last month than I did.

 

Is she not working by choice, or is it that you prefer to have her at home? (It doesn't sound as if you mind that she doesn't have any income of her own -- sometimes one prefers that because it does give much more control over the other.)

She's not working due to reasons outside the scope of this discussion. She's planning on going to work, but at the moment is not working.

 

In any case, have you considered using an unbiased 3rd party to help you and your wife get on the same page...or at least start reading the same book? A professional financial advisor/planner or the person who manages your retirement funds? Or you could find out if there's a specialist on staff at your bank. Or Google 'family budget', download whatever worksheets and templates you find, and work on it TOGETHER.

Unfortunately she doesn't show interest in the budget. I've printed up other things that are number or logistics related and she isn't interested in the fine details. She's not a numbers or logistics person. She's more interested in the bottom line. So I tell her what the bottom line is, yet she still complains that I'm being stingy when I'm really being fiscally wise.

[2sunny]

why do you stay?

 

and don't tell me it's because you love her. that would involve respect from both parties... have you asked her why she's disrespecting you so often in this partnership?

 

bottom line is - if SHE wants more money - she can work - even if it's a menial job. nothing should be a barrier from her working 4-5 hours a day so she can spend a little more of HER money.

 

if she wants more - see how willing she is to make an effort.

[Tayla]

why do you stay?

 

and don't tell me it's because you love her. that would involve respect from both parties... have you asked her why she's disrespecting you so often in this partnership?

 

bottom line is - if SHE wants more money - she can work - even if it's a menial job. nothing should be a barrier from her working 4-5 hours a day so she can spend a little more of HER money.

 

if she wants more - see how willing she is to make an effort.

 

I agree in part. Earned income is just that. Earned.

 

Short of the circumstance of Ill health or limited mobility of the spouse, it stands to reason that the Husband is LOOKING to prevent financial shortcomings. It sounds like respect from the husband to share the budget sheet, yet the wife only wants the *why* answered without listening. It doesn't take a rocket science to understand- Money in, money out.

Maybe I come from the old school, roof over head, food on table, heat/ac/ and bills paid is enough. Anything after that is not a Priority.

[Sam Spade]

What do you think might be more sensible manners?

 

Well, it seems like you have a bit of a "take it or leave it" attitude with your wife and the budget, and it looks like the budget is non-negotiable. I don't know how much wiggle room your budget has, but nobody likes to be told "that's that, end of story". I'm not saying shell more money, but at least go over it together and agree on it. Then it will be much harder for her to complain, because she agreed to it

Otherwise, if I were you I'd keep some money well hidden on the side (the "momma don't know fund" ). If she keeps boiling in resentment and eventually divorces you, it will be Mr. John Law that will have say on how your income and assets are to be divided .

[Gerhard]

Well, it seems like you have a bit of a "take it or leave it" attitude with your wife and the budget, and it looks like the budget is non-negotiable. I don't know how much wiggle room your budget has, but nobody likes to be told "that's that, end of story". I'm not saying shell more money, but at least go over it together and agree on it. Then it will be much harder for her to complain, because she agreed to it

Otherwise, if I were you I'd keep some money well hidden on the side (the "momma don't know fund" ). If she keeps boiling in resentment and eventually divorces you, it will be Mr. John Law that will have say on how your income and assets are to be divided .

Maybe this will make things a little bit more clear. She's saying I'm stingy or cheap because I can't buy her a $45,000 luxury car (because that's what my ex-wife had) when all we can justify is a ~$5,000 used car. And I've told this very clearly many times. She also expects $3,000 diamond earrings because I got that for my ex-wife. But the ex-wife worked, my financial situation was better then and I'm called stingy. Just how can one be stingy if they are giving 100% of what they can? She would be more in line if she were to say she's upset that we don't have more money in the budget to buy "fun things" than to say I'm stingy.

[Ronni_W]

because I can't buy her a $45,000 luxury car (because that's what my ex-wife had) ... She also expects $3,000 diamond earrings because I got that for my ex-wife.

Do you know if it is her normal pattern to equate "expensive stuff" with love, caring, respect, admiration, closeness (whatever specific emotional voids she is trying to fill), or is this something new that she's developed since being in relationship with you?

 

Possibly her focus on, and need for, these types of things is a symptom of something else? In which case, perhaps you can help her uncover what she is really missing in her life and daily experiences? And/or reassure her that she's not in competition with your ex, and the "stuff" that you helped your ex acquire is not a reflection on how you feel about her?

 

Have you two considered couples' counseling? -- might be a place to start, to bring things back to a saner place for each of you.

[carhill]

Anyone, man or woman, who demands materials things from their partner, is a 'problem'. I don't care if it's because daddy didn't buy them a tricycle when they were little. They're adults now. Time to pull up the big boy and girl britches and act like one, or continue on the present path and become single. I'm so happy I came to that conclusion before it killed me

[carhill]

I'll go back through the thread. My first impression when reading the OP a number of days ago, while I was traveling, was that this guy was frustrated much in the same way as I had been in my M. Happy to change my opinion

 

For continuity, here was my original response:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2390802&postcount=25

[mem11363]

Donnmaybe,

I read your original post and thought that you were giving another good example of how sometimes rational and irrational money management styles are best resolved by ending the marriage.

 

You were supporting Gerhard - and he hammered you - very strange reaction. As for your ex - the fact that he rents a "room" in a house at 42 says it all. I bet if he had learned from you he would be in a very different situation.

 

As for why Gerhard is unwilling to "jointly" agree to a budget with his wife:

- As long as Gerhard splits the fun money evenly between them, then he is being fair. Full stop. He said he IS doing that. He does not have to negotiate a "reduced savings rate" spending plan with her just because she is choosing not to work. His "choice" to save a high percentage of income is wise.

- She is choosing not to work. Why is everyone focusing on Gerhard? I don't understand the comments from Ronni - and others talking about how this should be a "mutually agreed upon budget". She is unhappy about their lifestyle and wants him to stop worrying about the future and give her more "stuff" right now.

 

As for the "hole" she is trying to fill shopping - LOL - I am not smart enough to "analyze" her behavior other then to say she seems to be very fixated on his ex-wife, on mementos of her, any communication he has had with her (the ex), and even the standard of living she had.

 

For anyone who still thinks Gerhard is stingy:

I knew a 48 year old guy named Gary. A very nice fellow and an intelligent person who was a plumber and was self employed for much of his adult life. He lived "in the moment" and never really saved any money. He chose not to get BCBS health plan because it was "too expensive". Thing is, he could afford it, he just chose to spend his money elsewhere. 9-10 months ago - feeling not quite right, he went to the ER - they did some tests and found lung cancer. It had not yet spread. The operation would have been 30K-40K including aftercare. But it had a very high chance of success. His net worth at the time - was about $1,000. When the hospital passed on the request for financial add to their aid department it was denied. He lived with his GF who is my kids piano teacher. She also lives from paycheck to paycheck and could not help him. He just died on Monday.

 

Life is almost always more expensive then we expect.

 

 

 

Nope. I have lots of friends and never lost a one over something like money, and they know I'm generous as much as I am capable of being so within the confines of my budget. I have no clue why you would jump to such a conclusion. Did you miss the part where my ex, at 42, still has to rent a room - not an apartment, a room - in someone's house? Why THAT little tidbit of info didn't clue you in to the reality of the situation is beyond me.

 

Perhaps your wife isn't the problem. Maybe you're not really listening to her in entirety.

[carhill]

So, what's the current boundary? I'm in the process of building my own, so I, and apparently other posters, will benefit from knowing how wiseguy carhil duz it.

1. Proactive interest. A woman will have to demonstrate to me proactively that she grasps the concepts of budget and finance. Any woman who says 'money is not important' and its various and sundry permutations designed to feign lack of materialism is immediately disqualified from further existence in my world

 

I'll add others as I read through the thread. I'm catching up and want them to be relevant but not redundant. I'm not wise, though I think I was wiser when I was single

[The Collector]

"Buy me a $35 000 car or I'll call you cheap."

 

The nerve of some people...

[carhill]

It started with bawling for Barbie

[2sunny]

i must be on ignore because he never addresses my questions as to his past threads and the fact that his wife tries to throw out anything and everything that is considered his momentos.

 

you can't erase history. if she wants something - she should earn money and buy it herself. does she think that women were put on the earth to have men buy them stuff?

 

even if you bought her something - anything - it will never be enough - she will always ask for more. so what does she have next on the wish list? just try keeping up with that kind of person... it's exhausting as she will NEVER be happy and it will NEVER be enough.

[Trialbyfire]

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "lacks respect". Other than her demands to throw away things I don't want thrown away, there is virtually nothing she does that I don't have respect for. The issue with money isn't so much that she spends a lot (she doesn't spend a lot), but when I can't provide her with extravagances, she fails to recognize that it's due to us following a budget and not because I'm being stingy, tight or cheap. I don't really lack respect for those who misinterpret actions in situations like this. But I do lack respect when one doesn't listen when I explain the facts. And I would expect the same amount of respect if I were in her shoes.

Sure, I'll elaborate.

 

• You want to take nude and swimsuit photos of your wife, she's not willing, so you're determined to do it anyways, with nude or swimsuit models, even though it's just a photographic hobby and there's no reason to do this.
  
• Your wife constantly goes through your things, to find out if you're still in touch with your ex-wife.
  
• Your wife wants you to match the gifts given to your ex-wife.
  
• Your wife wanted to visit her ex for 5 to 10 minutes and you put your foot down on it.
  
• Now, you're complaining about her complaining about your budget.
  

Where's the respect in this marriage? Where's the communication beyond two people stomping their feet like little children?

 

Go to marriage counseling to learn how to communicate with each other. She has a jealousy issue that needs to be addressed. You have a lack of empathy and sensitivity for her needs, including the b/s attitude of my way or the highway.

[Gerhard]

Do you know if it is her normal pattern to equate "expensive stuff" with love, caring, respect, admiration, closeness (whatever specific emotional voids she is trying to fill), or is this something new that she's developed since being in relationship with you?

I think it's just her way of venting at me since she's jealous of my ex-wife and that I was in a better financial situation when with my ex-wife.

 

Possibly her focus on, and need for, these types of things is a symptom of something else? In which case, perhaps you can help her uncover what she is really missing in her life and daily experiences? And/or reassure her that she's not in competition with your ex, and the "stuff" that you helped your ex acquire is not a reflection on how you feel about her?

It's obviously a symptom of something else. I've told her it isn't a reflection on how I feel about her, but she doesn't listen if she's all boiled up in an emotional fit. So I write her a note. I've also assured her on many times that she isn't in competition with my ex.

 

Have you two considered couples' counseling? -- might be a place to start, to bring things back to a saner place for each of you.

It was one of the first things I tried to do to settle things down, but she refused.

[Gerhard]

Nope. I have lots of friends and never lost a one over something like money, and they know I'm generous as much as I am capable of being so within the confines of my budget. I have no clue why you would jump to such a conclusion. Did you miss the part where my ex, at 42, still has to rent a room - not an apartment, a room - in someone's house? Why THAT little tidbit of info didn't clue you in to the reality of the situation is beyond me.

 

Perhaps your wife isn't the problem. Maybe you're not really listening to her in entirety.

I wasn't jumping to a conclusion about you. I believe I prefaced what I said with "perhaps". Over the years, I've known many people who were very prudent with money and did very well, but were not the type to give to others. Did they all lose friends? No. But people who flaunt their riches as if they are saying, "look what I have and you don't have it", tend to rub people the wrong way. Hopefully you're not like that.

[Gerhard]

Donnmaybe,

I read your original post and thought that you were giving another good example of how sometimes rational and irrational money management styles are best resolved by ending the marriage.

 

You were supporting Gerhard - and he hammered you - very strange reaction. As for your ex - the fact that he rents a "room" in a house at 42 says it all. I bet if he had learned from you he would be in a very different situation.

 

As for why Gerhard is unwilling to "jointly" agree to a budget with his wife:

- As long as Gerhard splits the fun money evenly between them, then he is being fair. Full stop. He said he IS doing that. He does not have to negotiate a "reduced savings rate" spending plan with her just because she is choosing not to work. His "choice" to save a high percentage of income is wise.

- She is choosing not to work. Why is everyone focusing on Gerhard? I don't understand the comments from Ronni - and others talking about how this should be a "mutually agreed upon budget". She is unhappy about their lifestyle and wants him to stop worrying about the future and give her more "stuff" right now.

 

As for the "hole" she is trying to fill shopping - LOL - I am not smart enough to "analyze" her behavior other then to say she seems to be very fixated on his ex-wife, on mementos of her, any communication he has had with her (the ex), and even the standard of living she had.

 

For anyone who still thinks Gerhard is stingy:

I knew a 48 year old guy named Gary. A very nice fellow and an intelligent person who was a plumber and was self employed for much of his adult life. He lived "in the moment" and never really saved any money. He chose not to get BCBS health plan because it was "too expensive". Thing is, he could afford it, he just chose to spend his money elsewhere. 9-10 months ago - feeling not quite right, he went to the ER - they did some tests and found lung cancer. It had not yet spread. The operation would have been 30K-40K including aftercare. But it had a very high chance of success. His net worth at the time - was about $1,000. When the hospital passed on the request for financial add to their aid department it was denied. He lived with his GF who is my kids piano teacher. She also lives from paycheck to paycheck and could not help him. He just died on Monday.

 

Life is almost always more expensive then we expect.

Very well said. I wasn't trying to hammer donnmaybe, but I realize it came out that way. So my apologies. I was just trying to show that wealth doesn't necessarily equate to having friends or happiness. I'd bet that the average African bushman is happier than the average Fortune 500 CEO.

[Gerhard]

i must be on ignore because he never addresses my questions as to his past threads and the fact that his wife tries to throw out anything and everything that is considered his momentos.

 

you can't erase history. if she wants something - she should earn money and buy it herself. does she think that women were put on the earth to have men buy them stuff?

 

even if you bought her something - anything - it will never be enough - she will always ask for more. so what does she have next on the wish list? just try keeping up with that kind of person... it's exhausting as she will NEVER be happy and it will NEVER be enough.

My apologies for not responding to your posts. Please lead me to the questions I didn't answer and I'll address them. She's planning on going back to work soon. And I'm almost certain her complaints about me not buying her expensive things is just another manifestation of her jealousy of my ex-wife.

[Gerhard]

Sure, I'll elaborate.

 

• You want to take nude and swimsuit photos of your wife, she's not willing, so you're determined to do it anyways, with nude or swimsuit models, even though it's just a photographic hobby and there's no reason to do this.

This isn't really a big issue. It's an issue if I wish to further pursue that type of photography, as I'll have to either a) talk my wife into being a model; b) find another model; c) use someone else as a model.
BTW, I think it was someone else who brought up nudes. You may want to revisit that thread. Modeling shots is all I want to do. Nude or bikini or other type of modeling shots. And if I do that, I'd prefer to shoot photos of my wife. Two reasons: I don't think it's fair to her to use someone else as a model and she's model-worthy.
 
 

Your wife constantly goes through your things, to find out if you're still in touch with your ex-wife.

She can no longer get a reaction out of me when she does this, so it's pretty much come to a halt. The things that are of value to me that I think she would throw away without my approval have been put out of sight (in a safe place) and/or have been duplicated.
 

Your wife wants you to match the gifts given to your ex-wife.

As I said to both ronni and 2sunny, it's very clear she's doing this as a manifestation of her jealousy of my ex-wife. She's a highly non-materialistic person by nature.
 

Your wife wanted to visit her ex for 5 to 10 minutes and you put your foot down on it.

That was also a manifestation of her jealousy of my ex-wife.
 

Now, you're complaining about her complaining about your budget.

Where's the respect in this marriage? Where's the communication beyond two people stomping their feet like little children?

 

Go to marriage counseling to learn how to communicate with each other. She has a jealousy issue that needs to be addressed. You have a lack of empathy and sensitivity for her needs, including the b/s attitude of my way or the highway.

She began engaging in behavior that I felt was detrimental to the relationship. Even if it had been someone else, I would still say the behavior is detrimental to a relationship. Since she wouldn't go to counseling, I looked for ways to put a stop to her behavior. I'm not a seasoned veteran at this, but I tried various tactics - some of which seem to work and some of which obviously didn't work. In my efforts to get her behavior to stop, I may have shown what would otherwise be a lack of respect. But it was intended first and foremost to correct her behavior with respect to her attitude and fixation on my ex-wife.

[Angel1111]

I'm horrible with numbers and I loved it that my husband would deal with the finances. But we actually did them together, which was the better scenario. I never sabotaged our finances but I did need some leeway, and did need to feel that we could enjoy ourselves at times. We both worked full-time so there wasn't the situation of one working or earning a significantly bigger amount then the other. That shouldn't matter anyway when you're married - you should have a budget and agree on it together.

 

I think you and your wife need to do the finances together. If she says she doesn't want to do that, then let her know that she's putting herself in the position of not having any say in the budget.

 

Dave Ramsey has a fabulous 13-week course that is taught at different churches all over the place. You don't have to be religious to go, and the course is really excellent. Dave is very big on getting a couple on the same page with the budget. I think his website is daveramsey.com.

 

If your wife refuses to work with you in any way and just wants to complain and sabotage the finances, then this is a dealbreaker.

[mem11363]

Angie,

Perfectly said. Ramsey has a great radio show.

 

Gerhard, You said your wife is not materialistic, just a bit fixated on your ex-wife which is causing these behavioral issues.

 

Is there a reason she has not come to the realization that you are over your ex, and that you truly love her, and love her more then your ex?

 

I have been sympathetic to your situation from the first post in this thread - and I still am - it is just a mystery to me that she could be SO crazed about your ex wife without some substantive justification.

 

I sure hope you can reassure her, because it must feel really bad for her to be in your ex wifes giant "shoes" so to speak. Is there simply some attribute of your ex she feels she can't compete with: Vogue cover girl, Doctorate from Stanford? Or do you just have some residual feelings that she is able to accurately pick up on?

 

You seem like a very balanced, rational person and I don't think you would stay with a crazy woman. So if she isn't crazy, then maybe there is a basis to her issues with your ex. Earlier on I though Ronnie and others were off base - now I think they were just a few steps ahead of me....

 

I'm horrible with numbers and I loved it that my husband would deal with the finances. But we actually did them together, which was the better scenario. I never sabotaged our finances but I did need some leeway, and did need to feel that we could enjoy ourselves at times. We both worked full-time so there wasn't the situation of one working or earning a significantly bigger amount then the other. That shouldn't matter anyway when you're married - you should have a budget and agree on it together.

 

I think you and your wife need to do the finances together. If she says she doesn't want to do that, then let her know that she's putting herself in the position of not having any say in the budget.

 

Dave Ramsey has a fabulous 13-week course that is taught at different churches all over the place. You don't have to be religious to go, and the course is really excellent. Dave is very big on getting a couple on the same page with the budget. I think his website is daveramsey.com.

 

If your wife refuses to work with you in any way and just wants to complain and sabotage the finances, then this is a dealbreaker.

[2sure]

Gerhard...

 

I just want to offer a little insight, that will hurt me but might help you.

 

Regarding household money, our budget, the bills etc....

I am like you describe your wife...just not a numbers girl. Not interested in figuring out the budget, no real skill at the logistics . Ive never been good with money.....

And my husband doesnt expect me to be. I'm sure it bothers him sometimes, but he really seems to think my lack of interest is due to my just not being able to do it.

 

OK. I am a partner in a profitable small business. I do all of the books, payroll, everything myself. I am treasurer of TWO organizations my H and I are involved with...and this is not petty cash but 100s of thousands of dollars. Yearly, I DO our taxes - both personal and corp. and only after I have completed them do I submit them to accountants.

 

If I wanted to keep track of my visa, Gerhard....I could.

 

Your wife just doesnt want to. And ....its kind of a passive aggressive thing to do.

[carhill]

OP, try this: "I feel taken advantage of and disrespected".

 

That'll shut her up, if my experience is any guide

 

The key is sharing how you feel, not projecting philosophies onto others, including your wife. The clearest way to get your 'point' across is to communicate how another's actions affect *you*, rather than attacking or criticizing them. I had to work on this in MC, as I have a propensity to talk 'at' someone rather than 'with' them when I am irritated or upset. Picture a phone headset with the earpiece nowhere near the ear

 

Personally, I'd just call it an incompatible day, but you know your M best. Good luck