clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Like a couple of people have mentioned, men simply cannot be honest about any unfairness they feel exists within male-female dynamics without this kind of reaction, while women remain free and are actively encouraged to complain about anything men ever do. They won't give up their victims-who-can-act-as-selfishly-as-they-please privileges without a fight, the little flowers. As men the only way I've found to effectively deal with this is, as was posted earlier, try to be the one who has options. I have zero interesting EXERCISING those options, but having them available restores a sense of balance to the relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The Collector, until that silly list gets consolidated to some of the real issues, where even those are non-issues if you pick the right partner, my ears are plugged to victim mentality. People are individuals. Link to post Share on other sites
HsMomma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Equality is not 50/50. To view a relationship based solely on "give and take" and the measure of one's contribution must be matched by your partner with an equality that you alone determine, will always bring disappointment and resentment. People in happy "equal" relationships find the good in their partner and appreciate them for the uniqueness that they alone can give. It's inappropriate to judge them because they don't satisfy your expectations but rather you should enjoy and relish what they do bring and keep your expectations to what it is that you expect of yourself. There is nothing that one can say to over turn how the OP feels towards relationships, one can always find fault with an imperfect world. The truly happy person sees the imperfection as a reflection, and is accepting. I agree that equality is not always 50/50 - there are times/circumstances where one partner may be giving 90% & the other only 10%. My h & I have been going through an incredibly rough time since May with his delibilitating back injury & I have stepped up to the plate & been the one who has (gladly, by the way) been giving the 90%. When I had to have surgery a few years ago, HE was the one giving 90%. We don't keep score - that's what true equality is all about - knowing that between the two of you, it'll all be 100% in the end. OP, I do think that you are very bitter & regardless of the fact that you've said you would "listen to the women" if giving concrete examples, when they've been given, you've refuted them all. You know, if you look back at history (which you seem fond of doing, referencing loss of life over the years during wars), you will find that BOTH genders have things that have been unfair thrust upon them. Shoot, we women couldn't even vote until 1920. Do men today have it hard? Yep, sometimes. Do women today have it hard? Yep, sometimes. As my daughter likes to say, "Life's tough...get a helmet!" Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 1. Men are conscripted; women are not. 2. Men are sent to fight in wars; women are not. 3. Men retire later than women (even though, due to their lower life-expectancy, they should have the right to retire earlier). 4. Men have almost no influence over their reproduction (for males, there is neither a pill nor abortion - they can only get the children women want them to have). 5. Men support women; women never, or only temporarily, support men. 6. Men work all their lives; women work only temporarily or not at all. 7. Even though men work all their lives, and women work only temporarily or not at all, on average, men are poorer than women. 8. Men only "borrow" their children; woman can keep them (as men work all their lives and women do not, men are automatically robbed of their children in cases of separation - with the reasoning that they have to work). Interesting list, from the author of the book cited by the OP. Link to post Share on other sites
HsMomma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Interesting list, from the author of the book cited by the OP. And yet, I find myself sitting here thinking, "Interesting or not, it's still CR*P!" Talk about over-generalizing & making ALL or NOTHING statements...I would imagine anyone on any side of the issue could find numerous authors to support whatever "theories" they have on the evils of the opposite sex. I just think that, to take them as truths, is a real injustice (to either gender). Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 And yet, I find myself sitting here thinking, "Interesting or not, it's still CR*P!" .... numerous authors to support whatever "theories" they have on the evils of the opposite sex. The author is a woman, actually. She goes on to say: .... Only as far as the sixth point is concerned, has there been a significant change. In the more entertaining spheres of work, there are more and more women who happily and willingly work and still keep their jobs despite having the children they nevertheless desire. But only a few of these women would be prepared to offer a life of comfort not only to their children but also the children's fathers, supported by their often substantial salaries; and fewer would further be prepared, in case of a separation, to give up their home and offspring and support the next admirer with what is left of her income. Also, men would not like it: emancipation may be fine, but to be "kept" by a woman is still not acceptable - housekeeping and raising children is not worthy of a "real" man. Sadly, women's manipulation of men is as topical today in the UK as it was back then, but so are the measures which could be used to end it - to the benefit of both sexes. I find it mostly true and also very interesting in light of such discussions as the recent "Fathers Rights" thread, where women for the most part want to keep the new rights (absolute control over reproduction) and not take on any of the responsibilities. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 As for 50/50, both should be giving 100%. Link to post Share on other sites
HsMomma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 As for 50/50, both should be giving 100%. I agree, clv0116, but see my post above about 50/50 or even both giving 100% - sometimes, that's just not how life works. I'll gladly give much more than 50% when my h is not in a position (as with his injury) to give nearly that much. A perfect world would indeed be both giving 100% all the time, but we don't live in a perfect world. Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The Collector, until that silly list gets consolidated to some of the real issues, where even those are non-issues if you pick the right partner, my ears are plugged to victim mentality. People are individuals. People are individuals. With many things in common. That list is about specific gender inequalities commonly experienced by men, and are applicable to many who do pick the right partner. But the picking the right partner argument has flaws. If 99% of men were abusive and disloyal and, er, werewolves who might eat you, would be it the only response to be 'well, you've got to find the right one?' Or would women be justified in have a public debate on these matters? Or would they be shamed and mocked (or eaten by a werewolf)? Not all women are treating their partners badly, and are all about the fairness, I'm sure. If that's you, good work. But the list - well, it's not full of bitter attacks on women, just some inequities that could be discussed, rationally, on a relationship forum, maybe. Link to post Share on other sites
Left in a Lurch Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I think if you take the list point by point many are very true, but as a whole you can't use it to do any more than generalize the whole gender dynamic. I have met women that can make me laugh. I have met women that are driven to be successful professionally. There are plenty of women that do not get overly emotional. There are many women that are extremely giving and do things to make men happy. I do agree with a lot of the things being expected of men being unfair, but life is never fair and never will be. The part of women I like the most is that they are not like me, so I get exposed to more things and see another side of life I wouldn't get exposed to hanging out with the guys. I like to be needed for my strengths and rely on a woman for her strengths, that is what makes for a complete package. I think you take the good with the bad, and I like being a man and fitting that role. I like to do many typical male things, but that does not make me the typical male that falls under any major generalization. You could make a list like this pointing out the burdens for women that men don't have, and point by point some things would be true other things wouldn't for any man, so I don't think you can take a generalization and say it is absolutely how it is. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 A perfect world would indeed be both giving 100% all the time, but we don't live in a perfect world. Which is precisely why both should try for 100%, otherwise the sum of efforts will someday inevitably add up to too little. Link to post Share on other sites
HsMomma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I do agree with a lot of the things being expected of men being unfair, but life is never fair and never will be. The part of women I like the most is that they are not like me, so I get exposed to more things and see another side of life I wouldn't get exposed to hanging out with the guys. I like to be needed for my strengths and rely on a woman for her strengths, that is what makes for a complete package. I think you take the good with the bad, and I like being a man and fitting that role. I like to do many typical male things, but that does not make me the typical male that falls under any major generalization. You could make a list like this pointing out the burdens for women that men don't have, and point by point some things would be true other things wouldn't for any man, so I don't think you can take a generalization and say it is absolutely how it is. CRH, I think you're now one of MY heroes...well said! Link to post Share on other sites
HsMomma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Which is precisely why both should try for 100%, otherwise the sum of efforts will someday inevitably add up to too little. Which is exactly what I said earlier, clv - it all adds up to 100% together, even when it isn't a day-to-day 50/50. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Not all women are treating their partners badly, and are all about the fairness, I'm sure. If that's you, good work. But the list - well, it's not full of bitter attacks on women, just some inequities that could be discussed, rationally, on a relationship forum, maybe. You dreamer. All you want is to have your needs met! How dare you impugn the little princesses! Sigh. The list is mostly real and will be mostly undiscussed in a rational way. The ridiculous number of men killed on the job compared to women should be enough of a wake up call but no, it's not apparently. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Which is exactly what I said earlier, clv - it all adds up to 100% together, even when it isn't a day-to-day 50/50. On the very worst day the sum of two peoples efforts might add up to 100%, to aim for that as a target is asking for trouble. In all honesty I think most people are doing well to average maybe a 70% effort day in and day out, so that does give some margin for safety. To aim for a sum of 100% is to invite failure. Link to post Share on other sites
HsMomma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 On the very worst day the sum of two peoples efforts might add up to 100%, to aim for that as a target is asking for trouble. In all honesty I think most people are doing well to average maybe a 70% effort day in and day out, so that does give some margin for safety. To aim for a sum of 100% is to invite failure. As spoken to a woman whose relationship has flourished for over a decade with our paltry 100% total... Link to post Share on other sites
HsMomma Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 You dreamer. All you want is to have your needs met! How dare you impugn the little princesses! Sigh. The list is mostly real and will be mostly undiscussed in a rational way. The ridiculous number of men killed on the job compared to women should be enough of a wake up call but no, it's not apparently. Ahhhhh....more members of the He-Man Woman Haters Club come to the party...welcome, gentlemen! Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 ha, after reading the first post I knew the next 8 pages would consist of little to no debate of the actual points raised, but instead of the womenfolk of the Parish attacking the OP as a misogynist, leaving emoticon-heavy 'that was hilarious' type comments, and much female bonding as possible as they lined up to quote each other's humorous attacks and irrelevant jokes. They might as well post '#LA LA LA WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!#' LOL. Damn, if only I had the time, I'd try to make a misandrist analogue of what the OP is saying, EXACTLY the way he says it. Evident lack of intelligence and logic, total bullheadedness towards the people who try to debate with him seriously.. all of that. And I'll count how many males will seriously and honestly debate on the 'points' I raise. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 As spoken to a woman whose relationship has flourished for over a decade with our paltry 100% total... Congrats - you've made it to the hump: Duration 0-2 years: 10,316 3 years: 8,288 4 years: 8,907 5 years: 8,983 5-9 years: 40,599 10-14 years: 29,831 15-19 years: 20,923 20-24 years: 15,028 25-29 years: 9,662 30 years and over: 9,934 Median duration: 11.3 years Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Not all women are treating their partners badly, and are all about the fairness, I'm sure. If that's you, good work. But the list - well, it's not full of bitter attacks on women, just some inequities that could be discussed, rationally, on a relationship forum, maybe. That is just it Collector. It IS full of bitter attacks on women. Especially women who don't fit the the list. The OP posting it and asserting it's contents are the norm, not just for him -EVERYONE. Then women read it and see it isn't full of factual or commonalities. This is why the list is bitter. To the OP, it may be the only types of relationships HE has. Maybe this is true for you too.......and that is unfortunate. However, None of it applied to me or most women I know. Do we suddenly not exist for having not dated the OP or you? It just ends up with the OP sounding like he is throwing a tantrum rather than take a glance at who he has chosen to date. And to me, it would sound that way no matter what gender the OP was. I am a mother; I know a tantrum when I see it. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The AVERAGE female cannot orgasm multiply either. And even if you once have done this, it does not mean it always happens! If you're going to have vagina envy, at least envy a real vagoo! Link to post Share on other sites
redtail Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 On the very worst day the sum of two peoples efforts might add up to 100%, to aim for that as a target is asking for trouble. In all honesty I think most people are doing well to average maybe a 70% effort day in and day out, so that does give some margin for safety. To aim for a sum of 100% is to invite failure. Okay, let's not say 100% then if the computation of 100% of someone's daily effort is tripping you up. Since this is a relationship we're talking about and not batting averages, percentages and keeping track really don't apply nor do they really serve us in establishing what we are looking for, happiness. Perhaps rather than a percentage, let's say that our goal is that we strive, on a daily, weekly, yearly basis, to make our partner happy? And along with that goal, we look at the things that they do for us, and appreciate them as afforts to make us happy. Link to post Share on other sites
redtail Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 ... If you're going to have vagina envy, at least envy a real vagoo! Ok, now that's funny right there.... Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Ok, now that's funny right there.... Well I HAD to take it there; Donna used up veejayjay. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Oh, why bother to go through this line by line any more. Collector, you are so wrong. This entire post is about how women are selfish, self centered, egotistical takers and users/abusers. I call BS! Actually that list seems more to be about social conventions that were historically in place to regulate men into no abusing women. The argument seems to be that, like labor unions, those conventions and practices exist long after they have ceased to be useful. The author is a female who is serious about feminism progressing. Link to post Share on other sites
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