Prenup! At what point do you reveal prenuptial interest?

[Billy Bob]

I know I can sound misogynistic at times but there is a reason why there isn't even a term called walkaway husband. Women are much more likely to wake up one day, decide they are not happy and want out and they will be mighty pissed because they resent you for not being their fantasy man. Some men are lucky enough to marry a woman who is not like this but many aren't and they need to protect themselves.

 

Hah hah, Woogle your posts were some of the first one's I read when I joined LS a few years ago. I thought you sounded a real negative prick, since I was going to save my marriage and read books and be more emotionally supportive for my walkaway wife. Well, you hit the nail right on the head!

 

Back to this thread; Trust, I don't have too much insight into prenups... didn't have on the first time around.

 

But when to bring it up? Well you could just put the ball in their court, wait until they bring up marriage and then respond how you are not sure, since you have already been divorced and lost a fortune. Then tell them you would have to have some sort of pre-nup to protect your business and see how they respond.. then again you probably don't want to invest the time and energy into dating someone and have it go that far if she won't sign a prenup!

 

Catch 22.. I really do feel for you, you are going to have trouble really knowing the true motivations behind a girls interest.. unless of course you meet a girl with a similar monetary worth.

[trust]

I think where this a great imbalance between the prospective partners - such as age, assets, children to be provided for etc etc, then a prenup makes perfect sense.

 

That's my practical side - in reality I would probably turn and say "I hope you and your prenup will be very happy together, cos I'm gone"

 

hahhaha! Hey, I would *totally* understand. No harm no foul. I like a firm woman who knows what she wants. And I would probably be checking out your butt as you walked away....as a single non-married man of course.

[trust]

Castillo..castilla..I can't remember your name as I'm choosing to not read your posts. Let me dumb this down for you... I can't hear you! lalalalalalalalalalalalalala!

 

Sorry..had a few drinks and I tend to get a bit silly. But seriously, go away please, my child.

 

There's an old quote from Epictetus (he's a wrapper) that may benefit you as you are walking out this thread's door:

 

"Practice yourself, for heaven's sake in little things, and then proceed to greater."

 

Little things = puppy love threads

Greater = prenup threads

[Speckles]

Walking into a marriage and pretending that divorce is not a option is a trap, because it is an option. It may seem romantic at first, but more times than not that attitude causes divorce much more than prevents it. Nothing makes you more unappreciative, and less caring than when you have a mate that you don't have to work to keep. Sad fact.

 

 

Your right, a prenup doesn't protect a marriage. But... Why do you need to hold money over his head to keep him with you? Is that the kind of marriage you want? One where your husband is afraid to leave because you would leave him living in a cardboard box? Not me... I believe in love, and while a prenup doesn't protect a marriage... I think it protects real love.

 

Yes, you definately appreciate someone more when you put in work into keeping him/her around. The truth is I would rather my husband be afraid to leave me than to just leave me because he doesn't want to work with me on making our life great like it once was. That's the less evil of the two. I suppose I could sign a prenup that states if he leaves me he will have to live in a cardboard box. But then again, I would not be marrying a guy that I would have to ask to sign a prenup. I know that people change in age, appearance, earning potential, personalities, etc, but if I choose wisely I will find someone whose heart will remain the same. If you have parents that love you--they have loved you for as long as you have been alive. If you have a child, you will mostly love them for all of his/her life. Why do those relationships last for lifetime? I think its because we give a lot of meaning to it. Then there's marriage. Many people this day and age want to give up when the going gets tough with their spouse. That was never an option for the relationship you have with your parents or your children. If you don't want to take that mentality with your spouse and your marriage or at least take your time and choose wisely then I would definately consider the possibility of divorce in that case.

[carhill]

Wow your parents stayed married? You were one of the lucky ones. I was raised by a very loving single mom. They divorced when I was 5. My dad died a slow painful death as well about 3 years ago (had a cigarette addiction that he thought he could handle).

 

Yes, and my mother took care of my dad at home the last 4 years as he slowly died of cancer (he was a lifelong smoker too, quitting the day before he died). They were married 31 years when he died. That said, I think it's quality which makes the impression on the developing mind (that's me ) rather than quantity of years married. Fortunately, as a CPA, dad was able to continue working somewhat at home while ill and my mom and I learned a lot from him during those years, allowing my mom to successfully live and thrive on her own after he died, never involving herself with a man again. It was quite an example, in some ways. The trust he set up is part of my package of tools to protect their legacy and commitment to my pursuits.

 

If I were in your shoes, I'd be considering exactly what you are. No prejudice here. I hope it works out well for you

[trust]

Speckles: may I respond to your post? I wanted to ask you that so that you wouldn't call me a lier. I did say that I was only looking for answers to the prenup questions. But you've mentioned some things...in some grey areas that I feel I may need to challenge you on. It won't hurt. I promise.

[Speckles]

Trust....uh-oh. okay. I will even try to keep it short.

[trust]

My dear Speckles:

 

I can see why our way of thinking is different. You are an emotional being. And I love women for that. I wouldn't want them to be any other way. You are mixing love with assets. My assets are not an extension of who I am. They are not my love. They are separate. I won't be taking them with me, but she won't be rewarded with my assets for her bad behavior when/if she bails either. Also want to mention, as I think you may be painting an inaccurate picture of me without first asking questions; my assets are not of primary importance in my life. My assets are a result of my hard work. They are also separate from my happiness. I never said or implied that happiness equates to assets. Nevertheless, those assets need protection from thievery.

 

This scenario is just ridiculous for me to even lay out because I am a person who would be careful and not impulsive when I choose 'who' in the first place

Ummm...just a little bit of a contradiction here... you've already agreed that people change so...no matter how good of a job you do in picking your spouse (not saying you should not exercise due diligence), your spouse may very well turn on you one day. You may not be as strong as you think you are. You're strength is not an absolute. It's only a degree and it does have its breaking point. It's your job though (assuming some integrity has been instilled in you), to keep the bar of integrity high thus keeping your strength high. Simply put, to *strive* for perfection, knowing full well total perfection is unattainable.

 

Maybe I am just paranoid, but I think it is kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't want to think about the negative. I don't want to open my mind to the possibility of a failed marriage.

(sigh)(another long sigh)… I know I have a lot of posts on this thread but I'm going to repeat something here just in case you may have not read it...It bothers me just a liiiiiiitle bit to hear buzz words used in not so appropriate contexts...such as the one you are using...and in the context we are discussing (prenup leads to self-fulfilling prophesy). To that I say, Speckles, cancel your car insurance today. You are attempting to cover a loss in the event that it may happen. Follow your own advice and stop that! It will turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Rainbows and butterflies, and *your* good decisions, will get you safely to your destination. Do you see how that doesn’t make sense to me?

 

 

Someone was the weak link in your marriage. In my marriage, it won't be me or my husband.

hahahaha With all respect, I'm sure you were thinking that very thing when you got that tatoo of your "love's" name on that sexy hip. Did you learn nothing from watching "Rock of Love with Bret Michaels"? There's *always* a weaker link. No two people are equal. Someone will screw something up in some category - guaranteed. Then it comes down to the seriousness of the "breach" and whether you let the bad behavior slide...and then for how long...

 

We are going to marry each other knowing that. I need my partner and I to think 'together forever' and 'till death do us part' from the start and believe in our hearts that that is the direction to go.

I've never found a situation where this rule did not apply: "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst". I *am* thinking together forever. It's all how you look at it isn't it? That's why I renamed the prenup to "the together forever agreement" The glass is half full, not half empty, Speckles. Your belief you carry in your heart will have little bearing on his option to stop believing in his heart, while he makes a stupid decision and takes you down with him. Love is a *choice* for you just as it's a *choice* for him. I didn't hear you define what love is but I have a hunch there are issues in your concept. Here's a very important point: Your *complete faith* should *never* be in a non-perfect human being. Do you still not see this? Better learn that lesson right now for your own sake.

 

 

But then again, I would not be marrying a guy that I would have to ask to sign a prenup.

This makes no sense. You’ve agreed people change. He may *become* someone who you had wished signed a prenup. Please see my above paragraph that speaks of the same issue.

 

If you have parents that love you--they have loved you for as long as you have been alive. If you have a child, you will mostly love them for all of his/her life. Why do those relationships last for lifetime? I think its because we give a lot of meaning to it.

Uh huh. Give a lot of meaning to those relationships? Yes. But that’s not the primary reason. Those relationships are fundamentally different. I’m surprised at you on this one as well. Your birth from your mother will never be broken. It is what it is. Your marriage is defined by a *contract* that *can* be broken. Marriage is *supposed* to be two unions. One is the spiritual union, til death do you part, the other is the civil union, til divorce (civil law) do you part. So of course they have a lot of meaning, a lot of *different meaning*.

 

Then there's marriage. Many people this day and age want to give up when the going gets tough with their spouse.

Yes, and your “loving spouse” is in that same set of people. You are not special. Neither is he. Not in that sense.

 

If you don't want to take that mentality with your spouse and your marriage

Again, your “mentality” has little to nothing to do with the option your spouse has to bail out.

 

If we end up splitting up after all, then I don't think it would be because we stopped loving each other.

Careful. Now you are starting to sound like a prenuper…. I meant a “together-forever-er”

 

 

I don't know what the reasons could be but in that scenario I would still think that he were great and would make an awesome husband to another woman and vice versa and so I would want him to be living just as comfortably as when he was living with me as a non working spouse or at least living a comparable lifestyle to the one that I am about to live when we do a 50/50 split. No ill will. Perhaps remain friends.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAH!!! Oh man that was great! How noble of you in your hypothetical situation! Hahahahaha…Oh my gosh…hold on..I can’t type and laugh at the same time… Do me this favor, go down to your local courthouse, any weekday of your choice, find the room where the divorce proceedings are taking place (preferably a child custody one) and tell me how much nobility you see there. You can even go back, for free, take an average, and get back with me. You’re cute though. Hahahha Man that was funny….

 

Well, it’s already bad enough to lose and for my marriage I don't need the burden of thinking that I should have given my all from the get go and maybe we would still be happy together.

That’s not what I’m saying. I never made that suggestion. You’re still missing it here… I can take that same example and show you how the owner of that team, planned for a win, but prepared for a loss. But it’s my bedtime. I will be back though.

 

Now for my predictions: Do you know what I think you are going to do? After having heard this preponderance of support, you’ll tire at all the effort it takes to sort it all out, hold on to your “rainbows and butterflies” emotions… then go the non-prenup route…and learn your lesson the hard way. Too bad so sad.

 

See, that didn’t hurt you did it? If so, it was just growing pains! And if you claim I broke my promise..then to that I say, our relationship is not one of friendship, merely acquaintances, if that. Had you exercised due diligence in reading my prior posts, you would have learned that my loyalty and trust are earned, not given out. So shame on you for not having seen that coming. This was great. Goodnight!

[Jersey Shortie]

Originally Posted by Jersey Shortie

A woman could very easily say that..."it seems to me that if a man really loved me...he wouldn't need me to sign a prenup and know that I am not marrying him for money and assets. If he doesn't, it shows that he has no trust in me, and that his interests lie in protecting his "stuff" over protecting "us" and the relationship. It shows that he has no trust in the person I am and already things the worst of me and that he cares about his things more then me"... you so see how that argument can work both ways don't you?

 

 

No, that doesn't work both ways. For the simple reason that when signing the pre-nup... you stand to lose nothing that you do not already have. Does it really show a lack of trust? No, it shows a lack of naivette and blind faith instead. Your argument is based on the idea that trust is predicated on a lack of change. Do you walk into a marriage trusting that your husband will not age? It's ludicrous to believe that things and people do not change, and it doesn't show a lack of trust or faith in you. The person you are today, with all of your hopes, dreams and feelings... is NOT the same person you will be in 5 years, in 10 years.

 

Of course it works both ways. Saying something conditional like..."If you loved me you would do x,y, z"; in any situation is a manipulation. You think that if a woman really loved you, she would sign a pre-nup. I think that if a man really loved me, he wouldn't need me to sign one.

 

And I never said no one doesn't change. But you are staring off the marriage with the idea that 1) you don't really trust this person and 2) don't have much faith in them...and 3) are already thinking about getting divorced.

 

I'm not saying I don't understand why a man would want a pre-nup. But I know that if my husband-to-be came to me with one, I would feel that we had less of a union. And I would always be left wondering exactly what he considered "his", and if he really and sincerely wanted to share that with me or was more worried about me taking something away from him.

[Order & Chaos]

Okay what is with the sexism in this thread!?!

 

Why is it that it is assumed that the man has the money?

Why is it assumed that the woman is going to screw over the guy?

Why is it assumed that the woman is the emotional one?

 

With as well as my current marriage is wrapping up I can tell you that if I were to marry again there would absolutely be a prenup. For me personal, if someone can't look at all sides of things and can't comprehend and prepare for a possible demise then it is probably someone that isn't for me.

 

On the filp side, anyone I get serious with again, we are going to do counseling BEFORE marriage and stay in and out of counseling throughout it to help stop any minor issues from becoming larger.

 

So yes, I will have my assets covered in case the worst case scenerio pans out but I am going to also have safe guards in place to prevent that from happening.

 

My motto now, after going through all of this is to stay in touch with reality, all reality all the time!

[trust]

Speckles: I have just a quick sec to finish up from last night. So here it is:

 

 

As for your “team” example. I’m glad you picked that one, but not so good for you as it is for me. You are confusing some things here. You are talking about positive thinking. Heck, I won’t argue with that one. Positive thinking is, hands down, a good idea. Works great most of the time. I am trying to explain to you the other part, which is what we *do* that goes along with what we *think*. What the players think - “thinking of a positive outcome” is different than the actions they are taking. Sure, they’re going out there and giving it their all, fueled by positive thinking. But what do you think they are doing as well? I can safely bet you, if they will keep their money very long, they won’t be *betting the farm* on the outcome of that one game they’re playing, now will they? Why? Because in your example, there will be a winning team, and there will be a losing team. So you think it’s wise to think positive *and* bet everything you have on the game? If so, Vegas called. They have a spot for you at their casino, and it’s not at the Blackjack table.

[trust]

I appreciate the interaction I've been getting with those who have been participating in this thread, and I'd like to continue discussion. I'd much rather battle it out with anonymous girls instead of doing it in real life and maybe running off girls who may have been compatible.

 

I really think delivery will play an important part in explaining this whole together forever agreement.

 

I left out the prenup details when I setup the initial post intentionally. I wanted to see if any girl would actually ask me to explain myself before they started shooting it down. None of you did. Shame on you.

 

What I find most interesting is this: Since I started this thread, *not one time* did I have a girl ask me, "So, trust, could you kind of tell me in a nutshell how your together forever agreement works?" I even hinted to it. And why did no one ask? It's because girls in our culture have been wired to shoot down the prenup the second they hear the name. The second they saw "prenup" in the thread title they just couldn't *wait* to click on "post" and start shooting away! hahaha This is why I later changed the name. You should watch the expressions on a girl's face when I start the whole thing...I try to wait until she stumbles across the subject...and then I say that if I get married again, I have this together forever agreement that I'd like to do in addition to the vows. The girl's face will light up. "Really? What's that?", she'll ask. And as I start going over the main points, I look at the clock as I'm watching her face to see how long before it dawns on her that that "deal" sounds similar to a prenup. Interesting thing is they are more perceptive to it and will actually give it a chance before they immediately think "Uh,no" and start shooting it down.

 

My together forever agreement is quite a bit different than the *assumptions* most have made about it. My agreement puts the fault back in the no-fault. If *I* cheat - *I* lose my assets. "Ohhhhhh...", the girl will now say. Since it's not lopsided, now it starts to get interesting, doesn't it? What I'm trying to get across to the girls is that I'm a guy, I have lots of assets, I'm in a no-fault state (my family is here and I'm not moving), if I get married again, and she makes incredibly bad decisions and bails, she gets rewarded for bad behavior. It's lopsided from the get go. I'm just trying to balance it back out.

 

Ladies, your marriage is a written contract. The together forever agreement is just an addendum. The courts made a decision to delegate down many details of what happens in the divorce (making all divorces no-fault). I'm only picking up the slack. Are you seeing what I'm saying yet?

 

Adultery is taken too lightly. What's next? Make murder no fault?

[sb129]

I didn't really need to know the details to support your decision. I understood why you wanted a prenup, and I thought it was fair enough.

 

Now that I do know the details, I think you are being pretty generous really- you are giving someone a guarantee that you won't cheat. Well, as much a guarantee as you can give.

I can't see what the problem with that is.

 

I like the way you call it a "together forever" agreement!

[Untouchable_Fire]

Yes, you definately appreciate someone more when you put in work into keeping him/her around. The truth is I would rather my husband be afraid to leave me than to just leave me because he doesn't want to work with me on making our life great like it once was. That's the less evil of the two.

 

I think I understand where your coming from on this.

 

If you marry someone, and you need to rely on fear to make him stay with you... then your marriage sucks. You need to believe in yourself more. Believe that a man will find you worth every effort. Fear is not an emotion you want in a marriage.

 

You will find someone who makes the effort for you.

 

I suppose I could sign a prenup that states if he leaves me he will have to live in a cardboard box. But then again, I would not be marrying a guy that I would have to ask to sign a prenup. I know that people change in age, appearance, earning potential, personalities, etc, but if I choose wisely I will find someone whose heart will remain the same.

 

Do not rely completly on your own ability to choose men. You have been wrong so many times before.

 

You fear a man will leave you if you don't have something to hold over his head? Blackmail like that kills love.

 

If you have parents that love you--they have loved you for as long as you have been alive. If you have a child, you will mostly love them for all of his/her life. Why do those relationships last for lifetime? I think its because we give a lot of meaning to it. Then there's marriage. Many people this day and age want to give up when the going gets tough with their spouse.

 

See, what your searching for is unconditional love. However, if you really think about it... even your ideal marriage, contains conditional contracts.

That was never an option for the relationship you have with your parents or your children. If you don't want to take that mentality with your spouse and your marriage or at least take your time and choose wisely then I would definately consider the possibility of divorce in that case.

 

Maybe it's simply your youth speaking. You want things from your future husband... there are things you will expect of him, and he will have expectations of you. Unless your both willing to give that up you cannot give or recieve unconditional love.

[torranceshipman]

I am 32 and I'd sign a prenup, for sure...I'm dating a wealthy guy at the moment and I think a lot of his friends have been burned before, so if he felt like he needed to be cautious, fair enough! As long as there was sufficient provision in there that I wasn't left completely out on the street (say, for example, if I'd given up work to raise our kids, etc and didnt have sufficient income of my own at the time we split)...and that the kids were always well provided for. To me, it's the guy that is the big prize-I couldn't care less about the money (-: and being idealistic, I would hope we'd grow old together and it would never be an issue for that reason anyway. I'd bring it up in a straightforward way too, if I were you, I wouldnt worry about skirting around the issue.

 

The only thing thatd bother me is the feeling that the guy might not trust me, by asking this, but if it is a genuine concern/principle of his, I'd roll with it.

[sb129]

I am 32 and I'd sign a prenup, for sure...I'm dating a wealthy guy at the moment and I think a lot of his friends have been burned before, so if he felt like he needed to be cautious, fair enough! As long as there was sufficient provision in there that I wasn't left completely out on the street (say, for example, if I'd given up work to raise our kids, etc and didnt have sufficient income of my own at the time we split)...and that the kids were always well provided for. To me, it's the guy that is the big prize-I couldn't care less about the money (-: and being idealistic, I would hope we'd grow old together and it would never be an issue for that reason anyway. I'd bring it up in a straightforward way too, if I were you, I wouldnt worry about skirting around the issue.

 

The only thing thatd bother me is the feeling that the guy might not trust me, by asking this, but if it is a genuine concern/principle of his, I'd roll with it.

 

Well said TS.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Of course it works both ways. Saying something conditional like..."If you loved me you would do x,y, z"; in any situation is a manipulation. You think that if a woman really loved you, she would sign a pre-nup. I think that if a man really loved me, he wouldn't need me to sign one.

 

You can't ask him to trust you, when you won't trust him. If you trusted him then a prenup would be a non issue. Instead your saying that you don't have to trust him... instead he has to trust you.

 

With the prenup, then you both show equal trust, because neither of you have anything to GAIN from leaving.

 

So your reasoning is backwards.

 

And I never said no one doesn't change. But you are staring off the marriage with the idea that 1) you don't really trust this person and 2) don't have much faith in them...and 3) are already thinking about getting divorced.

 

All three of those points are untrue. A prenup in reality removes the short term benefit from a divorce.

 

By saying you don't want one... what your actually saying is that you want the option to gain assets from a divorce. So, in reality your the one who is going into the marriage thinking divorce, because your trying to put yourself in the best position for one. With a prenup both of you neither gain nor lose... thus you enter on equal footing.

 

I'm not saying I don't understand why a man would want a pre-nup. But I know that if my husband-to-be came to me with one, I would feel that we had less of a union. And I would always be left wondering exactly what he considered "his", and if he really and sincerely wanted to share that with me or was more worried about me taking something away from him.

 

Is it really the feeling that you have less of a union? Or perhaps is it more a feeling that you had lost some control?

 

It's easier to walk into a situation holding all the cards than it is to enter on equal footing. If you need to have have leverage... what kind of a partner are you in reality?

[Jilly Bean]

I am 33, and you could spring this on my at any point. Early few dates, after the proposal. All is fine with me.

 

BUT, that's only because I would ask a guy to sign a pre-nup for me! No man is snatching my pot of gold.

[sb129]

 

BUT, that's only because I would ask a guy to sign a pre-nup for me! No man is snatching my pot of gold.

 

What about the pot of honey?

[Jilly Bean]

What about the pot of honey?

 

LOL. Couple of nice dinners, few bouquets of flowers, and it too, can be yours!

[carhill]

I think a woman who thinks about a prenup to protect herself is PDS (that's pretty da*n sexy). That tells me she values herself, her talents and her ability to achieve her own independence and financial freedom. She makes her own "security" and wants to share her "life" with a man of her choosing. Good on her. Where do I sign?

[sb129]

LOL. Couple of nice dinners, few bouquets of flowers, and it too, can be yours!

 

Thanks for the offer, but I am not really into mixing the honey if you get my drift...

 

:0

[trust]

Thanks for the offer, but I am not really into mixing the honey if you get my drift...

 

:0

 

Ya know, I isolate myself for a large portion of the day, just so I can get stuff done. I used to keep the Comedy channel on in the background just to get a few good laughs to keep me in good spirits. Now I just flip over to this forum. You ladies are a trip. Thanks for the laughs.

[trust]

Walking into a marriage and pretending that divorce is not a option is a trap, because it is an option. It may seem romantic at first, but more times than not that attitude causes divorce much more than prevents it. Nothing makes you more unappreciative, and less caring than when you have a mate that you don't have to work to keep. Sad fact.

 

GOOD POINT!!!!!!!! And I'd like to add to that:

 

It's a classic case of "testing limits" and WE ALL DO IT. In my case, also relating to your point, my wife thought, "Wow, this guy is serious, he absolutely does not believe in divorce. He wants to work everything out." And ya know what? The moment when the desire to make the bad decision becomes greater than the consequence of the bad decision, that's when the choice is made to do the wrong thing. That desire is a combination of things. It's both the gratification of doing the act, and also the opposing force of built up resentment. This is especially common in folks with a lack of conscience, and low to no integrity.

[Jilly Bean]

Thanks for the offer, but I am not really into mixing the honey if you get my drift...

 

:0

 

Damn these androgynous profile names! I don't mix the honey either. Just use a stiff stick to stir the pot...

 

Carhill - Im like a freakin' leprecaun when it comes to my money.