Prenup! At what point do you reveal prenuptial interest?

[trust]

No one is saying that people don't change. And while I do understand why someone would want a pre-nup, it would still sit with me that we woudln't be staring our marriage as a partnership but more of him being concerned about his *things* and me being concerned with *mine*.

Then if you agree that people do change, then the prenup makes more sense. It's a choice of the least smelly route...there is no good route.

But I completely disagree with the conditional... "if you loved me you would sign/not ask me to sign a pre nup.." that's ridiculous manipulation either way.

I disagree with the conditional too. I'm not the one who said that. That was a rookie poster.

[Calisto]

You are bitter with your own situation but I think there are two sides to every story, honestly. Men like you are always going to claim to have been the perfect husband but it's usually not the case. You look at factors like 'OH I provided for her,etc. but often guys like you with your kind of anger are not emotionally supportive or don't really realize that they have been emotionally absent the entire marriage. Even if it's not true, there's no way to prove that. Or you just weren't compatible and while cheating is wrong, it happens. It's how some people end up dealing with an unhappy marriage. Might not be right, but it happens. If she was unhappy, it's not her fault.

 

Then if you agree that people do change, then the prenup makes more sense. It's a choice of the least smelly route...there is no good route.

I disagree with the conditional too. I'm not the one who said that. That was a rookie poster.

[sb129]

I

What I am piecing together from what you have told me is this (help me think this out if you spot an issue that doesn't sound quite right): Maybe it would be be ideal for me to find some girl who is at the level of financial success as I? But when I think about that, I've just dropped the percentage of possible candidates by a HUGE factor.

Thank you for all of the great information. Oh and sb129, don't forget to answer my questions from above.

 

Reporting for duty sir!

 

You know, maybe finding someone who has her own assets isn't going to be as difficult as you think.

If you are aiming for people within your age group and with a similar level of education (which most of us do) then you may be surprised at how many women there are out there with assets etc.

 

Hell, you may even find a divorcee who wants to protect what she took from her first husband!

It all depends on where you are looking.

 

I am getting married this year, and while we aren't having a prenup, I really don't see the big problem some people have with them. Divorce rates are high, people change, and men AND women can stand to lose more if they don't protect themselves.

 

I don't think anyone should be penalised for wanting a prenup, esp if they have been burnt once.

 

 

I have a few problems with this post, as it is quite contradictory.

I don't know, I don't see marriage as a business arrangment. Most people getting married don't have that much to begin with anyway

 

OK. So if marriage isn't a business arrangement, and you believe in true love and all that, then this:

 

Although online dating, I have gotten a lot of responses from lowlife losers who hardly make anything because my salary is pretty decent so I think they are looking at my profile and saying "Sugar mama!" lol

 

is a total contradiction.

You are calling these people "losers" because they don't make anything, and you are striking them off your potential date list because you think they only want to date you because you make more than they do.

 

After all, dating isn't a 'business arrangement"- according to you, it shouldn't matter how much money either of you have.

[sb129]

If she was unhappy, it's not her fault.

 

Not necessarily.

 

Yes, there are two sides to every story, but if one person isn't happy, it doesn't automatically mean that its the fault of the other party.

[trust]

OP, my opinion would be to discuss it at the point where you are considering getting engaged (assuming a typical engagement period). The better represented the parties are and the more arms-length the agreement is, the better it will stand up in court.

Hi Carhill, and thanks for joining in. By what I'm gathering from other women here... I think it might be a better idea to prepare them for it a little sooner than that. It seems more of a "trick" or "strategic" move if you do it later on. If I flip the table and pretend like someone had asked me, I would wonder if this person intentionally waited... to gain my trust...my love...my time... my effort...build history...get to know my family... THEN told me about it... I'd be pretty upset. Especially if I assumed the prenup, and all the stigma attached to it, would not favor me (not to say my prenup doesn't favor the woman). Not that I would be bothered by the prenup itself of course, just that the way it was introduced would seem manipulative. As they say in my business, disclose disclose disclose.

 

That said, you will have to weigh the potential legal and emotional costs of enforcing the prenuptial agreement, which will place additional burdens on the divorce process. They can and are contested and can be overruled by the court. I looked at this and decided to use other legal means to protect certain assets essential to my livelihood, as I don't have a large income or amassed wealth to protect or children to distribute it to unfettered.

*Very* good point not brought up yet. Going through with it *will* have an emotional toll. I'd like to hear from someone who is doing the prenup. I want to know if they would be honest enough to tell me how that's going either way. That was a concern of mine.

All I will say in regards to the interpersonal relationship dynamic is that people can and do change and history is often re-written to match current reality and psychology. This is true for both men and women. None of us is without responsibility.

Exactly.

 

Hope things work out for you. Early and honest are my last words

[trust]

You are bitter with your own situation but I think there are two sides to every story, <snip>

 

It's no coincidence you have two ears and one mouth, my child.

[carhill]

IMO, discussion of any legal arrangements prior to a serious announcement of a legal commitment potential, like becoming engaged, would be counter-productive. Prior, there is no expectation of a legal commitment, ergo no need to contemplate legal matters regarding the partnership. One exception would be a commited relationship in which marriage would never be an option, by agreement of the parties, and where both of the parties wish to spell out their wishes for commingled and separate assets legally, for personal and/or inheritance purposes. Such a dynamic might pertain to common-law jurisdictions and/or same-sex partnerships, as examples. Another exception would be if there was no traditional engagement period contemplated.

 

Editorially, I now walk around my parent's now-empty house (my dad died years ago and I placed my mom in a dementia facility last year), look around and am glad that they never felt the need to or had to embrace such issues. Much more time for other things.

[trust]

Reporting for duty sir!

 

LOL ..that wasn't a command it was a sincere request. And thanks for taking part.

You know, maybe finding someone who has her own assets isn't going to be as difficult as you think.

If you are aiming for people within your age group and with a similar level of education (which most of us do) then you may be surprised at how many women there are out there with assets etc.

 

Hell, you may even find a divorcee who wants to protect what she took from her first husband!

It all depends on where you are looking.

LOL Yeah, and my ex is one of those women. I've met plenty of those women already. They are forever in the acquaintance category.

I am getting married this year, and while we aren't having a prenup, I really don't see the big problem some people have with them. Divorce rates are high, people change, and men AND women can stand to lose more if they don't protect themselves.

 

I don't think anyone should be penalised for wanting a prenup, esp if they have been burnt once.

 

 

I have a few problems with this post, as it is quite contradictory.

ok...you may want to stop right there. This girl is obviously on the low end of the emotional development pole. So what do they do when their arguments don't make sense to others who are more mature? They throw out more immaturity, this time fueled by emotion.. Don't even chase it. She's not here to learn. She's here to hate and instigate.

 

Calisto, honey, please move on to the dating and puppy love forum. There are grownups here. Toodles.

[trust]

IMO, discussion of any legal arrangements prior to a serious announcement of a legal commitment potential, like becoming engaged, would be counter-productive. Prior, there is no expectation of a legal commitment, ergo no need to contemplate legal matters regarding the partnership. One exception would be a commited relationship in which marriage would never be an option, by agreement of the parties, and where both of the parties wish to spell out their wishes for commingled and separate assets legally, for personal and/or inheritance purposes. Such a dynamic might pertain to common-law jurisdictions and/or same-sex partnerships, as examples. Another exception would be if there was no traditional engagement period contemplated.

 

And you're right. But you are assuming the discussion is the beginning of an agreement between the girl and I. During a discovery period (dating) I would hope discussions would be kept on an *abstract* level...meaning, hypothetical speech and such... I don't have to suggest that I am interested in doing *this* with *her*, I only need to let her know that *this* is what I believe. Do you get what I mean?

 

Editorially, I now walk around my parent's now-empty house (my dad died years ago and I placed my mom in a dementia facility last year), look around and am glad that they never felt the need to or had to embrace such issues. Much more time for other things.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know that must be a little tough for you. And I hope they enjoyed a life filled with love while they were married.

[BUENG1]

You are bitter with your own situation but I think there are two sides to every story, honestly. Men like you are always going to claim to have been the perfect husband but it's usually not the case. You look at factors like 'OH I provided for her,etc. but often guys like you with your kind of anger are not emotionally supportive or don't really realize that they have been emotionally absent the entire marriage. Even if it's not true, there's no way to prove that. Or you just weren't compatible and while cheating is wrong, it happens. It's how some people end up dealing with an unhappy marriage. Might not be right, but it happens. If she was unhappy, it's not her fault.

 

Classic, because people have no responsibility for their own lives, and their own happiness its always someone else's fault. And I dont see what any of this has to do with asking for a prenup or not.

[sfsassy]

I haven't been married or engaged, but I would be ok with a pre nup. I have seen several divorces, and I do think of marriage as a legal contract. (I am in the SF Bay Area, and the gay marriage thing has highlighted that point!!!!!!!!!!) I am also a romantic, but at this point am a practical romantic. I am in my 30's and I bet in my 20's I would have been against it, because I had an idealized view of love. Now after two heartbreaks , one ex with an ex wife and helping emotionally with my older friend's VERY messy divorce, not so much.

[carhill]

And you're right. But you are assuming the discussion is the beginning of an agreement between the girl and I. During a discovery period (dating) I would hope discussions would be kept on an *abstract* level...meaning, hypothetical speech and such... I don't have to suggest that I am interested in doing *this* with *her*, I only need to let her know that *this* is what I believe. Do you get what I mean?

 

I'm sorry to hear that. I know that must be a little tough for you. And I hope they enjoyed a life filled with love while they were married.

Yes, I understand the desire for a philosophical symbiosis, but it's up to you to gauge the balance of emerging emotional bonding versus the injection of such a reality, even if hypothetically couched. My experience, both in myself and with the women I know, is that we read between the lines of such conversations. Normally, most guys don't, but I'm a bit weird

 

Thanks for your sympathies. A long slow death is not a pleasant one. Yes, my parents had a good partnership that provided me with many signposts that have helped me in life. Nothing is perfect, thankfully, so I can draw my last breath knowing I was still learning and growing to the end

[Untouchable_Fire]

HAHAHAHA I new that was coming! That's why I never made that counter argument to begin with. That was a rookie mistake by the person who made that comment.

 

I disagree it's not a rookie mistake argument. It's a solid and correct line of thinking. In fact it's the answer to the question your asking.

 

A woman could very easily say that..."it seems to me that if a man really loved me...he wouldn't need me to sign a prenup and know that I am not marrying him for money and assets. If he doesn't, it shows that he has no trust in me, and that his interests lie in protecting his "stuff" over protecting "us" and the relationship. It shows that he has no trust in the person I am and already things the worst of me and that he cares about his things more then me"... you so see how that argument can work both ways don't you?

 

No, that doesn't work both ways. For the simple reason that when signing the pre-nup... you stand to lose nothing that you do not already have. Does it really show a lack of trust? No, it shows a lack of naivette and blind faith instead. Your argument is based on the idea that trust is predicated on a lack of change. Do you walk into a marriage trusting that your husband will not age? It's ludicrous to believe that things and people do not change, and it doesn't show a lack of trust or faith in you. The person you are today, with all of your hopes, dreams and feelings... is NOT the same person you will be in 5 years, in 10 years.

 

So, if your trying to make the argument that asking for a prenup shows a lack of trust. It's a false argument. In essence it creates a system where you CAN trust.

 

It means much much more when someone refuses to sign a prenup than when someone asks to have one signed.

[Calisto]

I am actually way more mature than you are. OK, you are making six figures and can overcome the financial aspect quickly. The financial aspect is what you're so POed about, but you can and sounds like you already have bounced back quickly! Not everyone can do this, so what are you whining about?

 

It is starting to become clear why your ex looked elsewhere....no offense. ANGER issues, anyone?

 

Sorry but just because someone doesn't believe the same way you do about prenups and such doesn't mean they are emotionally immature.

[Calisto]

Actually it is having foresite because I know to weed out guys early. It is not contradictory. By 'losers' i mean like rednecks, etc., who are in a league WAY below mine.

The dating process is about really getting to know someone. So you should be saving during the dating/relationship process. Obviously this guy didn't get to know this gal that well or was just immaturely blinded by love and denied the signs (if it is true that she didn't cheat because this guy has anger issues/emotional maturity issues and he was just the absolute perfect partner).

 

Reporting for duty sir!

 

You know, maybe finding someone who has her own assets isn't going to be as difficult as you think.

If you are aiming for people within your age group and with a similar level of education (which most of us do) then you may be surprised at how many women there are out there with assets etc.

 

Hell, you may even find a divorcee who wants to protect what she took from her first husband!

It all depends on where you are looking.

 

I am getting married this year, and while we aren't having a prenup, I really don't see the big problem some people have with them. Divorce rates are high, people change, and men AND women can stand to lose more if they don't protect themselves.

 

I don't think anyone should be penalised for wanting a prenup, esp if they have been burnt once.

 

 

I have a few problems with this post, as it is quite contradictory.

 

 

OK. So if marriage isn't a business arrangement, and you believe in true love and all that, then this:

 

 

 

is a total contradiction.

You are calling these people "losers" because they don't make anything, and you are striking them off your potential date list because you think they only want to date you because you make more than they do.

 

After all, dating isn't a 'business arrangement"- according to you, it shouldn't matter how much money either of you have.

[Untouchable_Fire]

In my point of view, 'good faith' does not even allow for the possibility of a divorce occuring. When I am thinking about marriage I don't allow the thought of divorce to enter that same picture. It is not even an option for me. I don't want to think about the 'what ifs'. If I hear a 'what if we split' then I may just ask the man to see what its like that very moment and leave. Actually no, that would be harsh and impulsive, but I would be dissappointed that he could even picture a life without me.

 

If I ever were to compromise my ideals and sign one, I almost think that it would make it all too easy for us to call it quits because the consequences for dissolving our vows would be much less severe. (Hollywood knows this). A prenup protects an individual. It does not protect the marriage. I wouldn't proclaim that it harms a marriage, but it certainly does not protect it.

 

Love is a universal concept and marriage may be as well. But prenups only exist where lawyers do.

 

I don't begrudge anyone for their difference of opinion. I hope that everyone finds a partner who sees eye to eye with them on such an important matter and go off and live happily ever after without the subject ever having to come up. That's what true love is -- its finding that very special someone who is right for you and living happily ever after with him/her.

 

Walking into a marriage and pretending that divorce is not a option is a trap, because it is an option. It may seem romantic at first, but more times than not that attitude causes divorce much more than prevents it. Nothing makes you more unappreciative, and less caring than when you have a mate that you don't have to work to keep. Sad fact.

 

It's not about preparing for life without you. It's about taking money off the table. When you marry a man... Do you want him to love you and your wealth? Or would you rather him just love you?

 

Your right, a prenup doesn't protect a marriage. But... Why do you need to hold money over his head to keep him with you? Is that the kind of marriage you want? One where your husband is afraid to leave because you would leave him living in a cardboard box? Not me... I believe in love, and while a prenup doesn't protect a marriage... I think it protects real love.

[AriaIncognito]

I've never been married, nor have I been engaged, but I've given the prenup idea a lot of thought due to a previous relationship.

 

I was in a relationship where I would have been the one bringing a lot to the relationship, financially, whereas the man was bringing nothing. I thought about whether or not I'd want to protect myself and I actually did somehow get his views on it and he was fine with signing one. Not that we ever took it that far, we were together for a year though.

 

I think, in this day and age, it's not a bad idea to protect yourself. It's a crappy reality, but it is that, reality.

 

I own my own home and have financial investments and whatnot, and wouldn't want my hard work being taken by someone who decided they no longer wanted to be with me. I'd assume the same would apply for any man I'm with.

 

So, I have no qualms about signing a prenup, should it come up.

 

Now, how to bring it up, that's a tougher situation. Only you know her and know if she might take it poorly. Personally, I brought it up to my one ex without much hesitation, becasue I wanted to know the answer. If he wasn't willing to sign one, I'd need to reconsider what potential I thought we had. I think you'll know when/where is a good time to bring it up. You can even bring it up in casual conversation somehow and see what her views are before getting into the fact that you want one, that's a safer route. If i remember correctly, that's how I did it.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Actually it is having foresite because I know to weed out guys early. It is not contradictory. By 'losers' i mean like rednecks, etc., who are in a league WAY below mine.

The dating process is about really getting to know someone. So you should be saving during the dating/relationship process. Obviously this guy didn't get to know this gal that well or was just immaturely blinded by love and denied the signs (if it is true that she didn't cheat because this guy has anger issues/emotional maturity issues and he was just the absolute perfect partner).

 

If you believe that the underlined part of your statement is a reason to cheat... then you are emotionally immature. I would say that is a reason to divorce him, not to run around with other men. So, do you really think that is a valid reason to cheat?

 

You can't chalk up a failed marriage to his bad choice in picking a partner either. People change over time. She could have been wonderful and perfect at the start. Some day your going to have to face the fact that people change over time.

[Calisto]

OP, if you are all in favor of prenups, then why didn't you get one in the first place?

Don't come in here stating everyone, no matter what, should insist on a prenup no matter what their situation, it applies to absolutely everyone and you are wrong if you state otherwise, when you are here just whining after the fact?????

[Calisto]

If you believe that the underlined part of your statement is a reason to cheat... then you are emotionally immature. I would say that is a reason to divorce him, not to run around with other men. So, do you really think that is a valid reason to cheat?

 

You can't chalk up a failed marriage to his bad choice in picking a partner either. People change over time. She could have been wonderful and perfect at the start. Some day your going to have to face the fact that people change over time.

 

 

Nope, I'm actually emotionally mature enough to know that there are two sides to every story and that it's not all as cut and dry. We do not know to the extent of what this young lady was going through, and to state it was a "valid" reason to cheat is very cut and dry and your own personal morality. It's not illegal to cheat. If you are pushed to that point,...well, you've not been in every marriage to know.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Nope, I'm actually emotionally mature enough to know that there are two sides to every story and that it's not all as cut and dry. We do not know to the extent of what this young lady was going through, and to state it was a "valid" reason to cheat is very cut and dry and your own personal morality. It's not illegal to cheat. If you are pushed to that point,...well, you've not been in every marriage to know.

 

Fair enough, there are two sides to each story.

 

However, your contention seems to be that she might have been validated in her cheating. I can tell you that is an immature position to take. Those of us who are mature, intelligent individuals know that whatever the state of the marriage, no reason validates cheating. You can't be forced to cheat. The fact that you believe this is so... shows where your at in terms of moral development.

 

Put some thought to it... and you will understand what I mean. We all are responsible for our own actions 100%.

[sb129]

I am actually way more mature than you are.

It is starting to become clear why your ex looked elsewhere....no offense. ANGER issues, anyone?

Sorry but just because someone doesn't believe the same way you do about prenups and such doesn't mean they are emotionally immature.

I don't think its your opinion on prenups that made him think that you are emotionally immature.

Just a hunch.

 

Actually it is having foresite because I know to weed out guys early. It is not contradictory. By 'losers' i mean like rednecks, etc., who are in a league WAY below mine..

 

In your last post you specifically mentioned money, so yes, it was contradictory given the topic at hand.

A prenup is just another way of weeding out people who you are or are not prepared to engage in a LTR with.

Some people may think its superficial and unromantic, but how is it different to only dating people who have a certain income level/ level of intelligence?

 

OP, if you are all in favor of prenups, then why didn't you get one in the first place?

Don't come in here stating everyone, no matter what, should insist on a prenup no matter what their situation, it applies to absolutely everyone and you are wrong if you state otherwise, when you are here just whining after the fact?????

 

1. He is in favour of prenups after being a romantic who ended up getting badly burned by his ex wife.

 

2. He isn't insisting that everyone get a prenup no matter what. He has decided that he will have one if he ever gets married again. If you read the original post, its actually asking for advice on how/ when to approach the subject of a prenup with a potential GF/ partner.

 

Untouchable Fire- you made some good points. Particularly about cheating and having to work to keep a marriage. Thanks!

[Lookingforward]

I think where this a great imbalance between the prospective partners - such as age, assets, children to be provided for etc etc, then a prenup makes perfect sense.

 

That's my practical side - in reality I would probably turn and say "I hope you and your prenup will be very happy together, cos I'm gone"

[Speckles]

Trust, I will try to answer your questions here and maybe add some extra info (as a preemptive action) in anticipation of further questions. I am a 31 year old Asian woman. I immigrated to Southern California from Asia when I was 3 y/o with my mom. I have a college education and a degree in microbio and molecular genetics to prove it. Science was going to give me a very safe and boring life... I am now designing clothes and feeling fabulous.

 

My family: We were dirt poor when we came here. My parents (mom mainly) worked hard and moved us up the social ladder. Parents are still married. My dad was a loser of a husband and a father. He still is. My mom is a compliant subservient wife. I only remember them arguing a handful of times in my life. Their interaction with each other is calm, but sparse to moderate. My parents never seemed happy. But they are still together. No end in sight of any type of separation except for inevitable death.

 

I was not familiar with the feeling of being 'happy' until I met my first love at eighteen. This was because my home was very tense, stressful, lacking warmth, and my parents were never happy. Where does a kid with protective parents who did not allow her to interact with the outside world (except school) learn what happy is? Forget about toys. We were that poor. No toys, no friends, no happy parents= a very sad and listless child. Anyway, I could go on and on about my childhood but the point is that I had never felt any love from ANYONE until I turned 18 years old.

 

Here's my analogy: If you were held in a prison for 18 years and were not allowed to see the light of day until the day you were released, you would not take sunshine for granted ever again after that day. At least I wouldn't. Sunshine is vital to life. I feel that way about love. I will not live without it. And if I could, why would I? Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of things going for me. I don't have any complaints nor should anyone who is in my position. If my boyfriend and I broke up today, my life would still be great from an outsider’s perspective. But it wouldn't take long for me to get seriously depressed and want to exit life IF I thought that I would never find it again.

 

My first love, also my Great Love, turned into someone else, almost overnight after we had been 'going out' for nearly 4 years. I thought that we were going to be together forever because I wanted us to. I had a small tattoo of his name put on my hip even. (The next BF got it removed). Our relationship was very intense. It hurt extremely bad when the only love I had ever known abandoned me. That was the worst pain that I had ever felt in my life to date. The only other feeling that I have ever felt that was more intense than that was love. All the other wonderful feelings that I've experienced, such as elation, giddiness, excitement, accomplishment, ecstasy, you name it, is pretty meaningless if I can't share it with someone close to me.

 

I would give anything to be that in love with someone again. My right hand, my left kidney, everything I own... And now that I think of it, I would even sign a prenup if I could be guaranteed that my future spouse and I will both feel that intense about each other until the day we die. On second thought, nah. I am going to explain why while answering your question as to why it didn't feel right and still wouldn't feel right if I signed one: In my mind, it does not make logical sense for me to be willing to give up every part of me and/or everything I own to possess this incredible feeling for the rest of my life but then to want to 'protect' 'MY assets' at the same time. I need love to survive. I don't need a nice house, a car, or my arm even because what is the point of having both arms if I would rather be dead because I have no source of the element that is vital for me to thrive as a happy and healthy person in life? I can do without all those things (my assets) and still be happy because I WAS without those things when I was happy in love. Okay, so you caught me, I had both my arms!

 

To answer another one of your questions: What I felt at the time when one of my ex's said that he'd want a prenup for his marriage was disappointment. I'd risk everything to feel like a million bucks for the rest of our lives but he would want to protect his stuff 'in case'. I want to be with someone who is as passionate as I am about giving my all to the most important thing I think a human being can have. (Have you heard the stories about neglected babies dying in China because they were not experiencing touch from other humans, much less love? Perhaps they made it to becoming a non functional toddler at best). That damn feeling is very important...

 

My ideal of love is being with someone who is right for me until the end of time. He/she (I don't think gender would preclude one from being my soul mate) may not be the best looking, the funniest, the wealthiest or the greatest person to have ever lived in the worlds eyes, and I may even agree. But I would not change anything about him. He would live his life for me. I would live for him. We both compliment each other and continually learn from each other. We wouldn't take being able to love each other the way we do for granted. We make each other feel happy to be alive. We're best friends. We have fulfilling intimacy (sex!) under the sheets and out of the sheets. So it is all of this and more... I could go on and on. It is critical that my future husband's passion in life be to live in this love with me because if he doesn't see eye to eye with me on these things that I have mentioned then it won't work. We both have to be passionate about wanting it and stopping at nothing to make it happen and keeping it alive.

 

I've been burnt a couple times. I've lost a good chunk of change to a rotten ex before. I have had more than my fair share of failed relationships. But I will fail until I succeed or I'll die trying. A lot of people seem to know how to utilize this attitude to advance their careers or to accrue assets. But why such a lack of passion to obtain or maintain love?

 

I know true love exists. I've seen it. I've seen couples who have been together for a long time and have it. I have a girlfriend who has 'it' with her husband. I've also had it. I've lost it because the timing was not right. I think that the right timing is just one of the elements that have to be in line with numerous others before we can experience this 'magic'

 

Trust, we are two very different human beings. Here's what I feel about money and marriage: If I earned all the money and made us a fortune while my spouse was at home doing nothing then lost half because I lost my spouse I would be more bummed (disappointed) that I lost what could have been true love. I would have given all my money to a voodoo doctor if he had the ability to keep my marriage happy. If my spouse had mistreated me and dumped me, as far as it relates to 'our' money and 'our' assets, I would see it just as such (ours, not mine or his) because 'we' made a choice together and both agreed at one time that the non monetary contributing spouse could be just that while the other one brings home a paycheck. So a 50/50 seems fair to me. If I wanted to complain about how much work I had to do to earn that money, I would have made it clear that I wanted my spouse to work also so that I wouldn't have to work as hard back when. We made the decision!

 

And what if I was loaded before getting married and then we divorce because I was dumped? I will be extremely angry, sad, and disappointed to say the least, but I will get over it. And if I am not left completely broke then I'll be fine as long as I do find the right person the next time. Being loaded is not my primary goal in life. And I will make every effort to make sure that who I want to marry is 'my soul mate' before I marry. Because I guess I wasn't as careful the first time. But I would not have my new to-be spouse sign a prenup. I'd rather us just cohabitate forever or find someone else that I could abandon all my fears with. This scenario is just ridiculous for me to even lay out because I am a person who would be careful and not impulsive when I choose 'who' in the first place

 

And the answer to your question about prenups predisposing a couple to failure: Maybe I am just paranoid, but I think it is kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't want to think about the negative. I don't want to open my mind to the possibility of a failed marriage. I know that you and Woggle disagree and you're probably biting down on your poor battered tongue right now. It's risky, you think. I'll take that risk which I don't even think is that great, for the very real possibility that I will have something very special and priceless.

 

If the worse happens then it happens but I don't want to feel as if I did not do everything that I could do to cultivate pure love and this includes sharing everything that I have: heart, soul, money without restrictions and limitations. It doesn't make sense for me to say that I want to be with someone forever and then turn around and say that forever is only until we split up. If I were the one in the relationship who had that mentality then I would be the weakest link. I just gave up on "forever" before it ever began. To quote you: "You will only be married as long as the person who cares the least about your marriage." I totally get that. Someone was the weak link in your marriage. In my marriage, it won't be me or my husband. We are going to marry each other knowing that. I need my partner and I to think 'together forever' and 'till death do us part' from the start and believe in our hearts that that is the direction to go.

 

If we end up splitting up after all, then I don't think it would be because we stopped loving each other. I don't know what the reasons could be but in that scenario I would still think that he were great and would make an awesome husband to another woman and vice versa and so I would want him to be living just as comfortably as when he was living with me as a non working spouse or at least living a comparable lifestyle to the one that I am about to live when we do a 50/50 split. No ill will. Perhaps remain friends.

 

If that long answer didn't make sense to you regarding prenups and its disposition for failure, then think sports... The Lakers (as far as I know) don't go into a game with the mentality that they may lose. They go in knowing that they are going to give 110% of themselves to make a win. If they lose that game, then I think that they would come out of it feeling better if they had done everything they could have to win than knowing that they held back trying not to get injured because there's a risk of losing. In that case, the player may blame himself for not having tried harder. "We might have succeeded if I had done this or that better in the first quarter". Well, it’s already bad enough to lose and for my marriage I don't need the burden of thinking that I should have given my all from the get go and maybe we would still be happy together. And maybe I can't explain it but I don't want to ever feel (while I am married) that I am protecting myself from my soul mate turning on me. That doesn't make sense. And if I am the villain then indeed, I should get thrown into hell for mistreating someone who loved me more than life itself.

 

If it became a requirement for everyone to have a prenup to be married in the U.S., I would go live in another country that is not preoccupied with it. In less developed countries it certainly seems that divorce and splitting assets are less of a problem. But for now, I think it’s wise to sign a prenup if you are getting married for any other reason than to work on growing a love with someone who makes you feel awesome to be alive. But if one's primary goals are to raise kids, have companionship, have financial convenience, etc, then someone call a filthy lawyer immediately.

 

OMG. No more profound questions please! I hope I answered all your questions to your satisfaction. Girls clam up when you ask them these questions because these are heavy questions requiring involved answers.

 

You can leave feedback to what I've written or say anything else you want without worrying that you will burst my bubble. My attitude is that I know what I want exists and I don't expect that anything this awesome comes easy.

[trust]

Yes, I understand the desire for a philosophical symbiosis, but it's up to you to gauge the balance of emerging emotional bonding versus the injection of such a reality, even if hypothetically couched. My experience, both in myself and with the women I know, is that we read between the lines of such conversations. Normally, most guys don't, but I'm a bit weird

 

Excellent point! And no you are not weird in my opinion (at least not yet :)Just kidding.) Thank you for that. I need to keep that in mind. But I have a tendency (whether good or bad...I don't know...guess it depends on the situation) to not take responsibility for a girls assumptions as she is getting to know me. Just so long as I've done my part with disclosure, I think I've taken the best path. I suppose it would make sense to mention all of what you just said...in addition to what I said??? When we start getting into how the other person feels, shouldn't they have the responsibility to sort those things out, just so long as I've been honest? I have thought that part of being an adult was learning to control your emotions as best you can.

 

Thanks for your sympathies. A long slow death is not a pleasant one. Yes, my parents had a good partnership that provided me with many signposts that have helped me in life. Nothing is perfect, thankfully, so I can draw my last breath knowing I was still learning and growing to the end

Wow your parents stayed married? You were one of the lucky ones. I was raised by a very loving single mom. They divorced when I was 5. My dad died a slow painful death as well about 3 years ago (had a cigarette addiction that he thought he could handle). Understanding oneself today includes understanding one's history. So recently, I went searching for pictures of myself right after their divorce (that's me in the avatar as a 5 year old with the Ted Koppel haircut ). Although pictures can speak a thousand words, I can't seem to find any sadness in my eyes in any of the pictures, only a bad haircut. I can't really remember how I felt then, but I choose to be happy today.