Tomcat33 Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 thanks BNB. i apprecite your advice & i understand your frustration. im sure hes doing something similar to his W (bolded part). what i dont understand is, WHAT, does he want from one or both of us???? i dont know what else i can possibly give him. at one point after i called off our A but while we were still talking (before NC), he told me he was thinking of telling his W he was in love w/ me & wanted to be w/ me. (kind of like his latest 'going public' plan... also half baked). i said okay. then he was like, wouldnt that be selfish of me? i said, well, continuing on the A w/ me, even just emotionally... but telling me you love me & want to be w/ me, while staying w/ her is selfish, so at least this would be selfish & honest instead of selfish & deceptive. he went on & on about how he thinks its the right thing to do & he would rather hurt her quickly w/ the truth then string it along w/ lying. i was like okay, good. then he asked me, would you feel guilty like you wrecked a M? I said, i feel guilty about having an A w/ you but thats why i stopped. i feel guilty about what we did but theres no changing that. if we're continuing this in any way shape or form then we are still doing the wrong thing & the right thing to do is either STOP or tell her. (thats actully when i started thinking about going NC if he didnt make a big change soon.) plus, he told me from the beg. that there M was horrible & they were seperated & getting D'ed & that it would be impossible to have these strong feelings for me is his M was good etc. so i reminded him of all that stuff he used to tell me whenever we were together & he was seperated & i was feeling bad like maybe i was the reason they were getting D'ed. he always told me i WASNT the reason at all, that hed be getting D'ed w/ or w/out me. but at that time when he was talking about telling his W the truth, he said, 'lets just say hypothetically that my M was kind of bad before you came along but i didnt really realise it untill you did. maybe we werent def. getting D'ed before you. so what? what does that matter, i still know that your the one i want to be w/ & i have these amazing feelings for, & that is a really good reason not to be M'ed to her.' i dont get it, its like he was trying to MAKE me feel guilty (guiltier, i already felt guilty) & now he is holding against me the fact that i feel guilty so maybe im not sure i want him or we would work out or something. when he said all that back then i said, 'if you are trying to tell me that you would not be getting D'ed if it werent for me, or even if your unsure if you would be, then i need to walk away. you always told me your M was over & you were in the process of D when you met me & it had nothing to do w/ me. so if now your saying that wasnt true, i need to leave. i could not look at her in the future knowing that you might still be M'ed to her if it werent for me.' then he was like 'no, im not saying that at all, it was just hypotheticals.' ?!?! i still think about that & wonder WHY he would give me hypos that arent true. he said 'i already knew my M was bad & we were already ending it & these feelings i have for you & the fact i want to be w/ you is just further proof of why i know for sure i need to get D'ed. plus when you broke off the A i went to MC & tried to work it out but it didnt work out even when you were long gone, so i know for sure that is has nothing to do w/ you. i was just saying, what if it did.' i think about all this & im so confused. like how could i have NOT felt like maybe i was wrecking there M when he told me that stuff. but after he told me that stuff (along w/ stringing me along & saying his D was coming very soon, when it wasnt/ didnt), then i left, to get away from it all. so NOW he is saying i didnt give him enough or show him enough that im sure i want to be w/ him. i mean how else could i have been... i have read some OW on here who tell the MM to come live w/ them while he goes thru the D, or who tell the MMs W so he'll pick her, etc. no offense to those OWs but that is NOT me. maybe he needed an OW like that. well then im not the right girl for him b/c i was NOT going to pull him away from his M, that is up to him to do. i think even my BEING there talking to him/ having an EA was maybe putting to much of an influence on him to leave (Even though he always said he WAS leaving anyway), & making me feel to guilty about his W & too mad to be being strung along by him too that i went nc. and now he holds that against me i guess, B/C i wasnt saying 'heres a nice house for us to live in & i will pamper to your every need while your still Med to your wife.' no way gross. maybe thats what he wanted me to do, like when he said 'im thinking i should tell my W' i would say 'ok, now we can live together & ill help you deal w/ all of that.' well i guess im not enough of a doormat for him and thats why he thinks im unsure. all i know is i cant give him one more ounce of me. he doesnt give me anything but words. and prolly the same to his W. (sorry BNB i didnt mean to go off on such a rant. im just in a crappy runchy mood) I'm sorry but he sounds like the type of guy that if you did end up together and after the honeymoon phase is calmed down and reality sets in, he will be the first to throw in your face you A) never gave him a proper chance to save his marriage B) broke up his marriage Glad to see you are staying away it's the BEST you can do.
Author neverendingsaga Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 I'm sorry but he sounds like the type of guy that if you did end up together and after the honeymoon phase is calmed down and reality sets in, he will be the first to throw in your face you A) never gave him a proper chance to save his marriage B) broke up his marriage Glad to see you are staying away it's the BEST you can do. thanks tomcat. i wish i could always think strongly/clearly about like that. i waver on how i feel about him/ what kind of person he is... i guess b/c i loved him so much & i still do. but im sure i dont want THIS anymore so i just tell myself, stay away, stay away, stay away!
NewSunrise Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 thanks sunrise. its really good to hear a BS point of view & to realise even more that hes been doing this to BOTH of us. only i have a choice, im not married to him, i can walk away. so i am... but it still feels so hard & i wish i could be as strong as you sound. Oh believe me, it wasn't easy. Having been a BS is far worse. It took ONE second for him to cross the line. It took 2 years to discover the A after we got married. It took 30 days to lose 13 pounds and within that month I repeatedly begged my doctor in tears to prescribe antidepressant which if you ever browse through www.marriagebuilders.com many BS resort to but end up with more complications as a result. Thankfully I have a doctor who refused to give it to me and kept reminding me to "tough it out. It's temporary". It took six months or so to try to rebuild our M. And it took a tape recorder and computer spyware to finally destroy the M. That's when I decided I was done. It took one more year costing me nearly $20,000 to get him out of my life. I never changed my cell #. i waver on how i feel about him/ what kind of person he is... i guess b/c i loved him so much & i still do. but im sure i dont want THIS anymore so i just tell myself, stay away, stay away, stay away! Been there done that during the entire NC, Plan A,B; MC, 3 month separation. LOL! Now I think what a waste of flippin time! Ironically, BS and OW/OM are equally hurt and betrayed by this simple hopeful thought of "what we have and could have...." You as the OW are in pain by the thought that you and your MM have such a chemistry together and so much "love" and it could be so much more if only..." As a former BS, "we had a M and have so much more and could have so much more if only..." Bottom line is the "IF". If only he wasn't married. If only he hadn't fooled arround. Both spells betrayal to anyone who is intimately, emotionally and physically involved with a MM/MW of anyone who is "committed". Your MM choice to not divorce his W is as much as a betrayal in his choosing to play you both. If YOU were a priority, your MM would've done it a long time ago. Common denomitor is that they (WS) gladly throw the blame of their unhappy married life on their BS. And then when the OP is starts to exit and place conditions on the A, they revert to childlike tit-for-tat of if you did this, I'd do this. Classic. My XWS did the same exact things to me as he did to his OW as this MM is doing to you...blame, guilt trip. im working on reestablishing my friends who i always dumped in favor of XMM or kept XMM a secret from them so i didnt feel as close to them & they could tell something was up long after i ended the PA. There you go! Simply realizing this part about you and what you did is in itself "redefining" yourself. The A was a very uncomfortable REALITY (it is a reality whether you care to admit it or not; it is what it is) that you kept a "secret" which did NOT allow you to open up. You probably didn't want your friends to think any less of you for having hooked up with a MM. Quite natural. That's why the call it an "affair". As I said in one of my replies, no one is perfect. You will have moments as you have expressed where you beat yourself up for having gone been involved with a MM as much as I have in giving my XWS repeated benefit of the doubts. The are lessons in every mistakes we make. Sometimes, we learn the most important lesson in the most painful way. An affair qualifies as such. I can sense you ARE getting stronger in each of your replies. You are doing the best that you can. And that's all you can ask of yourself.
OWoman Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 im working on my career which was very imp. to me before XMM came along & made it all about him. im working on reestablishing my friends who i always dumped in favor of XMM or kept XMM a secret from them so i didnt feel as close to them & they could tell something was up long after i ended the PA. and im working on working out which always helps my stress. these are things that have NOTHING to do w/ XMM & that does make me feel better about me. NES it's interesting that the things you list as wanting to reclaim are the same things that abused partners are often forced to forego in their abusive relationships at the behest of the abuser - the very things that reinforce self-esteem, confidence and security outside of the R. Perhaps it's putting too fine a point on it to suggest that the secrecy of the A was abusive to your self-esteem but it's certainly great that you're able to flag those areas as having been neglected, and actively setting that to rights and reclaiming who you are and who you want to be.
GPFan Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Ironically, BS and OW/OM are equally hurt and betrayed by this simple hopeful thought of "what we have and could have...." You as the OW are in pain by the thought that you and your MM have such a chemistry together and so much "love" and it could be so much more if only..." As a former BS, "we had a M and have so much more and could have so much more if only..." <snip> As I said in one of my replies, no one is perfect. You will have moments as you have expressed where you beat yourself up for having gone been involved with a MM as much as I have in giving my XWS repeated benefit of the doubts. The are lessons in every mistakes we make. Sometimes, we learn the most important lesson in the most painful way. An affair qualifies as such. AND NES it's interesting that the things you list as wanting to reclaim are the same things that abused partners are often forced to forego in their abusive relationships at the behest of the abuser - the very things that reinforce self-esteem, confidence and security outside of the R. Perhaps it's putting too fine a point on it to suggest that the secrecy of the A was abusive to your self-esteem but it's certainly great that you're able to flag those areas as having been neglected, and actively setting that to rights and reclaiming who you are and who you want to be. Thank you both for sharing your incredible insights with us. The toughest, most depressing and heart-wrenching circumstances are the platform for the BIG LIFE LESSON. If no other outcome, then let it be a wiser you that is sculpted out of trying times.
GPFan Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 I would like to add that I am very impressed with this forum board. Affairs are a sensitive topic and conversations about them tend to get heated. There are a number of discussions ongoing that flow smoothly regardless of odd insensitive remark made here-and-there. The discussion simply flows around it much as water around a boulder. Moderation here isn't heavy which makes this phenomenon even more remarkable. The posters make it what it is. Most of you are doing a fantastic job! I wish to extend kudos to the site and moderators as well. They have created an environment in which civil discourse and learning are encouraged. Good job all around!
pelicanpreacher Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 NES, do you ever worry that something could ever occur in your drama with this "Mama's Boy" that could ever make him express hatred for you?...And if so, how would that affect your feelings towards him?! Bottom line is, do you really want him out of your life and how ruthless are you willing to be to achieve that goal?!
frannie Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 ... but at that time when he was talking about telling his W the truth, he said, 'lets just say hypothetically that my M was kind of bad before you came along but i didnt really realise it untill you did. maybe we werent def. getting D'ed before you. so what? ... i still think about that & wonder WHY he would give me hypos that arent true. ... so NOW he is saying i didnt give him enough or show him enough that im sure i want to be w/ him. i mean how else could i have been... NES it seems very illogical doesn't it, all this 'hypothetical situation' stuff..? But I agree with TC: I'm sorry but he sounds like the type of guy that if you did end up together and after the honeymoon phase is calmed down and reality sets in, he will be the first to throw in your face you A) never gave him a proper chance to save his marriage B) broke up his marriage I see this happening too. And I agree with TC, that the best you can do is what you are doing: walking away and having nothing more to do with him while he's married. He'll only throw it back in your face later, and what will you feel then? You already feel guilty, and he knows that. Common denomitor is that they (WS) gladly throw the blame of their unhappy married life on their BS. And then when the OP is starts to exit and place conditions on the A, they revert to childlike tit-for-tat of if you did this, I'd do this. Classic. My XWS did the same exact things to me as he did to his OW as this MM is doing to you...blame, guilt trip. Yes, it's everyone else's fault but his, right..? You know what else he was asking you the other day, that more or less went along the lines of if he left, how do you know that he's the right one for you, etc. etc. He's just after guarantees from you about how you feel. So what happens down the line when you have lived with him a while and decide that it's not working. You'll get THAT thrown in your face as well. He needs to accept responsibility for his own actions.
Tomcat33 Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 thanks tomcat. i wish i could always think strongly/clearly about like that. i waver on how i feel about him/ what kind of person he is... i guess b/c i loved him so much & i still do. but im sure i dont want THIS anymore so i just tell myself, stay away, stay away, stay away! I know.... it's not easy Neverending!! You know you can't expect to have clarity as things are so you WILL waiver between what you feel is the truth and what your mind plays out. You will gain clarity with distance which is why you should rest assured that you are on the right path. And good for you don't forget to recognize that no matter how hard it gets you did the RIGHT THiNG! It is SO hard to stay away to keep to your convictions which utlimately are there to protect you. I think you can't take for granted actions. One thing that all or most WS have in common is the royal gift of "blahh blaaah blah" with their "blahh blahh" they can move mountains, imaginary ones of course, mountains that reside in our hearts, but in reality their actions is what ultimately moves "actual" mountains. You are being VERY smart in having enough foresight to want to keep your distance, it is the only way you will know for sure what this man really wants. Let him figure it out on his own, let him be the sole reason why he makes the choices that he does so that if you ever DO end up together there is absolutely no way he can associate his decisions back to you. You did what was right and the rest is going to be up to him and how things play out with his W. In my case I did just that I stepped aside and decided on NC and stuck to it like glue, he broke it many times to no response from me ultimately his marriage did not work out, and I can say with full confidence I had absolutely NOTHING to do with his decision to get D'd and NEVER did. But he never made me feel responsible for his problems in the marriage he always made sure to reassure me this was happening to him independantly from what happend to us, but I knew better than to take his word on that I covered all my bases incase he was not being sincere with me. As it turned out they really were on that path before I came along it just so happend I awakened that need to want more since he has been coasting and pretty much in a dead relationship for so long. I was the push that gave him incentive to want out but he had clearly wanted out for a long time.
Tomcat33 Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Yes, it's everyone else's fault but his, right..? EXACTLY!! Frannie summed it up nicely, that is something to really beware of, when he starts to point fingers then it can get pretty dangerous for you because it means not only that he is not taking responsibility for his actions (which could mean that he is twisting things at home to his W in order to keep that door open there as well) he is going to make YOU the enemy if he ever has a change of heart.
NewSunrise Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 NES it seems very illogical doesn't it, all this 'hypothetical situation' stuff..? But I agree with TC: Yes, it's everyone else's fault but his, right..? Yup! You got it! What we often don't realize, if you all want to get "hypothetical" and take As on another level, the process is likened to the "Stockholm Syndrome." MP (married person) meets OP. They fall in love. MP(the hijacker) emotionally hijacks OP by sincerely demonstrating with Academy award performance of their cause to go astray from M. MP convinces OP BS is a terrible partner, parent, financier, shopholic, yada, yada, yada. OP, intrigued by such newness and excitement falls for it and begins to side with MP nevermind there are children and other consequences. They create a grand master plan on how to attack - D way, their get away car and ride off into the sunset. Notice how hijackers are emotionally unstable? Any disruption on their grand plans, you are automatically viewed as the enemy? OK, that might be stretching it a little...done in all good fun.
Author neverendingsaga Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 NES, do you ever worry that something could ever occur in your drama with this "Mama's Boy" that could ever make him express hatred for you?...And if so, how would that affect your feelings towards him?! Bottom line is, do you really want him out of your life and how ruthless are you willing to be to achieve that goal?! im not sure i totaly understand your question. yes i think he could express hatred for me if i messed up his perfect view of himself & other ppls' opinions about him. he really really really cares what ppl think of him & he wants them to think hes a good guy. he can be super suave & cool but then minute i mention how it might look to outsiders if they knew the truth or what if his W or our boss or whatever found out, hes like a scared lil boy. and if i do something that he perceives to be against him (even sometimes accidently, he just TAKES it as something bad im doing against him) he becomes really nasty & vindictive. like 'you better not think you can mess w/ me.' he does that to EVERYONE he doesnt like (& he doesnt like alot of ppl) & everyone who gets on his bad side. i guess including me when he feels threatened of me exposing him or not catering to his every whim. (geez now im talking about him so negatively, how could i have ever loved someone like this?!?!!) all the while he cares about his reputuation & wanting ppl to think hes this great guy, i KNOW hes a fake- its so hard to say b/c i loved him but im starting to see right thru him. what he tells/ shows me is completly diff. then what he tells/ shows everyone else. both sides cant be true, its just impossible. ex. he wants ppl to think hes true to his W/ marriage but he tells me its horrible & there getting D'ed. all the while he never told anyone they were separated when they were living seperatly. so what does he really want ya know. also he wants everyone at work to think hes a good guy but ive HEARD him lie to their face. other ppl at work AND the clients. like hes told a client w/ me right there that they wont be charged for a project im doing, then he tells me they will be, but it will be to a diff. acct they dont look at. !?!?!?!? does he think im stupid & i dont realise he just told them a completely diff. thing then he told me & that BOTH cant be true? he flip flops so much what he tells me versus them w/ me right there, esp. lately now that hes been having me work on more of his stuff b/c he wants me around him in any way possible i guess??, he keeps telling the client 'dont worry, your not being charged for what she does' (b/c really its his work i guess hes supposed to be doing on his own w/out my assistance. but i get paid in part on how much i work & the projects i help w/, so if he doesnt account for my time then i wont get paid as much as if he did, & i wont get credit w/ the company.) So anyway there are only 3 possible scenarios: 1) he is telling the truth to them & he is not going to charge them for my time or give me any credit for my work; 2) he is lying to them & is going to charge them anyway (that would be stupid- its prolly not that) or 3) the most deceptive approach which he even admitted to me about one of the accts, that he is telling them theyre not being billed for my time but actully they are, but to some kind of general acct that they dont scrutinise as much as the specific project file. maybe he does realise im smart enough to figure it out so thats why he told me about the general acct he says they dont look at. but is he going to do that for ALL the clients he keeps having me help w/ recently?? or maybe he doesn't think i will figure him out, i mean up till recently ive believed everything he told me about his W, oh she abuses him & neglects him... everything is wah wah wah, this other person does this to him, and its so horrible there getting D'ed, unless i dont do enough to show him im here for him i guess.... i am just seeing so many diff. sides of him now that im not so ga ga goo goo. why does he think its ok to lie to other ppl in front of me? does he think i have no morals B/C i was involved w/ him? does he look at me as his partner in crime, even against our clients at work? does he know i cant report him to anyone B/C ive been involved in an A w/ him? is he trying to teach me his ways? ive KNOWN for awhile that he totally overcharges ppl & shifts every situation to be favorable to him & get away w/ whatever he wants to do. but why have i not stood up for things sooner & why do i still hesitate to it, now that it is even way more obvious what he does. things are going really bad at work now that ive distanced myself from him. i guess hes doing everything in his power to get me to stay w/ him or near him, & he has a lot of power here. he is totally going over my head & making it so that i have to work on things w/ him and he is taking over things at work that I'M supposed to be doing, like he the right to just take charge of my projects. he keeps screwing things up for me. ppl are mad at me b/c of things HE'S done. why cant i stand up to him more, i should at least say 'i cannot do anymore work for you, im not comfortable w/ the issue of charging it to a diff acct & it seems that youve had me work for you alot more now that we're not talking personally, its TOTALY unnecesary for me to be working on these projects w/ you & it also seems that ever since i have ppl are mad at me b/c your overstepping boundaries & they look at it as me just trying to hide behind you for my mistakes or you doing my dirty work for me. i need to just have my own work under diff. supervisors & handle my issues on my own, you cant keep butting in.' WHY cant i just say that... i guess its b/c like you point out pelicanpreacher, im afraid of the repurcusions. he can play nasty & im just not like that. i just want peace but to try to get it i would cause ww III w/ him. im having a really bad day, work is just going horribly all of a sudden, & it was one thing i thought i could concentrate on & do well in on my own. but it turns out XMM is trying to control me at work too, at least it really feels that way.
Author neverendingsaga Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 I know.... it's not easy Neverending!! You know you can't expect to have clarity as things are so you WILL waiver between what you feel is the truth and what your mind plays out. You will gain clarity with distance which is why you should rest assured that you are on the right path. And good for you don't forget to recognize that no matter how hard it gets you did the RIGHT THiNG! It is SO hard to stay away to keep to your convictions which utlimately are there to protect you. I think you can't take for granted actions. One thing that all or most WS have in common is the royal gift of "blahh blaaah blah" with their "blahh blahh" they can move mountains, imaginary ones of course, mountains that reside in our hearts, but in reality their actions is what ultimately moves "actual" mountains. You are being VERY smart in having enough foresight to want to keep your distance, it is the only way you will know for sure what this man really wants. Let him figure it out on his own, let him be the sole reason why he makes the choices that he does so that if you ever DO end up together there is absolutely no way he can associate his decisions back to you. You did what was right and the rest is going to be up to him and how things play out with his W. In my case I did just that I stepped aside and decided on NC and stuck to it like glue, he broke it many times to no response from me ultimately his marriage did not work out, and I can say with full confidence I had absolutely NOTHING to do with his decision to get D'd and NEVER did. But he never made me feel responsible for his problems in the marriage he always made sure to reassure me this was happening to him independantly from what happend to us, but I knew better than to take his word on that I covered all my bases incase he was not being sincere with me. As it turned out they really were on that path before I came along it just so happend I awakened that need to want more since he has been coasting and pretty much in a dead relationship for so long. I was the push that gave him incentive to want out but he had clearly wanted out for a long time. its weird b/c everything you say reminds me of my XMM. his M was already crappy & headed down a bad road, my coming along just showed him there is really something alot better than his current M, & like your XMM untill recently (when i first started trying to go NC) he always said i had nothing to feel guilty about, that it was all his decision based on there M & had nothing to do w/ me. it was only when push came to shove i guess that the path diverged & he started talking about, what if he was only doing it to be able to be w/ me, would i feel guilty if he just up & left her for me, etc. i dont know if hes trying to purposefuly confuse me but i guess the one thing it shows me is that HEs not sure of how he feels about the matter... even though he swore to me those were only hypotheticals & he knows he is getting D'ed w/ or w/out me... there was enough doubt & confusion there for me to say 'ok then lets test that.'
NewSunrise Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 i am just seeing so many diff. sides of him now that im not so ga ga goo goo. why does he think its ok to lie to other ppl in front of me? does he think i have no morals B/C i was involved w/ him? does he look at me as his partner in crime, even against our clients at work? Better to see his true colors now than later. And yes, selfish people with vindictiveness do think this way. As long as you were a willing party in the A, you are just as a willing conspirator that might incriminate both of you at work. In the end, their thinking mode is they're not going down alone. They'll take someone else along with them. does he know i cant report him to anyone B/C ive been involved in an A w/ him? ive KNOWN for awhile that he totally overcharges ppl & shifts every situation to be favorable to him & get away w/ whatever he wants to do. but why have i not stood up for things sooner & why do i still hesitate to it, now that it is even way more obvious what he does. Your A with this MM has taken on a new level. A legal one. He knows you can. That's the dangerous part. This alone might be a serious consideration to look into what the legal ramifications against "you" for having "inside" knowledge of his overcharging especially if the people above him do not know and whether or not such practices are endorsed by the company. Seriously consider finding another company to work for would be my next step if I were you. Ending the A with your co-worker is one thing. But knowingly engaging in unethical practices your company could be liable for, you ARE an just as guilty as your MM. Think about.
Author neverendingsaga Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 Better to see his true colors now than later. And yes, selfish people with vindictiveness do think this way. As long as you were a willing party in the A, you are just as a willing conspirator that might incriminate both of you at work. In the end, their thinking mode is they're not going down alone. They'll take someone else along with them. Your A with this MM has taken on a new level. A legal one. He knows you can. That's the dangerous part. This alone might be a serious consideration to look into what the legal ramifications against "you" for having "inside" knowledge of his overcharging especially if the people above him do not know and whether or not such practices are endorsed by the company. Seriously consider finding another company to work for would be my next step if I were you. Ending the A with your co-worker is one thing. But knowingly engaging in unethical practices your company could be liable for, you ARE an just as guilty as your MM. Think about. well i had a job interview on mon & it went well. of course alot of ppl are interviewing for that one slot. but they took me on to the next level which means talking to my reference which of course is XMM. i hate that i have to rely on him so much to even get AWAY from him. but he is def. the person ive worked the most for & who knows my work. in fact, looking back, he took control of me & isolated me from the other supervisors. work was going great while we were together, & even while we just talking & not having a total A. but now that ive gone NC things at work are getting really bad for me. he says he'll recommend me highly & i think he will, the one thing thats still there is that he thinks my work is really good & hes trained me so he takes pride in his star pupil being so great... so to put me down to another job when ive already told them he was my trainer would be putting himself down too. so right now im just waiting for his recommendation before doing anything that pisses him off. and that is my dilemma. earlier he asked me if i can help him w/ another project, for the same client he keeps telling hes not charging them for my work on any of these projects but he tells me he will give me credit for my time. i should clarify that ive learned, esp. recently, that his "asking" me if i 'want" to help him on something later turns into a "demand" to do it. b/c when i say no, even if i have a good reason like im busy or my new(er) supervisor needs me, he flips out & tells me every reason he NEEDS me to work for him and how I'M missing out. then he turns it around & blames everything on me, saying he was just asking me to give me this great opportunity & he will have to gives it to someone else at my level who will get the experience instead. & the problem is im NOT too busy right now (obviously, im on LS LOL) & i could really use the work. BUT not at the expense of going along w/ his lies... i mean, i feel like im finally doing something RIGHT for once by completely ending the A & staying in NC, so to feel like im cheating at work would just be undoing all those efforts. i can go drum up work from other ppl & i prolly should b/c things are going so south every time i work on XMM's stuff. so i was just working up the nerve to tell him, maybe even in email which will scare him, that i dont feel comfortable working on projects for that client after ive heard him tell them repeatedly that he wont charge them for my work. BUT i will be opening up the floodgates to his wrath b/c i'll be implicitly questioning his integrity ya know. he hates that, he always goes 'what kind of a person do you think i AM?' if i suggest that anything hes doing is wrong. and i really really need his recommendation, esp. b/c i doubt i'll get the job i applied for b/c of the competition, so i'll need it until i get a new job. i dont know how i put myself in the position on depending on someone so much. this is just the bind i am in due to my own stupid choices & following what i thought were feelings of neverending love for someone i clearly see now is an assh*le. wtf was i thinking.
pelicanpreacher Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 im not sure i totaly understand your question. yes i think he could express hatred for me if i messed up his perfect view of himself & other ppls' opinions about him. he really really really cares what ppl think of him & he wants them to think hes a good guy. he can be super suave & cool but then minute i mention how it might look to outsiders if they knew the truth or what if his W or our boss or whatever found out, hes like a scared lil boy. and if i do something that he perceives to be against him (even sometimes accidently, he just TAKES it as something bad im doing against him) he becomes really nasty & vindictive. like 'you better not think you can mess w/ me.' he does that to EVERYONE he doesnt like (& he doesnt like alot of ppl) & everyone who gets on his bad side. i guess including me when he feels threatened of me exposing him or not catering to his every whim. (geez now im talking about him so negatively, how could i have ever loved someone like this?!?!!) all the while he cares about his reputuation & wanting ppl to think hes this great guy, i KNOW hes a fake- its so hard to say b/c i loved him but im starting to see right thru him. what he tells/ shows me is completly diff. then what he tells/ shows everyone else. both sides cant be true, its just impossible. ex. he wants ppl to think hes true to his W/ marriage but he tells me its horrible & there getting D'ed. all the while he never told anyone they were separated when they were living seperatly. so what does he really want ya know. also he wants everyone at work to think hes a good guy but ive HEARD him lie to their face. other ppl at work AND the clients. like hes told a client w/ me right there that they wont be charged for a project im doing, then he tells me they will be, but it will be to a diff. acct they dont look at. !?!?!?!? does he think im stupid & i dont realise he just told them a completely diff. thing then he told me & that BOTH cant be true? he flip flops so much what he tells me versus them w/ me right there, esp. lately now that hes been having me work on more of his stuff b/c he wants me around him in any way possible i guess??, he keeps telling the client 'dont worry, your not being charged for what she does' (b/c really its his work i guess hes supposed to be doing on his own w/out my assistance. but i get paid in part on how much i work & the projects i help w/, so if he doesnt account for my time then i wont get paid as much as if he did, & i wont get credit w/ the company.) So anyway there are only 3 possible scenarios: 1) he is telling the truth to them & he is not going to charge them for my time or give me any credit for my work; 2) he is lying to them & is going to charge them anyway (that would be stupid- its prolly not that) or 3) the most deceptive approach which he even admitted to me about one of the accts, that he is telling them theyre not being billed for my time but actully they are, but to some kind of general acct that they dont scrutinise as much as the specific project file. maybe he does realise im smart enough to figure it out so thats why he told me about the general acct he says they dont look at. but is he going to do that for ALL the clients he keeps having me help w/ recently?? or maybe he doesn't think i will figure him out, i mean up till recently ive believed everything he told me about his W, oh she abuses him & neglects him... everything is wah wah wah, this other person does this to him, and its so horrible there getting D'ed, unless i dont do enough to show him im here for him i guess.... i am just seeing so many diff. sides of him now that im not so ga ga goo goo. why does he think its ok to lie to other ppl in front of me? does he think i have no morals B/C i was involved w/ him? does he look at me as his partner in crime, even against our clients at work? does he know i cant report him to anyone B/C ive been involved in an A w/ him? is he trying to teach me his ways? ive KNOWN for awhile that he totally overcharges ppl & shifts every situation to be favorable to him & get away w/ whatever he wants to do. but why have i not stood up for things sooner & why do i still hesitate to it, now that it is even way more obvious what he does. things are going really bad at work now that ive distanced myself from him. i guess hes doing everything in his power to get me to stay w/ him or near him, & he has a lot of power here. he is totally going over my head & making it so that i have to work on things w/ him and he is taking over things at work that I'M supposed to be doing, like he the right to just take charge of my projects. he keeps screwing things up for me. ppl are mad at me b/c of things HE'S done. why cant i stand up to him more, i should at least say 'i cannot do anymore work for you, im not comfortable w/ the issue of charging it to a diff acct & it seems that youve had me work for you alot more now that we're not talking personally, its TOTALY unnecesary for me to be working on these projects w/ you & it also seems that ever since i have ppl are mad at me b/c your overstepping boundaries & they look at it as me just trying to hide behind you for my mistakes or you doing my dirty work for me. i need to just have my own work under diff. supervisors & handle my issues on my own, you cant keep butting in.' WHY cant i just say that... i guess its b/c like you point out pelicanpreacher, im afraid of the repurcusions. he can play nasty & im just not like that. i just want peace but to try to get it i would cause ww III w/ him. im having a really bad day, work is just going horribly all of a sudden, & it was one thing i thought i could concentrate on & do well in on my own. but it turns out XMM is trying to control me at work too, at least it really feels that way. You've addressed every fear and nagging suspicion I've had about this guy in your current post. When you revealed instances earlier regarding him going behind your back to plant falsehoods about you or to you about others in the workplace I had the feeling that he was also hooking you by other questionable means to establish a lateral means of maintaining control over you. The unethical and illegal liabilities he's exposed you to in his creative accounting shenanigans, as well as his growing manipulation of your work time, has put you in a very dicey position when it comes to maneuvering under his thumb. If he's ever exposed on his nefarious activities the very public nature of your affair and the implications of its closeness could entangle you in his entire scope of deceptive dealings whether you have direct knowledge and involvement or not! (Sort of like guilt by association) This guy plays dirty and I would advise that you document everything he's doing to clients, to you, and to other employees that he may be sabotaging. You need to start being more protective of your work environment and begin establishing inter-personal working relationships with everyone he's ever isolated you from.... even if he maintains primary control over your project assignments. I'd also seek legal council to cover your @ss against his shady backroom arrangements and secure leverage against him with whatever means you have at hand if you discover that he's responsible for torpedoing your work projects or hampering efforts to seek gainfull employment elsewhere. When the worm turns you can show him that you can hurt him as badly as he can hurt you...he's demonstrated fear in the past of exposure to his upper echelon so information becomes your friend! You once posted that if this guy ever messed with your job then all bets are off. Well, kiddo, get your boxing gloves out because you may be pushed into coming out swinging whether you like it or not!
Author neverendingsaga Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 This guy plays dirty and I would advise that you document everything he's doing to clients, to you, and to other employees that he may be sabotaging. You need to start being more protective of your work environment and begin establishing inter-personal working relationships with everyone he's ever isolated you from.... even if he maintains primary control over your project assignments. i like your advice about re-establishing relationships. that will really help b/c right now i feel so isolated, like it's still me & him against the world but i no longer want it to be that way. i dont know about documenting everything he does to clients... i would still feel like i was playing a part in it. i just want to not work for him unless he is charging them for my work honestly. if not then i just want to tell him no. im really afraid of his response though.
twice_shy Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 this is really distressing me, i really want to be left alone, someone tell me how to best achieve this goal- 'delete' button or strong response or the response i drafted or what? Reply with a simple "F##K OFF!!" and nothing more. That should do the trick. Then block his email.
Author neverendingsaga Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 Reply with a simple "F##K OFF!!" and nothing more. That should do the trick. Then block his email. i cant block him when he writes to me on work email. i AM at that point where i want to say F##K OFF though.
NewSunrise Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Agree w/Pelican. Reestablish relationships with a trusting co-worker. Now's also a good time to start trusting your closest friends outside of work and let them in for support. An apology for putting them behind your XMM would break the ice just so you won't feel isolated. If they are "true" friends in bad and good times, they be there for you no matter what and they'll understand. Look into your HR policies on Codes of Ethics. Most major corps have them availalable online. An by all means, seek legal council. Unless your XMM is a CEO, there is always someone managing a "supervisor". But don't disclose what you know. Your safest exit is to NOT thow threats. He's got this game down. But you need to be one step ahead and play his game smarter. Hell, my XWS thought I was dumb when it came to computers. Just because I asked him to download programs didn't mean I was stupid. It just meant I didn't have "time" to do it. Telling this dude to fkuc off will only fuel his anger and increase control over you. Instead, tell him you can't deal with his indecisiveness with his M and you need to distance yourself from him in order to function coinciding your desire for a NC. You'll have to manipulate this situation to your advantage even if it means puking all over yourself for saying it to him "lovingly". Make him keep thinking that you still hope for the two of you to ride off into the sunset. (Are you starting to gag?) Have you received any high remarks from the XMM while under him? If so, did you submit them along with your resume? If not, keep faking it with him until you secure a new position. Maybe you won't have to if you've graduated to the next level. Like I said, restore your relationships with friends. They may know some legal expert and offer some guidance on how to best approach your situation. Remember you said you wish you could be as strong? You're doing it.
NewSunrise Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Look into "whistle blower" protection for employees. This will probably your only major defense in protecting yourself, "partially". I said partially because you knowingly signed off on overcharging clients.
Author neverendingsaga Posted June 5, 2008 Author Posted June 5, 2008 Look into "whistle blower" protection for employees. This will probably your only major defense in protecting yourself, "partially". I said partially because you knowingly signed off on overcharging clients. thx for the advice newsunrise. just wanted to say that he had me start working on these projects for him a week or two ago... not so ironically when i went back into NC & totally ignored all his attempts to contact me personally. so this is all just happening & i started to put two & two together. it's not like he told me straight out 'i am telling them im not charging for your work but i am, so bill it to this secret acct.' no it happened like this, sorry for my long drawn-out boring story, but to get the facts straight. he told me he needed my help on these projects that he inherited from someone else who recently left the company. he told me to do all this background work on it. he told me 'the client said we could charge them for transitioning the project from the guy who left [let's call him bob] to me.' he said he is charging that to there general acct. ok. then we go to a meeting w/ the client & ive done all this background research, i know EVERYTHING about there project, on the way over there he says 'there going to find out im a fraud, im nervous, they think i know everything bob knows about this kind of project & soon there going to find out i dont know anything about that stuff.' i couldnt really tell if he was kidding or not. i think he feels free to say weird vulnerable ***** like that to me so i dont think he was kidding but who would seriously say that?!?! so at the meeting i know everything about this file & this client & this project & this type of work b/c ive spent a lot of time researching it like XMM said to. its pretty funny b/c hes super senior & im pretty new but i was answering all there questions & he kept looking to me. at this meeting he told them dont worry, i was just there to be brought up to speed & they wouldnt be charged for my work. well im super mad, b/c ive spent all this time learning all this stuff he was supposed to know & he doesnt, & im the one answering all there ?s, yet he says im not going to be given credit for my time & work! so i ask him about that later, i say, i didnt know i was doing this just for training. and he says, your not, i told you they said i could charge to get up to speed on bob's old projects. see, its not like he comes out & says 'do this work & lets secretly charge the client.' i was trying to give a shorter version of what i figured out was happening. i would have said no if hed said that. but instead of has me do all this work & then says its ok to charge it, but he mixes up the facts. i realised exactly what hes doing: he doesnt want them to know that he didnt know anything about that type of work. he prolly got that type of work (which is more in the arena of my type of work- a reason to have me work under him) by telling them he DOES that kind of work, he knows it & hes used to it etc like 'bob'. just replace bob w/ him. but give him credit for 'catching up to speed' on bobs projects w/ them. in fact he knew little to nothing about that kind of work so he had ME learn it all. and charge it to this acct that they think is for there general work but its really for me learning how to do the work hes supposed to do & then coming along. and he told me to put down all my time for the meeting we had w/ them for that specific project (where he said they wouldnt be charged for me being there) in the general acct under the description of helping to transition bob's cases. so this is where i become complicit if i follow his instructions. if he just told me that id be like ok but its the circumstances of me figuring out his plan & that by telling me to write it under the general acct & telling them he wasnt charging them for me being there... he actually is. i guess if i hadnt figured it out i would have just been like, ok & followed his instructions. does he think im stupid??!! b/c i have figured out that he is telling them they wont be charged for me being at the meetings & me doing substantial background research on the case (b/c they only want him to do that & they dont know he doesnt know what hes talking about so i have to do all this EXTRA background research & brief him on it), & i guess they think im just in training or we're just doing this to be nice to them and he is catching me up to speed so i can later do the work on the case myself. but this is not the case. i hope this is making some sense it is hard to explain. never mind the fact that i dont want to give out too much info. about the type of job we work in. the facts are just confusing if you dont work here but just trust me that i figured out he is scamming them, or me, or maybe both. so i have to not write it down and i lose all my time, i mean lots & lots of time, which i DIDNT do w/ the intention of secretly mischarging them. it happened again where i was in his office & he said keep billing everything for them to general instead of the specific projects, & as he was on the phone w/ one of the clients we were meeting about he said 'i had NES from our office look into this matter, and dont worry, your not being charged for her time.' (geez what does he & the clients think i am, a piece of poop lowly slave thats going to go around doing all this FREE stuff???) that was just yesterday so now i face writing the time down KNOWING hes charging them unethically, or losing all my time, or standing up to him & saying im not going to charge it & im not going to be doing any more of that work w/ him. it is a big pickle. i said all this to clarify that i havent been going along w/ him, i just figured out what he is doing & im at the crossroads where i can still get myself out but it will mean really really pissing him off. i just gave him as a reference to the new job i applied for but they havent called him yet. plus i dont think i will get that job b/c its very competitive, i have to apply for others & i dont know what i'll do w/out him as a reference. so i just dont know a good way out of this at this point. re: company policies. well we are not a big company, very independly organized & run, so there are no online HR policies or whistleblowing policies. but i will see what i can find, im sure theres SOME kind of written policies.
NewSunrise Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 i guess if i hadnt figured it out i would have just been like, ok & followed his instructions. does he think im stupid??!! If it comes to court, this is exactly what the attorneys for the company will be asking you. I smell embezzlement. A serious crime. With your handwriting on project contracts charged to general account at his instructions and YOU knowing full well of gross negligence and misrepresentation, you ARE an "accessory" to committing fraud. Exactly what is your "job description?" Is there a written documentation of your job description at time of first hire? If so, how does it differentiate your authorization versus his when submitting bills? Must the bills be authorized by him? Or do you have complete authorization to submit charges with his blessings? If it's the latter, consider it a serious matter. How are the charges appropriated? What is his portion? How is he paid based on percentages on those charges? Have you received "under" the table kickbacks? If you have received kickbacks in the form of "bonus" not specified as part of your salary or employment contract, this will compound your legal problems. This xhole (my nickname for XWS) could say, he's given you kickbacks in the form of cash, gifts. If so, item 6 below will be done. You already know of his unethical business practice. The questions in court (if it gets this far) will be Your relationship/affiliation with himLength of your relationshipLength of your knowledge of his unethical/legal practiceHave you reported it to anyone, to his superiors? if the answer is no, why not?Your employment contract (if any) will be reviewed. If none, you can obtain copies from HR. They are required by law to allow to review your file. Do so when the xhole is not around.Your financial records will be subponead to determine if you have received any income other than your salary to show embezzlement.Start gathering documents. If you can without arousing suspicion stay after hours and start pressing the "copy" button on the company copy machine. Once you've done the gathering, is there someone you can trust who is not in cohoots with the xhole? If so, develop a connection. You need to establish a link with someone. Legally, unless you've got a lawyer friend who will do pro bono or free, this might be your option until you need one. But don't discount calling a corporate lawyer who specializes in whistle blower law. Perhaps, after this, there's a reason you had to hook with him. Chances are he's done this before with another OW within the company and has been able to get away with it. Maybe this time, you might just be the Erin Brokevich(? you know the Julia Roberts character) to put this guy away. Anyone on LS know any corporate lawyer willing to give advice? Toss em this way. Hang in there. You're strength is being tested.
NewSunrise Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 Just in case it gets lost in the shuffling of ongoing new topics on LS, make copies of your posts from page one until this saga ends. If it comes to trial, what you have shown so far with us has been your genuine honesty, fear of repurcussions from the xhole, and your discovery of uncovering his unethical business practice. At least, the company attorneys will know the chronological process of your dilemma.
pelicanpreacher Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 Okay Nes, here's the deal. You are engaging in the unethical practice of off-sheet contracting and accounting. Executives working for organizations like Enron, Tyco, and Adelphi Cable were busted and found guilty on charges ranging from investor fraud, embezzelment, and racketeering doing this and are now doing hard time. Typically, slick organizations will use this type of "creative accounting" to hide off-contract charges levied against clients or underdisclose losses and operational costs from shareholders in order to buoy their reported P/E ratios and gain a better credit rating from Standard & Poors or a better stock rating from Goldman/Sachs. I don't know how your organization works but the scheme I believe your MM is employing is to maximize HIS exclusively represented fees on the official project contract while forcing others involved with the project to "backdoor" their fees against clients via off-contract accounting. The problem arises when organizations you do business with audit their books and discover they have been defrauded through double billing of these undisclosed fees. Remember, your clients are only liable for those costs and fees explicitly disclosed in the official contract. Your MM has kept "clean hands" in this scam by directing you and whomever else was involved with the projects he oversees to log their fees to be back-charged against clients in a slush fund type of account that bears little scrutiny without leaving a paper trail tying himself to the activity. If an investigation ensues it is typically only be those named individuals complicit in entering charges within those ledgers that are fired or prosecuted unless it can be shown that management failed in its due dilligence to monitor this activity or was actively involved in a manner deemed criminal or unethical which thus may widen the scope of culpability for these acts to the ranking executive(s) of the project. You need to get this MM on tape actually dictating orders to you or other underlings to engage in this deceit if you don't already have email correspondence to the same effect so that you are better protected should the sh*t hit the fan! (i.e...You were given a direct order and followed the instructions of a superior) I would then take my evidence to HR to inform them of your uncertainty with MM's methods and innocently ask for a clarification of the rules on this matter (play dumb). This would be nice leverage to force him to comply with established corporate rules and regulations regarding how and who's fees are disclosed on official client contracts in the future.
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