XMM emailed me at work. my response should be?

[neverendingsaga]

Loving a doting only goes so far, I guess. They all seem to turn into creeps at one point or another.

 

 

your so right. ive been thinking that its like, they have to woo us overtime to make us overlook the fact that they happen to be M'ed. they have to make us feel so special & unique & loved, and for us to feel like 'this is true love, it is totally worth whatever hurt & destruction we might face.' and sometimes maybe they do think its true love too... i think mine did but i began to see he had an F'ed-up definition of love. it was more about self love and love of a fantasy. but there has to be something remarkable there to keep us on a string or else we would be like 'wtf, i dont wanna be w/ a loser who cheats on his wife.'

 

but they can only keep that up so long & they know that. eventually if we have any intelligence or self esteem left we're gonna say, ummmm buddy, your still M'ed & i dont like that & there doesnt seem to be much i can do to change it, so im gonna go on my merry way now but thanks for the good times & great feelings. (ha ha of course im being a lil sarcastic here but you get the drift.) then theyre like OMG when did she wise up like this? (my XMM actually asked me at one point, when i was telling him that what he was doing wasnt fair to me OR his W, so i didnt want to continue participating in something unfair to her & me: 'when did you become so smart & figure all of this out?' i was like wtf, when did you NOT think i was smart & how long have you been using that assumption against me? '). they freak out b/c the one thing that always worked- sweetness & wooing us- isnt seeming to work anymore and they have absolutely nothing left to offer us. that is all there ever was when i really think about it. sweet words, him telling me compliments & that i was the love of his life, doting affection (when it was convenent for him & i wasnt making a fuss about him not being D'ed yet) and incredible sex. i cant believe i fell for that b/c i want a real relationship, not something in sugary fairytale land where the minute i try to use my own mind or decide whats best for me, he morphs into some 5-year-old brat.

 

argh at least ive figured this out now and i will NEVER fall for that ***** again. i want substance or nothing.

[neverendingsaga]

Yep, exactly!

 

I only offer this as I do head up an HR dept for a fairly large company. I am honest enough to tell that the HR dept is there for the well being of the company first, employees second. There should be some concern on whom is expendable and quite frankly most likely both of you (unless he is an owner and in that case, file with the EEOC, figure out a number you are going to settle at and move on).

 

Again, does your company have any policies about dating? If not then outside of the power inbalance you guys have it isn't necc something the company can or will do anything about. But once it does start showing a detrimental effect to the company by your work performance, etc than the company will do what it can to fix the problem. If HR is already aware then that has already started happening. I would assume, though, that since they are aware there is either 1, not an issue with the dating, or 2 you have an ineffective HR dept that either doesn't have the power/backing it should by higher ups or you have ineffective people in that dept. That is quite common in HR, we routinely have our hands tied.

 

But your best defense against your MM, the company, etc is to document, document, document. Save all emails, letter, etc so you can produce them at a latter date. Keep a journal of dates and times of meetings, etc so if you need them you have them.

 

And realize that you need to decide now, that any further involvement with your MM means you understand the risk of losing your job.

 

I'm not saying it will happen but it is a possibility that you should be prepared for especially since he is behaving in this seemingly reckless and less than mature way. Cover yourself and let him hang himself if he needs to. Life is a chess game and it isn't over till you lose your queen.

 

thanks for the tips. our HR policy isnt nearly as organized/ powerful as yours seems to be. really it is just one person we can go talk to if we feel weve been sexually harassed or something. im not quite sure of the policies. there are def. no policies against dating & a lot of co-workers date here. as ive said a lot of them have had or are currently having As as well.

 

after i orig. broke off the A i went to the main boss & asked to be put under someone else's supervision. (yes XMM was directly over me & i knew there was no way that was going to continue to work b/c he was using work as a way to see me & then trying to talk about personal stuff- kind of like the powerbar thing from yesterday but in overdrive. so now he is not directly over me but he does have decision making powers & i do still have to do some work thats under his supervision, so i guess hes more like indirectly over me now but i have a new direct supervisor.) i didnt tell the main boss WHY i needed this change but im sure he got the drift, in fact when a bunch of the new people were out to dinner he started talking about other ppl in the company who have had As & came to him & told them about it- like they are leaving their W for their secretary or whatever, & he even told us that the way he looks at it is that what we do personally is our own business & he doesnt care & doesnt want to hear about it, as long as it doesnt affect work. i feel like he was talking about all of that around all of us just b/c I was there (this was after he helped me switch direct supervisors) & he was trying to give me a message to work this out & create any drama.

 

so i dont think they would be happy about me coming to them unless it was a serious issue. XMM always tells me to shift delete the emails right away or else they will backed up on a tape by 6PM. he is friends w/ the IT guy so he knows this stuff i guess. at first i did but then i started to get pissed, b/c he would send me an email like 'i cant wait to see you' then a follow up email saying 'please remember to s/d' and i was like, what am i, your huge dirty secret that you want to talk sweet to as long as no one else could possibly find out your talking sweet to me??!?! ewww i feel so gross when i think of that. so i started saving his stupid emails b/c i realised he was only telling me to s/d them so HE wouldnt get in trouble. a lot of this was from when he was directly over me & my work. he would even use work as a reason to see me, like he took me on a trip the company paid for. and he was always taking me places when we were supposed to be at work & telling me not to worry about it, no one would notice we were gone. so i have some pretty incriminating stuff i COULD use against him if he wanted to play nasty. now i dont WANT to get him in trouble, i just want him to leave me alone. but if it comes to it i KNOW i would not be the one they were mad at it (but yes i never should have gotten myself involved w/ him & stayed involved w/ him all along so i know they wouldnt be too happy w/ me either).

 

so anyway i do have a paper trail on him B/C id either forward his emails to my personal email acct & then s/d them, or sometimes just b/c i was pissed i would save his emails as well as the ones right after them telling me to s/d them. again he is friends w/ the computer guy so i dont think hes worried about HIM seeing our emails or giving them to the firm but who knows what goes on, i dunno. i am pretty ignorant when it comes to HR issues so i apprecate your taking the time to explain it to me. except it really doesnt seem to be like that here, we dont have policies & an HR 'dept' and stuff. but maybe there is unofficial stuff i dont know about. thx again.

[neverendingsaga]

Good post, O&C. This is the point I was attempting to make as well.

 

If they already suspect something, you're not going to make anything worse by going to them. If you go to them, and can clearly DEMONSTRATE to them with emails and such that YOU are attempting to maintain a work environment and he is not...then they have to take action AGAINST HIM.

 

If you don't do anything, the odds are higher that they'll take action...against BOTH of you.

 

If you've clearly spelled this out to him already (in writing that you can use as documentation later)...and he continues to pursue you...HE will be the one at fault. Its a CYA thing at this point for you.

 

Not to mention...if you truly do want this to end, its likely the only to MAKE it end.

 

At the end of the day, the choice is yours. But give some thought to what O&C has said, along with my suggestions. You need to decide what you want, get a plan to get what you want...and then work your plan to make it happen.

 

owl i do have a plan which is to ignore him & if he continues to harass me at work either by email or by showing up unnecessarily at my office & putting me on the spot by talking about personal things in a professional setting, then i WILL warn him about going to HR & i am pretty darn sure that will stop him b/c he KNOWS i have stuff on him. if he is THAT stupid & he doesnt stop then i will follow through. but it hasnt got to that point yet & my hope is that it wont.

 

thanks for your help.

[bentnotbroken]

Block him! Let him contact you all you want. It is totally pointless to react everytime he contacts you to tell him NOT to contact you. Actions speak louder than words so just IGNORE him. Trust me, he WILL see that you aren't falling for his tricks by saying stupid things to you through texts, emails and IM's.

 

 

 

 

Indeed block him. He knows he can guilt you into responding. It is time you step up protecting you.

[jj2007]

I'm coming into this thread way too late to try to offer any advice and other posters have been spot on with their advice. I just want to tell you that I have been following your story and I think you are stronger than you realize and very smart! Hang in there! You are doing the right thing! Hopefully MM will eventually get the hint through his thick skull and he will leave you alone!

 

I know that somewhere inside you do love him and the person he portrayed himself to be. I know you are hurting but over time the pain will lessen and you will eventually heal from this. Remember, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

He does not deserve you or any of your time! Please stay strong and put yourself first! You deserve to be happy and I wish you the very best!

 

(((NES)))

[Order & Chaos]

Okay, first off, do you guys have an employee handbook that you signed off on when you were first hired? Do you have any of your policies in writing?

 

Regardless, sexual harassment does not have be to stated by the employer to be harassment. There are two forms of sexual harassment, hostile work enviroment and quid pro quo. The first is pretty self explanatory, the second means this for that. A date for a promotion, a kiss for a pay raise, a hug for a good performance review.

 

If your MM has ANY oversight over what you do then you definitely have a possible issue, definitely a breeding ground, for quid pro quo. I highly recc you check out the EEOC website as well as www.shrm.org for more information. Your company needs to be aware of their liability before a lawsuit, or worse a class action suit, is filed against them. Most employers don't realize what a ticking clock that actually is.

 

I can say that mine was very similar a few years back. We have grown from 200 odd employees to well over 700 in the last two years. This has brought it own host of issues and thusly a much more powerful HR dept as well a Legal dept.

[NewSunrise]

Ohhh NES. This chapter has left me speechless.

 

You've gotten so much great advice esp from Owl and O&C regarding all the back and forth emails.

 

It doesn't matter if you've got a pile of paper trails against him, the fact that YOU are part of the "willing" party who also used COMPANY time to nurture your affair is just cause to get rid of the both of you. IF the company values him in his supervisory capacity which his performance level remain unchanged or rose and yours unchanged, you will most likely be let go.

 

Even IF affairs are rampant within your company, if YOURS have raised more eyebrows than others, YOU and your MM may become the company's poster children of what they do with adultery in the work place.

 

YOU need to decide if he's worth the risk of losing your job. If he is, then keep using company emails on company time, keep extending your lunch break on company time or whatever it is that you two shouldn't be doing on company time.

 

If he's not worth the risk, then YOU DECIDE once and for all that it all has to stop. HOW? IGNORE

 

1. IGNORE his emails. Do not reply. Forward your emails to your personal email for safe keeping.

2. IGNORE his presence when he walks into your office. Treat him like your supervisor not your lover whom you are having a fight with. Keep it professional even if you want to grab your scissors off your dest and aim at his balls.

 

If he makes personal comments, IGNORE. Look at him and just do not response and say, "Unless this is work related, the door is right behind you, use it".

 

Your MM is narcisstic as my XWS was. Your MM knows exactly which button to push. He's testing you and yes it's all a game to him. His objective? To make your job as uncomfortable to the point of you leaving and looking for another job. That is his goal. He's got a safety net in this company. You don't. He's in management. You're not. As long as he brings the company the bottom line, (money) you'll be out of a job first.

 

By all accounts, he has no intention of divorcing his wife for you. It's all a game as much as it was a game to reel you in into an A. You helped boost his ego. As long as he knows how easy it is while M, it will feed off onto his next OW.

 

So, DECIDE. Is he really worth it?

 

As for you, you are not a failure. Don't beat yourself up for having made a bad choice. We all make bad choices. We're allowed. We're hums. That's part of learning. To date, 20/20 hindsight, I shouldn't have married my XWS. Like you, we genuinely fell in love with the right reasons. Just not with the right person. But because of my "bad" choice, I've learned the meaning of true love and that's exactly what I'm getting from my best friend who is now my BF.

 

So look on the bright side. You're not married to this narcissist. That's a blessing in itself. Imgagine if you were his W? Put yourself in his W's position. Her battle is greater than yours.

[White Flower]

For those of you who are familiar w/ my story. i am at work & XMM is too & i just got an email from him on our work email & it says:

 

'Getting blown off is very upsetting. I would never do that to you.'

 

WTF?! im not even sure what hes talking about. i guess not responding to his last email (which didnt even ASK me anything, it just said 'i had some questions i wanted to ask you but i guess i cant now that you say no contact no matter what.') why cant he just leave me alone.

 

i was going to respond with:

 

'I asked for no contact until you're not married anymore or you have decided for sure that you want to acknowledge me in your life. That is different than blowing you off. I don't appreciate you trying to make me feel guilty for something that I know is best for me. Please do not contact me again.'

 

but then i realised that is responding to his attempt to break NC. (& he will prolly yell at me for writing him on work email like he did last time i responded to HIS work email!! i can never do anyting right when it comes to him!!) i dont want him to keep sending me annoying emails or worse yet, come down here to try to talk to me in person. i want to make it CLEAR that i want NC & why. i feel ive already done that but i guess not if he is still emailing me.

 

im so sorry for my dependence on this board but i want to make sure im doing the right thing, i am so tired of screwing up & feeling like ***** afterwards. someone tell me what to do, do i just delete it & be prepared for him bugging me more about 'blowing him off'?? or do i just respond & say what i was going to say, or just say 'i said no contact & i meant it' or what???

 

 

this is really distressing me, i really want to be left alone, someone tell me how to best achieve this goal- 'delete' button or strong response or the response i drafted or what?

Sweetie, do not apologize for your dependence on this board. That is what we are here for.

 

Boy of boy! He sends you an email to which you are not allowed to respond, but gets upset if you do! Hmm. He DOES sound narcissistic.

 

I would say what you were going to say: 'NC until you are ready to be with me.'

 

Of course, if that is really what you want, NES. Good luck.

[neverendingsaga]

YOU need to decide if he's worth the risk of losing your job. If he is, then keep using company emails on company time, keep extending your lunch break on company time or whatever it is that you two shouldn't be doing on company time.

 

If he's not worth the risk, then YOU DECIDE once and for all that it all has to stop. HOW? IGNORE

 

1. IGNORE his emails. Do not reply. Forward your emails to your personal email for safe keeping.

 

ive already decided & written in here that i am ignoring his emails & not writing him back. no worries there. i have not & will def. NOT email him back. the last email i sent him said 'do not contact me again, this will be my last personal email to you' & i have stuck to that & will continue to stick to that.

 

2. IGNORE his presence when he walks into your office. Treat him like your supervisor not your lover whom you are having a fight with. Keep it professional even if you want to grab your scissors off your dest and aim at his balls.

 

If he makes personal comments, IGNORE. Look at him and just do not response and say, "Unless this is work related, the door is right behind you, use it".

 

yeah ive been doing that in my own way. i mean im not the type of person to say 'use the door thats right behind you' but he knows me & i am def. stern with him and cut him off when he tries to talk to me about personal things at work. i ignore him & i dont respond to his personal comments at all. and i told him not to touch my door which is VERY bold for me. he got the hint & he wasnt back today. if he does come back i will keep it up. so again no worries there.

 

Your MM is narcisstic as my XWS was. Your MM knows exactly which button to push. He's testing you and yes it's all a game to him. His objective? To make your job as uncomfortable to the point of you leaving and looking for another job. That is his goal. He's got a safety net in this company. You don't. He's in management. You're not. As long as he brings the company the bottom line, (money) you'll be out of a job first.

 

By all accounts, he has no intention of divorcing his wife for you. It's all a game as much as it was a game to reel you in into an A. You helped boost his ego. As long as he knows how easy it is while M, it will feed off onto his next OW.

 

So, DECIDE. Is he really worth it?

 

i get it, hes not into me except as an ego boost. no worries i have def. decided he is NOT worth it & im proceeding accordingly. im not sure what in my post makes you think ive havent decided that, but i have.

 

 

As for you, you are not a failure. Don't beat yourself up for having made a bad choice. We all make bad choices. We're allowed. We're hums. That's part of learning. To date, 20/20 hindsight, I shouldn't have married my XWS. Like you, we genuinely fell in love with the right reasons. Just not with the right person. But because of my "bad" choice, I've learned the meaning of true love and that's exactly what I'm getting from my best friend who is now my BF.

 

So look on the bright side. You're not married to this narcissist. That's a blessing in itself. Imgagine if you were his W? Put yourself in his W's position. Her battle is greater than yours.

 

yeah im glad im not his W. im glad i can just get over him & move on despite my pain. its nowhere near to the pain of being M'ed to him for a long time, im sure. thanks for the advice & help.

[neverendingsaga]

I'm coming into this thread way too late to try to offer any advice and other posters have been spot on with their advice. I just want to tell you that I have been following your story and I think you are stronger than you realize and very smart! Hang in there! You are doing the right thing! Hopefully MM will eventually get the hint through his thick skull and he will leave you alone!

 

I know that somewhere inside you do love him and the person he portrayed himself to be. I know you are hurting but over time the pain will lessen and you will eventually heal from this. Remember, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

He does not deserve you or any of your time! Please stay strong and put yourself first! You deserve to be happy and I wish you the very best!

 

(((NES)))

 

wow thanks jj. you may think you are too late to contribute but thats no true at all. your post really inspired me & made me smile which is rare lately. i feel like you know me, although of course i know you dont, & you are saying what i would say to myself if i didnt feel so down in the dumps. really thank you so much, i am going to reread your post when im feeling down.

[neverendingsaga]

Sweetie, do not apologize for your dependence on this board. That is what we are here for.

 

Boy of boy! He sends you an email to which you are not allowed to respond, but gets upset if you do! Hmm. He DOES sound narcissistic.

 

I would say what you were going to say: 'NC until you are ready to be with me.'

Of course, if that is really what you want, NES. Good luck.

 

thanks whiteflower. thats what i dont get- why does he act like t everything i do which is what he WANTS is so right & everything i do which is what he DOESNT want is so wrong. then everything he does is oh so right no matter what... untill he apologizes for his overly strong emotions. it is just such a mind F & im tired of trying to understand it.

 

thanks so much for the encouragement. i read some of your posts & i saw that you recently broke up w/ an XMM also. how did he take it? does he try to break NC?

[White Flower]

strangely i feel guilty, like by saying 'get D'ed or you cant talk to me', im kind of forcing him to get D'ed. i thought, what if his wife saw the email, she would totally take it as me trying to force his hand. is that a weird thought?! i mean i felt guilty about his wife which is one of the many reasons i knew i needed to go NC. but now i feel even more guilty, which i think makes no sense. i guess i just have to admit that i DO want him to get D'ed, obviously, or else we cant be together. but i still want him to do it on his own & not b/c of me. maybe it is just all too complicated & there is no way to feel like it has nothing to do w/ me, b/c it does have to do w/ me & i just have to accept that fact (if he even does get D'ed, who knows)...

If you are right for each other and if he knows this then it has nothing to do with his W because that would mean he is not right for her. It would be easy for some to blame you because they defend marriage on the merits of marriage alone and forget to consider whether two people are meant to be. Don't be confused by this.

 

I'm wondering if he's just too narcissistic and controlling for you. Maybe deep down your regret is tied to the idea that you are demanding a divorce only to end up with someone who is not right for you?

 

It sounds as though you are discovering your self-worth. You know you deserve someone wonderful all to yourself AND that you deserve someone who is not going to control you or take advantage of you.

 

Most of the OWs here know beyond a shadow of a doubt who they want to end up with. But your guy is a doozie!

[neverendingsaga]

Okay, first off, do you guys have an employee handbook that you signed off on when you were first hired? Do you have any of your policies in writing?

 

Regardless, sexual harassment does not have be to stated by the employer to be harassment. There are two forms of sexual harassment, hostile work enviroment and quid pro quo. The first is pretty self explanatory, the second means this for that. A date for a promotion, a kiss for a pay raise, a hug for a good performance review.

 

If your MM has ANY oversight over what you do then you definitely have a possible issue, definitely a breeding ground, for quid pro quo. I highly recc you check out the EEOC website as well as www.shrm.org for more information. Your company needs to be aware of their liability before a lawsuit, or worse a class action suit, is filed against them. Most employers don't realize what a ticking clock that actually is.

 

I can say that mine was very similar a few years back. We have grown from 200 odd employees to well over 700 in the last two years. This has brought it own host of issues and thusly a much more powerful HR dept as well a Legal dept.

 

i dont know, i will look into an employment handbook. i did sign a bunch of stuff, it was quite a while ago. i dont think he is trying to get me into trouble at work at this point, he is (was, as of yesterday) just trying to use work as a way to talk to me. i mean he even offers me MORE projects (which i turn down) so i dont think he wants me to go (the only time he suggested i find a new job was when he was 'thinking about' his plan for us to go public), he wants me around to try to get back w/ me. dont worry, it isnt happening.

 

we are a loosely organized company, its hard to describe the 'supervision' he has over me. he was my direct supervisor but even then i had a lot of independance & freedom to supervise myself. now he has no supervision unless he gives me a project to work on, i accept, & i report to him, or unless they are old projects that i still have to report to him on. so THEORETICALLY he could go to others & complain about my work, but that would look suspicious b/c in the past hes only been highly complimentary. so i guess i would say its possible but highly unlikely for him to wreck havoc on me. i have moved myself, w/ the help of the main boss, into a separate area where he really doesnt have much control over me.

 

im not really worried that anything will happen to me at work. but i do apprecite the advice & the insight from an HR person. its nice to have info. & know what the potentials are but at this point its not a direct threat. what little HR we have has known about us since our A was active & never did anything. now i have ended the A completely (i ended the PA a long time ago but kept letting myself get sucked back into a EA) so they would have way less of a reason to fire me now.

 

right now im just concentrating on myself & trying to be happy. im not sure yet if that means staying here & continuing to do well or moving to another job. right now im just concentrating on keeping NC, one step at a time. i have no reason to think im in jeapordy of losing my job, in fact things at work have gone even better since i switched away from XMM.

[White Flower]

sadly im beginning to realise your right. he is selfish & he overreacts hurtfully when his own feelings are hurt B/C he only thinks about himself. really i sit here & think, even if he was unclear about the terms of NC, if he truly loved me, wouldnt he ask me 'can you please explain what exactly is to happen b/t us untill im D'ed, i want you to be happy so im just asking so that i know the boundaries & then ill be sure to respect them.'

?

You are right about this. When I ended my A, exMM was deeply hurt yet very respectful and said he would follow whatever ground rules I laid down. He has not crossed those boundaries because he cares for me.

 

I know your guy is hurting but maybe the hurt will get him thinking in the direction he needs to go. In the meantime, you don't have to feel guilty for partaking in the A.

[neverendingsaga]

If you are right for each other and if he knows this then it has nothing to do with his W because that would mean he is not right for her. It would be easy for some to blame you because they defend marriage on the merits of marriage alone and forget to consider whether two people are meant to be. Don't be confused by this.

 

I'm wondering if he's just too narcissistic and controlling for you. Maybe deep down your regret is tied to the idea that you are demanding a divorce only to end up with someone who is not right for you?

 

It sounds as though you are discovering your self-worth. You know you deserve someone wonderful all to yourself AND that you deserve someone who is not going to control you or take advantage of you.

 

Most of the OWs here know beyond a shadow of a doubt who they want to end up with. But your guy is a doozie!

 

these are wise words, i'll think about them. its true that ive started to think, 'wow, ive done all of this for a total jerk.' i do believe what i did was wrong b/c i do value marriage. i want to get M'ed one day & i want my H & any other women to value that committment. so i feel like a hyprocrite. but i also feel even worse b/c im seeing that i went through all this & did something i think is wrong but justified b/c of love... all for someone who doesnt love me the right way. yes that does make me feel lower than low. like maybe if he did love me i would feel better about doing it, i dont know. but i have always felt it was wrong to do but it would end up ok b/c they were wrong together & we were right together. i guess how that old saying goes the end justifies the means. i dont think i would have been happy even if evertying had worked out b/c i would have always known i did the wrong thing deep down. so maybe its for the best that i got out before it becdame a lifetime of regret instead of... hopefullly... shorter than that. right now it feels like it will last a lifetime but i hope i can get over that feeling.

 

i dont know if im making sense, just rambling, your post was thought provoking thanks.

[White Flower]

I think the only way you get to that indifferent place is to love yourself more than you think you love the man he has pretended to be. It won't be easy or and overnight thing. It is a step by step process. But the first step is maintaining NC. He probably will continue to try to make you feel guilty, that isn't love, so be prepared to turn your attention somewhere else when he does contact you. When he invades your thoughts, look for support here from others who have gone NC or from family and friends.

 

Is there someone you can trust to tell you story to? Ask them if they are willing to help you through this difficult time. I don't know what your religious beliefs are, I will just say I pray a lot. If that isn't something you agree with, then I would definitely seek a support system.

 

There is one thing that is the same for BS and OP. We all hurt when the person we thought we had turns out to be someone less than what was expected or hoped for. I found comfort in friends and family as well as God. I made myself busy with living my life to the fullest and working on loving me more than I did him. And the man I thought he was has slowly faded from my memory and I see him the way he really is. Know that there is an end to the emotional roller coaster, you just have to be willing to step off when it slows down enough to jump off.

Great post, Bent.

[White Flower]

I'm reading his script right from the book of "How to be a Momma's Boy"!

 

The one thing you need to watch out for is if he carries a violent or vindictive side within his nature. Remember, until you started questioning your relationship with him, all he ever showed you was his "good side"!Also, if he ever does leave his wife he is going to expect and feel entitled to ownership of you. Mamma's boys are controlling that way. Your game is to frustrate the hell out of him, embarrass him, put him in his place, and then spin his dumb @ss into a dark orbit without allowing him to mess with you or your life!

 

Mamma's boys deserve a "beat down"!

Is this book for real? Who wrote it? Did they write it about my H? LOL.

[neverendingsaga]

You are right about this. When I ended my A, exMM was deeply hurt yet very respectful and said he would follow whatever ground rules I laid down. He has not crossed those boundaries because he cares for me.

 

I know your guy is hurting but maybe the hurt will get him thinking in the direction he needs to go. In the meantime, you don't have to feel guilty for partaking in the A.

 

i wish mine was like that. did yours ever say he was D'ing his wife? mine seems to think i dont believe him about that so he feels hurt that im not being more patient & waiting for him. that is prolly just another line & another way to make me feel guilty though. what i believe is that he WANTS to & PLANS to divorce his wife but he has no set plan put in place & he is never going to actually do it. i dont know if that makes sense, its like he knows he WANTS to but hes not doing what he NEEDS to.

 

anyway whatever the reason i wish he would see that i cant just sit around waiting for him to get around to doing what he says he wants & to realise what he needs to do in order to get D'ed/ be with me, & respect my wishes & the boundaries ive put in place. maybe you are stern w/ yours & i am too nice. but yesterday i was as bold as ive ever been & i was at my wits end. so if that doesnt get the point across i dont know what else will. today he was a lot better, just smiled at me sadly and said hello and are you okay? when i saw him in the hall. i said hello & just kept walking.

 

i want to believe his last txt message that he really understands & will 'leave me alone' as he says. i still want him to be the kind of man i need him to be which right now is someone who understands he has to let me go. i guess i am just too hopeful b/c i know that soon he will try to break NC like he always does.

[White Flower]

i wish mine was like that. did yours ever say he was D'ing his wife? mine seems to think i dont believe him about that so he feels hurt that im not being more patient & waiting for him. that is prolly just another line & another way to make me feel guilty though. what i believe is that he WANTS to & PLANS to divorce his wife but he has no set plan put in place & he is never going to actually do it. i dont know if that makes sense, its like he knows he WANTS to but hes not doing what he NEEDS to.

 

anyway whatever the reason i wish he would see that i cant just sit around waiting for him to get around to doing what he says he wants & to realise what he needs to do in order to get D'ed/ be with me, & respect my wishes & the boundaries ive put in place. maybe you are stern w/ yours & i am too nice. but yesterday i was as bold as ive ever been & i was at my wits end. so if that doesnt get the point across i dont know what else will. today he was a lot better, just smiled at me sadly and said hello and are you okay? when i saw him in the hall. i said hello & just kept walking.

 

i want to believe his last txt message that he really understands & will 'leave me alone' as he says. i still want him to be the kind of man i need him to be which right now is someone who understands he has to let me go. i guess i am just too hopeful b/c i know that soon he will try to break NC like he always does.

ExMM and I are very sentimental people and I knew that if we went NC one of us was bound to break it. So, in order to prevent us from a known failure, I did not suggest NC. We still talk and email which is hard (I wouldn't recommend this for everyone) because I can hear in his voice that he misses me and loves me. The thing is, I don't see him ever leaving his W and I know I can't go on forever as the OW. And I have never made an demand or ultimatum.

 

Like you, I just want him to do it on his own. This, in our minds, puts the blame on him alone (like our hero would do) for the ending of his M and relieves us of any guilt or blame in the future. I know some OWs think that is not fighting for what you want, but for some of us it is the preferred way.

 

I just expained to him that the pain of not ever fully having him was outweighing the joy of being with him. He understood and was a gentleman about it, even though he wanted me like there was no tomorrow. THIS is the kind of man you want to end up with.

 

ps

No, he never said he was D'ing her. He said he loved me, but cared for her. I guess the caring outweighed the loving.

[OWoman]

I just expained to him that the pain of not ever fully having him was outweighing the joy of being with him.

 

I guess in many LTAs there comes a point where the pain of not having it all outweighs the gain of having at least some. Before that, NC is impossible, as is any thought of ending it - there is simply too much to lose, and the risks are too great, however much there might be to gain. At that point, though, walking away becomes sensible because the pain starts to erode the pleasure, and the prospect of "having it all" starts to recede. NC becomes feasible - not just as a "tool to win the MM" but as a means of protecting the self against more pain. The loss is offset by the gains of MC itself, and while the possible ultimate benefit remains, that ceases to be the focus. Beyond that point, MC is simply about ending it, and even if the MM did leave and come with the stamped and sealed D in his hand, it would be too late, too much damage done.

 

Trying to force NC before that point is difficult and usually falls apart - making it more difficult to have it stick later. At that point, it's really tough, as there is deep questioning about whether one is indeed at that point, whether perhaps the benefits do still outweigh the costs, whether one is being over-hasty and not trusting his intentions, his honour, his commitment sufficiently - profound doubts, and perhaps vacillation. After that point it becomes easier, but the hurt accumulated is greater and the damage done deeper, requiring more care and nurturing to overcome.

 

Which is why outsiders push for NC earlier - minimise the damage - but insiders resist, wanting to maximise the pleasure gains before cutting their losses. But only the OW knows when she's reached her tipping point - and some may never reach it - despite the assertions of well-meaning outsiders viewing the situation "objectively". I guess it's like that old psych chestnut - "you have to WANT to change".

[Order & Chaos]

Ohhh NES. This chapter has left me speechless.

 

You've gotten so much great advice esp from Owl and O&C regarding all the back and forth emails.

 

It doesn't matter if you've got a pile of paper trails against him, the fact that YOU are part of the "willing" party who also used COMPANY time to nurture your affair is just cause to get rid of the both of you. IF the company values him in his supervisory capacity which his performance level remain unchanged or rose and yours unchanged, you will most likely be let go.

 

Even IF affairs are rampant within your company, if YOURS have raised more eyebrows than others, YOU and your MM may become the company's poster children of what they do with adultery in the work place.

 

YOU need to decide if he's worth the risk of losing your job. If he is, then keep using company emails on company time, keep extending your lunch break on company time or whatever it is that you two shouldn't be doing on company time.

 

New Sunrise, you aren't entirely correct here. B/c of his supervisory role he is actually "more" at fault that she is. Now that isn't saying that is the way the company will decide things but legally that is the case. There would be definite argument on whether this was EVER a consensual relationship due to the power imbalance and one that her attorney would definitely play up.

 

Also, if the company would decide to come over her/them as poster child(ren) then she/they would have absolute grounds for discrimination especially if the company knew about any other affairs. So unless they did a blanket sweep on all, which would start with a darn handbook they are leaving themselves open for even more trouble.

 

Now how this might come to head would be an outside employee would complain about unfair negative treatment due to them not being in a relationship with the "boss". They would have grounds as well for a hostile work environment.

 

The victim must be treated with kid gloves and she would most definitely be seen as the victim. Hands down. Again the company may do as you have indicated but I want to make VERY VERY clear that not only is it completely wrong it isn't legal and she would have an even better claim with the EEOC. There is a whole debate on whether or not, regardless of her age, if she was ever willing. Many would argue b/c of their jobs she could never be a willing partner.

 

And the company can not legally go after them for "adultery" per say. And actually couldn't go after her for the relationship unless they have already set the ground work on a no dating rule. Outside of that they could ding her for job performance or MAYBE inapporpriate behaviour but that is a stretch.

 

And lunch breaks are not on company time and can behaviour done can not be monitored by the company. Extension of breaks can be but if one stays within the break time period what they do (out of drugs, etc that would impact job performance/safety) the company has no grounds to oversee.

 

That is a very important lesson I guess everyone should realize, married or single, never never never date a subordinate! Even if they aren't in your department stay clear. Date others at your level or in other companies!

 

Oh, and did want to point out that some of the info posted does vary by state so check with your state laws.

[Order & Chaos]

i dont know, i will look into an employment handbook. i did sign a bunch of stuff, it was quite a while ago. i dont think he is trying to get me into trouble at work at this point, he is (was, as of yesterday) just trying to use work as a way to talk to me. i mean he even offers me MORE projects (which i turn down) so i dont think he wants me to go (the only time he suggested i find a new job was when he was 'thinking about' his plan for us to go public), he wants me around to try to get back w/ me. dont worry, it isnt happening.

 

we are a loosely organized company, its hard to describe the 'supervision' he has over me. he was my direct supervisor but even then i had a lot of independance & freedom to supervise myself. now he has no supervision unless he gives me a project to work on, i accept, & i report to him, or unless they are old projects that i still have to report to him on. so THEORETICALLY he could go to others & complain about my work, but that would look suspicious b/c in the past hes only been highly complimentary. so i guess i would say its possible but highly unlikely for him to wreck havoc on me. i have moved myself, w/ the help of the main boss, into a separate area where he really doesnt have much control over me.

 

im not really worried that anything will happen to me at work. but i do apprecite the advice & the insight from an HR person. its nice to have info. & know what the potentials are but at this point its not a direct threat. what little HR we have has known about us since our A was active & never did anything. now i have ended the A completely (i ended the PA a long time ago but kept letting myself get sucked back into a EA) so they would have way less of a reason to fire me now.

 

right now im just concentrating on myself & trying to be happy. im not sure yet if that means staying here & continuing to do well or moving to another job. right now im just concentrating on keeping NC, one step at a time. i have no reason to think im in jeapordy of losing my job, in fact things at work have gone even better since i switched away from XMM.

 

Definitely check your handbook to make sure nothing is going to bite you in the backend in the future. What you both should be a little concerned about, though, is an outside employee complaining about unfair treatment due to their lack of a relationship with the "boss" even not him. It is just a very slippery slope to be on and one that your MM should be much more concerned about then you. It isn't just a negative impact that is affecting you directly but a positive one that others would view as negative towards them. There is some what of a statute of limitation on this but it is broader than I think you are aware especially in the latter situation.

 

And as I posted in the other post to New Sunrise, HR would not be able to do anything about the affair if there isn't a no dating rule unless there were complaints or some negative impact on job performance. BUT that doesn't mean that it is going to be there in the future.

 

I do want to say, as I have been in HR mode here, is I am sorry for your situation and can understand the feelings you must be having. I hope you can focus your energy on other, rewarding things, and find the silver lining to this experience. Chin up and keep plugging away, your heart is in the right spot.

[frannie]

Just popping into the thread to say it's great to see you doing so well, NES. As so many people have said: you're intelligent and strong, and you're going to be fine. Keep it up!

 

[neverendingsaga]

New Sunrise, you aren't entirely correct here. B/c of his supervisory role he is actually "more" at fault that she is. Now that isn't saying that is the way the company will decide things but legally that is the case. There would be definite argument on whether this was EVER a consensual relationship due to the power imbalance and one that her attorney would definitely play up.

 

Also, if the company would decide to come over her/them as poster child(ren) then she/they would have absolute grounds for discrimination especially if the company knew about any other affairs. So unless they did a blanket sweep on all, which would start with a darn handbook they are leaving themselves open for even more trouble.

 

Now how this might come to head would be an outside employee would complain about unfair negative treatment due to them not being in a relationship with the "boss". They would have grounds as well for a hostile work environment.

 

The victim must be treated with kid gloves and she would most definitely be seen as the victim. Hands down. Again the company may do as you have indicated but I want to make VERY VERY clear that not only is it completely wrong it isn't legal and she would have an even better claim with the EEOC. There is a whole debate on whether or not, regardless of her age, if she was ever willing. Many would argue b/c of their jobs she could never be a willing partner.

 

And the company can not legally go after them for "adultery" per say. And actually couldn't go after her for the relationship unless they have already set the ground work on a no dating rule. Outside of that they could ding her for job performance or MAYBE inapporpriate behaviour but that is a stretch.

 

And lunch breaks are not on company time and can behaviour done can not be monitored by the company. Extension of breaks can be but if one stays within the break time period what they do (out of drugs, etc that would impact job performance/safety) the company has no grounds to oversee.

 

That is a very important lesson I guess everyone should realize, married or single, never never never date a subordinate! Even if they aren't in your department stay clear. Date others at your level or in other companies!

 

Oh, and did want to point out that some of the info posted does vary by state so check with your state laws.

 

thanks for the clarification. we have both been careless at work. sometimes i wonder if hes done this before b/c he really knew how to use work as a way to get to know me/ talk to me/ get me exited about things etc. but other times i think, well if hes done this before either the company totally lets him or he is really really careless & will get caught soon, & i just dont want it to be w/ me.

 

sometimes i think he is having a midlife crisis & he is so caught up in swirling happy feelings for me that he forgets his head & does silly or even mean/ selfish things. i am not trying to excuse his behavior, i guess i just realise that i have made aLOT of mistakes in this & he is human too. i want to still look at him positively even though his antics have been annoying & make me sad. ANYTHING could be true & the pesimistic side of me does wonder if there have been others or already someone new or someone hes working on. maybe im still being blind but i think that he WAS unhappy in his M & had thought about leaving before but he was scared & unsure. then i came along & he was filled w/ life & had more of a motivation to leave his M, and he came closer but he still couldnt quite do it. he has admitted that something holds him back that he doesnt understand, and he told me once that he read that fear can be stronger than love. fear of the unknown i guess, like what if i dont stick around after he leaves, and fear to humilate his wife & have people talk about him/ me (which he says would really hurt him, even though hes done careless things that have already caused them to talk about me, and him im sure but hes naive about that & thinks no one notices).

 

i guess i am tying in a lot of diff. topics, the working together aspect & the NC aspect. as WF & OW have been talking about, i was DEF. ready to stop this thing for myself. i was so wracked w/ so many diff. emotions, none of them good except 'love' for him which i was beg. to realise just wasnt enough. i felt used and also guilty and also worried that things at work would go bad. and i just felt tired of it, tired of wanting to be w/ him so badly when he wasnt being w/ me the right way. i even wonder why i waited so long, but i guess there was a point where i started to think 'hold on, this isnt right' but i kept going anyway out of blind hope or stupidity. so i went NC for -me- and you guys are right that i didnt do it to get him to make up his mind. that would be nice but i hope that unless he makes up his mind SUPER FAST i will be healed & moved on from this relationship & in a better place. and im doing it for him b/c i really dont want him to do anything hes not comfortable with. i dont want him to feel pressured to leave her or add to his confusion or stress. if in his time alone to think he wants to become a better man, and decide to end his M the right way & not bother me unless he can give me everything, that would be great, but if not, he will stay the man ive come to realise he is- unsure, confused, often selfish, kind of doing things on a whim, carelessly, etc.

 

otherwise i have to look at him as a predator who used his position of power to manipulate me. this could be true too, i just dont know anymore. if so then i was dumb for being manipulated & i have def. learned a lot of lessons from this & will never let it happen again.

 

as a final note about the HR thing i wanted to add that my company is not strict about most things, they give us independence, like i have no set schedule as long as i get my work done. and no anti-employee-dating policies and they dont seem to monitor us or talk to us about anything personal.

 

sorry for answering everyones posts all at once in one big post.

[White Flower]

I guess in many LTAs there comes a point where the pain of not having it all outweighs the gain of having at least some. Before that, NC is impossible, as is any thought of ending it - there is simply too much to lose, and the risks are too great, however much there might be to gain. At that point, though, walking away becomes sensible because the pain starts to erode the pleasure, and the prospect of "having it all" starts to recede. NC becomes feasible - not just as a "tool to win the MM" but as a means of protecting the self against more pain. The loss is offset by the gains of MC itself, and while the possible ultimate benefit remains, that ceases to be the focus. Beyond that point, MC is simply about ending it, and even if the MM did leave and come with the stamped and sealed D in his hand, it would be too late, too much damage done.

Did you mean NC?

 

Trying to force NC before that point is difficult and usually falls apart - making it more difficult to have it stick later. At that point, it's really tough, as there is deep questioning about whether one is indeed at that point, whether perhaps the benefits do still outweigh the costs, whether one is being over-hasty and not trusting his intentions, his honour, his commitment sufficiently - profound doubts, and perhaps vacillation. After that point it becomes easier, but the hurt accumulated is greater and the damage done deeper, requiring more care and nurturing to overcome.

 

Which is why outsiders push for NC earlier - minimise the damage - but insiders resist, wanting to maximise the pleasure gains before cutting their losses. But only the OW knows when she's reached her tipping point - and some may never reach it - despite the assertions of well-meaning outsiders viewing the situation "objectively". I guess it's like that old psych chestnut - "you have to WANT to change".

Excellent post, OWoman. You have so much insight for an OW who doesn't get too close (I suppose I mean too attached), sappy, and emotional like my kind.