Finally gave in to the ex and am back in therapy

[Fun2BMe]

Why would I want to record the sessions? If you were going out with someone, would you hire detectives to follow him around 'just in case?' That doesn't make sense. I don't see how any of this can be a problem unless I myself disclosed it to anyone. It would be dumb for him to, and it would be dumb for me to, so basically nobody is going to find out.

 

Also he is a good man and would never lie or blame me for something if it wasn't my fault. Also how could him having relations with me be my fault exclusively? Let's say I'm psychotic...does that release him from any responsibility, or logic would say that would make him more guilty since in that case, if I'm a nutso, he would surely be taking advantage. Am I missing something??? My sister thinks I'm a flirt and might be to blame and am 'seducing the poor man' which is not the case, but even if in that scenerio it was 'my fault' would that hold up in court? We're basically two adults consenting to our love.

[Fun2BMe]

This is not how you were feeling yesterday when you stated you felt used, and degraded, and like a piece of meat.

 

That's part of the reason why I didn't allow things to get physical yesterday, in addition to the thought of him with his wife bothering me. I think because we don't date in public and instead it is purely physical the limited time we have together, it is starting to make me feel degraded, but then the longer I am apart I start to feel only the positive feelings, liking a vicious cycle. That is something I want to bring up when we have our 'talk' tomorrow. I'm just scared to spill everything out too fast so I don't rock the boat too much.

[lonelybird]

Fun,

 

Did you ever feel split to two personalities? one second you feel so happy and he is so great; and next second you doubt him and feel degraded? The more disappointment you experience because of his lack of commitment (he is married), the more you will feel excite when you meet him and feel happy again. Do you see? your big disappointment will enhance the excitement that you experience during the short period. the short lived happiness is just a delusion you crave. You cannot get peace and true happiness from this kind of "spliting". If he cannot commit ALL, then better have nothing to do with him. which I don't see he dare to risk that much, he is playing safe

[bunset]

Fun,

 

I have not followed all your posts, but just this thread is setting off alarm bells for me!

I beg you, please go see a new therapist, ASAP.

I am familiar with many forms of therapy and know more than my share of Therapists with PhD, MA and LCSWs (for me not being in the mental health industry) and all will tell you that your therapist is endangering you! Any kind of relationship outside of the ethical, established practice is actually criminal, as long as you are being provided professional counseling from them. I know because one of my employers is a PhD and cannot 'treat' me or any member of my family professionally under penalty of being stripped of license and many different kinds of criminal/civil torts.

This therapist has every skill and motive to do serious, permanent, and potentially fatal damage to you!

Please, again, I beg you for your own good and the good of society, you must stop seeing him and discuss this with another licensed therapist.

The fact that you are stressed could be an indicator that the therapy may have already done you serious harm.

I will keep you in my thoughts for healing.

[lonelybird]

and you don't want to become his sex slave in name of love. Love is commitment, truly care about other's welfare, which your shrink failed all

[Fun2BMe]

This therapist has every skill and motive to do serious, permanent, and potentially fatal damage to you!

 

Why do you say he has every skill and motive to do serious, permanent, and potentially FATAL damage to me?? That is a creepy thought to think he'd want to harm me. But in his fairness, he told me months ago about how he doesn't treat his family and I think gave me an option to stop his sessions but I didn't want to end things. This was at the cusp of the physical. I don't think he's a bad person just because he loves me. Humans have weaknesses, as you can see in almost every relationship posted on here...But thanks for your kind words of keeping me in your thoughts. I hope I don't feel hurter than I sometimes am already feeling...

[Fun2BMe]

and you don't want to become his sex slave in name of love. Love is commitment, truly care about other's welfare, which your shrink failed all

 

Well, obviously he can't have an open commitment while he's married but I will report back what we discuss tomorrow.

[norajane]

Why do you post here, Fun?

 

I mean, every single person in this thread has told you over and over and over that having sex with your therapist is the worst and most damaging thing you can do to yourself, and is the worst and most damaging thing he can do to you. Everyone has given you the advice of getting the therapist and his wife completely out of your life. Everyone has told you that you ought to find a new therapist - a female therapist - as quickly as possible so you can actually start getting some real help from a professional who doesn't have a personal axe to grind.

 

And yet, you pretty much argue with everyone and firmly stick to continuing your affair with a married man therapist to whom you pay money. You perpetuate your trauma by sticking to your plan, and then you come and post here and all kinds of people take a lot of time to read and care about what you are going through, and then you completely ignore all the advice and run back to your therapist for more trauma.

 

You think everyone here is all wrong and you should continue doing what you're doing no matter what. So what is your purpose in posting here?

[Fun2BMe]

Norajane, being the one in the situation, I don't see the part about him being a therapist making it wrong. I understand where the married part being wrong comes in, which is why in my other original thread, I had initially not mentioned he was the therapist until others guessed and later it leaked through PMs that it was. I don't want the issue to be focused on that so that it is like black/white - just because he's a T it is off limits.

 

I have developed a lot of feelings for him so it's not easy for me to simply walk away just because HE took an oath not to cross the line with patients. He has told me on every time I have asked that I'm the only patient he has crossed the line with (his current wife was no longer a patient when they crossed and both were divorced first.)

 

Why do I keep posting? Because I get hurt and it is difficult to be in this situation. As lonelybird described it, one day or whole week I'll feel like on cloud 9, but then I come crashing down. And I have been taking advices. As I stated, on Monday I had no physical contact with him and told him that his married status is bothering me enough to not want to get physical that day and he said we'd discuss it Wed. Yeah it sucks that I will have to pay to discuss that with him, so that pisses me off too and that makes me want to post to get support to feel better about that.

 

I feel like it would be a betrayal if I told him I wanted to see a different therapist, just like if I were to tell my hair stylist I wanted to switch to another one. It'll send the wrong message that he's not good enough when I keep saying he's an excellent therapist, it's just that we have feelings that have turned into love and are now expressed physically.

 

I don't know what to do next. A few months ago I broke it off and later I saw him in a different light where I was mad at him and all that, but now I feel like we are more and more in love, except that now the not dating part makes me feel degraded and bad at times so we are going to talk about all that tomorrow. Maybe I'm posting prematurely before we have the talk tomorrow, but I guess any advice or insight seems to shed light where I might not see anything or be clueless about. I don't know.

 

But I don't want anyone to feel like I'm wasting their time with my posts. Without the feedback I have received, I honestly wouldn't have given the situation any second thought and would've been in crazy mode telling him to leave his wife for me already, but I am trying to take things slow and see what the best thing to do is, what he thinks and how deeply and to what extent he really feels and thinks our future would hold and so on. Or maybe he's doing all this as a sacrifice and favor, to show me what really love is after my ex hurt me so much.

 

I feel like he is so loving and passionate to show me what I desserve at the expense of everything he has, because he cares so much and so how can I turn around and say he's a bad guy for doing so much to help me? Just because he took a blanket oath which is to protect someone being preyed on whereas in our situation we are in love. I guess it's hard to sort it all out and deep down sometimes I'm scared if I am all wrong about it, if I am being taken advantage of, if he is giving the wrong advice for me to drop the ex. Maybe that part keeps me posting because I want to be reassured and supported that all is good, so each time I'm not, I feel more and more hurt inside even if I might not be sharing that part.

 

But night time like right now is the worst when I can't sleep because I only picture that he is in bed with his wife and the image of that is torturuous. So I need some answers tomorrow how he expects me to handle that and what is supposed to be done about that. There's no way I can live like this as a permanent way. And also I had recently said that I don't post when I think everything is going great because then if I get feedback that differs from what I am feeling it doesn't register or sink in and I get defensive, but when I'm confused and hurt things register more (fortunately I guess but then it's like I've had to wait til it's too late to find out the hard way).

[sb129]

I don't want the issue to be focused on that so that it is like black/white - just because he's a T it is off limits.

 

I have developed a lot of feelings for him so it's not easy for me to simply walk away just because HE took an oath not to cross the line with patients. He has told me on every time I have asked that I'm the only patient he has crossed the line with (his current wife was no longer a patient when they crossed and both were divorced first.)

 

But he IS off limits because he is your therapist- that is CRITICAL to the points everyone is trying to get you to understand.

 

You are too scared to walk away and find another therapist, because you are worried that if you end the sessions, he won't pursue you in any other (more normal) way.

 

HE took the oath, and HE is breaking it, if he really really wanted to be with you, he would STOP taking money off you, he wouldn't put his career in jeopardy, he would find ways to see you outside work- and then he would be just another MM, and you could get all the advice and support you needed on the OW board, where at least there people would support you being an OW.

 

Not one person on this thread condones you being the OW of your therapist.

 

Your posts are so deluded its scary Fun, and I really really feel so sorry for you.

 

I want you to be happy and healthy, and that state of mind sadly seems to be a long way off for you.

[Trimmer]

Yeah it sucks that I will have to pay to discuss that with him, so that pisses me off too and that makes me want to post to get support to feel better about that.

Well, your problem is that no one on here is going to tell you anything to make you feel better about it. It does suck, and it's wrong, and it should piss you off. Don't feel better about it - don't stand for it. It's wrong.

 

I feel like it would be a betrayal if I told him I wanted to see a different therapist, just like if I were to tell my hair stylist I wanted to switch to another one. It'll send the wrong message that he's not good enough when I keep saying he's an excellent therapist, it's just that we have feelings that have turned into love and are now expressed physically.

I'm not worried about the message you send him or your hair stylist. You are paying them for professional services. You get to stop whenever their services are not fulfilling your needs. Payment for service; there are no favors in such a relationship.

 

I would be much more concerned with the messages you are sending yourself. Messages that you aren't worth more, that you don't deserve better. Messages that you should ignore the degradation and humiliation of paying him for professional service that you aren't getting, and then paying him again in sex. Messages that you should suppress the dread you feel deep down - I believe somewhere deep down, you know this is twisted all around, and you are just holding that in... Do I need to go back and quote your own words to you? Messages that he holds all the power in this 'relationship' and you don't. These are all messages you are sending to yourself. And you really think his therapy is "helping" you?

 

...but I guess any advice or insight seems to shed light where I might not see anything or be clueless about.

Our comments don't really seem to be helping you shed any light, though.

 

But I don't want anyone to feel like I'm wasting their time with my posts. Without the feedback I have received, I honestly wouldn't have given the situation any second thought and would've been in crazy mode telling him to leave his wife for me already, but I am trying to take things slow and see what the best thing to do is, what he thinks and how deeply and to what extent he really feels and thinks our future would hold and so on.

Well then, let me say that I think we may have done you a disservice then. Maybe you would have been better off confronting him in crazy mode, giving him an ultimatum, putting him to the ultimate test. Then he would have had to make a decision, to take a stand, and you would have seen what kind of a man he really is.

 

I fear the possibility that we have "supported" you just enough to give you the resolve to hold your tongue, and stay mired and drag out this awful situation, and continue the damage it is doing to you.

 

Just because he took a blanket oath which is to protect someone being preyed on whereas in our situation we are in love.

Being "in love" is NOT an exception to his oath - IT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE OATH IS SUPPOSED TO PREVENT, and he has a specific professional responsibility not to even let it get started. Instead he cultivated it. Among other reasons, that's why we all think he is wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

You mention several times that he is a good man who would "never" lie. Well, he has knowingly broken his professional oath, and he has knowingly broken his marital oath. Wriggle around and convince yourself that that isn't technically "lying", or trumpet the claim that it (may be) his first time breaking either oath, but those do not excuse him and give him back his honor, any more than abstaining from sex for 2 years makes you a virgin again.

 

Now, listen to yourself:

I guess it's hard to sort it all out and deep down sometimes I'm scared if I am all wrong about it, if I am being taken advantage of, if he is giving the wrong advice for me to drop the ex. Maybe that part keeps me posting because I want to be reassured and supported that all is good...

It's not all good, Fun. Not at all. Listen to that voice. It's your voice talking to you. If you were working with a real therapist, you would feel safe voicing that to her, and she would work with you - not to tell you what to do, as he is - but to help you decide what to do for yourself, and find the power within you to do it.

 

...so each time I'm not, I feel more and more hurt inside...

What does that tell you?

 

There's no way I can live like this as a permanent way.

I think you shoud lead with that comment, the next time you talk.

 

I also think you should ask questions like these:

 

How do you see our future together?

 

What would happen if your wife found out about our relationship?

 

When do you anticipate being ready to leave your wife?

 

How do you think your wife will take it?

 

Do you consider what you are doing wrong, given the ethical standards of your profession? (And don't accept "it's the only time I've done it" - that is a dodge, not an answer to the question.)

 

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for a therapist and a patient to have a personal, emotional, and sexual relationship like ours?

 

What would happen if the licensing board found out about our relationship? (Don't fool yourself - when he tells you no-one will ever find out, think about his wife eventually putting the pieces together, or his secretary, who has seen your text messages.... C'mon, she's no fool. All it would take.....)

 

If our relationship were somehow reported, would you deny it? If I were asked about it in an investigation, would you expect me to tell the full truth?

 

Could I still continue as your patient if we were to get married?

 

Is having sex part of my therapy? If no, why do I pay for the sessions, then?

 

Is it important to draw boundaries and keep our relationship as lovers and romantic partners separate from our therapist/client relationship?

 

I bet you don't want to hear the answers to some of these, but I think you need to.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Fun,

 

Did you ever feel split to two personalities? one second you feel so happy and he is so great; and next second you doubt him and feel degraded?

 

I would bet that the problem is not 'split personalities' but a solid case of borderline personality disorder. A good deal of the sociopath therapists who target their patients for sex tend to target the BPD patients. One study I read said it was not unusual for a therapist like the one Fun is involved with to leave behind on an average 20-50 victims.

 

What bothers me is that this guy did it once. Now he is doing it again. How many other patients is he out there doing this to?

 

Fun is under the delusion that she is the only one, the special one - regardless of the fact that his wife sat in that office, too thinking the same thing when she was his patient. I would bet that his calendar is full of other hopeful young women who go there week after week, paying for that 50 minutes of 'special time'.

 

There are times like this where you wish you could do something about it.

[sb129]

Trimmer, your post was absolutely bang on the money, and thanks for taking the time to write down what everyone is thinking in such a succinct way.

 

As for the list of questions at the end- I couldn't agree more- Fun, are you ready to hear the answers to those questions?

 

A person in a normal committed, healthy R isn't afraid of those kind of questions.

[whichwayisup]

It's one thing for him to cheat on his wife and break his vows to her, but it's a completely different situation when a therapist, a doctor, whomever - ALL in positions of power take the Oath and break it.

 

I know I touched on this before, but if he really wanted to start up an affair with you, had feelings for you FUN, he would tell you goodbye as his client and see you as the OW outside of his office. He hasn't done that, he only sees you IN his office, in HIS control atmosphere...

 

Please don't get mad at me for saying this, but maybe you need to go back and re-read some older threads you replied on in the OW/OM forum afew months ago and apply that into your situation now.

[norajane]

I feel like it would be a betrayal if I told him I wanted to see a different therapist, just like if I were to tell my hair stylist I wanted to switch to another one. It'll send the wrong message that he's not good enough when I keep saying he's an excellent therapist, it's just that we have feelings that have turned into love and are now expressed physically.

 

This is exactly why he shouldn't be your therapist! Because you feel it's some kind of betrayal of him. A therapist-patient relationship works best when the therapist has no personal stake in the patient so the therapist can be truly objective. Even the BEST therapist cannot remain objective when he has a physical or emotional desire for a patient.

 

Starting therapy with someone else does not send the message he's not good enough. It sends the message that your mental and emotional health requires an objective caregiver who is not confused by her personal interests in you.

[StaringContest]

This therapist has every skill and motive to do serious, permanent, and potentially fatal damage to you!

 

This is what I'm afraid of. Fun, I know you'll eventually see this guy's true colors, but I'm worried that he'll have done too much damage by that time and you'll end up suicidal. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.

 

I found some sites that you might find helpful. I think they're ok to post since they aren't commercial sites.

http://www.advocateweb.org/hope/moreaboutexploitation.asp

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1124/t_abuse.html

http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/erotic.html

 

I think that last one is important for you to read if you haven't seen it before.

 

And this could be you in time (minus a husband). Notice that she thought she was the only one too, but found out later that he was doing the same with other patients. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128712

 

If I come across any other useful links, I'll share them with you.

[StaringContest]

Here's a couple quotes from that first site. They have little boxes of quotes from people who've been in a similar situation to what you're in now.

 

"At first, my counselor really helped me through a difficult part of my life. I felt like he really cared. I shared my deepest innermost self with him. Over time, he began telling me how hard his life was and how unhappy he was in his marriage. One day, he leaned forward and kissed me, the next thing I knew, we were making love right there in his office. I knew it was wrong, but for some reason, I just couldn't tell him NO. That was the beginning of what later became a nightmare in my life."

 

"I admired him so much and I was flattered when he admitted that he found me attractive. At first it seemed so romantic. I don't know what happened. I feel like I lost touch with who I am and all that I believed about myself. This has hurt me so bad. I can't trust anyone anymore. I feel so alone in my pain. Each day, it hurts to even wake up."

 

Fun, please read those sites and see this for what it is. What he's doing is the worst kind of abuse. I'm concerned about you, and I don't want you to be hurt like those women.

[crazy_grl]

Fun, back when you weren't sure whether to go to therapy, I encouraged you to go. Now I feel partly responsible and guilty for your situation.

 

Back then I had a bad feeling about this guy. Things about his behavior, his phone calls, and being friends with your ex just seemed like a really bad sign to me. I thought I was just being paranoid, but I should have trusted my gut and encouraged you more strongly to find a different therapist. I did mention it once or twice, but in hindsight, I wish I had voiced that opinion more strongly and told you then about my doubts about this guy. Maybe if I had, you wouldn't be in this situation.

 

I'd really like to be able to tell you that I agree that this guy loves you, but the things he's doing are not signs of love. I hope you'll see that soon and find the strength to get out of this situation. You deserve better than this. *hug*

[StaringContest]

Hey, Fun. How are things? Did you get a chance to read the stuff on any of those links?

[Fun2BMe]

Hey, Fun. How are things? Did you get a chance to read the stuff on any of those links?

 

Things are terrible to say the least. I have been reading a lot of the information on the sites and it's making me feel worse to think if it could apply to my situation. Weekends are hardest when I am away from him and imagine him to be with his wife and he doesn't even call but acts like he missed me and is in love with me when I see him for the appointments.

 

There is also two other very very big pieces to the story I don't think I could disclose, but would shock you and so it is so hard what I am going through I don't know what to do. As soon as I see him I feel things are back to ok but every day I am feeling worse and worse. I don't want to believe he is exploiting or taking advantage of me. I want to believe what he tells me at face value, especially that I am the only patient he has done this with and feels this way about so it is very hard to be this confused and instead feeling hurt more and more.

[LucreziaBorgia]

I hope you can find your way out of this, Fun. Your story is sad and frustrating. When you said that you have a couple of 'big pieces' I hope that one of them is not that you are pregnant. I can't even begin to imagine what turn your life would take if that is the case. I would be sincerely afraid for you, and what this man would do to you if you turned up pregnant.

[StaringContest]

Sorry to hear that, Fun. I think though that you're feeling this bad because things are really starting to sink in. I know this isn't easy. Nobody wants to believe that someone who claims to love them doesn't. It's a lot easier to believe what they're saying than what their actions are telling you.

 

To all of us outside observers, this guy is as transparent as cellophane. But because you're personally involved, everything is cloudy. I know you don't want to risk doing something stupid like giving up on the chance to be with someone who really loves you. That's perfectly understandable, but you have to remember to look at his actions objectively.

 

I suggest you take a break from seeing him for a couple weeks to clear your head. Don't tell him why you're taking a break. That'll just let him know he might be losing his influence over you, and he'll to try to suck you back in. Tell him you're taking a trip to see your family or something. Then use that time to sort things out.

 

I've suggested this before, and though you haven't been receptive in the past, I'm going to suggest it again, because I think it's a good idea. Talk to a female counselor. Just tell her you're dating a married man and are having trouble dealing with it. You don't have to reveal that he's your therapist if you don't want to.

[IpAncA]

especially that I am the only patient he has done this with

 

I don't know why you keep saying that. Didn't he marry one? Or was that someone else on here who said that?

[Spinderella]

It sounds as though every time you become afraid of the truth, you run to him to reassure you of what you want to believe. He is good at reassuring you, it is how he keeps you there. When you are away from him, you begin to see the reality of things, and when you are with him, you allow him to convince you otherwise. The more you talk to him about your feelings, the more he knows what to say to reassure you.

What do you really want?

Do you wish you could be free?

[LucreziaBorgia]

I don't know why you keep saying that. Didn't he marry one? Or was that someone else on here who said that?

 

He did sleep with and later marry one of his patients. He initiated an affair with her before he was divorced, while she was a patient, and eventually left his first wife for her (though it wouldn't surprise me if she actually left HIM). Now, surprise, surprise... he is cheating on this wife with another patient. Or several. My guess is several. People like him don't stop with just one...