amerikajin Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 "Faith" is a tool that humans use so that they don't crazy with fear when it comes to the unknown. I think religions like Christianity and Islam have an appeal because they provide a set of rules by which to abide, and if you abide by them, then you get to enter this wonderful place called 'heaven'. It sounds all wonderful and good, but I find there's nothing in this life that would lead me to believe that this is how the Universe operates. Christianity's "proof" of God is the Bible itself, and the faith you place in the words that are written in it. Link to post Share on other sites
HokeyReligions Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 "truth" is subjective. I think it has a lot to do with advertising. What are the most heavily advertised religions? I'm not talking about TV or Radio - but social advertising and word-of-mouth. The advertising is handed down generation after generation. Humans seek out what supports their beliefs - often under the guise of educating themselves about other beliefs. We as a species crave validation so we find it. Sometimes we change our views and sometimes we alter our beliefs and methods of worship - but most often all we do is change the name of the God we worship and follow different teachings. Baptist vs. Catholic for example. Same God - different paths. Islam is the same God, but a very different interpretation and path from Christian. Jewish and Christian believe in the same God too. To me it says that humanity as a whole has the same basic need to believe in a supreme being. Its too bad that it pushes us apart socially, rather than bringing people together. Me - I'm agnostic. I neither believe in a God nor disbelieve in a God. I think there is room for faith and science. For those who believe in God (any God) isn't it possible that science and scientific discovery is part of that God's plan too? If one God created the world and all mankind than that God also created science and the ability of humankind to work with that science. Just MHO Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 For those who believe in God (any God) isn't it possible that science and scientific discovery is part of that God's plan too? If one God created the world and all mankind than that God also created science and the ability of humankind to work with that science. I'd gander to say that many believers feel this way, but don't necessarily feel they need to say it to prove a point – extremists on either end, however, are happy to jump into the fray and loudly insist that faith and science are mutually exclusive, and happily try to drown out the middle of the roader who doesn't have a problem with either! Link to post Share on other sites
DutchGuy Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 For those who believe in God (any God) isn't it possible that science and scientific discovery is part of that God's plan too? If one God created the world and all mankind than that God also created science and the ability of humankind to work with that science. I'd gander to say that many believers feel this way, but don't necessarily feel they need to say it to prove a point – extremists on either end, however, are happy to jump into the fray and loudly insist that faith and science are mutually exclusive, and happily try to drown out the middle of the roader who doesn't have a problem with either! Isn't that a little too easy? I understand that every individual has his / her own believes which can be a mixture of bible-facts and personal believes, but... Religions in general (in the traditional way) aren't compatible with science, because they are founded on holy writings, which are pertinent contradictionary to science. So does that mean that most people don't see the bible, quran, torah as fundament for their believe? But more the "There must be something out there"-feeling? I used to have a lot of discussions with believers that were sceptic towards evolution, nowadays I get a lot of "evolution is very compatible with creation". This bugs me, believers tend bend their believes in order to integrate them into the presence. The new pope stated that stillborns go straight to heaven because the whole idea of the Limbo was outdated. I mean, something IS or ISN'T, you can't just change your mind about your believes because you feel different today than yesterday. 100 years ago, homosexuality was absolute sin in the world religions, today some of them accept it (WHAT THE F***?) According to the bible, Earth is flat. Yet the christian leaders decided to admit that Earth is spheric. I know that you people are going to tell me that you don't follow the pope or the bible, but admit that your current believes are direct derivatives with the only exception being indecisiveness regarding all matters scientific. And please, if you reply, don't quote a lot of bible verses or spiritual phrases. Try to understand what I'm asking and answer me clearly. Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Dutchguy, you make a good point. Yet true believers of any faith have always been very selective on what parts of their Holy Books they believe. There are still Millions of Christians who believe being Homosexual is a sin. Gays will burn in hell no matter how much good they did in this life. I wonder if Junis Salk The man who discover the vaccine for Polio is burning in hell because he was a Jew? Are those who commit Murder in the name of Christ going to heaven? Aren't they forgiven of their sin because they believe? My personal believe is mine. I am happy with it. I see little need to live by a flawed Book or Books. You see that many of the believers here are no longer posting. I think they are unable to come up with good arguments for their Faith. Rather then examine some of the aspects of others and there thoughts on God. They retreated. It is so much easier to just believe rather then question and come up with troubling answers. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 .... They retreated. It is so much easier to just believe rather then question and come up with troubling answers. we retreated for not shoving anything down your throat Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 Curious as to why some of you think your beliefs are right & others r wrong? There's so many. Usually by looking at the evidence, and the way they have formulated their beliefs. If the other person ignores the evidence whereas I research it thoroughly, usually I'll think I'm right and the other person is wrong (assuming we have differing views). If the other person has not thought their beliefs through properly (e.g. they believe something just because their parents or friends told them it), and I have, then I'll assume I'm more likely to be right. If I know much less about an issue, or haven't thought it through, then I'll tend not to dismiss other people's opinions on it, especially if they have studied it thoroughly and appear to be a fairly logical and rational person. Link to post Share on other sites
dropdeadlegs Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 Curious as to why some of you think your beliefs are right & others r wrong? There's so many. There are so many different beliefs. I don't think mine are right and others are wrong. If your (or my) beliefs give you a sense of peace, a reason/explanation for the many questions of this world, then I believe you have chosen the "right" beliefs. What concerns me most is not the many beliefs and whose are right or wrong, but why we can't all just agree that we differ. Why all the debating ad nauseum? Why the need to BE "right?" Does it really matter if anyone else agrees with you? I wholeheartedly suggest we should all learn more about faith's other than our own. Why can't we ask questions about why another chooses his particular beliefs and determine for ourselves if that is something we find useful, or not? I suppose that is another thread. Link to post Share on other sites
knaveman Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Scientifice reason and logic have not place in religious faith. If you belive something you belive it for a reason ( i hope) and there is no reason to defend it to anyone. Make sure your belifes are your own and not for the sake of being differernt. Don't go against the grain just for the sake of doing so. If your faith is strong nothing can ever shake it, even the truth. There is a difference betweem faith and blind faith. Make sure yours is faith. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Hi, How do you know your beliefs are right? Curious as to why some of you think your beliefs are right & others r wrong? Ok, I didn't read this whole thread... My beliefs are right for me, and other's beliefs, even if they are different than mine, are right for them. (For the simple reason that they have them). Ariadne Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 i have beliefs that are pretty uncommon, and i don't subscribe to the view that humans cannot know what is truth and what is untruth. i think this is a damaging lie, circulated to prevent people from trying to discover the truth by stopping them before they start looking. what makes me confident my beliefs are on the right track is that i'm not afraid to challenge them and abandon them when i receive a higher understanding or grasp a further concept. belief is just a stepping stone to experience and to knowledge of god - or it should be - and any belief that is questioning, that is not blind and that teaches us a life lesson, could be said to be true IF it helps a person grow, which is i believe the very purpose of life. i have abandoned organised religion, but because it's not right for me doesn't mean it's not right for other people. i could not have seen beyond christianity without first refusing to see beyond it, so for me being a member of an organised religion was a positive experience and a necessary one. and i think while people view any religion or belief as part of a journey, rather than a final destination, they may be 'right' even when holding opposing views to someone else who may also be 'right'. that's not to say there is no ultimate truth, for there is. but it isn't found in any faith where right is the opposite of wrong, or where right and wrong as concepts are equal. there is a third option most people haven't thought of yet. THAT's truth. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted May 12, 2007 Share Posted May 12, 2007 i have beliefs that are pretty uncommon, and i don't subscribe to the view that humans cannot know what is truth and what is untruth. i think this is a damaging lie, circulated to prevent people from trying to discover the truth by stopping them before they start looking. what makes me confident my beliefs are on the right track is that i'm not afraid to challenge them and abandon them when i receive a higher understanding or grasp a further concept. belief is just a stepping stone to experience and to knowledge of god - or it should be - and any belief that is questioning, that is not blind and that teaches us a life lesson, could be said to be true IF it helps a person grow, which is i believe the very purpose of life. i have abandoned organised religion, but because it's not right for me doesn't mean it's not right for other people. i could not have seen beyond christianity without first refusing to see beyond it, so for me being a member of an organised religion was a positive experience and a necessary one. and i think while people view any religion or belief as part of a journey, rather than a final destination, they may be 'right' even when holding opposing views to someone else who may also be 'right'. that's not to say there is no ultimate truth, for there is. but it isn't found in any faith where right is the opposite of wrong, or where right and wrong as concepts are equal. there is a third option most people haven't thought of yet. THAT's truth. The truth is LOVE, which everyone is searching for, or not? Link to post Share on other sites
Author VirtualInsanity Posted May 12, 2007 Author Share Posted May 12, 2007 My beliefs are right for me, and other's beliefs, even if they are different than mine, are right for them. (For the simple reason that they have them). Ariadne Good answer. Thanks for all your replys. Didn't expect many & glad this didn't turn into a holy war. Link to post Share on other sites
Zona76 Posted May 12, 2007 Share Posted May 12, 2007 I saw this thread and HAD to put in my 2 cents. Actually the question alone is hilarious! But it was all in how I took the statement. How do I know what I believe is right? Define faith. Now you just went and thought of religion. Faith is when you get out of that bed in the morning you will be coming back. Faith is when you look at your child smiling and playing and laughing without a care in the world that he/she will grow to be a fine adult. How do I know this? Faith. I know I will eat today, go to the bathroom and I know my lover will be in bed with me tonight. We all have thoughts in our head. Some wrong some right and most of us know deep in our hearts the difference. I know what I feel. I may be saddened by a storm that rocks a city or a war that devastates the world. Do I know what's right and whats wrong? Yes I do. Do I believe MY thoughts are the only thoughts to be pursued? We are a world of diversified humans. Thats what makes us who and what we are. I may not like YOUR music. Or YOUR dress. Or your abusive language. But I still feel it's right for YOU. Not for me, but for YOU. We need to accept others and teach the world it's okay to feel what we do. It's when the laws of nature are broken and likes are taken and possessions are stolen because THIS individual was not told, it's not okay. There is hate out there in our world.Hate is more powerful in destruction. But love is the stronger. Lets try not to drown out LOVE. I believe Love conquers all. That is my faith! Adding... If you don't believe yours is right then they are wrong. It doesn't mean I feel your's are wrong. I only know what is right for me. Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted May 12, 2007 Share Posted May 12, 2007 The truth is LOVE, which everyone is searching for, or not? not. and not not. in other words, yes and no. not everyone is searching for love. i'm not, for example. i'm not searching for love in any of its manifestations. i'm giving it. or rather, i'm trying to BE it. or rather, i'm trying to realise that i already AM it. so while love (in its broadest concept of which human affection is only a small part) is part of the truth, it is not THE truth. the truth is muuuuuuuch bigger than 'love', or indeed LOVE. keep looking. Link to post Share on other sites
burning 4 revenge Posted May 12, 2007 Share Posted May 12, 2007 The truth is LOVE, which everyone is searching for, or not?No Lonleybird, the truth is death. Link to post Share on other sites
HokeyReligions Posted May 12, 2007 Share Posted May 12, 2007 Isn't that a little too easy? I understand that every individual has his / her own believes which can be a mixture of bible-facts and personal believes, but... Bible "Facts" ? Religions in general (in the traditional way) aren't compatible with science, because they are founded on holy writings, which are pertinent contradictionary to science. I disagree a bit here. "science" has existed alongside life on the planet. It is each societies interpretation and development that lead beliefs and acceptance - or nonacceptance of the dictates of science. Science proves and disproves the same things - it depends on how much people understand. Many scientists claim to prove or disprove bits of 'holy writings' all the time. Science may someday 'prove' carbon dating as flawed or incorrect, but right now many people 'believe' in it because it makes sense. Some of the people written about in the bible may have been scientists of their time - but those doing the writing were not; so they interpreted it as best they could understand it and as best general society could understand it. So does that mean that most people don't see the bible, quran, torah as fundament for their believe? But more the "There must be something out there"-feeling? I can't speak for most people and would not want to make such a generalization - but from my own POV I believe that there is probably something to it. Which, in a nut shell, is why I'm agnostic and not outright athiest. I used to have a lot of discussions with believers that were sceptic towards evolution, nowadays I get a lot of "evolution is very compatible with creation". This bugs me, believers tend bend their believes in order to integrate them into the presence. Why can't there be both? Perhaps this is enlightenment. The new pope stated that stillborns go straight to heaven because the whole idea of the Limbo was outdated. I mean, something IS or ISN'T, you can't just change your mind about your believes because you feel different today than yesterday. Ah, there's the rub. So many look at science and religion as black and white; Is or Isn't. I look at life in shades of gray. A blending of the edges. 100 years ago, homosexuality was absolute sin in the world religions, today some of them accept it (WHAT THE F***?) Enlightnment? Acceptance? Fear to believe otherwise? I talked with one person recently who loves someone who is gay. They can't believe that this person would go to hell because of it when this person leads a very moral life according to Christian moral teachings -with this one exception. They don't doubt God because of their friend and their fear, but they do wonder if the Bible wasn't shaded by the society of the time and/or that there is simply more to it. They put their own belief in God's hands and pray for their own understanding now - rather than praying for their gay friend to see the error of their ways. According to the bible, Earth is flat. Yet the christian leaders decided to admit that Earth is spheric. Where is that in the Bible? I thought that was all metaphoric. Life isn't one dimensional, although the scriptures seem to read that way at times. I know that you people are going to tell me that you don't follow the pope or the bible, but admit that your current believes are direct derivatives with the only exception being indecisiveness regarding all matters scientific. You know that do you? LOL You brought up some points, but this sentence made me think you are being defensive. It might not be that way at all, its just how I initially interpreted your words when I read them. And please, if you reply, don't quote a lot of bible verses or spiritual phrases. Try to understand what I'm asking and answer me clearly. Sometimes a quote from the bible is a good beginning to a discussion - but I agree that there is no discussion if its just someone trying to force you (or me or anyone else) to believe the way they do because of bits of text. That doesn't seem very open-minded to me - but then some people believe an open mind is the gateway for the devil. My mom was like that. She would discuss to a point, but then would shut down when a discussion seemed to threatening or she wasn't prepared to answer the way she wanted to answer - she knew her limitations too. I knew it didn't mean she was agreeing with me or giving up, just that she felt she couldn't do justice to the conversation. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted May 13, 2007 Share Posted May 13, 2007 not everyone is searching for love. i'm not, for example. i'm not searching for love in any of its manifestations. i'm giving it. or rather, i'm trying to BE it. or rather, i'm trying to realise that i already AM it. . then I want you to be in my life Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted May 13, 2007 Share Posted May 13, 2007 then I want you to be in my life yeah, i get that a lot. Link to post Share on other sites
DutchGuy Posted May 14, 2007 Share Posted May 14, 2007 I disagree a bit here. "science" has existed alongside life on the planet. It is each societies interpretation and development that lead beliefs and acceptance - or nonacceptance of the dictates of science. Science proves and disproves the same things - it depends on how much people understand. Many scientists claim to prove or disprove bits of 'holy writings' all the time. Science may someday 'prove' carbon dating as flawed or incorrect, but right now many people 'believe' in it because it makes sense. Some of the people written about in the bible may have been scientists of their time - but those doing the writing were not; so they interpreted it as best they could understand it and as best general society could understand it. Well, you have "the absolute truth", religion (religion if followed is claimed to be the truth). And "The approximation of the truth", science (science is never claimed to be absolute truth). The irony is that, religion excludes science, but science doesn't exclude religion. Because, as you say, science changes over time. Ofcourse something like gravity is compatible with religion, but I mean "science" as in evolution. Simply by saying that the fundaments of religion, the writings (people that made up their own god without being influenced by writings or others raise your hand), are cryptic, implies that "god" could be cryptic (as I believe, religion was created to teach people moral and ethics, fear of god is the most powerful reason to live by these rules). I can't speak for most people and would not want to make such a generalization - but from my own POV I believe that there is probably something to it. Which, in a nut shell, is why I'm agnostic and not outright athiest. I have that too, it's called wishfull thinking. Why can't there be both? Perhaps this is enlightenment. In my opinion, enlightenment wouldn't involve gods, elves, orcs or unicorns. Ah, there's the rub. So many look at science and religion as black and white; Is or Isn't. I look at life in shades of gray. A blending of the edges. Hey, It's religion that makes things black and white. At least it was, now that that doesn't work anymore they go "shades of gray" on me. "It's cryptic!", "It's encoded!", "It's a test!". It was 100% truth for hundreds of years, count your losses and come to the conclusion. Enlightnment? Acceptance? Fear to believe otherwise? I talked with one person recently who loves someone who is gay. They can't believe that this person would go to hell because of it when this person leads a very moral life according to Christian moral teachings -with this one exception. They don't doubt God because of their friend and their fear, but they do wonder if the Bible wasn't shaded by the society of the time and/or that there is simply more to it. They put their own belief in God's hands and pray for their own understanding now - rather than praying for their gay friend to see the error of their ways. Well, we have had church leaders for hundreds of years, THEY claimed that homosexuality is a sin - THEY created the aversion. While all they had to do was ask god (whom they speak daily), and he would've told them that homosexuality isn't sin. Come on now, homosexuality was accepted before Christianity, and Christianity turned it into sin. Now, they want to accept it again. For people that converse with "the big man" every day christians seem to be totally ignorant of the "rules". Where is that in the Bible? I thought that was all metaphoric. Life isn't one dimensional, although the scriptures seem to read that way at times. Well, the bible tells about an immovable Earth: Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.” Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...” Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...” Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.” Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...” Furthermore: Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Also, a spheric Earth doesn't have a centre. These quotes don't seem cryptic to me at all. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. You know that do you? LOL You brought up some points, but this sentence made me think you are being defensive. It might not be that way at all, its just how I initially interpreted your words when I read them. Well, you don't follow the pope or the bible do you? But you are influenced enough by others to wonder if there might be a god. Link to post Share on other sites
DutchGuy Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Somebody respond please. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Somebody respond please. Oh, yes. Lord is living in me, I know he is real, he is alive, he is directing my path, rebukes me when I do wrong, teach me about truth about love about forgiveness, he is there when I need his guidance, HE give me peace and love and mercy. HE is rock, I have HIM I know I won't fall no matter what :love: It is your choice to believe or not. I am happy with mine:) Praise God:bunny: Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Quite simply, nobody knows. Certainty and knowledge are not the same. Not even close. Everything attributed to god can just as easily be attributable to other means. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
knaveman Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Quite simply, nobody knows. Certainty and knowledge are not the same. Not even close. Everything attributed to god can just as easily be attributable to other means. Cheers, D. Of course nobody knows, that is the faith part. You cannot believe in something if you know it for a fact, because at that point you "know" it. Faith comes from the heart, not the brain. The only true faith lies within each of us. God can tell us anything he/she likes, we are the only ones who believe anything. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I am of the position that beliefs ought to be deduced from what we do know, not chosen because they provide comfort. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
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