new_stella Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 <** taking off my black hat **> <** puttin on red hat **> littlepiggy, if you don't mind me asking: Was porn (other women/fantasies/polygamous tendencies... or something along those lines) the reason you broke up with your ex? Link to post Share on other sites
littlepiggy1 Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 The sample we are talking about is small and not representative and as such cannot represent evidence. Um, it most certainly is evidence regardless of how much you try to rationalize it away.. Maybe you can’t do a pure random sample, but you can do much, much better than that. It takes many studies, and in different part of the world AT LEAST to call something a science. Science also has additional various tools and is not based solely on surveys. Uh, no. This is admittedly a singular survey that is admittedly also somewhat limited. But it's still scientific evidence. Evidence does not stop being evidence just because there isn't enough of it. The study you're talikin about is simply a survey and you cannot calculate your percentages and put us all in the boxes based on an EXTREMELY limited survey. Right now it's the only data I have to work with. Besides, even if the numbers are off (and they probably are), this doesn't mean that they are off in such a degree that you can dismiss them wholesale. iamwhoiam has posted a couple of links. Have you read them? Yes, and I didn't see anything to refute my current stance. Than again based on this small sample, you are in the minority (in the 33.33%)! Chances to find a man who doesn’t fantasize is 50%! You can laugh, but you are doing exactly the same thing with your survey! Comparing to the entire population there is no difference between the sample of 3 and a sample of 349. You can't base your conclusion on either of them. None of them gives us evidence, only results. Oi, you need to talk a stats course too. There is tremendous difference between a sample size of 3 and a sample size of 349. A sample size of 3 would have a confidence interval that would span the entire range. You wouldn't be able to draw any conclusions from that. OTOH, as I pointed out a sample size of 349 has a confidence interval of +/- 5%, 95% of the time. It's much narrower, therefore more accurate. In fact, you'd only need to survey about 9000 random people (in America) to get a +/- 1% interval 95% of the time that would be representative of the entire population. There is nothing anecdotal about genetic diversity. High school textbooks talk about it and its effect to the survival of species. Not only that, this very idea of genetic diversity lies in the core of the theory of polygamous nature of the human beings, in which you believe so passionately. Um, that wasn't what I was saying. What people are presenting on this forum is mostly anecdotal evidence based on their own personal subjective experience. That isn't exactly scientific. Link to post Share on other sites
littlepiggy1 Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 <** taking off my black hat **> <** puttin on red hat **> littlepiggy, if you don't mind me asking: Was porn (other women/fantasies/polygamous tendencies... or something along those lines) the reason you broke up with your ex? The reasons my ex and I split up were many. Porn became a part of it, most notably because of her insecurities. Oddly, though, porn wasn't an immediate issue and at the start of the relationship she claimed she understood that most guys look at/whack off to porn and she was cool with that. Even odder was that she would initiate trips to the adult video store so we could pick up movies and watch them together. But over the course of the relationship her insecurities started to manifest. It became about art I drew, certain art books I owned, video covers I'd look at at the movie store (the regular movie store even), etc. I gradually started to become neurotic about anything that involved anything to do with other women. Yet oddly porn became the last issue. Eventually I just gave up trying to make the relationship work. It was too draining and I wasn't happy. So we split up. Oddly, I think she thinks she dumped me. But whatever. I have no regrets. Link to post Share on other sites
new_stella Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 And I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your study down!! The Big Bad Wolf :laugh: P.S. Looks like we are in different time zones. I'm off to work now. I'll read your answer when I come back. Have fun Stella Link to post Share on other sites
LucreziaBorgia Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 I DO NOT FANTASIZE. Surely you fantasize about something - whether it be winning the lottery, or taking a fabulous trip, or something like that. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Surely you fantasize about something - whether it be winning the lottery, or taking a fabulous trip, or something like that. I am talking about sexual fantasies. Don't compare someone's desire to win 100 million to their partner's desire to sleep with others. It is not the same. Link to post Share on other sites
LucreziaBorgia Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 I am talking about sexual fantasies. Don't compare someone's desire to win 100 million to their partner's desire to sleep with others. It is not the same. Of course not. One is sexual, the other not. Some people have sexual fantasies, others apparently do not (or at least have the capability to supress them or deny them to the point of convincing themselves or others they don't have them). The point is, is that everyone fantasizes. Some just have different types of fantasies than others, and neither type is "bad" or "wrong", just different. As for "desire to sleep with others" - not all sexual fantasies are about wanting to cheat on your partner. It is just the brain's way of processing sexual curiosity without the desire to actually act on it. Not everyone who has sexual fantasies does so out of fault of their partner, nor do they fantasize "on purpose" or out of any desire to hurt their partner - I guess that is the part you are having so much trouble understanding. Link to post Share on other sites
RF123 Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Like I said rainfall, if porn watching is such a deal breaker for you you should discuss it BEFORE entering a serious relationship, you can't expect someone to change themselves because they're your bf. And that stops it? just like that? let me tell you that it was clearly outlined before my bf and I started to date 2 years ago. and guess who got caught with porn? It's not about stating it. It's what people think they can get away with. It IS completely a respect thing, and it's a big issue Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Of course not. One is sexual, the other not. Some people have sexual fantasies, others apparently do not (or at least have the capability to supress them or deny them to the point of convincing themselves or others they don't have them). The point is, is that everyone fantasizes. Some just have different types of fantasies than others, and neither type is "bad" or "wrong", just different. As for "desire to sleep with others" - not all sexual fantasies are about wanting to cheat on your partner. It is just the brain's way of processing sexual curiosity without the desire to actually act on it. Not everyone who has sexual fantasies does so out of fault of their partner, nor do they fantasize "on purpose" or out of any desire to hurt their partner - I guess that is the part you are having so much trouble understanding. Sexual fantasies are very disrespectful to the other partner. "Yeah honey lets have sex but since you put on 10 pounds I am going to pretend you are the hot chick from the store".... (not referring to my relationship just using this as an example.) It is the brains way of fulfilling desires that the partner they have can't/won't. Link to post Share on other sites
new_stella Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 During my 4-year engineering course and 3-year post graduate studies, I’ve done quite a few math subjects, including stats. However, you need neither post graduate degree nor particularly developed stats knowledge to understand that you cannot base conclusions about biological nature of the human species on the small number of people in a closed community. In fact, you'd only need to survey about 9000 random people (in America) to get a +/- 1% interval 95% of the time that would be representative of the entire population. You aren’t one of those people who think there is no world outside America, are you? What people are presenting on this forum is mostly anecdotal evidence based on their own personal subjective experience. Of course it’s based on their own experiences. Isn’t that the whole point of this forum? People also answer surveys based on their own personal experience – which is again the whole point of surveys. Surveys just go a step further and compile, sort and analyse data. The bottom line is I will never accept that study as the serious evidence of anything. OTOH, I agree with you on some points, including the part that people have a very good reason to lie about the subject. I’m wondering if it’s possible to discuss the subject without relying heavily on that study. I would much rather discuss our own feelings about it. I would like to ask littlepiggy and virginia: What is your reason to be on this forum? Even though you have different opinions, you both seem happy with your own current situation. Neither of you has a problem with this, so I was wondering why the interest in the subject. Is it because of past experiences? iamwhoiam, In essence, what you are saying is that you were always aroused by the naked female body, since adolescence. Once your SO told you she doesn’t like it, you stopped and never got aroused by another woman’s body again. How does that work?? I don’t want to be rude, but that doesn’t sound very convincing. Would you mind explaining that in more details? Question for everyone: I believe that the key point of misunderstanding is that people with this problem do not believe that their SO can love them deeply and sincerely AND still get sexually attracted to other people. Others see no conflict at all. Do you guys think this is right? Or is there something else? Link to post Share on other sites
new_stella Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Sexual fantasies are very disrespectful to the other partner. Are they disrespectful if they are ABOUT your partner? If you fantasize about something unusual, unrealistic, kinky, whatever… with your partner, do you still think it’s not right? Link to post Share on other sites
LucreziaBorgia Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 It is sounding more and more like there is some confusion about sexual fantasies. It seems like people are mistaking basic objective sexual fantasizing with "wanting to cheat" or "being dissatisfied with their partner". Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 new stella said: "I believe that the key point of misunderstanding is that people with this problem do not believe that their SO can love them deeply and sincerely AND still get sexually attracted to other people. Others see no conflict at all. Do you guys think this is right? Or is there something else?" me: Wow, that is a very good question new-stella. Well I only have my own experience to draw on, and while as a hetero woman, I tend to rarely fantasize about men when I am in a relationship, I cannot realistically imagine a man not doing so. Even if he says he doesn't, i think he is just covering up. Ideally, i would like to imagine he only does about me, but in reality I doubt it. I don't think it takes away from me at all. I think it is better if women don't know too much details about the type he is masterbating too, people have to keep some sense of boundaries. It only takes away if you see him rubbernecking girls on the street, staying up late on line, or getting lapdances at clubs. But fantasizing- no. I cannot be "THE THOUGHT POLICE" If anything, he may even do it more because he is getting some and he feels good about himself.....I am not talking about porn or strip clubs here-only fantasizing. But if we are talking about a man staying up until 4AM looking at porn while his wife falls asleep alone, that is different altogether. That is when it is interfering. Rainfall-I don't mean to single you out, but I think there is a HUGE difference between your partner thinking about another while engaged in an intimate act with you VS. masterbatory material. I think as a woman you can sense if your partner is there in the moment with you, what you described as fantasizing IS very disrespectful. If I got the sense my partner was thinking of someone else while in the moment with me- I would be very hurt. I do not think that fantasizing about others necessarily means imagining that you are that "other" when they are with you...it can..but not necessarily. Link to post Share on other sites
littlepiggy1 Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 new_stella, I don't think there is much to discuss further. I'm interested in broad human behavior. That's why I look to things like studies, because I want to know the general trends and norms. I simply want to know what, on average, people are like. And when it comes to sex, there does seem a certain reluctance to acknowledge what is "normal" and what is not, especially if it flies in the face of convention. I think if more people had a realistic view of human sexuality, many of the problems people have in relationships wouldn't be such a big deal. People would be able to have more reasonable expectations. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 It is sounding more and more like there is some confusion about sexual fantasies. It seems like people are mistaking basic objective sexual fantasizing with "wanting to cheat" or "being dissatisfied with their partner". Sexual fantasy about someone besides your partner does mean you are unhappy. Otherwise you would be able to think of them to get turned on you wouldn't need some fake porn person. What could you even get out of thinking about someone esle. How could it even be a turn on..... Link to post Share on other sites
littlepiggy1 Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Sexual fantasy about someone besides your partner does mean you are unhappy. Otherwise you would be able to think of them to get turned on you wouldn't need some fake porn person. What could you even get out of thinking about someone esle. How could it even be a turn on..... The lady doth project too much, methinks. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 The lady doth project too much, methinks. Really how so? Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Are they disrespectful if they are ABOUT your partner? If you fantasize about something unusual, unrealistic, kinky, whatever… with your partner, do you still think it’s not right? If they are about your partner that is different. You are using the person you are in a relationship to get turned on. It becomes disrespectful when you think about some random person besides your partner. If a man chooses to masturbate to naked pictures of his partner then that would be ok however if he chooses porn over the pictures of his partner then that to me would be disrespectful. Link to post Share on other sites
littlepiggy1 Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Really how so? Well, let's see: Sexual fantasy about someone besides your partner does mean you are unhappy. Otherwise you would be able to think of them to get turned on you wouldn't need some fake porn person. What could you even get out of thinking about someone esle. How could it even be a turn on..... You are projecting all of your views onto others and assuming that everyone feels the same way you do. A classic case of projection. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Well, let's see: You are projecting all of your views onto others and assuming that everyone feels the same way you do. A classic case of projection. You are doing the same thing assuming all men have fantasies and think about others. It is your view that it is normal and you refuse to think that even for a second that people could have fantasies because they aren't happy. Link to post Share on other sites
littlepiggy1 Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 You are doing the same thing assuming all men have fantasies and think about others. It is your view that it is normal and you refuse to think that even for a second that people could have fantasies because they aren't happy. No I'm not, because I'm basing my opinions on independent data. Furthermore, I don't think that ALL men do, but most do. And I certainly agree that people could be having fantasies because they are unhappy. But that doesn't mean it's so, unless you have some data to support that. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 No I'm not, because I'm basing my opinions on independent data. Furthermore, I don't think that ALL men do, but most do. And I certainly agree that people could be having fantasies because they are unhappy. But that doesn't mean it's so, unless you have some data to support that. The majority of relationships fail so why do you think that most data supports that people think of others? Maybe there is a connection...... Link to post Share on other sites
littlepiggy1 Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 The majority of relationships fail so why do you think that most data supports that people think of others? Maybe there is a connection...... Maybe there is. But you'd have to find data to support it. FWIW, here's more info from that study: The interaction of gender and prior extradyadic sexual behavior or cheating on the current partner also emerged as a significant predictor in the multiple regression, and is displayed graphically in Figure 2. The percentages of fantasies that involved someone other than their current partner were nearly identical for men (55%) and women (53%) who had cheated on their partner in the past. In contrast, among participants who had not cheated on their current partner, men reported that a significantly larger percentage of their fantasies (54%) were extradyadic in nature as compared to women (30%), t(247) = -5.9, p < .001. In short, the same proportion of men who had cheated on their current partner versus those who hadn't fantasized about others. But for women, if they had cheated they were more likely to have fantasies about others. So maybe we can use it as a predictor of women who cheat? Link to post Share on other sites
LucreziaBorgia Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Sexual fantasy about someone besides your partner does mean you are unhappy. Maybe in your world, but not mine thank G_d. I think "agree to disagree" is where I will end this one. Link to post Share on other sites
iamwhatiam Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Sorry for late reply, but ‘better late than never [FONT=Wingdings][/FONT]’. You struck the point about people being on this forum – I don’t think people are here just for fun - I agree that we are all here because we have some problems we cannot resolve just by ourselves, and I am no exception. My problem is this very thing we are talking about and my SO cannot feel comfortable with my change. To answer your question, I never said I was always aroused by just seeing a naked female body, or I stopped – I jus[FONT=Arial]t said I am not interested anymore in getting aroused the way I used to. Whether it would still happen to me under certain circumstances or not, it is irrelevant, because I am not interested in finding out, as I am quite comfortable with the way I feel now, as my So fills my world completely. That’s my point.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Now, the reason I joined this particular discussion was to show littlepiggy1 (and others, If they are interested) that some men, no matter how few of us there are, could feel differently from what statistics is suggesting. Unfortunately, the whole thread turned into personal accusations, showing-off and, in general, discussions that don’t relate to the subject.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Finnaly, regaring your question to everyone, I agree with you – that seems to be the key point of misunderstanding.[/FONT] Link to post Share on other sites
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