Coffee Date

[ZA Dater]

Of course there is another solution to this, simply get on with life, if I meet someone, then great, if not well, it was not meant to be. 

Overly simplistic I suppose but maybe the way to look at things. I have my hobbies and the things I like, just enjoy those even if I never get to share them, maybe I need to worry more about things I have a degree of control over. Sure, it will always bother me but nothing I can do directly seems to make any difference.

[Trail Blazer]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Who says I am shy? Because I do not find it very interesting to talk about who is doing who, who had who last week, who is breaking up with who, who is trying to charm who, actually I can be quite outgoing when there is actually something to talk about that actually has some relevance to me.

Sure, I am not going to try chat to some stranger, frankly I cant be bothered unless its very apparent she does not have a bf and has some interest but I'd wager you do not go and talk to strangers either.

Fear of rejection, yes there is a very easy solution for that, some success, sitting in some room chatting to someone who cannot relate to me who goes home to their wife/husband of 20 years CANNOT relate to me.

I suppose you think getting no validation is sorted by therapy too?

In what context is this being discussed?  Perhaps I don't get all work places, but I would have thought that most adults are not focused on that sort of behavior/culture once they've left college and are trying to forge a career in their professional life.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 Oddly enough I do not know many of those

Yes, as many has stated, you’re not surrounding yourself with “your tribe.” And you’ve mistakenly extrapolated that those players are the rule and you’re the exception. Considering most men are married and have children, I’d say you’ve got it wrong. At minimum relationship oriented men are about at an equal proportion to player / casual type men. But more likely there are more relationship type men. 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Fear of rejection, yes there is a very easy solution for that, some success,

Nope, wrong again. Being confident, which means you’re not invested in whether or not someone likes you, is the solution. 

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I suppose you think getting no validation is sorted by therapy too?

You don’t need validation. You have to stop caring about whether or not people “validate” you. And yes, getting to that mindset will likely take therapy.

 

Alternatively, you might be able to do it by making a major life change like moving to a different country. Move and be yourself right from the start and suddenly you lose the baggage of the character you feel you needed to play to fit in where you are. Be yourself and seek your tribe. But you don’t have any interest in moving (despite your constant negativity about South Africa), do therapy  it is.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Nope, wrong again. Being confident, which means you’re not invested in whether or not someone likes you, is the solution. 

 

You don’t need validation. You have to stop caring about whether or not people “validate” you. And yes, getting to that mindset will likely take therapy.

 

Alternatively, you might be able to do it by making a major life change like moving to a different country. Move and be yourself right from the start and suddenly you lose the baggage of the character you feel you needed to play to fit in where you are. Be yourself and seek your tribe. But you don’t have any interest in moving (despite your constant negativity about South Africa), do therapy  it is.

Thanks, I'll pass.

 

[SumGuy]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

The vast majority of “non player” relationship oriented guys also have far greater success than you. 

I consider myself a "non-player" guy (heck based on some things have seen on LS my lack of fear in communicating and following up and reaching out should have put me into the needy friend zone so many times) and I have far, far more success than the player guys I know or have known...especially when know the true facts of their life.  Player guys exaggerate like no tomorrow.

Edited May 31, 2021 by SumGuy

[ZA Dater]

16 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

In what context is this being discussed?  Perhaps I don't get all work places, but I would have thought that most adults are not focused on that sort of behavior/culture once they've left college and are trying to forge a career in their professional life.

I work from home now. My best friend, for him and his friends, all of which are older than me this is quite normal, very normal. All professionals and unsurprisingly none really battle for attention, be it waitresses or whoever, they get attention and plenty of it.

[SumGuy]

8 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Nope, wrong again. Being confident, which means you’re not invested in whether or not someone likes you, is the solution. ....

You don’t need validation. You have to stop caring about whether or not people “validate” you.

@ZA Dater   These are important and part of what I view as a healthy form of interaction.  On the first, not saying don't care if you come across as a jerk or not, rather a woman rejecting you should not shake you...at most it says she is not interested in you that way, now...it does not define your worth.    Also not saying it will not bum you out, but take it with aplomb.

Likewise, seeking validation through others is not good.  You have so many qualities about yourself that validate you.

Agree though that letting fear of rejection drive you and seeking validation from others are two mindsets that do not help.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

I consider myself a "non-player" guy (heck based on some things have seen on LS my lack of fear in communicating and following up and reaching out should have put me into the needy friend zone so many times) I and have far, far more success than the player guys I know or have known...especially when know the true facts of their life.  Player guys exaggerate like no tomorrow.

Sure, I have no doubt it would be possible to compete and maybe win but you would then need to take the good parts of the player tactic and none of the bad which I guess could work IF you have the same sort of attributes as those guys. Unfortunately there is little exaggeration going on here and I have seen this before, for a time I used to go to bars and clubs with these guys and I saw the same thing there and when I did sometimes try to chat to someone I got the cold shoulder which fostered this "I do not give a f" indifferent attitude.

For example one of  them took up yoga, "the chicks are hot there man", for me this seems pretty ridiculous but I can understand why it can work. Equally I can understand why women love the level of flirting and attention/validation provided by players, I have had some ladies be very nice to me in the friend zone and it did feel nice.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, SumGuy said:

@ZA Dater   These are important and part of what I view as a healthy form of interaction.  On the first, not saying don't care if you come across as a jerk or not, rather a woman rejecting you should not shake you...at most it says she is not interested in you that way, now...it does not define your worth.    Also not saying it will not bum you out, but take it with aplomb.

Likewise, seeking validation through others is not good.  You have so many qualities about yourself that validate you.

Agree though that letting fear of rejection drive you and seeking validation from others are two mindsets that do not help.

Well try live in a life where compliments are rare, attention even rare and then see how you would feel about that. I stopped letting women define my worth a long time ago, it was senseless in the extreme but every time I try I get the same smack the side of the face so after a while it starts to hurt, I walk around each day carrying this with me and most people have no idea, I fill my life with other seemingly impossible objectives so I keep my mind busy or as busy as possible. 

No I simply want some success now, rejection, I have had enough of it not to go seeking it out. If I could for once chalk up one win I know my mindset could carry that positivity forward because everything else in my life is like that, keep trying, keep improving till you get it right, get it right once and carry that self belief forward to the next task.

[Trail Blazer]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well try live in a life where compliments are rare, attention even rare and then see how you would feel about that. I stopped letting women define my worth a long time ago, it was senseless in the extreme but every time I try I get the same smack the side of the face so after a while it starts to hurt, I walk around each day carrying this with me and most people have no idea, I fill my life with other seemingly impossible objectives so I keep my mind busy or as busy as possible. 

No I simply want some success now, rejection, I have had enough of it not to go seeking it out. If I could for once chalk up one win I know my mindset could carry that positivity forward because everything else in my life is like that, keep trying, keep improving till you get it right, get it right once and carry that self belief forward to the next task.

You are your own worst enemy.  You're only attracted to women who are unobtainable.  A different person in your body would be married and have had kids by now, if he wanted to...

Your current plight has nothing to do with what you look like.  You are just unreasonably fussy when it comes to looks, yet ironically you decry women who reject you on the basis of superficiality.

[SumGuy]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure, I have no doubt it would be possible to compete and maybe win but you would then need to take the good parts of the player tactic and none of the bad which I guess could work IF you have the same sort of attributes as those guys. ......

Think may have to understand what you consider player tactics.  I will agree that players are about tactics and creating a feeling that this is more than a ONS type thing.  Also there are women who don't want more than ONS or FWB so successful and honest "players" seek like.

You are just wrong outside that context.  I am not Mr. 6 pack or Ferrari.   Sex with hot women who engage my mind is easy to find...and I prefer exclusivity and a relationship...for so many reasons.   I've found my dream, so off the market.  In the end it worked but the journey was also fine and really no other way to get to the goal.

Now the attributes of being personable and being able to connect are the real deal when done with genuine intent, players just pretend.  I'd say few women after a certain age or with anything together fall for the player game, they can sense and ferret out the real deal. 

Mr. Players "success" is also transitory...their sex lives are lame in my view (less overall, less "intense", except for them newness is everything so to each their own, and the tend to think they are far better in bed than they are) and they get none of the other intimacy of a relationship...yet  this kind of "shallow" existence is what they are comfortable with...that other intimacy tends to freak them out.   Don't envy the players.

Of course you are going to see every player success (and they spin things), the attention is half of what gets them off in my view (male and female versions). 

People following the real deal, the depths of their success and personal relationships is no one else's business; and it is not put on display intentionally.

[elaine567]

How on earth can you win, when you know you can't flirt, you can't show romantic interest, you can't kiss, you can't escalate...
All you can offer is platonic friendship.
None of the top tier women you covet will put up with that in a partner.
Until you learn your craft, you will never win...

 

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

You are your own worst enemy.  You're only attracted to women who are unobtainable.  A different person in your body would be married and have had kids by now, if he wanted to...

Your current plight has nothing to do with what you look like.  You are just unreasonably fussy when it comes to looks, yet ironically you decry women who reject you on the basis of superficiality.

No I fully accept the fact that its all about superficial, lets not even pretend that does not exist or is irrelevant. Yeah the different person who would he be married to.....we can guess all we want.

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Think may have to understand what you consider player tactics.  I will agree that players are about tactics and creating a feeling that this is more than a ONS type thing.  Also there are women who don't want more than ONS or FWB so successful and honest "players" seek like.

You are just wrong outside that context.  I am not Mr. 6 pack or Ferrari.   Sex with hot women who engage my mind is easy to find...and I prefer exclusivity and a relationship...for so many reasons.   I've found my dream, so off the market.  In the end it worked but the journey was also fine and really no other way to get to the goal.

Now the attributes of being personable and being able to connect are the real deal when done with genuine intent, players just pretend.  I'd say few women after a certain age or with anything together fall for the player game, they can sense and ferret out the real deal. 

Mr. Players "success" is also transitory...their sex lives are lame in my view (less overall, less "intense", except for them newness is everything so to each their own, and the tend to think they are far better in bed than they are) and they get none of the other intimacy of a relationship...yet  this kind of "shallow" existence is what they are comfortable with...that other intimacy tends to freak them out.   Don't envy the players.

Of course you are going to see every player success (and they spin things), the attention is half of what gets them off in my view (male and female versions). 

People following the real deal, the depths of their success and personal relationships is no one else's business; and it is not put on display intentionally.

Lots of sense and truth here and I'd like to agree that a lot of the show off is what they like, quite why they show off to me is just plain weird when this friend of mine knows my story very well, cant say he has ever provided much substantial help either. The problem is I do genuinely try with people I do find attractive and who I think I might be reasonably compatible with but you know I sometimes wonder if the fake interest is not the better interest because they all seem to love that more. I have lost out enough times and when I look at who I lost to, I simply cannot fathom.

I think any sort of attention from someone you find attractive must be preferred to no attention of attention from people you find unattractive. The last line is very profound.

[dramafreezone]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Fear of rejection, yes there is a very easy solution for that, some success,

 

Fear of rejection will always be there.  There should be no expectation that it will ever go away.  Who doesn't fear being humiliated?

I listen to the boxing trainer Teddy Atlas because he's somewhat of a philosopher.  He says fear is like fire.  If you harness it it can cook for you, warm you, light your house.  If you don't harness it, it can burn you, destroy your life.  Instead of harnessing fear, you let it destroy your life.  

No great fighter does what he does because he lacks fear.  He succeds because he used fear as a means to help him prepare meticulously.  Those that have done well with women don't do well because they have no fear, it's because they had fear and used it as motivation to prepare themselves better.

Only you know when this started in your life, but once you give yourself a way out of things when adversity arises, that's a hard habit to break.

Edited May 31, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Trail Blazer]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

No I fully accept the fact that its all about superficial, lets not even pretend that does not exist or is irrelevant. Yeah the different person who would he be married to.....we can guess all we want.

It's not superficial to seek one's equal.  You've never sought your equal.  If you did, you'd change your approach to everything.  Right now you're content on never succeeding so then you can wallow in your self-loathing.

I guarantee you a different person in your body would be dating or married to their equal (or even better) because I've seen guys a lot uglier than you with girlfriends and I've also seen many average looking guys with hot wives or girlfriends.

You are just who you are and there's seemingly nothing that will change that.  You are not defined by your looks, yet for some reason you think your looks define you when they don't at all.  Only you define you.

[Happy Lemming]

Fear is something you can overcome, one step at a time.  So a woman rejects you, what is the worse thing that is going to happen??  Tell me... because I've been rejected more times than I can count and nothing horrific happened to me, I just moved on to the next woman.  Worst case scenario... she is rude in her rejection.  OK... who cares.

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words shall never hurt me" -  Alexander William Kinglake

You conquer this fear one step at a time.  You can do it.

Many years ago, I fell off a roof while working on it.  I didn't get hurt, but I was really scared to climb a ladder again.  I hired someone to finish that particular roof.

As time passed, my fear started to become a problem. So (one day) I set up a ladder and went up it one rung at a time. Slowly, but surely I reached the top.  I literally faced that fear one step at a time.  When the time came to go up on the next roof, no problem... set up the ladder and go right up on it.

The thing with fears, once you face them... you take away their power. You win!!

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Thanks, I'll pass.

 

Of course you’ll pass. You’ll pass on pretty much everything that could garner you success. And I’m not talking about dating women you’re not attracted to or being someone you’re not.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Happy Lemming said:

Fear is something you can overcome, one step at a time.  So a woman rejects you, what is the worse thing that is going to happen??  Tell me... because I've been rejected more times than I can count and nothing horrific happened to me, I just moved on to the next woman.  Worst case scenario... she is rude in her rejection.  OK... who cares.

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words shall never hurt me" -  Alexander William Kinglake

You conquer this fear one step at a time.  You can do it.

Many years ago, I fell off a roof while working on it.  I didn't get hurt, but I was really scared to climb a ladder again.  I hired someone to finish that particular roof.

As time passed, my fear started to become a problem. So (one day) I set up a ladder and went up it one rung at a time. Slowly, but surely I reached the top.  I literally faced that fear one step at a time.  When the time came to go up on the next roof, no problem... set up the ladder and go right up on it.

The thing with fears, once you face them... you take away their power. You win!!

I really do not know where this fear story actually even comes from. Point being why go taking risks on people I do not find attractive, its like throwing all you money on 27 red and hoping for the best, its a reckless risk which cannot be mitigated by knowledge. I am one of the least emotional people around, I am that because well time toughens one up quite a lot and so does rejection so yes I harnessed the good in rejection and used it to improve and take a somewhat more cynical approach to how I view dating.

I agree the best way after a fall is to climb back up and fight on but there needs to be a realistic prospect of a win, else the fight itself is totally pointless. I do not have an issue with rejection more than there is never any decent feedback to be had so its easy to just carry on and on with never actually making any improvements but you know what nobody apparently requires any sort of critique and woe be any women who suddenly needs to justify a decision, oh not that is not the done thing. 

Its more rewarding honestly to keep trying at things where I can see measurable improvements, here with dating I might as well be walking around a dark cave.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

It's not superficial to seek one's equal.  You've never sought your equal.  If you did, you'd change your approach to everything.  Right now you're content on never succeeding so then you can wallow in your self-loathing.

I guarantee you a different person in your body would be dating or married to their equal (or even better) because I've seen guys a lot uglier than you with girlfriends and I've also seen many average looking guys with hot wives or girlfriends.

You are just who you are and there's seemingly nothing that will change that.  You are not defined by your looks, yet for some reason you think your looks define you when they don't at all.  Only you define you.

Equal as defined by who and what? Please I'd be fascinated in this, I'd hardly say I am content but a lot more content than having to sit at a dinner with someone I do not really find attractive but am forced to date because apparently she is defined by societal standard as my equal. 

Who would they be marrying? This is a patently ridiculous discussion but humour me here, these guys like, please tell me about their partners, I'd be fascinated to know. 

Looks do define me because if they did not I would not be getting endless matches who are NOT my equal looks wise. 

I can sit down and out debate many people, does that get me a date, of course not but the loud fun flirty guy can say whatever and he has the date so you know what there is a point where I simply concede what I have has no value and what I deem to be of no value has maximum value. Which is fine, really it is. You right I define me and by that I can choose to simply be me and not some caricature (use that word on a date at your peril) of what people apparently want everyone to be.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

Fear of rejection will always be there.  There should be no expectation that it will ever go away.  Who doesn't fear being humiliated?

I listen to the boxing trainer Teddy Atlas because he's somewhat of a philosopher.  He says fear is like fire.  If you harness it it can cook for you, warm you, light your house.  If you don't harness it, it can burn you, destroy your life.  Instead of harnessing fear, you let it destroy your life.  

No great fighter does what he does because he lacks fear.  He succeds because he used fear as a means to help him prepare meticulously.  Those that have done well with women don't do well because they have no fear, it's because they had fear and used it as motivation to prepare themselves better.

Only you know when this started in your life, but once you give yourself a way out of things when adversity arises, that's a hard habit to break.

I pick my battles carefully and I might get a bloody noise but I also make up ground too and frankly I have had to fight for every single thing, nothing has come easily at all, people told me when I was growing up I could not do this, other kids mocked me and teased me because I was not like them because I challenged them and you know what for a time girls found that pretty attractive and I had lots of attention from pretty good looking ones too. But when you walk your own path its a lonely road, who wants to go left when everyone else goes right, I made a decision to do life my way and live it the way I want to live it. At the forefront of that is being forthright and standing up for those who get treated badly, teach those who have not had the opportunities I have had AND ALWAYS put myself in the shoes of the person in front of me.

I am sorry this does not sit well in the dating world but it is my life and I refuse to compromise the basic elements of it on the HOPE that maybe someone might like a version of me who walks right with everyone else. 

You know that first paragraph I have used elements of it on dates before and as soon as you start challenging any sort of convention you might as well pack up and go home right there and then, VERY seldom do people actually appreciate me for me, rather its always I must bend over backward to conform to whatever it is the deem I should be.

I can tell you this a more loyal person that me you will struggle to find and I will walk the extra mile for others but you know I have learnt that dating is not about any of those things, its about how fun you are, its one way traffic where the guy must literally do everything, she turns up, hopefully looking pretty but by no means an assured and he must sell himself, sorry flirt like a used car dealer trying to close a deal at the end of the month, she is vitally interested in his social circle because well she need to ensure it elevates her or is consistent with her own, she needs to measure him against her friend partners because well the approval of friends is vital. Absolutely nothing he does can make up for a lack of flirting or seduction, at no point is any slack given for non compliance, mostly he is expected to lead all conversation, it is expected she never asks him anything about himself, I mean why would she do that, for what purpose, he is the man he must do everything on the date. He will hopefully walk her to her car where he then needs to decide how receptive she is to a kiss, assuming he finds her attractive, he then needs to guess because, well I mean its up to the man again to lead and do everything.

You all seem to think I do go out there and try, I do and I have, MANY times and I do not mind rejection, I know its an almost certainty from the moment I sit down which is why unless the person really is someone I like I cant be bothered to expose myself to more of something which is totally pointless and offers no value and no learning opportunity at all.

[ZA Dater]

I do not resent players for what its worth, I understand why the play the system the way they do, it works for them, they get the attention they want, they get to spin nonsense they get the sex they want and they move on without having to add any value at all. Sometimes I wish I was like them purely because it must be nice to get some attention and be wanted but then I realise I have none of their attributes.

I go out to try keep fit and lean and I make sure I keep up to date with what is going on around me, my inherent mantra is to try do something good each day of the benefit of someone else. Spending time with A everything that was good about me worked in that situation, I could just be me and it worked, I got lots of attention back, far more intellectual stimulation that I had before and you know what most days I get someone asking me how my day is going and sharing what they are up to. That situation proved I can actually be a person of use if not one of attraction as has always been the case really, its telling at social events the other guys get hugged and ladies shake my hand, that does not go unnoticed and that tells me a lot.

My dating goals are

1: Find someone who I find really attractive on all levels, which according to this forum is impossible.

2: Try and get some sort of a win out the situation

3: Maybe actually get kissed properly 

That is all I am really looking for. A, K and a few others just fill some of the void of what I do not have and I am thankful they at least see some good in me. 

[Happy Lemming]

@ZA Dater I had asked a few pages back if "Speed Dating" was in your area??  I wasn't thinking of it as a way to actually meet a woman, but more of practice talking and conversing with women.  Hopefully making your next "in person" date easier and more comfortable, thus you may have a better chance at a successful outcome.

I know there is a small fee to go to a "Speed Dating" event, but here in the US it is quite small. 

For you, I thought it might be more of a learning experience...  and the cost would be similar to tuition. 

[Trail Blazer]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Equal as defined by who and what? Please I'd be fascinated in this, I'd hardly say I am content but a lot more content than having to sit at a dinner with someone I do not really find attractive but am forced to date because apparently she is defined by societal standard as my equal. 

When people seek their equal, they don't "shoot for the stars" so to speak, they just seek someone with whom they do not feel like they're compromising to be with.  When both people feel the same way, they reach what I'd describe as a dating equilibrium.

Why you find this concept so challenging to grasp is, quite frankly, beyond me. 

There is something about you which women who are your equal find off-putting in real life.  That may not be fair because you could very well be a good person, but at the same time, women need more than just equal looks if they're going to see a future with you. 

Either that, or you simply dismiss your equal as being not worthy because you have an inflated ego, delusions of grandeur or any number of factors which may preclude you from being attracted to your equal.

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Who would they be marrying? This is a patently ridiculous discussion but humour me here, these guys like, please tell me about their partners, I'd be fascinated to know. 

I'll use my girlfriend's best friend and her husband as an example. 

In the objective looks department, I'd say she's slightly better looking than he.  He's by no means ugly, however he's just your run-of-the-mill guy.  He's late-thirties, receding hairline, but keeps himself in good shape, dresses sharply and is always well-groomed.

She doesn't have an exceptionally beautiful face herself, but she is moderately pretty.  But as a mom-of-two (and prior to conceiving), she keeps herself in excellent shape.  She's incredibly fit and was quite the athlete back in high school from what I've been told.

However, together they form a formidable couple.  Both are extremely intelligent and very successful in their chosen fields.  Both have a certain style and elegance to them which compliments one another. 

They're equals in all objective metrics and neither (to the best of my knowledge) would feel like they're being compromised with each other.

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Looks do define me because if they did not I would not be getting endless matches who are NOT my equal looks wise. 

Just going on your grainy image, you are by no means ugly.  Perhaps you're just a run-of-the-mill guy like the husband of my girlfriend's bestie, but that didn't preclude him from landing an attractive lady.

The problem with swipey dating apps has been discussed to death.  The way they work creates an distorted perception about who or what is equal in terms of looks because of the unequal distribution between the sexes. 

Women are outnumbered by men up to seven-to-one according to some sources online.  With a ratio so skewed in favor of women, it's hardly surprising to her that the "80:20" rule of thumb is so prevalent on swipey dating apps.

In the case of the couple I've described above, though, they did happen to meet on-line, but not on a dating app.  They met in 2010 on RSVP.  As most people know, RSVP favors a whole range of factors, with looks being only part of the equation.

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I can sit down and out debate many people, does that get me a date, of course not but the loud fun flirty guy can say whatever and he has the date so you know what there is a point where I simply concede what I have has no value and what I deem to be of no value has maximum value. Which is fine, really it is. You right I define me and by that I can choose to simply be me and not some caricature (use that word on a date at your peril) of what people apparently want everyone to be.

Dude, I can debate as well, but so what?  Who wants to debate on a first date?  The "loud, fun, flirty guy" got the date because he is fun and that's precisely what women want on a first date.

You have zero understanding about how women work, what triggers their emotional responses, etc.  You keep going on about looks and refusing to hear anyone out when at the same time you can't fathom why a guy who is funny and light-hearted secures a second date.

You seen to think that guys who have emotional intelligence and know how to talk to women in ways which triggers positive emotional responses are some kind of a charlatan.  It just goes to show how off-base you are with some of your beliefs.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Trail Blazer