Coffee Date

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Take "wealthy" out of the equation and basically he has the ability/skill set to capture the interest of these desirable women, you seek.

So why don't you ask him for assistance in teaching you how to be "like him"... more outgoing... being fun... etc.  I'm not saying you have to become a "player" but surely you can learn something from him to peek the interest of the women you want to date.

No the wealthy part is pretty integral. He and I are very different, he drinks, I do not, he is outgoing, I am not. 

The point is you simply cannot write out looks and wealth. 

[ZA Dater]

Just now, dramafreezone said:

Why do you think they go all out to be the best versions of themselves?  It's because without doing that they don't feel confident.  They don't just wake up confident, they have to work at it.

You don't see these women when they wake up in the morning without makeup, when they get on a scale and they've gained a couple of pounds.  You don't see them on their normal or bad days.

We've created a society where women are primarily judged for their looks.  Do you understand how incredibly tough that can be?  No matter how great a woman looks, many of them harbor a deep seeded feeling that they're not pretty enough, that there's always someone prettier.  Also, looks fade, so some know that attention they're garnering will be gone one day if they don't have more to rely on than their looks.

It's also why many of them have all of their instagram followers.  Many of them NEED those followers to feel good about themselves.  Why do you think many of them post photos of them drinking a vanilla latte, or laying out by the pool?  It's to get validation that they've still are seen as attractive.  Every like that they get is validation, so they keep doing it because without it, they don't feel good about themselves.  When a person (man or woman) believes they're judged primarily for their looks, it's never ending work to make themselves feel good and get that validation.

Like usual, you see the shine but not the grind.  You see confident women but you don't see how much work goes into maintaing that air of confidence.  They work hard at it, it's not effortless like you think it is.

Do you not need validation? Does it not feel nice when someone compliments you (I would not know because I cannot remember when last I was complimented on anything on a date) Actually I have seen them without make up, I have seen them on good, bad and normal days. 

If we as people get validated we become more confident, the same applies to success, success often begets success. Yes we have also created a society where men are judged on experience and macho. 

I'd like some validation in life, I actually got a lot from A, what she did for me was more than anyone else has ever bothered to do so again I look at that and I look at these dates and its really difficult to see what dating has which is so fantastic....of course I was always going to get a more subtle kick around the face because she knows the history.

 

[dramafreezone]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Do you not need validation? Does it not feel nice when someone compliments you (I would not know because I cannot remember when last I was complimented on anything on a date) Actually I have seen them without make up, I have seen them on good, bad and normal days. 

If we as people get validated we become more confident, the same applies to success, success often begets success. Yes we have also created a society where men are judged on experience and macho. 

I'd like some validation in life, I actually got a lot from A, what she did for me was more than anyone else has ever bothered to do so again I look at that and I look at these dates and its really difficult to see what dating has which is so fantastic....of course I was always going to get a more subtle kick around the face because she knows the history.

 

Of course I do.  Part of the reason I like to wear nice clothes, wear cologne is because I feel better when I think I look good, but also I get validation when a woman says "I like your shoes" or "I like your cologne."   That's part of how women communicate attraction to you, through compliments on your appearance.  It's a conversation starter, and best part is they're the ones starting it.  Moreover, every single compliement is additional evidence that you are seen as attractive.  Someone went out of their way to make you feel good about yourself.  By being the best verision of yourself, you maximize your chances of being viable to the most women.

You have it backwards though, you have to do the self improvement first to get the compliments.  Not for a day, not for a month, but as a permanent lifestyle.

Edited May 30, 2021 by dramafreezone

[elaine567]

The reality is that most men will not have ever to compete with these, fun, wealthy, good looking, charming, player type guys because they would not be competing for the same women.
The model types, the vacuous, the superficial, the naïve and the gullible who are the prey of player types are not what many men are looking for in a partner.  Even your player would pass these girls by if he was ever thinking of settling down. 
Unfortunately you instead of looking for partner material are swayed by looks and superficiality almost to the exclusion of all else.
Because you want these women you are up in direct competition with the "professional" player types and you will ALWAYS lose out.
"A" did not go "Oh ZA is such a great guy I will give him a chance"
NO, she headed straight for the wealthy good looking guy as would be predicted... and she always will.
 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

Of course I do.  Part of the reason I like to wear nice clothes, wear cologne is because I feel better when I think I look good, but also I get validation when a woman says "I like your shoes" or "I like your cologne."   That's part of how women communicate attraction to you, through compliments on your appearance.  It's a conversation starter, and best part is they're the ones starting it.  By being the best verision of yourself, you maximize your chances of being viable to the most women.

You have it backwards though, you have to do the self improvement first to get the compliments.  Not for a day, not for a month, but as a permanent lifestyle.

Been there done that, makeover after makeover and I can honestly say I have never been complimented even once. HOWEVER I am glad that you do get complimented so at least I know that some people do experience what I THINK should be how things should work in theory. 

I train each day not for validation but because it focuses my mind.

[dramafreezone]

I would then say you need to see a stylist.  I don't really see this as possible for you to be very well dressed and not receive compliments.  So few people in general know how to dress to their strengths that if you were to get a stylist you would stand out without an issue. 

How many tailored suits do you own?  How many watches?  I'm guessing none.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The reality is that most men will not have ever to compete with these, fun, wealthy, good looking, charming, player type guys because they would not be competing for the same women.
The model types, the vacuous, the superficial, the naïve and the gullible who are the prey of player types are not what many men are looking for in a partner.  Even your player would pass these girls by if he was ever thinking of settling down. 
Unfortunately you instead of looking for partner material are swayed by looks and superficiality almost to the exclusion of all else.
Because you want these women you are up in direct competition with the "professional" player types and you will ALWAYS lose out.
"A" did not go "Oh ZA is such a great guy I will give him a chance"
NO, she headed straight for the wealthy good looking guy as would be predicted... and she always will.
 

A is actually compatible with me from a lifestyle point of view, again I do not get that very often. I disagree they are competing for exactly the same women, much like you say A will predictable go for that type women are more likely go for my player friend than me. 

Looks do count and no they do not count to the exclusion of all else I do however know there are people who are attractive to me and have other great attributes to. The bold is exactly the problem with dating. Over 90% of the dates I have been on were "well let me give her a chance" type dates, just think about that for a minute....the reverse is of course never true.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, dramafreezone said:

I would then say you need to see a stylist.  I don't really see this as possible for you to be very well dressed and not receive compliments.  So few people in general know how to dress to their strengths that if you were to get a stylist you would stand out without an issue. 

How many tailored suits do you own?  How many watches?  I'm guessing none.

I actually have a trio of high end watches for what its worth. Odd every makeover I have had, who has been advising, a model...odd that. I cannot stand tailored suits and frankly almost nobody in SA wears them as casual dress. I am golf shirt type of guy for the most part. Like you I wear what makes me feel good but it provides not validation whatsoever. 

Again you need to understand what the end game is for me, SOME success to try and actually move forward and derive more success. Probably the one thing I am admired for is selflessness, I am always the first to volunteer to help someone, the one people rely on but again that is useless from a dating point view, player can arrive 30 min late and all it perfectly fine because well he oozes sex appeal whereas I ooze no appeal at all, irrespective how I dress. I get no compliments in general, I just accept that as a function of being wholly unappealing. 

[dramafreezone]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I cannot stand tailored suits and frankly almost nobody in SA wears them as casual dress. I am golf shirt type of guy for the most part. Like you I wear what makes me feel good but it provides not validation whatsoever. 

Again you need to understand what the end game is for me, SOME success to try and actually move forward and derive more success. Probably the one thing I am admired for is selflessness, I am always the first to volunteer to help someone, the one people rely on but again that is useless from a dating point view, player can arrive 30 min late and all it perfectly fine because well he oozes sex appeal whereas I ooze no appeal at all, irrespective how I dress. I get no compliments in general, I just accept that as a function of being wholly unappealing. 

What better way to stand out than to do what no one else is doing?  Learn to love looking great.  I go to work with a nice collared shirt, pants, a nice belt, watch and brown oxfords, while every other guy is wearing jeans and sneakers.  An upscale wardrobe is an implicit comment that you carry a higher standard for yourself and others.  People that want to be better are naturally drawn to others that want to be better.

You poll 100 women and I believe the majority of them are going to say a tailored suit on a man raises his sex appeal.

Edited May 30, 2021 by dramafreezone

[elaine567]

13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

A will predictable go for that type women are more likely go for my player friend than me

Not "women", but a certain type of woman, some woman would not go near your player friend with a barge pole.
 

[Prudence V]

46 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Not "women", but a certain type of woman, some woman would not go near your player friend with a barge pole.
 

No woman of substance, IME, would find that at all attractive... unless for a quick and meaningless hookup. 
 

But then “women of substance” aren’t ZAD’s target. He seems to prefer the performative types - everything on the surface, nice and glossy, but not much else beyond that. 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, jspice said:

I am South African. I’m from his city. 
He has plenty of choices who are NOT on Tinder. 
If he were merely looking for “middle class” he would find it. 

Agreed. Just indicating that the women that swipe right on him on Tinder are not reflective of his attractiveness level. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Over 90% of the dates I have been on were "well let me give her a chance" type dates, just think about that for a minute....the reverse is of course never true.

You don’t think the woman who you matched with to start this thread wasn’t a woman that was giving you a chance?

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 he is outgoing, I am not.

Which is exactly something he could teach you...

Your friend learned how to be outgoing, maybe he'd be willing to give you a few pointers.

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Over 90% of the dates I have been on were "well let me give her a chance" type dates, just think about that for a minute....the reverse is of course never true.

Are  not all the women who agree to go on a date with you giving you a chance? No?

[dramafreezone]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Over 90% of the dates I have been on were "well let me give her a chance" type dates, just think about that for a minute....the reverse is of course never true.

 

This is malarkey.

Sure there are some women that go out for a free date but most times they aren't spending their time with someone they see no possibilities with.  You just say that so you don't have to take ownership of the fact that you've had opportunities and blown them.

[Not So Sad II]

On 5/29/2021 at 1:03 PM, ZA Dater said:

Do something I enjoy doing which is window shopping. I don't have the benefit of experience but that does not mean I can't window shop. The advice here is solid and if I were advising myself based on what's been presented I'd simply tell myself to do something else and write the idea off. 

I am told league's exist so I am pretty much stuck with what I do not want so it pretty difficult to get motivated about that. If I cant get what I want then nothing else will really satisfy that want so.

Theres nothing wrong with being selective.  Its better than having the morals of a sewer rat.  But when you're young, you have sort of temporary experiences where you both know that its not likely to be permanent.  Didn't you have those sort of experiences in your twenties?

And a lot of women have a radar that picks up on red flags, honed from experience they and their friends have of being burned by player type guys.

For me, those red flags include a history of online dating, talking too much and too much posting on social media.  A lot of women just aren't doing online dating any more, it seems more and more to attract a certain kind of person and I often wonder if it damages peoples' perceptions of relationships.  So I rule out any man with a history of online dating.

Although actually in my city, men seem to prefer the plain Jane, homemaker types and then try to flirt with the more conventionally attractive women.  One of my friends actually got dumped for..."not being plain enough"!

The other thing is, you come across as so intense and having no sense of humour or perspective, and frankly a bit scary.  I agree with a previous poster that CBT would be a good idea because your thinking is all off.  Its so negative.  I would struggle to spend 15 minutes in the company of someone so unrelentingly negative who talks so much about dating.

Men get rejected all the time (women get rejected plenty of times too) but like any rejection in life, you have to learn to shrug it off and try again.  

 

 

[Happy Lemming]

@ZA Dater Quick Question...

Do they have "Speed Dating" in your area??  Have you ever tried it??

[Weezy1973]

16 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

That's what it takes. Learn to be more outgoing. Have a drink or two. It works.

I don’t think this actually would work. It would be turning @ZA Dater into someone he’s not. He’s not outgoing and he doesn’t drink. What would work for him is to find people more like himself, but unfortunately he doesn’t have any desire to get out of his comfort zone and do new things where he could find people more like himself.

 

Instead he insists on continuing to hang out in a circle where he doesn’t share the values with the people in it. Again his fear is keeping him from succeeding. And instead of acknowledging the fear, he spins tales and makes excuses. 

[Trail Blazer]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:26 PM, ZA Dater said:

I know what I want, its really that simple. How to get it is less simple and probably impossible but again that is part of the attraction.

You're attracted to the unobtainable?  Or are you just deliberately reaching because deep down you're too scared to be vulnerable?

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

This is malarkey.

Sure there are some women that go out for a free date but most times they aren't spending their time with someone they see no possibilities with.  You just say that so you don't have to take ownership of the fact that you've had opportunities and blown them.

No, most of the people I have been out with did not interest me at all, I'd guess I interested them far more than the reverse. I went because in some instances I had nothing better to do, in others I simply wanted to take a "well its a numbers game" and gamble that maybe in person over the course of a conversation the person might seem more attractive, I gave them the benefit of the doubt really. 

K and A are the only two opportunities I legitimately regret and perhaps one other. 

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You don’t think the woman who you matched with to start this thread wasn’t a woman that was giving you a chance?

Wow...one in 20 years. Fantastic ROI that. Sorry I am being sarcastic. 

[Prudence V]

6 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

He’s not outgoing and he doesn’t drink. What would work for him is to find people more like himself, but unfortunately he doesn’t have any desire to get out of his comfort zone and do new things where he could find people more like himself.

I know loads of people who are not outgoing, many of whom don’t drink at all (others drink a small amount, socially - but it’s not imperative to having a good time) who have no problem finding dates or longer-term partners, *in OP’s city*. I strongly suspect OP is neurodivergent - and there is a strong, supportive neurodivergent community there too, most of whom would fit the values and interests OP describes. And, guess what - mostly they’re not overweight, not single parents, not “unattractive”. They’re out there, having fun, enjoying life in one of the best cities in the world for people who have material resources. 
 

But, they’re not models. So OP wouldn’t be interested. They are mostly ordinary people who work in ordinary jobs, who are not impressed by flashy lifestyles or shallow values. They’re passionate about their work, their friends, their hobbies, and they’re not all over social media showing off their lifestyle or their latest arm candy. They’re the sort of people OP could really feel at home among, a “tribe”, but because they don’t earn a living using their looks to market products, OP wouldn’t want to. OP prefers to hang about on the fringes of a group of superficial glitz *while decrying superficiality* in case - horror of horrors - he encounters someone overweight. 
 

 

[elaine567]

6 hours ago, enigma32 said:

@Weezy1973yeah, it might be too much for him but people can learn and grow. I wasn't an outgoing child but I grew to be more outgoing as I got older and learned what worked. I don't think that sort of thing changes who someone is as a person, it's just another skill you can learn. 

I agree it is a skill that can be learned if one wants to.
Alcohol greases the wheels, in moderation it turns staid events and meetings into fun.
It relaxes the stressed and uptight and makes awkward situations between strangers easier and allows flow instead of stasis.
I am not suggesting six pints and a boozy session, but a glass or two of some nice wine would definitely help, as it does for so many on the dating scene.
ZA Dater has so many rigid inflexible stances including one on alcohol, but few of them seem to improve his lot in life. 

[elaine567]

7 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

OP prefers to hang about on the fringes of a group of superficial glitz

^^^ this.
He wants to land the flashy model to impress his friends. 
That is his inner challenge and why normal, ordinary women will never do.
He NEEDS the eye candy, extrovert, exciting girl to elevate his position in the group.