Getting cold and disrespectful to get me to break up first? **Updated**

[RecentChange]

OP, I know I tend to be overly blunt, so I will attempt to temper my response.

 

No one is responsible for your happiness but yourself.

 

She can't cause you to become depressed. Some people go through unimaginable hardships yet do not succumb to depression.

 

Depression and anxiety say something about you, and your current mental health status - they do not say something about her.

 

Like others have said, time to quit fooling yourself and let her go. Compatibility has been questionable from the start it sounds - and now, as things have progressed, she has lost all respect for you, and just doesn't have the balls to tell you it's over for good.

 

When I read your lead in, it reminded me a younger, less mature version of myself. The time when I would have a very hard time just being up front and breaking up with people.

 

Instead I would grow cold, I would treat them ways that they shouldn't be treated in the hopes that they would get the clue, or not like me anymore and end it.

 

Sometimes it worked in a slow fade. But once or twice I remember men who would essentially end up grovelling - which absolutely and totally killed any last shred of attraction or respect I had for them.

 

Time to brush you self off. Perhaps seek some counseling so that you can become empowered with some tools to combat your depression.

 

Personally to me it doesn't sound like you are in the right state of mind to date anyone. Definitely not her, and I think you need to get yourself into a better place before you consider dating.

 

People are attracted to people that are happy and content with their lives. People that have their s*** together so that they CAN have a healthy relationship.

 

Your first goal should be getting healthy and finding stable work - the love life stuff will fall into place when you have your life together.

[hp1]

Thanks for your replies. Well, the critical part started once I think she lost some respect and attraction. In fairness she has seen me say things like I have this opportunity or that and present it as if I already had it. She noticed I depend a lot on outcomes based on others and am a bit naive in how I handle some job related things. She said once that I sound like or think like her teenage son. I was basically ok before the relationship and was working at having my own business/income, but fell for her so hard I lost focus and the never knowing my status with her sparked insecurities in me.

 

She has valid points about me not trying hard and says if no kids wouldn't care but I think even with no kids she doesn't respect certain ways about me that I'm truth could be improved. She is high achiever and I guess seeks same. She doesn't know how bad depression is and how affected my confidence and drive. She just heard excuses.

 

Other things like acting like I understand something said in foreign language and I didn't (living abroad) irks her because she knows I didn't understand. That's flaw on my part. Basically just became a people pleasing version of me because didn't want to go through break up with her again (she did and we got back but was still in high attraction phase).

 

I want her to know I agree with some things I could improve and I am about to take job to bring in income and focus something even though not sure can handle it. I hope this give her some faith I can follow through which is her main complaint I guess. But if she dating or feelings for gus with their sh-t together and kicking ass then she may not wait. I want to tell her about the job offer but not until it's final. Even it's not what I want to do I need some income and can focus on something I guess is good for me.

[Trail Blazer]

When I read your lead in, it reminded me a younger, less mature version of myself. The time when I would have a very hard time just being up front and breaking up with people.

 

Instead I would grow cold, I would treat them ways that they shouldn't be treated in the hopes that they would get the clue, or not like me anymore and end it.

I feel that this is what is happening to the OP. I also think that's happening in my relationship. I like it how you said the "less mature" version of yourself. I'm sure the OP appreciates the honesty, and being upfront about this sort of behavior being immature is correct.

 

The best advice anyone can give is to move on.

 

@OP, I'm having "the chat" soon with my gf. I'm at the point where I'm so frustrated about the slow drift I just want an answer either way. I don't want to be let down gently; I just wish she'd rip that band-aid off if that is how she feels.

 

Good luck. I hope you can seek closure soon and move on. Don't beg or plead with her to stay with you. If she's not feelin' it, there's nothing you can do. You've just got to move on, man!

[Morello]

Trail Blazer, not to hijack the OP's thread, but if you're saying you're getting the short end of the stick with your girlfriend, why don't you just break up? Why put yourself in the vulnerable position of asking her to decide your future?

 

I know, easier said than done... However, you seem certain that you don't wish to continue this. Not sure why don't you just take ownership of the situation and make a decision yourself.

[hp1]

I do appreciate the honesty and I can relate as well to your situation. ive been given some great advice here. I must have something that just wont let go until its painfully clear or something snaps me out of denial. She did try to break ups a few times and while I didnt beg, I did ask her to continue a bit more and let me work on it. She agreed. But I know she isn't happy. I dont know where that woman went. She might have simply got bored and needs more excitement type of person. Or she sees things in me that she knows cant live with long term. Or my needles and nice guy behavior just killed everything. I dont know. She broke up with me before and we got back, but that was before knew me well and during honeymoon phase.

 

This experience and her personality and way of being just triggered all my insecurities 10x. I have zero self esteem or confidence and I need to work on these now. It's like letting her go confirms im undesirable and so I seem to need to stop her doing it. Since I agree with a lot of her complaints. I guess this is why I dont feel confident to be the one to break up because I dont feel anyone will want me if they get to know me or my situation.

 

She is still replying to texts, but almost like robot output and told me getting more and more busy but might be able to meet one day this week. I cant bear losing her to some guy who has his stuff together and I blew it. I lost the one woman I thought I could spend rest of life because I lost my focus and became weak in her eyes. I have so much regret I cant even begin to say. Ive effed everything up and now need to take a job I dont even want to do but should since I need to do something, I ruined my life and mental state for a relationship with someone who was never all in to begin with.

Edited February 27, 2019 by hp1

[Trail Blazer]

Trail Blazer, not to hijack the OP's thread, but if you're saying you're getting the short end of the stick with your girlfriend, why don't you just break up? Why put yourself in the vulnerable position of asking her to decide your future?

 

I know, easier said than done... However, you seem certain that you don't wish to continue this. Not sure why don't you just take ownership of the situation and make a decision yourself.

Because I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt until we talk things through. I'm also not getting hung up like the OP. This situation is really affecting OP negatively. It's crystal clear in OP's case that the woman he's with doesn't want to be with him. It's not the case of being so clear in mine, yet... it just feels that way.

 

If and when my gf doesn't want to move forward with the relationship I won't be hanging around, begging her to change her mind. If her issues are outside my control to fix, it's untenable. I do hope OP realizes that no relationship is worth more than your own self respect and being in a relationship doesn't define your self-worth.

[Highndry]

Trail Blazer, not to hijack the OP's thread, but if you're saying you're getting the short end of the stick with your girlfriend, why don't you just break up? Why put yourself in the vulnerable position of asking her to decide your future?

 

 

This is such an important point, and one that a lot of guys are ignoring. When a woman goes cold and starts mistreating you, you send her packing, because there is never a good reason to allow somebody to treat you poorly.

 

Further, when a guy resorts to trying to talk a woman into not leaving him, it's OVER. You are losing respect by the minute. That is not in the least bit attractive to them. Women want a strong man who has the spine to say "I completely understand, I wish you the best" and then move on.

 

Has there ever been a lasting relationship where the woman says "gee, I was trying to dump him for the longest time but he talked me into staying and I love him so much?" No.

[hp1]

I just wanted to know the reason behind and see if was something I could work on to see if could salvage it. If she really wanted to be done with me I dont think she would still be talking with me. Ive done a lot of needy behavior and lost a lot of respect. I am sure she is going on dates to see her options, which she has many. I know its probably too late, but I want to try addressing her issue and see. I have an unhealthy dependence on her I know this. I guess because of feeling bad about myself and how I let this ruin so much in my life, there is not much there to stand up for. Im not seeing value and I need to find somehow and quickly.

[ChatroomHero]

Sometimes you are not compatible. She wants someone different than you. Apparently she didn't like version 1, so you became a more passive version and she didn't like version 2.

 

 

I like to date women who are independent but also warm and sweet. It makes it hard because the more independent women I date are more abrupt and have a hard edge but the sweet women are very passive. If I don't find the right mix I have to move on because trying to change my preferences doesn't work and trying to change them to fit doesn't work either.

 

 

I will say it sounds like you know being passive and needy is not going to work with most other women so the first step of not being so Beta for lack of a better word, is step up like a man and end it. Tell her directly you two are not a fit and you are moving on. Then, actually move on. It doesn't sound like this will ever work between you two, but if you take charge and move on she will respect you and YOU will respect you.

[FMW]

From what you write, the things she says to you and the things she does are not in any way attractive or appealing. The only positive things you've described are how you think she's so hot and physically perfect.

 

Your priorities are way, way off. If you aren't willing or able to see that and seek and demand something better for yourself (hotter is NOT better), then there's not much anyone here can do to help you.

 

Obsession with your love for someone to the point that you cannot give appropriate attention to other areas (your career) is a huge red flag that you are in a dysfunctional unhealthy relationship.

 

Consider talking to a counselor to help understand why you are so obsessed with her. What you describe IS obsession - not healthy love.

[Highndry]

I just wanted to know the reason behind and see if was something I could work on to see if could salvage it. If she really wanted to be done with me I dont think she would still be talking with me. Ive done a lot of needy behavior and lost a lot of respect. I am sure she is going on dates to see her options, which she has many. I know its probably too late, but I want to try addressing her issue and see. I have an unhealthy dependence on her I know this. I guess because of feeling bad about myself and how I let this ruin so much in my life, there is not much there to stand up for. Im not seeing value and I need to find somehow and quickly.

 

 

Your weak, needy behavior was/is a turnoff to her, yet you continue it. The kind of man who allows a woman to date other men while he waits around, hoping she will not find anything better and choose to stay with him is a cuckold. You've happily accepted doormat status, while you continue to grovel at her feet.

[hp1]

I know you are trying to make a point but adding some of those words and saying I'm happily accepting is not true. Im not happy. I'm in a bad state right now where I realize what I need to do but having trouble executing. The negative casts on me are just making me feel worse than I do. Yes I've lost my self esteem but shaming me about it is not going to help. No need to add that layer. I'm already really struggling to hold it together.

[FMW]

No one wants to make you feel bad. The "negative" things are trying to make you see reality.

 

Most of us have been stuck in a fog at times in relationships, so there's no need to feel bad about that. But try to see the reality and snap out of that fog. Sometimes it takes a metaphorical slap in the face (the "negative" comments) to do that.

[hp1]

Thanks, I know the intention and I appreciate it. I'm doing all myself while in a severe depression, no friends, no family, no workplace. Better or worse she was my main social and emotional connection. I know that's part of problem and I need to fix that. I am hanging in to my sanity by a thread, and counseling isn't seem to help me snap out of it so I'm concerned.

 

Met her briefly tonight. Mentioned I had some job opportunities that look promising and adresskng that. I asked her to give bit more time then says ok, then not sure, then ok, then not sure can do this anymore.

 

Tells me (has been for months) her teenage boy getting worse with not attending school, etc and says it's because she isn't home on time when he gets home so feels it's her fault since she was meeting me a lot after work. Says doesn't tell me a lot of this but he is not good and needs to be more there for him.

 

So if this is true I understand of course. But she gave this reason before but then others about job insecurity. I can't know if this is true. Also she says has not gone on dates, slept with anyone, and I don't have any proof except common signs and my imagination, which has been wrong few times. Not saying it's not happened, but really I have no solid proof. Should I believe it anyway based on signs?

 

For example last night says going somewhere after work and couldn't meet. Didn't even Read my texts for 4 hours and never replied that night. I assumed she must be meeting guy. I asked her and she told me was for son"s lesson and had to cancel for him and running here and there related to that. I'm so paranoid that this could be true and I'm just imagining the worst. Or I'm blind to it and she just very good at lying. Feeling worthless and I've read jealousy can be worse in that state

 

I do suspect she is bored of me and the relationship and she is stressed about her kid. For all I know she likes me a lot but mom instinct kicking in and sees me as taking time away from her being good mom and also not a good provider so is pushing me away. I don't know the truth here. Facts are she is making less time, is not happy when we meet, texts are all from me, replies are short and emotionless and sometimes ignored. She does have 2 kids and is single mom with her own hobbies too. I don't know what is truth

Edited March 1, 2019 by hp1

[hp1]

update: pretty sure she just broke up with me. Said cant do this anymore. needs to focus on herself and her kids. Also said waited 1 year for me to get stable job, anything, but I didnt. I told her she didnt tell me was so important and I didnt know clock was ticking. I said Ill get the job in next few weeks she said great, but cant wait anymore. If I had stable job and decent income we could get married an not have to meet after work, etc...she already too busy with life. She said she is not looking to date anyone else. She also saiid doesn't really love me like before., so thats another factor. I told her I will get job and I will show her but she said she doesn't know how will feel by that time and cant promise me. Said we cam still talk. I am in shock .

[hp1]

Guess better if I don't text her and go NC for a while. Nothing I say right now is going to change her mind. Im not giving up, but I know talking to her is too painful and lead to friend zone. I must figure way to find good paying stable job. She saw I lost drive and focused on her. I can't believe how bad I effed this up looking back.

[FMW]

NC is absolutely a great idea. Strictly adhere to it, no exceptions.

 

If it helps look at it as temporary while getting your career and life in general in order so that you're in a better situation if you get back together with her sometime in the future.

 

Ultimately you'll probably find out you really don't want her back at all. But either way, you're improving yourself and those improvements will increase your self-esteem and happiness.

[hp1]

Thank you, I'm bedside myself right now and I'm so upset. I wanted this to work so badly and I made so many mistakes. I can't seem to forgive myself. I'm inconsolable right now. This was the one I wanted to spend rest of life with. And she lost feelings for me. As obsessive as you all know I am by now NC is going to be quite a challenge. I am hoping this is just a bad dream but I know it's not. This has been coming for months. If I find out it's another guy I'm going to completely lose it

[Highndry]

Thank you, I'm bedside myself right now and I'm so upset. I wanted this to work so badly and I made so many mistakes. I can't seem to forgive myself. I'm inconsolable right now. This was the one I wanted to spend rest of life with. And she lost feelings for me. As obsessive as you all know I am by now NC is going to be quite a challenge. I am hoping this is just a bad dream but I know it's not. This has been coming for months. If I find out it's another guy I'm going to completely lose it

 

 

The emotions and feelings you are having right now are the same that everybody has when they go through a breakup or get dumped. It's immensely painful. But you have to face it and go through it. There is no alternative.

 

 

I'd suggest first and foremost you re-read this thread another 2 or 3 times, because despite the excellent advice you have received, nothing has resonated, and you have continued the same very behaviors over, and over, and over again. It's like you have lost control of yourself.

 

 

Why is it that she, and everybody else, can tell you that your needy behavior is driving/has driven her away, yet you continue that needy behavior, begging her to give you another chance, trying to talk her into loving you again after you get a job, etc.? You are repelling this woman.

 

 

This is the ONLY thing you do from this point forward. You tell her:

 

 

"I really enjoyed meeting you and the time we spent. I'm sorry you feel differently about the future than I do. I am going to respect your wishes and I will not be contacting you ever again. If you have a change of heart, you know how to reach me. Best, X."

 

 

And then you NEVER CONTACT HER AGAIN, PERIOD.

 

 

Further, if you feel like you cannot control yourself and you are going to contact her, you need to delete her number/email, etc. Use this thread to write anything you would write to her, but do not call her or contact her in any way, shape or form.

 

 

Lastly, you have been in a suspended state of breakup for some time, which is only exacerbating the pain. Once you go no contact period, accepting the breakup, you are going to start healing. It is going to be hell for a while, but you WILL emerge, I promise.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Highndry

[hp1]

Just writing as thoughts come up. First she says it was her kids and no time for relationship with anyone. Then later we talked about not having secure job or stability to provide fur a family. She said if did, we could marry and then she wouldn't have to find extra time to see me since would be together at home. When I said then if I get job then all ok, and she said other factors too like her feeling. Admitted not love anymore, did before. So says it's lots of things. I think she found someone who is stable and good job and is more exciting/less needy but not telling me. I wish I knew the truth and real reason. If she met someone else then she gets to stop seeing me guilt free. I keep replaying all the ways I lost her confidence. Being in major depression didn't help and i didn't tell her. Probably not make difference. She says she is very practical and with 2 kids and 40s to be with guy who doesn't have good income and isn't driven and is needy was not good for her. I should have tackled this depression sooner.

 

I told her I didn't know the job thing was so critical for her and she was waiting. She didn't make it really clear. She says she not good at telling her feelings so kept it in.

 

Now I feel like complete failure and not sure what kind of job I can get with my skills and age and with depression. I'm seeing her dumping me as confirmation I've got nothing going for me and no woman will want me. Her judgement of me is spot on. I've lost the woman I was crazy about. I failed

[hp1]

I know I have received great advice here and appreciate it. I'm just so trapped in fear that I couldn't bring myself to execute. It was not that I didn't agree with it

[Highndry]

The thing is, man, you've got this. You CAN handle it. It does not matter whatsoever WHY this woman is leaving you. She is making up excuses, changing her story but the fact of the matter is, she is not interested in a relationship with you anymore. Yes, that hurts, but it's reality.

 

Do you really think you would feel better if she said "hey, the reason I'm leaving you is I've met another guy and he's incredible and I'm sleeping with him now?" Of course you wouldn't. All you needed to know in the first place was that she had lost interest in you. From that moment, you should have immediately bailed.

 

Let this whole thing be a learning experience. Understand that you have attracted this woman, so you will be able to attract many others like her, even better. This is a BIG world, with millions upon millions of women in your age group alone. This isn't the end of your life. You can work on yourself, get healthy, then emerge a stronger person.

[hp1]

Thank you, I appreciate the support and wisdom. I dont see a clear path to a career here (im living abroad and want to stay) or even back home and maybe that is the depression or just poor choices I made until now.

 

If I dont know the real reason, then I cant work on it in case there is chance in future. I would not feel better if knew was another guy but it might make me see her in negative light and know I wasn't crazy. But chance that I would still obsess over why and nothing would change. I have feeling she just wants to be free to be with this persons and I fell short of the mark for too long.

 

The thing is, at least now, I dont want any other woman. I just want her. I have no idea how to fix my job issue and the depression is getting worse. The friends and opportunities I did have are tainted since ive talked about this issue with them too much. My professional and personal reputations has been affected by this issue with her. She was all I had and I ruined everything and now dont even have her to show for it.

[hp1]

the circuluar reasoning is playing in my head ( I know I know, pointless). But to say first its because her kids need more attention, then to say its because doesn't se future with my job here and unstable life. I say if I get good job, then? she say s dont feel love anymore. Its like she leaves no room or desire to try. Id like to know how much was my fault with the neediness and not telling her about my depression earlier (which affected my drive), and how much was her character from the start. She said if I had great job then we could be married, but she doesn't think I can do it at my age and situation here. So she must be seeing other guy for long time and waiting to finally get rid of me. Just a feeling, but could be wrong. I know, whats the point of knowing. Might help me hate her more than pining for her. But she will never tell me. So I cant know. Today I will not text her.

 

I was so freaked out last night by this I asked can we sell talk and text and she said yes, but I know I dont want that or can handle it. Ill may reply if she text me but I wont text her. She eFFIN broke my heart. I was hesitant to open to love again because I know I cant handle breakups but I took a chance since I thought she was a keeper. Big mistake.

 

If I knew she left me for another guy I dont know if get over faster since angry and betrayed or take longer. Either way, I cant believe she gave up instead of trying to talk to me about these issues earlier. Im just venting and writing, instead of texting her...thanks

[Trail Blazer]

the circuluar reasoning is playing in my head ( I know I know, pointless). But to say first its because her kids need more attention, then to say its because doesn't se future with my job here and unstable life. I say if I get good job, then? she say s dont feel love anymore. Its like she leaves no room or desire to try. Id like to know how much was my fault with the neediness and not telling her about my depression earlier (which affected my drive), and how much was her character from the start. She said if I had great job then we could be married, but she doesn't think I can do it at my age and situation here. So she must be seeing other guy for long time and waiting to finally get rid of me. Just a feeling, but could be wrong. I know, whats the point of knowing. Might help me hate her more than pining for her. But she will never tell me. So I cant know. Today I will not text her.

 

I was so freaked out last night by this I asked can we sell talk and text and she said yes, but I know I dont want that or can handle it. Ill may reply if she text me but I wont text her. She eFFIN broke my heart. I was hesitant to open to love again because I know I cant handle breakups but I took a chance since I thought she was a keeper. Big mistake.

 

If I knew she left me for another guy I dont know if get over faster since angry and betrayed or take longer. Either way, I cant believe she gave up instead of trying to talk to me about these issues earlier. Im just venting and writing, instead of texting her...thanks

 

Dude, one thing you've got to understand about women, and I've experienced this myself over the last couple of years, is that they don't take too kindly to being made accountable for their emotions. Women act on their emotions, hence why many of their actions can't be deconstructed to make sense of in a logical way.

 

Wanting to know "why" is actually irrelevant. The pursuit of "why" will lead you down a frustrating path but ultimately fruitless path in most cases. Only very recently I yearned for the knowldge of "why" as well. Knowing "why" can help me understand and make better choices in the future, so it was in my best interest to glean some kind of explanation for a situation. Why also can help give closure.

 

Now, the problem here is that why isn't simply a black and white concept when it comes to women. The reality is that she is no longer attracted to you. That's really all you need to know. "When someone acts like they don't care about you then you should believe them."

 

You WILL NOT get any closure from seeking out why! Why? Well, you won't get an honest answer in most cases. You'll get the answer which she thinks will be the easiest for you to digest and move on. At least if she's a half decent person. See, the brutal truth is something very few women can handle when received. So, it stands to reason that in most cases, women also have a hard time delivering the brutal, honest truth.

 

You see, women are akin to electricity when it comes to actually facing harsh, emotional realities in relationships. They will take the path of least resitence. Especially in the case of your relationship, there's no way this woman will want to tell you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If she's already headed for the exit, you can be damn sure she's going to say whatever it takes to pave the easiest path to get there. "Why" is just an encumberance, so you can be damn sure that she'll navigate around that the quickest way possible.

 

Men and women engage in relationships for different reasons, but the objective is always the same. It's always self serving. If two people meet, both fall in love together then it is fair to say that at that static moment in time, the transaction of two self serving individuals have reached an equalibrium.

 

The problems start to arise when that balance starts to move in any which direction. Whether this woman ever loved you is probably up for debate, but what is certain is that whatever it was that culminated in her finding you initially attractive has diminished in some way.

 

Of course, you're going to want to know "why". It's going to drive you crazy as you'll think, "if I just know the one, two or however many little things I need to fix then I'll be able to win her back, right?" Wrong! I mean, let's just entertain the notion for a second that it's even possible to get a somewhat accurate account of why, you're going ro do one of two things. One, you'll walk away with whatever dignity you still have in check.

 

Unfortunately in your case, you will most certainly do the second thing, and that is to scramble to try and fix the thing/s which she's told you which need fixing. Immediately this will cause her to lose even more respect for you, assuming the behavior exhibited by this woman can be traced back to her having lost respect for you to begin with. And, let's face it, no woman who has the utmost respect for their man goes cold or pulls away. Quite the contrary; a woman who respects their man completely sees their man as complete, so she'll do whatever it is she can to keep herself relevant. But, I digress...

 

The thing about this woman is, for whatever reason she's going cold, it's a message she's sending you. She's not going to tell you directly what her problem is. She's either angry and hurting, or she wants to leave you but can't muster up the courage to dump you. Either way, she's trying to tell you SOMETHING and only hopes that you get the message, and act upon it in the way in which she hopes you will. She's outcome driven, but too emotionally immature or weak to actually communicate this to you straight, so she's doing it in the only way she knows how to; through passive-aggressive ways.

 

Honestly man, just realize that it's over and get out of the relationship. You need to do a lot of introspection. I have been lately. It's been enlightening. Learn to only rely on yourself for emotional support. Learn to fill your life with activities that give you, yourself meaning and purpose. Learn that you should never, ever give someone the power to your happiness.

 

"A man's loyalty is tested when he starts becoming successful and a woman's loyalty is tested when her man's success starts diminishing"

 

That quote is absolutely true. Many men and women stave off any thoughts of transgressing if other aspects of the union are still positive enough to maintain some sort of an equilibrium. Unfortunately, in your case they aren't. Your girlfriend has at least spoken with you about your lack of success. However, if she was still being fulfilled in other ways, it may not be a deal breaker. As it stands, what you bring to the table is no longer keeping her engaged. The deal is off to her, and now she's exploring her options.

 

Take it as a lesson, don't take it to heart. Use this experience as a way to learn, move on and grow so you can continue to attract viable partners. Remember, you landed her, so you can land someone else. Half the battle is already won when they agree to be your girlfriend. The hardest part is keeping them, however, understanding how they work instead of trying to understand why they, women, work the way they do, will provide you with the best possible chance of keeping them.

 

Just finally, in future you should try to be of the view that it's never be your job to convince someone why they should stay with you, it should be them trying to convince you why you should keep them around. Know your worth, act your worth and they'll know it, too. If they don't appreciate your worth then send them packing - they were never right for you to begin with. Just like this woman!

Edited March 2, 2019 by Trail Blazer