Is the whole institution of marriage built on a shaky foundation?

[lana-banana]

The wedding industry targets women, not men, because it's brides and the bride's family that traditionally makes most of the purchasing decisions.

 

One of our wedding photos is my husband boldly showing off his ring. He picked our wedding colors.He also had two bachelor parties (a bar crawl and a trip to a racetrack) and insisted we do specialized engagement photography. Meanwhile, I spent the morning of my wedding PRing on my deadlift. I did not have a photographer with me as I got ready. We didn't have a ceremony.

 

None of this has any impact on our marriage or lives together, of course, because it was one day and one reason to throw a damn fine party. It has no relevance to our married lives except maybe as a demonstration of how well we work together, and why he makes most of the home design decisions (I have the visual acuity of a bat).

 

Most of my male friends were very active about their weddings, or lack thereof. Lots of us went to the courthouse beforehand and had parties later. I helped one buddy with an elaborate five week plot around picking up his ring, and went tux shopping with another. It could be cultural or generational, but the men I know were at least gladly involved in planning.

 

We went into it with eyes open and expectations realistic. We have had plenty of conversations about the good and the bad of marriage, and we have already identified areas where major conflicts could, if not thoughtfully resolved, be the end of us. That doesn't mean marriage itself isn't worthwhile, or that it's not worth doing. If two people are on the same page and want to commit that way, why shouldn't they?

Edited February 19, 2019 by lana-banana

[LastStraw]

It could be cultural or generational, but the men I know were at least gladly involved in planning.

 

I suspect I have a good hypothesis on this and it has nothing to do with culture or age... I know some men liking frills and fluff and they have let’s call it non conventional sexuality .

 

Here I don’t include the ones that just like to get over it, by analogy I’d pick boring tasks at work just cause I know I’ll do them faster and cause less damage (financial loss) then my less experienced work partners.

[pepperbird]

When I read some of the reposes to this, all I can think is that there are an awful lot of men out there who seem to think they can read other's minds.

Must be nice.

 

 

Most married couples I know who planned an elaborate wedding did so together, and these are all big, tough "manly" guys.

 

 

A question...of monogamy is so unnatural to humans, then why are there feelings of jealousy? Why does it hurt so much?

[Wallysbears]

Very true point!

 

If marriage and monogamy are such a foreign concept and so outdated here is a question to the men:

 

Would you be happy or content to have your wife/girlfriend/partner having sex with other men?

[LastStraw]

A question...of monogamy is so unnatural to humans, then why are there feelings of jealousy? Why does it hurt so much?

 

It has to do with possessiveness. Not a good emotion.

 

Jealousy may have developed evolutionary to keep the offspring purebreds (even in birds there is cross fertilization aka cheating).

 

Cheating on the other side may have developed to keep the offspring genetically diverse.

 

We’re not as complex as we think we are....

[thefooloftheyear]

When I read some of the reposes to this, all I can think is that there are an awful lot of men out there who seem to think they can read other's minds.

Must be nice.

 

?

 

I laugh as well....when women who will never know(and never bothered to even talk to) a tenth of the men I have known in my life try to dispute it....

 

No one is saying that all men aren't "all in", but to deny the fact that the whole event, the whole process, etc is almost 100% driven by the woman is just being completely delusional...Many guys I know actually caved in to the marriage out of sheer failure of will to say no..

 

And I'll say this as well as for guys that are heavily in all for pro marriage...

 

A lot of them fall into two groups..

 

1) The control freaks that think they now got a woman locked in that they can control...

 

2) The other group consists of guys that either rarely or never got laid and now that they found the one and only woman that will touch their dick, they figure they better lock that down fast as they may never get another chance...

 

Not that appealing of a scenario, if you ask me...

 

TFY

[CantGetEnuff]

And group 3...

 

Men who just caved to societal pressures and expectations and didn't really consider that "eternal bachelorhood" is a valid life goal.

 

But yeah, the control freaks should never get married (for obvious reasons).

 

And the group 2 guys tend to put women on a pedestal and think that they can never do any better. Hell, maybe they can't, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should "lock down" the first woman willing to bang them.

 

And I am trying to be nice, but I am stunned at how many women really think most men are "all in" on marriage. Their husbands will never ever ever admit their apathetic attitudes because it would be moronic to do so, so they'll never really know.

[preraph]

Men end up needing to commit for different reasons, whether it's their nature or not. One is because most of them are happy being nonmonogamous but are very unhappy if the woman of their focus is seeing other men. Another is because they don't like other men around their children, which is common in nature. Another is because women don't want a philandering man, so quality of woman is going to have to go way down to find one cool with open relationship. And again, from being on here, it seems to me a man takes it hard in the ego if the woman they are focused on is seeing another man, sleeping with another man.

 

Sure, they all would love it if they could collect women and own them and keep them corralled up for their pleasure in a remuda, but them days are gone, Pardner. Comes down to it, women have more options to have multiple partners than men do, so men have get corralled (pun intended) into making compromises to keep the fillies from running wild.

[Wallysbears]

 

And I am trying to be nice, but I am stunned at how many women really think most men are "all in" on marriage. Their husbands will never ever ever admit their apathetic attitudes because it would be moronic to do so, so they'll never really know.

 

 

I bet there are an equal number of women who are 'apathetic' at best about their marriages. I see these ladies all the time. They tolerate their husbands, at best.

 

It isn't a man-only thing.

[Tamfana]

<snip>

And I am trying to be nice, but I am stunned at how many women really think most men are "all in" on marriage. Their husbands will never ever ever admit their apathetic attitudes because it would be moronic to do so, so they'll never really know.

 

One would think that men would be on board since married men live longer than single men do and single women live longer than married women do. There must be something about marriage that’s good for men.

 

Also, if you’re willing to assume that men fake their enthusiasm about marriage to their fiancés, we need to also assume that some men fake their “meh” or their disdain for marriage to their bros. A lot of men posture for other men and are more concerned about male hierarchy than relative power with women. It would make sense then that at least some men say what’s needed to gain or maintain rank in the hierarchy with the guys.

Edited February 20, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Truncate quote

[preraph]

There are men who do like marriage. Not sure if they cheat or not though or are tempted. Probably.

[pepperbird]

op,

I'm not surprised the circle of guys you know say the things they do, as you have surrounded yourself with guys whoa re just like you. There's nothing wrong with doing that ( we all do it) but it does explain why you see what you see. If a guy were to say he was happily looking forward to being married, you'd probably make fun of him.

 

 

 

At any rate, this discussion is all a moot point anyway. No one has to get married, and if they cave to the "pressure", then I would suggest they have a lot of growing up to do.

[pepperbird]

<snip> And again, from being on here, it seems to me a man takes it hard in the ego if the woman they are focused on is seeing another man, sleeping with another man.

All this indicates that sleeping around may not be the default human condition after all. If we were built for it, no one would care...yet they do.

Edited February 20, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Truncate quote and fix spacing

[pepperbird]

If one does some checking online, the reasons listed for divorce tend to have more to do with money, communication issues and age when the couple got married.

 

Most also show, at least in the USA, marriage rates are going up and divorce rates are going down.

[basil67]

LMAO about weddings being all for women. I'm a woman and one of the reasons that we didn't officially marry was that my partner wanted a massive wedding. He wanted the whole shebang with a white dress, suits, multiple groomsmen, bridesmaids, flowers, tastefully written invitations and 100+ guests. He wouldn't budge and I'd rather stick pins in my eyes. So defacto it is and we are happy.

[basil67]

And group 3...

 

Men who just caved to societal pressures and expectations and didn't really consider that "eternal bachelorhood" is a valid life goal.

 

But yeah, the control freaks should never get married (for obvious reasons).

 

And the group 2 guys tend to put women on a pedestal and think that they can never do any better. Hell, maybe they can't, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should "lock down" the first woman willing to bang them.

 

I can't find your post which talks about group 1, so forgive me if I repeat what you said previously.

 

Which group are men who settle down with one woman because want a family? I know many men who've been keen to be fathers. But a father who's not emotionally bonded with his family and who sleeps around or disappears while shagging another woman is not a good father.

 

(I have focused on fathers because it's been discussed that this thread is about men)

[LastStraw]

Most also show, at least in the USA, marriage rates are going up and divorce rates are going down.

 

Aaaaand the reason for that is now many non religious people live de facto married instead of officiating it.

 

If you include the dissolution of de facto couples / long term cohabs in the mix, rates I bet are going up, and going up drastically...

[Tamfana]

I can't find your post which talks about group 1, so forgive me if I repeat what you said previously.

 

Which group are men who settle down with one woman because want a family? I know many men who've been keen to be fathers. But a father who's not emotionally bonded with his family and who sleeps around or disappears while shagging another woman is not a good father.

 

(I have focused on fathers because it's been discussed that this thread is about men)

 

So true. My daughter's last BF wanted them to marry and start having kids. He grew up in a big energetic family that revolved around sports- playing and coaching- and he wants that family-centered kid-centric life.

[Orokotikki]

IMHO, nothing wrong with lifetime bachelorhood, but men are perfectly capable of making vows and keeping them regardless of their "instinct" or whatever EXCUSE those who FAIL to keep them have.

 

The fact is some people fail where others don't.

Talking about how cavemen or animals weren't monogamous is just excuse to cushion their ego when they look in the mirror and have to greet their failure.

 

Some people improve themselves and others look for excuses and entitlements not to.

[RecentChange]

I am going to put my sociologist hat on and say all of these generalizations make me cringe.

 

The answer to many of the questions posted here - is "because its the societal norm in North America". An accumulation of history, gender roles, marketing etc.

 

Why do people get married, why do women care about weddings, why do parents and friends put pressure on this. Why is monogamy the standard so on and so forth. Because that is the standard, and something our society has at least attempted to put an importance on.

 

I grew up in a liberal area, raised by parents who did not put any pressure on me when it came to standards like having children, getting married, etc. "Choose your own path" was the mantra.

 

I decided I never wanted to have children, and met a man who never wanted to have children.

 

I decided that I did not want to have a wedding (all of that stuff marked to women for weddings never appealed to me in the slightest) - and met a man who didn't care about having a wedding.

 

I decided that marriage was not important to me - and met a man that marriage was not important to.

 

However, I am married, because my husband and I choose to get married after 14 years together. It made sense for a number of financial and legal reasons.

 

Our relationship survived infidelity on both are parts. For us, it just wasn't the monumental deal killer that it is for so many people. Our mores are different than the cultural standard when it comes to commitment, and sex etc. Although I admit that is something we keep to ourselves, as "society" as a whole is not as understanding as my husband and I are of each other.

 

For US, at least for the 18+ years we have been together, marriage works. Our relationship was the same before "making it legal" as it is now. We said that we would be there for each other forever not long after we met, and that is what we continue to try to be.

 

I think people should be ready to commit to each other for a good 15+ years if they are considering having babies. Beyond that, I do not think anyone should be pressured to get married. Its right for some couples, and wrong for others.

[LastStraw]

The answer to many of the questions posted here - is "because its the societal norm in North America". An accumulation of history, gender roles, marketing etc.

...

 

I think people should be ready to commit to each other for a good 15+ years if they are considering having babies.

 

I so much agree with your post, especially the two parts above. First off, it's a completely societal construct (where fidelity/infidelity plays little to no role past the point of procreation), and second - commitment (marital or any other LTR) is important only in context of child rearing. Excluding that - it is up to parties involved.

 

Funny how your family made you think marriage it's not important. In my case my family besides being married themselves because society made them do it (talking a country and time in which any other choice was unacceptable), was adamantly AGAINST marriage. My main caretaker (grandma) even told me: you have two choices - to succeed in life or to get married. Well, these words, although extreme, made me being very weary into entering unions let alone meaningless parties for 10s of thousands lol.

 

Will I do it? Maybe yes, because my partner is traditional and it's important to his family.... Besides that... I just hope it's not too late for an actual life commitment (baby).

[pepperbird]

IMHO, nothing wrong with lifetime bachelorhood, but men are perfectly capable of making vows and keeping them regardless of their "instinct" or whatever EXCUSE those who FAIL to keep them have.

 

The fact is some people fail where others don't.

Talking about how cavemen or animals weren't monogamous is just excuse to cushion their ego when they look in the mirror and have to greet their failure.

 

Some people improve themselves and others look for excuses and entitlements not to.

 

 

True enough.

I get so sick of the "our ancestors did x, y and z so therefore , we should be the same". Our ancestors did all sorts of rotten things to one another. Slavery, torture, rape etc. were all situation normal until not that far back in our evolutionary history, and in some places, they still are today.

 

 

In the end, what does it matter? If someone wants to get married and knows themselves well enough to decide they can make that kind of commitment, then more power to them. The same goes for those who don't want to be married.

[Mysterio]

In my head. I don't have this great desire to be with a lot of woman sexually. No way are they going to make it that easy. I think a woman can be that way with most men, but not the other way around.

 

I only think about different women in the sense that its like a shopping list. Or being on Amazon. Its more by default. I am looking and don't have a steady female romantically into me. So most women are assessed in my head romantically if they trigger it off for me. The more they ask about me and what I think. Playful as well the more I would think of them in a romantic way. For me the way I am built. A woman is going to have to be really into me physically to keep me engaged. We are not going weeks or months without some sort of physical affection between us.

 

I have not been with a woman physical in a major way since 2013. Even before that it was scarce. I don't want every single interaction with a woman, to be me vying for physical affection from her. I was with my friend JC and I even felt that. I just keep it in. JC is not into me that way. Otherwise she would just say so.

 

Another thing is that the whole mating this is just comes off as stupid to me. Meeting and maintaining a romantic relationship now a days is hard? I don't get it. Seems like my Uncle/Aunts/Parents were more cut and dry and do nothing for each other romantic. They stayed together. Our generation which I will mark here as those of us that are born in the 70/80/90's have it rough. I know lots of people that got together and are broken up years later. I doubt they went to councelling to get back on track.

 

Again we have to look at who we want beyond the physical, but does over doing it mean we can devalue them as well. I really broke up with my ex in 2012 because I projected her as only wanting to get a kid out of me. She is not going to be super affectionate within our relationship as a whole and I can feel that. Thats why JC is off the table as well, because I don't see her as being super affectionate with me in the long run. So why bother trying to start something. I might as well invest in a woman that wants that from me from the start. No physical affection that is desired from me to her and vice versa. Its friends/aquintances for me. On my side. I think I have to be, we are dating first, then if it does not work. Aquintances. I have 3 women friends. I don't need a forth one.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Mysterio

[zouz71]

1) Do you think men are biologically designed to have sex with only one woman for 40+ years? Yes or no?

Only if they love each other truly

2) Do you think women are biologically designed to have sex with only one man for 40+ years? Yes or no?

 

It is emotional not biological

3) Do you think marriage is the right fit for most people? Keep in mind that in 2017 over 50 percent of Americans over age 18 were married. (Pew data) And keep in mind if we would change that to "Americans over 25" or something like that, the percent would probably increase to at least 55 percent (my estimate), so marriage is definitely the choice of the majority of people. But should it be?

 

Not for all people

 

4) The most frequently cited reasons for wanting to get married (Pew again) were love and life-long commitment. But does that make any sense? You can enjoy relationships without marriage, and can anyone really fathom what a romantic 'life-long' commitment really is? You are a different person at 20 than you are 35 and then again at 50. Doesn't this "life-long" idea assume you want the same partner at all stages of your life?

It makes sense when they are both of giver type and compatible.

 

 

Marriage to hold is a consistent commitment with sacrifices

If one of the spouses is selfish it will fail.

Those who divorce after long years are definitely not happy

Being not happy doesn't come usually out of a sudden

It is the result of resentment build over months and years

When a man or a woman tries and tries to make things better and the other partner does nothing except sucking happiness from their heart it is definitely an issue with getting married from the beginning to the wrong person

[pepperbird]

This really is another one of those threads where someone got married who should never, ever have done so, and because he can't make it work for himself, he'll assume no one else can either.

 

 

I've been married over 20 years. My parents were married for almost 50 and it only ended when my mom died.

For all those who think a couple can't be in love after all those years, well, when she got sick, she lost a lot of weight. He used to carry her up and down the stairs, give her her injections and do everything he could to make her last days as good as they could be. He was with her when she died, and in his eyes, she was still the bride he married all those years ago. Even thoguh she'd lost all her hair and was so thin and ill, to him, she was beautiful.

That was five years ago. The other day, he and I were going through a box of old photos, and there were some of her. He had stop stop, as he had started crying. he's an intelligent, strong "manly" man and had loved her with the depth of his soul.