Author CantGetEnuff Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 @TamFana, I think that is one 'fix,' although I think most would struggle with feelings of jealousy. I mean when you live with someone, share a home, money, kids(?), etc., you are probably going to feel possessive about your partner. People would have to get over that. Not sure that many could. Now people with (what I view) as a more enlightened viewpoint (that "true love and soulmates, etc" are all ridiculous ideas) might be able to succeed. I know some that do. I really think we'd have to reconstruct "marriage" as opposed to tweaking it. Currently, marital status can affect... 1) tax treatment 2) insurance rates 3) all sorts of legal issues 4) etc etc It's a lot to untangle. Link to post Share on other sites
pepperbird Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Eh that's what you see, or they want you to see. It very well could be the lady (or the dude) nagged and nagged and nagged, and in the end the groom to be just gave up to regain his peace lol. It was two guys, and there was no "nagging" involved. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
LastStraw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) Oh we (in the US) will be rediscovering the wheel on that. Dutch people has done it years ago with their ‘registered partnership’ - this is NOT just a cohab, it is identical to marriage expect the dissolution is simple, quick and painless unless there are kids in the mix. No kids = termination of the partnership on demand of one or both parties. That easy and simple. Sexual monogamy makes me giggle - I’ve spoken candidly to so many men and don’t know a single one that haven’t strayed (being with a lover or a sex worker), But of course they don’t admit it and flaunt it around so people believe it never happens. How cute:D <snip> Now people with (what I view) as a more enlightened viewpoint (that "true love and soulmates, etc" are all ridiculous ideas) might be able to succeed. I know some that do. I really think we'd have to reconstruct "marriage" as opposed to tweaking it. <snip> Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Truncate quote Link to post Share on other sites
LastStraw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 It was two guys, and there was no "nagging" involved. How do you know what happened behind closed doors? I mentioned dude in brackets because in gay couples same rules apply.... Lol the gay couple i know married after 10(!?) years or so when one of them moved abroad. Still married, seeing each other couple of weeks each year but ‘hanging there’ Because one of them nagged enough. Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) There is no need to "reconstruct" anything. Marital laws vary by country anyway, and in many countries common law or de facto partnerships are treated similar to marriages in legal terms. The beauty of modern society is that there really is something for everyone - just do what you want, and leave everyone else alone, geez. Do >50% of marriages fail? Okay, so what? 100% of us die. Does that mean that there is no point in living? I don't really see the point of the thread. It's like asking "is the whole institution of casual sex built on a shaky foundation?". Obviously, the answer is that people who want to have casual sex should have casual sex, and people who don't want to, shouldn't. Why the need to try and impose your own views (and trust me, this IS your own view, I certainly know men who are desperate to get married) on other people? I have spent time in foreign countries where multiple wives are legal, but I met very few people who actually wanted more than one. I'm familiar with a Muslim country where this is legal - but when you apply to marry a second wife, you have to prove that you have sufficient income/assets to support an additional family. So only rich men "benefit" (assuming they even want a second wife). Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Fix spacing 2 Link to post Share on other sites
LastStraw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 I don't really see the point of the thread. It's like asking "is the whole institution of casual sex built on a shaky foundation?". Obviously, the answer is that people who want to have casual sex should have casual sex, and people who don't want to, shouldn't. Why the need to try and impose your own views (and trust me, this IS your own view, I certainly know men who are desperate to get married) on other people? What’s the point of having ANY laws or rules then when only ones that want to follow them will follow them?! Makes no sense.., Regarding the thread, OP puts some great questions with obvious answers disguised behind the Disney view of marriages. IRL it is an arrangement for few years (average of 8), in which sexual monogamy is presumed but not enforced Way simpler than the life long BS that Disney creates. Link to post Share on other sites
pepperbird Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) [] Personally, I find it frickin; hilarious when some man whines that "marriage isn't natural" or " monkeys like to sleep around...why can't I :rolleyes:" stay married because he is too chickensh@t to walk away, especially if there are no kids involved. In that situation, the dude is right usually right smack where he wants to be. He actually enjoys being married and the security the goes along with it. btw...sure some monkeys and dolphins sleep around, but does that mean people should too? Dolphins have been found to rape other dolphins, attack members of other pods and even kill their babies. Chimps are incredibly violent, will attack without provocation when they're ticked off, they'll fling their feces around. Still think those are great examples from the animal world? Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 2 Link to post Share on other sites
pepperbird Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) How do you know what happened behind closed doors? I mentioned dude in brackets because in gay couples same rules apply.... Lol the gay couple i know married after 10(!?) years or so when one of them moved abroad. Still married, seeing each other couple of weeks each year but ‘hanging there’ Because one of them nagged enough. The problem in this situation lies with a man not having enough backbone to say " I love you, but I don't want to get married". That makes him a coward, and that's his fault, nothing more. Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Fix spacing 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Wallysbears Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) IRL it is an arrangement for few years (average of 8), in which sexual monogamy is presumed but not enforced Way simpler than the life long BS that Disney creates. I think that individuals who have a history of divorce, being in relationships with people divorced or come from divorced families see marriage as an arrangement. Those of us that come from intact families where parents did get married for life and were happy tend to have a different point of view. My parents were married 48 years when my Dad died. My in-laws are coming up on 45. And they're still happily married and going strong. It is all about priorities and dedication to marriage. To some it is an arrangement. To others it is a lifelong commitment that they work hard at making work. Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Fix spacing 4 Link to post Share on other sites
pepperbird Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) <snip> OP puts some great questions with obvious answers disguised behind the Disney view of marriages. IRL it is an arrangement for few years (average of 8), in which sexual monogamy is presumed but not enforced Way simpler than the life long BS that Disney creates. It's the exact opposite. The people who have this "Disney" view of marriage are usually the ones who screw it up, just like the ones who see it as some excuse to throw a big party. Ask them , and they can't see past their wedding day. The people who can make it last are those who are realists and able to see something larger than themselves and what they want at any particular moment. Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Truncate quote, fix spacing 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 What’s the point of having ANY laws or rules then when only ones that want to follow them will follow them?! Makes no sense.., Is there a law that everyone must get married? Regarding the thread, OP puts some great questions with obvious answers disguised behind the Disney view of marriages. What does this even mean, lol? If you ask a question when you think there is already an "obvious answer", are you even really asking a question? It sounds more like pushing a modus operandi. IRL it is an arrangement for few years (average of 8), in which sexual monogamy is presumed but not enforced Way simpler than the life long BS that Disney creates. I don't know about you, but this has not been my observation IRL. Also, IMO people with "Disney expectations" typically don't even make it to a long-term relationship or marriage. They're usually waiting for Prince or Princess Charming, whom no human being can possibly satisfy. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author CantGetEnuff Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) "What you call love was created by guys like me to sell nylons." Don Draper cuts to the heart of it, as usual. The whole idea of "being in love with my soulmate and having eyes for no other" is absolutely Disney/Madison Avenue bs. One hundred percent. So people who go into marriage with those ideas are just setting themselves up to fail. And they do. Constantly. And I actually agree with @pepperbird that yes, some people who are realists can approach marriage as an arrangement that can have some significant benefits, but I differ at that point because realism/pragmatism tells you that yes, one or both spouses are going to cheat because they are horny, or bored, or unsatisfied or whatever. It is likely going to happen. So figure out what you do with that in advance. It's naive to believe that neither will stray. My biggest mistake was not sitting down at the beginning and saying, "Look I don't want to make promises I won't keep. What can we do to make this work?" But that ship has long since sailed. Edited February 19, 2019 by CantGetEnuff Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) You keep getting back to the whole cheating thing. Do you really think that everyone NOT married is honest with their partner or the person they're sleeping with? I dunno about you, but from hearing my girlfriends talk, some of the sleaziest, most disgusting liars they've ever met were dudes they slept with while neither of them were even exclusive. The only way you're going to ever be sure nobody is lying to you is to lock yourself in like a hermit and interact with no one. Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Redcate quote of prior post; fix spacing 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JuneL Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 OP: You have avoided my question. What institution would you design that is more realistic given people’s tendency to stray? You pointed out that open marriage doesn’t work because of jealousy. It’s clear that you want to have it both ways. You have also avoided the question of whether you believe your wife has strayed. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Wallysbears Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 "Don Draper" was designed to be a "very weak man" "Shame is his lifeblood," Matthew Weiner said of his intriguing main character, who is the engine of his influential and stylish series about an ad man of the 1950s and 1960s. So of course if you look to him as a role model or someone that's advice/quotes are relatable then yes, you'll see marriage is inconvenient/unsustainable. Weak people rarely can make things work long term...especially not something as complex as a healthy, happy marriage. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 It does seem a bit odd that weddings are primarily for women, are pushed by women, defended by women, etc... While some men are truly thrilled to be married, At best most guys are mildly happy/apathetic or "meh" about it, and many are either dead set against it, or have been so scarred from getting their brains beat in a divorce court... And don't believe what women say about their husbands...Many will say their husbands are thrilled, but privately arent.. While women do divorce more than men do, there are easily more men just alone in misery, but wont do anything for fear of living in a box and never seeing their kids...And the women who divorce seem to still want to find the story book romance novel relationship, unlike men... ' Just interesting observations...not sure what it all means in the end... TFY 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Wallysbears Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Ugh. Weddings. I think WAY too many people got caught up in weddings and don't pay enough attention to the marriage aspect. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) I tried to add to my last post,... Isn't it funny about how the genders differ... A woman could come in to work and show off her new engagement ring, and all of the unmarried women virtually collapse in a heap, go home and cry, etc.. A guy tells his buddies/coworkers he got engaged...He'll say it with a bit of an eye roll and all his buddies will goof on him and call him a sucker.....Now they might be joking and be happy for him, but they aren't all collapsing in a heap...Its even not uncommon to hear guys tell other guys not to broadcast it too loud as they don't want their gf's knowing about it and then put pressure on them...... TFY Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Redact quote of prior post; fix spacing 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author CantGetEnuff Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 @thefooloftheyear makes a good point about how the genders approach weddings/marriage...they are definitely not the same between men and women. I mean, how many men have you seen go, "Guess what, guys???? I'm getting married!!!!" and then squeal and hug his friends and then go right into the color scheme and or flower choices for the wedding. I mean...seriously. Women are 99% percent of the culprits here. Men are absolutely more apathetic...and yes it's odd considering they are generally (not always) the ones who actually 'pop the question' and set things officially spinning into motion. Men don't get carried away by weddings. They don't go around showing other guys their wedding rings. They don't, generally speaking, define themselves as much by their relationships, including marriage. added: Haha fool I swear I had mine typed out before yours posted. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
LastStraw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) I have a relationship with a divorced man, but I haven't been divorced and/or married, and all my immediate family (parents, grandparents etc) stayed together until death... Because in this part of the world, a divorce was considered a failure (whereas well concealed cheating, neglect or abuse was totally okay lol, if the neighbors don't report you ) You can't call it a lifelong commitment considering the stats... I'm not partial here because as said, I haven't been divorced or even married, but the numbers suggest it is a short-to-mid term arrangement.... I think that individuals who have a history of divorce, being in relationships with people divorced or come from divorced families see marriage as an arrangement. <snip> Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Truncate quote Link to post Share on other sites
LastStraw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) Lol gay guys somewhat get excited about weddings, straight guys are 100% indifferent, no exception... My guy is weirdly very pro-marriage although his was far from great... But he's very old school so just likes the institution. And yet even he can't care less about weddings, only for what comes after that @thefooloftheyear makes a good point about how the genders approach weddings/marriage...they are definitely not the same between men and women.<snip> Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Truncate quote Link to post Share on other sites
Author CantGetEnuff Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 I think a good related question would be...and I'll try to phrase this as objectively as possible... What explains the difference between how men and women generally approach weddings, both their own, and those of their friends/family? I mean, I think answering this question could shed some light on the differing attitudes re: marriage we have been discussing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author CantGetEnuff Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 @Wallysbears, I am not Don Draper! lol I wish! That's an impossibly high standard for any dude (in some ways). He does have awesome quotes. Link to post Share on other sites
LastStraw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Is there a law that everyone must get married? Not exactly but you still hear a lot about 'illegitimate children' or 'children born out of wedlock', so to an extent it is still enforced as a reproductive contract... Let me not even start about tax brackets and other BS associated with marriage What does this even mean, lol? If you ask a question when you think there is already an "obvious answer", are you even really asking a question? It sounds more like pushing a modus operandi. Means the 'happily ever after' fairy tale when the 'ever after' in 50% of the cases is 8 years or less. Much less in many cases. I don't know about you, but this has not been my observation IRL. Also, IMO people with "Disney expectations" typically don't even make it to a long-term relationship or marriage. They're usually waiting for Prince or Princess Charming, whom no human being can possibly satisfy. Oh gosh, you don't have nagging girlfriends trying to convince their sweetie to get them THE ring, and even try to pick one themselves:lmao::lmao: Lucky you!!! I've seen this over (and over) again, and with enough pressure and passive aggressiveness many got THE gift (they selected themselves rofl) Link to post Share on other sites
LastStraw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) Totally!!! It is all woman-centered, the whole ceremony and time before. Dissolution though, is all man-centered... So obviously men are not as thrilled I think this is a novel arrangement, 100 years tops, and is not going to last much longer. Before that marriages were way more pragmatic and centered around practical needs of both parties. Btw when I see a non-virginal bride in a white dress I'm rolling on the floor laughing. Even more laughable - a guy picking up his 'new' bride that he lived with a coupla of years. You either pick a symbol and stick to what it represents, or ignore it all together. It does seem a bit odd that weddings are primarily for women, are pushed by women, defended by women, etc... While some men are truly thrilled to be married, At best most guys are mildly happy/apathetic or "meh" about it, and many are either dead set against it, or have been so scarred from getting their brains beat in a divorce court...<snip> Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Truncate quote Link to post Share on other sites
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