Is the whole institution of marriage built on a shaky foundation?

[central]

Monogamy is very difficult to sustain, given human nature. Some manage it, and they are either very self-disciplined, or are actually very content with their spouse and don't feel much temptation to stray.

 

IMO, monogamy should NOT be the default expectation. If that were true, people might make a much greater effort to keep their spouse happy if they value them. I don't see why a primary, committed relationship can't exist in conjunction with occasional affairs or a secondary relationship, whether long or short term. Jealousy is the primary reason this often doesn't work, but I think jealousy is a result of social conditioning, rather than an innate behavior or attitude. Jealousy CAN be overcome for many people if they try - people in the polyamorous community are a good example of this, and it also works for those in the swinging lifestyle.

[elaine567]

Jealousy is the primary reason this often doesn't work, but I think jealousy is a result of social conditioning, rather than an innate behavior or attitude.

I do not believe that, I think jealousy is a primal urge.

It is about defence of territory.

Allowing others to mate with your preferred choice is detrimental to your genes being passed on.

Allowing others to steal your resources by stealing your partner is detrimental to your own children. Mate guarding is therefore very important.

[chillii]

l dunno , when l was married 20yr, wondered the same.

Ex and l were head over heals and 5 times the couple of most yet even with that it was still hard being married.

Whole host of things for me. Even with us over time l started to wonder how two people could do it and last . Together all the time, 1 person, te pressures, life , finances, to keep being able to get along , even sharing a bed none stop. And sexually, l see threads all the time men only get married for regular intimacy but to me that's the craziest most bullshyt reason of all. It becomes damn hard sleeping with the one person all that time especially when looks start to go, kids, stresses, life, stoking the same fireplace all that time and especially being married through your younger years up to say 40s.

Maybe it should start at 40s , or 50s, and there'd be a lot less screwing round.

Anyway , as much as we were earlier , it all took it's toll and we didn't work out. But weirdly now 50s, l think l could handle being married next time if there is one. Seems like a much smarter time, a great time in fact , to settle in and cozy up with someone you love to me.

Edited February 18, 2019 by chillii

[chillii]

Mind you , the whole concept is suppose to be based on love and a mate for life. And sex as everyone seems to call it these days is suppose to be about making love from that love. l believe that if the love remains then the making love is loving someone you truly love whether you both be 30 or at the other end 70s. She's still that hot little 30yr old he fell in love with to him and he's still that 30yr old chunky wunky she fell for years ago too.

l've heard happily married older people talk like this, my dad was still chasing mum around late 70s, us kids saw it in them all the time. even during rough times between them growing up.

So l believe if the love and respect remains ,grows, then so can the marriage because your still what you always were to each other, hopefully even far more so ,and that's what it's suppose to be all about.

Or somem like that.

ps, l always thought my problem was that l just wasn't cut out for marriage back then, l think l could do much better at it now though.

Edited February 19, 2019 by chillii

[todreaminblue]

i believe in marriage, i believe in being monogamous, i believe most people will be tempted within their marriage to stray...its the nature of the beast

 

 

i also believe in marriage having a strong foundation.....because you can build a strong foundation together......i dont care what society thinks of marriage...its beautiful and right and true...i am fifty ...been engaged twice...never married....not for my choice not to marry.....just my life's path...

 

i still and will always believe in the sanctity and rightness of marriage.the spiritual emotional and physical connection .....and then the creation of family..regardless if i marry ...or not.......deb

[S2B]

The foundation is created - and based on things people put into it.

 

Truth, honor and respect help to build a strong foundation - without a few key ingredients it can’t be healthy.

[basil67]

This seems like a long argument in favour of allowing us to be selfish and ignoring what it is to be a good human.

 

If we were to abandon marriage and give in to our carnal desires, think of the outcome for our children with no stability in their lives. Only the most selfish of humans would put their children though this.

 

Edited to add: my partner and I aren't married. 27 years defacto this year. But even without the marriage certificate, we know how important it is for our children to come from a loving and stable home. A home can't be stable and loving if both parents are out shagging all and sundry.

[Els]

This seems like a long argument in favour of allowing us to be selfish and ignoring what it is to be a good human.

 

If we were to abandon marriage and give in to our carnal desires, think of the outcome for our children with no stability in their lives. Only the most selfish of humans would put their children though this.

 

Edited to add: my partner and I aren't married. 27 years defacto this year. But even without the marriage certificate, we know how important it is for our children to come from a loving and stable home. A home can't be stable and loving if both parents are out shagging all and sundry.

 

 

The funny thing is that the people complaining about this typically LIKE all the other trappings of modern society. They LIKE modern plumbing, they like freshly-showered women with soft skin and shaved body hair and who aren't dripping menstrual blood everywhere, they like not living in fear of the neighbour deciding to smash their face in with a rock while they're sleeping, they like being able to sit in cars and planes instead of being limited to where they can walk, they like 3 square meals a day instead of only eating whatever you could hunt. But marriage or monogamy or LTRs? Oh no, us humans weren't MADE for that.

 

 

I agree, the more I read this, the more I think it's all about "me me me". Wanting to have cake while eating it.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Elswyth

[Eternal Sunshine]

You are oversimplifying. It’s not all about sex and sexual monogamy.

 

My parents just celebrated 40 years of marriage. They are a success by external standards. Nobody was ever close to cheating. There was no physical or substance abuse. However, my father is extremely controlling. My mother is not allowed to wear makeup or clothes that aren’t approved by my father as “not flattering”. She always gives in and does what he says. She is not allowed to speak to men. I keep removing spyware apps from her phone that he keeps installing. They are together 24/7. They are either screaming at each other or not speaking at all. Anything could make my dad jelaous. My mum is basically just waiting for my dad to die so that she can have mental freedom for the last few years of her life. So yeah, if that’s a success, I shudder to think what failure looks like.

 

I have dated many divorced men and without an exception, they were all traumatised by their failed marriages.

 

So I totally agree with you - I can’t fanthom why anyone (male or female) would want to get married. I really have to wonder though - do most people have really easy lives that the worst part of being married is not being able to sleep with others..Hypothetical question.

[lana-banana]

As others have noted, this wasn't really presented as a good faith question. It doesn't sound like you are interested in hearing about good, happy marriages.

 

Marriage works when both people have the same plans, goals, and expectations. My parents have been very happily and loyally married for 43 years. Both sets of my grandparents made it to 60+ years of marriage, too. I am pretty new to this but I am relatively optimistic that my marriage has a good future, and we certainly don't regret it.

 

I have spent time in foreign countries where multiple wives are legal, but I met very few people who actually wanted more than one. I remember hearing "Always be good to your wife! Second wives, mistresses, they are exhausting!"

 

(By the way, the divorce rate has been falling since the 1990s. People get married now only because they genuinely want to, which in turn leads to longer and happier marriages. Go figure.)

[some_username1]

The irony is that marriage was seemingly invented for the benefit of men (and by proxy society as a whole).

[pepperbird]

OP,

If you don't want to be married, get a damn divorce. For someone who is so convinced his actions are fine, you sure spend a lot of time rationalizing them.

[LastStraw]

You are oversimplifying. It’s not all about sex and sexual monogamy.

 

^This. Sexual monogamy is a very small concern since um... let say it’s not strongly enforced, whoever wants to not keep it, there are ways - there have always been and will always be

 

But first and foremost: 40+ years marriages happen but are not the norm. I believe I read a statistics the average length of marriage is 8 years, meaning half of the marriages fail in under 8 years, some much much earlier. These who stay longer- there is the ‘go with the flow’, ‘why bother if it is still livable’, but mostly is people staying together for their kids.

 

So does marriage makes sense as an institution? Sort of. For child rearing. There are European countries that have already implemented laws if there are no kids in the picture, the modified marriage can be dissolved without a full divorce process, just the two parties sign and say buh bye to each other. In the US is harder but yet with prenups, it is still not that hard

 

I’ll totally do it before getting pregnant because my partner is old school, but even he knows from first hand experience that ‘forever’ is ‘until things get unbearable’. He’s surprisingly still pro-marriage although his last one turned into a s**t show, but since he was smart enough not to blend any assets and no kids in the picture, it wasn’t that hard to get out of it

 

And on the note ES made: long doesn’t mean good. Also good for the public doesn’t mean good for real. My grandparents made it 50+years but she hated him in her guts. My parents -30+ years but he was abusive in every possible way. Only reason both couples stayed together for that long (until the death of one party respectively) was that they thought that’s the right thing to do and wanted to save face in front of friends and family . I can sort of understand people staying together for their kids, but ones staying together to ‘look good’... LOL.

[Simple Logic]

Many people are unable to understand concepts like love, respect, commitment, self discipline, honesty and morality. Biology has nothing to do with that.

[Wallysbears]

I struggle to understand why people that "don't believe" in marriage or monogamy get married and pledge to be monogamous.

 

At least in the United States it isn't FORCED upon anyone - least of all men.

[pepperbird]

Many people are unable to understand concepts like love, respect, commitment, self discipline, honesty and morality. Biology has nothing to do with that.

True enough. If being married ( or in a committed, long term monogamous relationship) is not a good fit for someone, then all they have to do is not get married. For some of us, being married is the right fit. I've been married going on 22 years now and have never stepped out or even wanted to.

 

JMO, but part of the trouble with any sort of long term relationships people are becoming more selfish and maturing at a later date.

Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[CantGetEnuff]

@lana,

 

It's absolutely a good faith question.

 

I thought this could create a real discussion, and judging from a few comments, it has. I mean, surely people think about this stuff all the time.

[pepperbird]

<snip>I thought this could create a real discussion, and judging from a few comments, it has. I mean, surely people think about this stuff all the time.

Um, no. most people don't go around thinking about this sort of stuff all the time. They have lives to lead.

Seriously, it's obvious you don't want to be married, also what's with all this "discussion"? . If you don't the like constraints marriage is putting on you, then get a divorce!

[]

Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[lana-banana]

I didn't take it as a good faith question because you began by stating as fact that all men struggle to be monogamous. There's no evidence this is true. Moreover, if monogamy is your biggest obstacle to a solid marriage, then you either need to work out an arrangement or (I'd suggest) don't get married.

 

When my husband and I discuss possible marital issues, we talk about diverging career paths or how we might be changed by a lot of money. Cheating doesn't come up. Plenty of people can manage monogamy just fine, and for them the insitution of marriage is great. Again, if you think it's impossible, you shouldn't be married.

 

I think the responses here are tending towards judgmental because you're asserting everyone must be like you and the fundamental institution of marriage is inherently flawed, rather than accepting that hey, maybe you're the one with a specific problem.

[JuneL]

OP: If you get to design, what institution would dominate marriage? Should we form cults in which any man can have sex with any woman within the sane cult and they all raise the cult kids together?

 

I think your real issue is that you want to sow your wild oats and yet you can’t accept your wife or partner to do the same thing. Just be very very rich and/or very very powerful, then there’re women who would be willing to tolerate your behaviors.

[pepperbird]

Plenty of people can manage monogamy just fine, and for them the insitution of marriage is great. Again, if you think it's impossible, you shouldn't be married.

 

True enough. It's the right place for some, but for others, it's a bad fit. It reminds me of a couple I know. They had been living together a long time and wanted to get married. When the laws changed, they planned a lovely ceremony and reception, and have been together ever since.

 

For them, it was about making a formal commitment to each other, one that they valued enough to stand up in front of their family and friends. They didn't have to get married, but to them doing so showed the depth of their commitment to one another.

Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[CantGetEnuff]

@lana,

 

If you want to think that I am the only guy with this issue, or I'm in some small minority, you are free to think that. I don't control what people think.

 

The data says marriages "fail" a LOT...almost 50% have infidelity in many countries, and on top of that, you have tons of "unhappy" marriages where they grow apart and stay together for kids or finances. The failure rate is high.

This is not just me saying this. This is the data.

[LastStraw]

They had been living together a long time and wanted to get married.

...

They didn't have to get married, but to them doing so showed the depth of their commitment to one another.

 

Eh that's what you see, or they want you to see. It very well could be the lady (or the dude) nagged and nagged and nagged, and in the end the groom to be just gave up to regain his peace lol.

[Tamfana]

<snip>The data says marriages "fail" a LOT...almost 50% have infidelity in many countries, and on top of that, you have tons of "unhappy" marriages where they grow apart and stay together for kids or finances. The failure rate is high. This is not just me saying this. This is the data.

 

Aren't you really advocating for open marriage?

Edited February 19, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[lana-banana]

You don't need to be married or unmarried to be unhappy. Marriage doesn't solve problems any more than any other positive life development. Nobody said you were the only person to struggle with sexual fidelity, but it's not true that everyone does either. So framing it as "marriage is useless because it always fails and men can't be faithful" doesn't really advance anything, since it's a false premise.

 

You might have better luck if you asked what's the biggest factor in unhappy or broken marriages. I have a feeling it's more likely to be money than infidelity. Or maybe what you really want to ask is how many men actually cheat? Although you're not going to get an unbiased sample from this website.

 

By and large people choose to marry because they want to. I remember when just six months into our relationship I went to a wedding with my husband, who coolly informed me that ours would be better. I really like being married myself, even if it does make it obvious how sexist society can be. Plenty of people love traditional roles. I have a coworker was essentially born to be a dad. We joke that he came out of the womb with cargo shorts and sandals on.