Dearly Missing My AP / How Long Does the Pain Last?

[pepperbird]

Considering he was south of the border, I'm going to venture a big fat guess that she was looking for a 'rich' American to perhaps take care of her or even move her up to the States. These foolish American men think they're so 'hot' to these woman but the truth is, they're simply a way 'out' for a lot of them.

 

 

It happened to my brother. He was newly divorced and met a woman in Brazil.

 

She saw him coming a mile away. Their relationship ramped up from 0 to 100 really quickly, and since they only saw each other every few weeks when he was in her country for business, he wasn't around her enough to notice her off behaviors. She was pushing for him to move her back here, but what she didn't know ( and he never told her) is that he can speak and read passable Portuguese. Leaving her laptop open one day and him taking a look at the screen was enough to show him what she was really up to.

 

It was all a scam.

[Wallysbears]

Odds are that 'Selena' (if that was really even her name) is off to the next American guy she can find.

[Mike1111]

Wow, indeed a lot of wild thoughts on this thread, so it's probably useful to add some context to. In no particular order.

 

 

1) Yes, Selena (and of course that's not her real name -- I stated that in the original post) is very heartbroken. For real. How do I know? Geez, without going into all the gory details, trust me she's really hurt. Has nothing to do with my ego. I really wish she wasn't this distraught.

 

 

2) Yes, I have owned my actions. I'm certainly not trying to blame everything on my wife. I get it -- I need to change, be a different person. And I have/am. I need to correct my faults (yes I'm aware of them) and I need to be more accepting of my wife's faults. She in turn, needs to work on her faults where she can. And the whole catalyst for understanding the need to change is all the pain I have caused to both women, and myself. That's the tiny silver lining to all this trauma -- I see things differently. As in, try to figure out the best course for everyone -- and then commit to it/her.

 

 

3) Selena was not surreptitiously going through my wallet the next morning. She saw it sitting on the nightstand and asked if I had any pics of my son. I said "sure" and tried to flip quickly past the pics of my wife, but she saw them and asked who the woman was -- and that's where the lie came in.

 

 

4) Yes, I'm being totally honest with this forum group because it seems to help to talk about it. But everyone does jump to their own conclusions fast. But, I guess that's the price of posting.

 

 

5) No, Selena was not looking for a way to get the US, or any manner of immigration scam. In fact she often asked if there was any way I could get reassigned to our facility in Argentina. I also spent time around her relatives (adult children, sisters, etc.) and work colleagues and that allows you to very quickly you see into another person's "real" life. You can fake some things, but not an entire life.

 

 

6) No, I was not lying to Selena or intentionally misleading her about a life together. I genuinely thought that she and I would be a better match than my wife and I. And my wife and I proceeded in that direction. We worked amicably on a divorce settlement in which we split all our assets in half, worked to keep her in our house (we both love our simple house, but it certainly seemed fair that she should get to keep it and just buy me out. I also volunteered to do work on the house to help her with mechanical stuff she's not familiar with -- malfunctioning toilet, broken dryer, replacing a shingle, etc.) and worked on sufficient alimony so we could both be self sufficient (she has a good career, but we're not wealthy). So all three of us had kind of accepted that path and were working toward it (and paying lawyers for it!). BUT, I was became torn for the reasons I mentioned: I have a good bond with my wife (love her, but not "in love" with her, perhaps?) and I was worried that Selena might be biting off more than she could chew with the very dramatic changes she would have to make in her life. Then the Dr. Beam video really hit me. I don't know if he's a charlatan or not, but his video and article sure spoke to my exact emotions and concerns. So if he's a scammer, he's darn good at it. So, I came to the conclusion that my wife (if she wanted to) and I could try to build on our original bond, and I could perhaps save Selena from making a life mistake and ending up being unhappy. I was truly trying to think about what was best for both women. But that still entailed an immense amount of pain for everyone.

 

 

7) Why do so many people counsel instant divorce? I think that a knee-jerk reaction. If that's the right course, so be it. But there are a lot of ways to dishonor your marriage vows, and sex with another person is only one of many. I know a lot of couples who haven't had sex with anyone else, but they're running roughshod over their marriage vows in a multitude of other ways.

 

 

8) MountainGirl and Flowergirl (shoot, can't remember if those are the correct usernames) had some good insights into how to get over Selena. Boy, it's a tough balancing act -- to work on building the marriage my wife and I would like, while still having your mind drift over to missing Selena. It's not a willful thing, it just happens. Would be helpful if it didn't.

 

 

9) My wife certainly has the option to call it quits -- the divorce filings are merely on hold. But because she sees some opportunities for us, she's open to giving it a shot.

 

 

10) Of course I'm open to the possibility that my wife's lack of active lovemaking could be due to her not getting what she needs from me (speaking of the sex perspective). We've spoken often of doing whatever it takes to me her needs (toys, oral, positions, more kissing -- WHATEVER she needs, I'll take a shot at it -- and like it). But I really don't think that's the problem (and she agrees).

 

 

--Mike

[MountainGirl111]

Thx for replying Mike1111.

 

The more I think about OLD the more I think of how dangerous it really can be...anyone can put up a profile and put in false details about who/what they are/what they are looking for. You wanted some adult fun; she wanted an LTR...you both ended up getting something different than what the profiles said. So, again, I may sound old fashioned, but I think especially in this day/age people need to be cautious about who they open up to, get together with, and especially have sex with....(now I sound like your mother). And, Selena could have asked to look at pictures in your wallet, but she could also have snooped in it and taken a few credit cards and some cash while you were sound asleep after a good romp in the sack.

 

OK. Enough On That.

 

I think you were sexually frustrated and that's understandable. I always maintain there is a reason for every behavior. So, that can bring us around to your wife and WHY she is so passive with sex. I don't know her, but you know her well and this is something that can be worked on through MC or with a sex therapist.

 

I truly believe people in general need to be able to have open, honest discussions about sex without feeling ashamed. There has LONG been SHAME attached for many folks. Who knows, maybe your wife had a bad experience with sex in her past. Maybe she just doesn't like her body and that can inhibit a person from really enjoying sex and take away from being uninhibited. A good sex therapist can work with you both on that; ways for you to coax her and ways for her to "let go". There's nothing wrong with fantasy. Everyone does it; both men and women. Everyone looks at others.

 

Another concern is that you are going to be so forever "guilty" that it's going to interfere with how you approach sex in the future as well. But it's totally okay to have open, frank discussions about sex with your wife and nothing to be ashamed of.

 

I really don't see you as a person who totally disregards others' feelings just to get what you want. I see you as trying to repair damage to others. What I don't want to see is so much EXCESSIVE GUILT that you no longer desire anything with anyone ever again. That would be a travesty.

 

I pretty much think we each CREATE our own happiness regardless of what anyone else is doing! I firmly believe that. So, even though we may be in relationships with others, it's the relationship with ourselves that comes first and foremost. If the relationship with ourselves is not well intact and healthy it's going to impact all our other relationships.

 

In the healing process....it's important to tend to those wounds as if you're tending the sore paw of a favorite puppy dog someone gave to you and you've bonded with. These things take time/attention; lots of it. TLC. We can't just ignore these wounds and wish they would just "go away". When something is really INFECTED...we may need to get more aggressive. Ok, that's enough from me.

 

If you want more tips about dealing with unwanted THOUGHTS I've got some more strategies up my sleeve....

Edited January 31, 2019 by MountainGirl111

[MountainGirl111]

Many people actually have thought disorders. Racing thoughts. Obsessive thoughts. Sluggish thoughts. Paranoid thoughts....you get my drift. You can't stop thinking about Selena. Have you gotten any real help for that? Some people just can't seem to shut the thoughts off. Obsessive thoughts can lead to OCD...which I don't think is necessarily bad if it's mild. But more profound OCD. can seriously interfere with our daily lives, productivity, overall functioning...you get my drift. I've struggled with OCD and speaking for myself it often stems from stress and anxiety. So managing stress is HUGE. The reality is that many people tend to manage stress by seeking out ways to "blow off steam". Some of those methods are more unhealthy and risky than others.

 

I actually have had to talk to my Dr. about racing thoughts at night that can keep me awake. Most of it is stress related. Some Dr. are good about addressing these things and others not so good. They want to give you a pills that will make it "better".

[mark clemson]

Hi, Mike - The below is all/only my person opinion FWIW:

 

Kudos for keeping such an even keel and responding when folks seem to be disparaging people you care about. Their thoughts were not completely unreasonable, given the situation you described, but it's good you clarified rather than "biting back" or simply leaving.

 

That said, a couple of points:

 

- Being in love doesn't shut off the rest of your brain. So, it certainly possible in my opinion for a person to really really like someone AND also be gold-digging or green-card fishing. Possible to be both. It sounds like that really WASN'T the case for you, which is nice. I understand Argentina is a nice country with a decent economy and high standard of living, which aligns as well. NOT Honduras or similar. That's probably why your company's been sending you there in the first place.

 

- Your wife does sound unusually low-key about all of this - really it sounds somewhat odd. Is it possible that she is one of those folks who is content with a marriage of convenience/transactional marriage? Those folks are out there. Thing is if one member of the couple is content with that and the other needs more, that causes real issues and needs to be addressed if you're going to R effectively.

 

- I think that some folks here have difficulty accepting it when you say things like:

 

That's the tiny silver lining to all this trauma -- I see things differently. As in, try to figure out the best course for everyone -- and then commit to it/her.

 

 

Because this is after-the-fact and after putting your wife through the (difficult for most people) experience of being a party to you sorting out what step to take. For many folks (but not all, and perhaps your wife is one of the few) this would be soul-crushing to say the least. You've said you're genuinely remorseful (and I believe you) but perhaps it doesn't come across as strongly in your posts as you think?

 

- Last but not least, consider switching to a different project than the Argentina one at work. This would be with the goal of avoiding re-triggering your limerence and helping to maintain full NC. Maybe it could be a win/win situation (for you) where you move on to something even better at work while furthering your NC goal?

 

My two cents.

Edited January 31, 2019 by mark clemson
clarity

[Mike1111]

Mark Clemson:

 

 

Yes, I'm fully confident in Selena's motives. Again, having met relatives and work colleagues, you get a pretty clear picture of the real person.

 

 

My wife being "low key" or unusually accepting of the affair: Nope, that's my lack giving the forum a clear picture. Indeed this was "soul-crushing" time for her. The initial months after Dday (recall I confessed after 4 months when the guilt was too much) were extremely difficult for her (and me). Crying, loss of productivity, depression symptoms -- the works. And I suffered with her because seeing someone you care about in that state is in itself soul-crushing. The fact that I caused it doesn't change it. But I did still feel like Selena and I would be a better match, so we slowly proceeded with the divorce.

 

 

The "silver lining" quote. Well here's where it can get touchy. Indeed I'm genuinely remorseful (really). But I'm remorseful because two wonderful people were put through the emotional wringer (and me too), not because I broke my marriage vows (and here's where I get hammered by the forum). As I mentioned previously, I see a lot of couples that have maintained the letter of their vows, but not the intent. Great -- you haven't had sex with anyone but your spouse, but you treat your spouse like crap. Nice fidelity to the marriage vows. Now before everyone gets out their poison pens (or poison keyboards), please realize I'm not trying to blame my wife for the affair. But I am alluding to the tiny silver lining. She (and I) needed a wakeup call. Many times over the past years I've told her that if we don't fix our problems, we're going to end up divorced. And I'm including me in the necessary fixes. But I don't think my wife (Diana) ever took it seriously. I saw the threat, but I just don't think she did. So that's no excuse for an affair (but perhaps it's an excuse for a divorce? Still soul-crushing), but as I said, we're both thinking in a whole different manner. And I'm not saying that my wife and I will stay together -- I'm just not sure we're a good match, even though we do care about each other a lot. And have raised a good, well-adjusted 18-year old son. And I do wonder if Selena would be a better match. But we're going into this "repair effort" wide-eyed. We'll do the best we can and see how it turns out.

 

 

Lastly, you comment about switching out of Argentina. Yep, that's a tough one because I'm very integral to the project, not really anyone else that can go down there. So I have many trips scheduled there this year. And, indeed, I see that as the acid test on my commitment -- can I be on a separate continent from my wife, be 2 km from Selena, and maintain NC? Yikes, that's going to be difficult -- but something I just have to do.

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts. Appreciated.

[pepperbird]

op,

It's statements like this

 

 

"he initial months after Dday (recall I confessed after 4 months when the guilt was too much) were extremely difficult for her (and me). Crying, loss of productivity, depression symptoms -- the works. And I suffered with her because seeing someone you care about in that state is in itself soul-crushing.

 

 

 

She's just crying, maybe sluggish and sad, not so bad...but you? you were experiencing soul crushing pain?

 

 

This is what I've been trying to get at. I don't think you're a bad guy, but you really don't understand just how much you may have hurt your wife.

 

First, you cheat on her. Then you do the above. Then you go through all the monitions of divorce and the pan that was causing her, the you see some guy in a video and suddenly, you care?

Really, think about that.

[Mike1111]

Pepperbird,

 

Perhaps you missed this sentence regarding my wife that was immediately before your quote.

 

Indeed this was a "soul-crushing" time for her.

 

Yes, I really do get how much this hurt my wife.

[Missedmistress]

Lastly, you comment about switching out of Argentina. Yep, that's a tough one because I'm very integral to the project, not really anyone else that can go down there. So I have many trips scheduled there this year. And, indeed, I see that as the acid test on my commitment -- can I be on a separate continent from my wife, be 2 km from Selena, and maintain NC? Yikes, that's going to be difficult -- but something I just have to do.

 

Mike - I'm also on a different continent from my xAP and when the A was still full-blown, had an opportunity to join a project at work close to where he lives, he didn't know, I was going to surprise him and boom, DDay happened in between so I never got to tell him.

 

I ended up going there anyway (couldn't back out of the project at this point) but we were already in NC, it was damn hard not to reach out and tell him - he had no idea I was so close to him physically - because I knew this would have been devastating to both our families (his wife was an emotional wreck already).

 

Anyway, when I was out there, I purposefully visited places we went to together, I reclaimed them to myself, it was sad for a minute, but then it wasn't. I'm going back this year again for work and this time I don't have those thoughts like it was 'our' secret place etc. but I'm looking forward to catching with new friends I made there in and outside of work.

 

It will be hard for you but you just have to decide and stick to NC and find something to distract yourself with in weak moments, like gym etc.

[pepperbird]

Pepperbird,

Yes, I really do get how much this hurt my wife.

 

 

Again, no you don't

 

 

I know you probably wonder why I won't let this go or that I'm not adressing your feelings. There's actually a good reason for that.

 

 

For some bs ( betrayed spouses) the full impact of what their ws (wayward spouse) has done really doesn't hit until all the "Drama" has come and gone. The drama in itself can use up so much mental energy . Once that is over ( and it does end), the bs is often left with no distractions from the full emotional impact.

 

It can feel as if the original wound is happening all over again, and that can look different for different people. Some find the sadness overwhelming, some can deal with it, and some bs get very, very angry.

 

You've made the decision to try and reconcile with your wife. There is a really good sticky note at the top of this forum section directed to ws. It explains some of what your wife may be going through and also your job in the reconciliation process.

 

 

One thing you do constantly is blame your wife for your actions. I know you try to phrase it carefully, but you're still doing it. Right now, that has no place in the discussion. Of course, at some point in the process, you and your wife are going to have to discuss your problems as a couple, and that means you will have to include your actions ( not just cheating) as well. Are you willing to do this?

 

 

 

Think of it this way. Right now, your marriage at in the ER in triage. Just like a doctor, you and your wife need to treat the biggest issue first, which will be your affair and the fallout from it. It's like if a person had a heart attack for reasons like a bad diet, low exercise, etc. The most important immediate concern is to save the person's life and get them to a stable place. Once this is achieved, then the underlying issues get addressed. Sir, you are so far from that point right now you may not be able to see it with the Hubble Telescope.

 

To sum it up, as a WS, your biggest job is to decide whether or not you want to stay married and why. You also have to ask yourself if you can put your own feelings aside to be there for your wife. That means no pining in front of her, any reminders of Selena are removed from your home, any contact information for her is removed from your computer, phone, whatever and she is also blocked on social media, your email and from contacting you via text or other means. Let your wife see you do this. If Selena tries to contact you and you find out, ignore it and let your wife know. If she continues, you may even have to send her a "no contact" request.

 

You are also going to have to rebuild trust, and that can take a long time. Really, it makes sense. She trusted you before, and you broke it. In her shoes, how woudl you feel? Not trusting you means you are going to have to be completely open and honest with her, not even little white lies when it has to do with your affair. If your wife asks you a question and you think the answer will hurt her, let her know that before you respond and make sure she is ready to hear it. Don't try and filter this for her...allow her to do so. That's going to be hard. Do you feel you are up to the challenge? Some people aren't, and that's okay. It's better to recognize that than limp along.

 

 

 

There is a lot more you are going to have to do. Some call it "heavy lifting", and I guess it is. You've decided that your marriage is worth saving. You. For it to work, you are going to have to push your own sadness to the side and really face what you have done. You talk a lot about how hurt you are and I'm not disputing that. The difference lies in that your pain is due to your own choices. It is the end result of a series of decisions you made. Your wife has had all of this thrown in her lap. It was caused by the one person in the world she should have been able to trust to not hurt her intentionally. You did that, and you can't even claim it was an accident ( it never is:rolleyes:) or a one off. You actively sought out an affair. Does your wife know this? If not, she should. She needs to know that, at least twice, you have cheated on her and at least one time, it was something you went looking for.

 

 

 

If the roles were reversed and you knew she had cheated on you, and at least one time, it was something she went looking for, how would you feel? How would you feel if your wife came back to you and asked for a second chance? What would you need from her for that to happen? What would the process look like? How could she show you she still loves you, you can trust her and that she really and truly wants to help you heal?

 

Honestly, in spite of me giving you a hard time, I do think that, underneath all this, you're not a bad guy. I think that part of you really does realize the damage you've caused.

[Prudence V]

There’s a lot of beating up on Selena going on in his thread. As a citizen of a third world country, I was also accused (by my H’s xBW) of being a gold digger, of using him to get into his country, etc. Nothing could have been further from the truth! Though we now both have the right to live in each other’s country, the plan (especially after Brexit) is to live long term in mine, which is far nicer than his. And it sounds like Selena has the same kind of orientation. Are you in he US, Mike? There seems to be a misperception common to people in the US and UK that everyone wants to live there. Most of us don’t. But I’m guessing you know Selena isn’t after your money / life in the US, and I’m guessing by the way you defend her here that you’re not being persuaded she’s some kind of human leech. If anything, you’re the one who leeched off her.

 

This, I think, is the crux of it:

 

I see things differently. As in, try to figure out the best course for everyone -- and then commit to it/her.

 

You need to figure out not which woman suits you better, but which relationship allows you to be the version of yourself that feels most authentic. Whether that’s putting up with a shallow / fake / unsatisfactory M to be the best parent you can be for your kid, or being a part-time parent to your kid so you can be in a truly fulfilling, awesome R with someone you truly click with... or being on your own, reconnecting with your own values, and forging honest and authentic relationships with your kid, your family, your friends and any future lovers.

 

It’s not about “what’s best for everyone” - that is a contradictory position, as what’s best for one is likely to be worst for someone else. You cannot please everyone. You need to make sure your kid is OK, whichever way, and you nthen Ed to ensure that you are happy with the choice you make. Anything else will ultimately be unsustainable. You have one life - use it wisely.

[Missedmistress]

It’s not about “what’s best for everyone” - that is a contradictory position, as what’s best for one is likely to be worst for someone else. You cannot please everyone. You need to make sure your kid is OK, whichever way, and you nthen Ed to ensure that you are happy with the choice you make. Anything else will ultimately be unsustainable. You have one life - use it wisely.

 

THIS. Don't fake your life just so you don't 'hurt' someone else.

[Jane Deaux]

I think limerance and your view of it from one perspective from someone else's opinion may be the wrong thing to base the next decade+ on. You choosing someone you aren't in love with just based out of familiarity and comfort obligation is not sustainable. And you will end up miserable in the long run.

 

In 5 years you will wish you had just stayed the course of divorce right now I believe. You don't sound like you are staying for the right reasons, which I believe is ultimately, Happiness, for everyone. Three people are more likely to end up miserable. You are making a choice based on another man's feelings and life choices. Just because he decided on a path doesn't mean it has to be everyones. Some people will argue and say the right choice is to choose your marriage. But I disagree. Not when you aren't in love.

 

I'm not saying the right choice is an affair. But you already made that decision. Maybe I am wrong in my interpretation, but usually once you feel the kind of love, which I don't personally feel is limerance if you read about it more, I don't believe you can ever force that kind of love for someone that you aren't as compatible with. And essentially you are trying to force being IN love. Sad all around.

 

I hope I am wrong and you all end up deliriously happy.

Edited February 3, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Paragraphs

[pepperbird]

It’s not about “what’s best for everyone”

 

This statement is quite true.

 

Op, why do you feel it's to you to decide this anyway? Why isn't it up to your wife and ow to decide what's best for them?

 

Does your wife know how you really feel? What would she say if she read what you've written on here?

 

If you're still struggling, try this exercise. Imagine you have an adult son in your shoes. What would you advise him?

 

 

In the end, what you're doing isn't sustainable. Unless your wife has full knowledge of your feelings, it's also dishonest. I'm not saying you should be cruel to your wife, but unless you can say with 100 percent absolute honesty that your emotional conflict won't continue to hurt your spouse, then do you really feel like you have any business staying with her? Now, if she fully knows your feelings ( and I doubt she does) and she still chooses to stay married, then it's up to you. Do you feel you can be the kind of husband she deserves or will you always pine? If your answer is " I don't know", how long do you feel it's fair of you to ask your wife to wait while you figure it out?

 

Would you consider separating while you try to work out the problem? That way, you can do what you need to do, your wife can explore what being single might look like for her and maybe even meet a guy she would like to be with and love, and you can both go form there. It won't automatically mean divorce, and while it's usually best for a reconciling couple to be together, in some cases, it's actually helpful. It was for us.

Edited February 1, 2019 by pepperbird

[Mike1111]

Gee, some really good thoughts here.

 

MissedMistress:

"THIS. Don't fake your life just so you don't 'hurt' someone else."

 

So, you seem to advocate perhaps parting amicably with my wife and pursuing a life with Selena? (or am I misunderstanding?). Yet you seem to have been in a remarkably similar situation with a distant affair and an AP you were in love with (though it sounds like your were both married), and it sounds like you choose to remain in your marriage after Dday. And you seem happy with your decision.

 

Jane Deaux:

"Some people will argue and say the right choice is to choose your marriage. But I disagree. Not when you aren't in love."

 

But my big internal question was whether the love I and Selena feel/felt (limerance?) is sustainable. The video I watched and countless other people all say that "new love" fades and is replaced by something more durable and sustainable, but not nearly as romantic as that initial love. And that does seem to be the case when I look around at couples. Do long-term happy couples actually stay "in love" or do they simply develop a strong long-term deep caring bond for the other person? I suppose I'm just asking if being with Selena is like chasing a leprechaun, when actually I already have that long-term caring bond with my wife?

 

Prudence V:

"Anything else will ultimately be unsustainable. You have one life - use it wisely."

 

You too seem to argue for "following the heart". I'm just not sure the heart always makes the best long-term decisions.

 

Pepperbird:

"Do you feel you can be the kind of husband she deserves or will you always pine? If your answer is " I don't know", how long do you feel it's fair of you to ask your wife to wait while you figure it out?"

 

Excellent question. Of course one of the problems with a "lost love" is the tendency to view it through rose-colored glasses, whereas a present relationship (my current marriage) has all the normal prickly problems up front and readily apparent. I'm certain the answer to your question is that "yes" I can be the husband she deserves, but the pining part is tough. We're at the point in life where regrets are hard to fix. Well, one thing is easy, we both have a very close relationship with our son and want his last 8 months at home to be as good as the previous 17 years (thus my original plan to keep the affair secret until he left for school -- not the wisest plan in the world, but had good intentions), so neither of us want to separate or divorce before August. And it's not a matter of asking my wife to wait for me to get over Selena. I haven't asked for that, or begged forgiveness, or any of that -- we've just both concluded that we're not sure we want to throw away 25 years together.

 

But I wobble when I read posts from women who tend toward the "carpe diem" point of view. But, whose to say that seizing the day isn't trying to live a great life with my wife.

 

So, here's a question for the group:

I've seen/heard of a fair number of successful second marriages. And some people point to that as evidence that someone in my position should part amicably with my wife and attempt a life with Selena. BUT, I don't think I know of any second marriages that have been forged out of an affair -- the couples I know of were just divorced and met someone else later. So the questions is: Can a successful marriage be built on the ruins of a destroyed previous marriage? Or would the guilt be too much to bear? As in, yes, you're happy with your current partner, but you had to crush someone else to attain this happiness. Is that sustainable. For me, I don't know.

 

PsuCowboy was pretty clear in his thoughts on this. He said "no." He would have to be divorced and on his own for a while before he would be comfortable attempting a new relationship. That he couldn't imagine an immediate life with the AP he loved -- even though he loved her deeply.

 

Thanks,

Mike

[Missedmistress]

Gee, some really good thoughts here.

 

MissedMistress:

"THIS. Don't fake your life just so you don't 'hurt' someone else."

 

So, you seem to advocate perhaps parting amicably with my wife and pursuing a life with Selena? (or am I misunderstanding?). Yet you seem to have been in a remarkably similar situation with a distant affair and an AP you were in love with (though it sounds like your were both married), and it sounds like you choose to remain in your marriage after Dday. And you seem happy with your decision.

 

Actually I’m not not advocating anything. Certainly not that you run to your AP at this point because you would hurt both of them more again.

 

I have more circumstances I won’t go into detail about but yes, one of them my xAP being married. That’s beside the point. I loved him yes, and still do but I don’t want to be with him, I never wanted to leave my husband for him for the reasons you mention. I told him that too, never lied about it even during the fog. It would have ruined a lot more lives and I simply can’t have this on my conscience. Like you, I can’t just walk away in the sunset on the ruins of (in my case) two relationships.

 

I wouldn’t say I’m happy with the situation though, I’m broken and doing a lot of work on myself and I don’t know where I’ll come out but I’ll give my H a fair chance and drama free divorce if that’s going to be the end result. I’m happy I’m not a cheater any more if that counts.

 

I think you and your wife have different ideals about marriage. She is settled with you for life, obvs will degrade herself to snap you back into line so she can continue with her plan. But you want more, you always have.

 

I think you really don’t love your wife the way you want to love and be loved, I know I felt it too, nothing compares to that. Your kid is leaving soon, it will be you and her for the rest of your life. Why stay? Have you decided that companionship is sufficient for you from here on out?

[elaine567]

I think you really don’t love your wife the way you want to love and be loved, I know I felt it too, nothing compares to that. Your kid is leaving soon, it will be you and her for the rest of your life. Why stay? Have you decided that companionship is sufficient for you from here on out?

OK but he needs to make up his mind PDQ, as allowing his wife to think there is a future and allowing her to tie herself in knots trying to accept the cheating, to find after all that hurt, angst and upset, he walks out anyway is hardly fair...

[Amethyst68]

The stats you were looking for.

 

Probability of affairs leading to marriage 3-5% with 75% (or more) going on to divorce. The stats also say that a large percentage of people who leave for their AP regret it. The numbers are freely available online.

 

Of course there are always exceptions. There are posters on here who have gone on to be in a relationship with their AP just as there are ones who have reconciled or divorced.

 

I agree you should make a decision soon and commit to it. It will not be fair to your wife if you let her continue to invest in this marriage if you're planning to leave.

[Mike1111]

Elaine and Amethyst:

 

Elaine -- you're absolutely right about making a decision. Or -- to be balanced -- allowing my wife to make the decision. I'm not the end-all, be-all decision maker here. We're (my wife and I) just not sure how/if to proceed.

 

Amethyst: 3-5% ??? Yikes. And 75% of those fail? So assuming the high end of marriage (5%), that means in total that about 1% of affairs result in a lasting, durable marriage. Those are some pretty stark numbers.

 

And interestingly, very similar to what Joe Beam says in his video. You know, it seems like a really good, heartfelt video, so I'll throw in a link to it here in case it can help someone. It's 16 minutes long and I believe worth watching. The key is that it is about an affair with someone you love (not just a fling). And you mention "of course there are exceptions . . . " Yep, and that's exactly what the video warns about -- everyone thinks theirs will be the exception, they will be the ones that "make it". Odds heavily stacked against it.

 

 

--Mark

Edited February 2, 2019 by Mike1111

[Jane Deaux]

I watched that video before and while I can see and agree with what he is saying is right for him I think it doesn't make it right for everyone.

 

Second marriages, especially between older people generally work out better after a divorce between two people who found they weren't compatible or grew apart. Statistics show. People are more likely to know what they are more compatible with and what they want and need in a partner. And maybe the Super strong passion dissipates some, because that is not sustainable, but I do believe 100% that the love is different and happier when a couple is truly in love versus just loving and caring for each other. I truly believe that even though the passion at the level in the beginning isn's sustainable that passion and love remain at a level that brings joy and happiness for the remainder of your lives.

 

Based on my own experience in relationships and first marriages. And falling in love since then. And reading about others experiences, whether first marriages between two partners who have truly been in love their whole life, or a second marriage where a couple finally found their true love. Granted I am only 38, but I do believe in true passionate love being sustainable, rather than settling for an attachment and obligation. A happier life in the long run.

 

And if you aren't in love, and you have divorce proceedings started, why would you not at least try with a woman that you feel madly in love with, and IF you only ended up with a similar love then what have you lost. But when you end up with a happiness beyond what some people ever get to have, then you have gained. And your current wife has freedom to find someone that feels about her how you feel about the woman you are madly in love with.

 

I just do not agree with people staying in a marriage out of a fear of hurting someone and obligation and history. In the end, you've wasted more time and more people have endured more hurt.

 

If you are truly in love with your wife you would know it. You do not seem to be and that leads to dissatisfaction in the long run.

 

Again. If you stay I do hope I am wrong and everyone ends up so happy in the long run.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Jane Deaux

[Amethyst68]

Second marriages as a whole have a high rate of failure. The OP asked specifically about second marriages born from affairs. IMO (and the resources I read) it's the additional stressors which lead to the extremely high fall rate.

 

Most new marriages don't start off with the levels of destruction that affair ones do. At least one participant is leaving a former spouse whose life they have probably devastated. Add children into that, not to mention loss of image and integrity to extended family and friends. Their employment may be impacted (again again with loss of integrity). Add that into alimony, CM, day to day living etc not

to mention a lot of cheaters never really trust their partners deep down. It's the old, they cheated with you so they'll cheat on you.

 

IMO it's not really surprising that affair marriages don't really last, it's not all about 'love' it's real life and consequences. As I said before, there are exceptions, some do last. In the OP's case you have to add in cultural and language differences, plus one party having to leave their entire family and friend support network to move to a foreign country. Not to mention I think you might find it more difficult than you think for OW to come to you. Residency is not a given these days, not even for spouses!

 

Now this is not to say you should stay in an a marriage you're not happy in. If that's true please be honest, separate from your wife and then be single for a while (and I don't mean a couple of weeks). Concentrate on repairing your bond with your son. If you do decide to stay married, then you have to commit fully.

 

Oh and either way do not go back to Argentina, while it may do your ego good to think it no-one is irreplaceable or indispensable. There is always someone who can take over for you, after all what if you were in a serious accident. Work on this project wouldn't stop would it? You're giving yourself an excuse to be near OW which, if you're honest, will likely end up in the affair starting up again.

[elaine567]

Elaine and Amethyst:

 

Elaine -- you're absolutely right about making a decision. Or -- to be balanced -- allowing my wife to make the decision. I'm not the end-all, be-all decision maker here. We're (my wife and I) just not sure how/if to proceed.

Is that not just passing the buck...?

 

 

Those in affairs are often conflict avoiders. They will not make clean hard decisions, so they duck out and have extra marital sex and have affairs instead... When it comes to the crunch they cannot even choose the OW and make a clean break. No, they try to keep both plates spinning in the air for maximum hurt... It is selfish and cruel.

 

Your wife needs a clean hard decision, she doesn't need to be strung along by you whilst you pine for your OW, or source out another one...

a complete waste of her time.

[Prudence V]

 

Prudence V:

"Anything else will ultimately be unsustainable. You have one life - use it wisely."

 

You too seem to argue for "following the heart". I'm just not sure the heart always makes the best long-term decisions.

 

Nope. I’m not a “follow the heart” person. I’m a “make a rational decision based on all the information” person. What I’m advising you to do, rather than “what’s best for everyone” - an impossible task - is work out what you consider best for *yourself* (taking care of your kid, obvs). And then do what you need to do. That is the only sustainable lin of action.

 

 

 

But my big internal question was whether the love I and Selena feel/felt (limerance?) is sustainable. The video I watched and countless other people all say that "new love" fades and is replaced by something more durable and sustainable, but not nearly as romantic as that initial love. And that does seem to be the case when I look around at couples. Do long-term happy couples actually stay "in love" or do they simply develop a strong long-term deep caring bond for the other person? I suppose I'm just asking if being with Selena is like chasing a leprechaun, when actually I already have that long-term caring bond with my wife?

 

I’ve no idea what your Rwith “Selena” is like or whether it’s susainable, but if you’re asking whether hot, passionate love is sustainable - of course it is. But it needs to be chosen as a priority. If you have kids, that typically becomes the priority and your R slips to second (or lower) place. That’s a choice. If you don’t have kids, it’s easier to choose to prioritise your R.

 

My H and I have been M more than a decade, in a R more than a decade and a half. It’s as passionate as ever - but my kids and his are all long grown and out of the house, so we’ve never had to make those choices. We could always put each other, and the R, first.

 

 

 

I've seen/heard of a fair number of successful second marriages. And some people point to that as evidence that someone in my position should part amicably with my wife and attempt a life with Selena. BUT, I don't think I know of any second marriages that have been forged out of an affair -- the couples I know of were just divorced and met someone else later. So the questions is: Can a successful marriage be built on the ruins of a destroyed previous marriage? Or would the guilt be too much to bear? As in, yes, you're happy with your current partner, but you had to crush someone else to attain this happiness. Is that sustainable. For me, I don't know.

 

 

We’re an example of a very successful M, forged from an A. Our circumstances were probably different to yours, though. H was with his xBW around 30 years, but it had never been “loving” and they’d had a prior separation. He had taken her back “for the kids” and was basically biding his time till the kids were grown. Then we met, fell in love, and he left the M and we got together full-time (we lived in different countries prior) and have been together ever since. XBW now has a new R of her own, so everyone is happier. But we don’t live in a judgmental country, we had the support of his entire family, and I think her own behaviour turned any guilt H felt into anger, so that wasn’t an issue (plus he had good IC). No regrets (well, he wishes he’d left sooner, but TBH I didn’t think he was ready to leave before.) If you’re feeling guilty, speak to a counsellor. Whichever way you choose, guilt will bug you. You need your choice to be a positive one, not one you live in fear of regretting - whichever way you choose.

[pepperbird]

op,

I know you see this as choosing between two relationship. Try re framing it ads choosing the rest of your life. What do you have to offer either of these two women?

Right now, your biggest questions should be about yourself. If you want to be a good relationship partner in the future, you need to figure out what it is in you that allowed you to go behind someone elses back with two different people.

 

If you do decide to end your marriage, doesn't it make sense to make sure you get yourself into a place where you can be open and honest? The same is true should you decide to stay married.