Shortage of good men? or good-looking men?

[some_username1]

I tried to highlight the most important parts of your post. A lot of guys know to stay away from girls like your friend there. Years of dating douchebags takes its toll on ladies, and generally speaking, they are not so pleasant to date for the guy who comes after.

 

When a woman keeps running into so-called players, it basically means she is dating guys who can do better than her. At least, these guys think they can. I am no player, but you can bet your paycheck that a few women I met before my GF likely think I am. Just because I hook up with you and bounce because I don't think you are GF material doesn't make me a player. Much the same with those guys your friend meets.

 

Basically, it isn't that there is a serious lack of "quality" men for her, it's just that those quality men don't want her. That's why she thinks they are all players.

 

Exactly! This is a typical conflation that women come up with- "he just hooked up with me so he must be a player!" It is an uncomfortable truth that the man may have just decided that the woman wasn't a 'quality' woman and to be fair if it keeps happening then you need to take some introspection and look at the kind of men you are dating and what you are offering to encourage them to stay. No man is going to run from a woman who is hot, classy, discerning taste in men, has her own income and doesn't expect charity on dates and is good in bed. Sadly for one reason or another most women (at least that i see IRL or on these boards) don't seem to bring that to the table. The mindset is always "what can you do for me?!" Instead of "how can we complement each other?".

 

A previous poster made the telling observation that the kind of men who are looking for a relationship are "unattractive" which brings to mind my personal belief that women are arch self saboteurs when it comes to dating and the question "where have all the good men gone" is analogous with the classic Marx quote:

"I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member."

[Cookiesandough]

Couldn't add to my previous post.

 

Guys won't complain too much now...Unless they are the types that never get attention/laid, the rest are pretty content with the new setup...Sex is easy and no commitments necessary...If the guy is lazy and unmotivated all he has to do is find a woman to carry him...They'll do it...I hear women even on this site here that say they are willing to enter that arrangement...I know guys that are currently in this type of relationship...The women go out and beat their brains in, while their h/so's just dick around the house...Go to the gym, take care of the dog...take naps...They may take on a low stress job just for some spending cash, but are no longer the donkeys...

 

If you are a desirable guy right now, the world is pretty much your oyster...

 

TFY

This was my ex. I brought in more money than him but he still worked. He was like a sugar baby and I was fine with this since he was very good looking. He was soooo desiriable. Mmmm. Cottamn. I'd do it again every time.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[somanymistakes]

This shows their lack of understand, knowledge, ability to

reason clearly, act in societies best interests.

 

Men are not bought by women.

 

Honey, if you think marrying a man has no cost for a woman...

 

Let's say you believe in Traditional Marriage. You Man. You Provider. She Woman. She Keep House, Raise Babies, Give Sex. And you find a woman who is totally into that kind of thing (they exist) and marry her.

 

You think that's only a cost for you and not a cost for her? You're giving up a share of your money because You Man Provider and you must now provide for two (or more, if kids) instead of one. What about her, though? Well, she has to give up a lot of her TIME. She now has to cook and clean for two (or more) instead of one. She's probably had to give up her HOME, since you're Traditional so either you've moved her into your house or you've bought a new house but you certainly wouldn't move in with her. She's had to give up her FREEDOM, because in your Traditional setting I assume you want her to check in with you all the time, to not have any male friends at all, and not to go out and have fun with her single female friends either. Which of course also means she has to give up ATTENTION, she's no longer allowed to be the belle of the ball, courted and admired by all, she now is meant to share her light only with you. And for the sad percentage of women who don't like sex all that much but want to please their partners, she has to give up her body, too.

 

Marriage has a cost. Married men have better health than single men, they're better looked-after. Married women have slightly lower health than single women, as they're under more strain doing all the looking-after.

 

Why does she do all this? Because she thinks the man is worth it. Same reason as he marries her. They both make sacrifices, they both make commitment, they both consent to the arrangement. If he 'bought' her, she 'bought' him as well.

 

Unless you're in some crazy setting where the woman gets no choice in the situation, of course. Or if you're giving money to a woman and she's giving you absolutely nothing in return, no time or love or attention or helping or anything, but in that case you don't really have a marriage, do you?

 

 

 

 

Also, the statistics show you're just flat-out wrong about no one being willing to get married if they've had sex first. 90% OF AMERICAN WOMEN had sex before marriage. Your cow-milk thing has no relevance in society. People get married anyway.

[thefooloftheyear]

This was my ex. I brought in more money than him but he still worked. He was like a sugar baby and I was fine with this since he was very good looking. He was very diserable. I'd do it again every time

 

 

I like you, but you're an idiot to think that...

 

I can't say this is true of you, but I think some women think that in that arrangement that they'll have some element of "control' over that guy...Couldn't be farther from the truth....You don't have control...He'll just find another sucker...er...woman...

 

You can do better than that..

 

 

TFY

[Cookiesandough]

I like you, but you're an idiot to think that...

 

I can't say this is true of you, but I think some women think that in that arrangement that they'll have some element of "control' over that guy...Couldn't be farther from the truth....You don't have control...He'll just find another sucker...er...woman...

 

You can do better than that..

 

 

TFY

 

I didn't think I controlled him at all!!! I didn't tell him what to do. It wasn't really my choice to bring in more $ it just happened that way. I wasn't thinking about power dynamics when I met him. It was simply attraction and overall compatibility..but turned out our personalities were not as compatible as I thought. Mostly my fault, though, I realize that. I'd get it right if I could start over with him. I'd rather be a happy idiot than a discontent smartpants. How much he makes or what he does is secondary to me, but that's just me. I've never been about the unattractive rich guy. That would be easy to get, but I'm not just looking for meal ticket or someone to dote on me. EVER. xD Attraction comes first and boy was he attractive. Agh this hurts.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[thefooloftheyear]

I didn't think I controlled him at all!!! I didn't tell him what to do. It wasn't really my choice to bring in more $ it just happened that way. I wasn't thinking about power dynamics when I met him. It was simply attraction and overall compatibility..but turned out our personalities were not as compatible as I thought. Mostly my fault, though, I realize that. I'd still do it again to be with him. I'd rather be a happy idiot than a discontent smartpants. I'd rather have a guy I'm attracted to first. How much he makes or what he does is secondary to me, but that's just me. I've never been about the unattractive rich guy. That would be easy to get, but I'm not just looking for meal ticket or someone to dote on me. EVER. xD Attraction comes first and boy was he attractive. Agh this hurts.

 

All that's sweet....Just wait til you marry that guy and the mortgage is due and your paycheck wont cover it, or you want to have kids, and he is sitting on the couch in his sweats, scratching his balls and says

 

"what are YOU gonna do?"

 

Get smart and think like an adult....Its not about rich guys...Its about real life..

 

TFY

[Southern Sun]

I still think it's a timing issue.

 

You see women in these really great careers, mid to late 30s, and unable to find a "quality" man. Well, this is about the time they are IN good careers, if they have done nothing but work since college. I'm certain many of them would really have liked to pair up but it hasn't happened, for one reason or another. Sure, some of them focused on their careers to the exclusion of pairing up. But let's assume most did not. We are simply at the point in our lives when our careers are better than ever.

 

So now...those women are dealing with trying not to be "threatening" in that sense to a man. It's kind of a catch 22. No doubt they've worked hard to get where they are. Who wants to be stuck and in a difficult financial position, especially without a second earner to help?

 

But I do think we've kicked ourselves in the foot with this change in gender roles over time. Women have wanted more independence and men are expected to exhibit more "typical" feminine qualities. Well, we've got it and look how far it's taken us. Women do tend to like certain things about independence, but we start to lose attraction for our men who take the "feminine quality" thing too far.

 

I think my friend, for example, is "competing" (if you will) with women who are not only younger than her, but who are also less threatening in the success and income department. She meets many men who make less than her. She makes VERY good money, so it's often hard to find anyone who comes close. SHE doesn't need that, but I presume the men feel some discomfort. I'm sure some are not threatened by the disparity, but she isn't interested in having a husband-bum type either.

 

Going back to the idea of timing, if these same women had gotten married at an earlier point in their career trajectory (like I did), many would have continued for a time, and then been faced with some decisions after children. I would consider myself somewhat driven, but other things are taking precedent...for now.

[Cookiesandough]

All that's sweet....Just wait til you marry that guy and the mortgage is due and your paycheck wont cover it, or you want to have kids, and he is sitting on the couch in his sweats, scratching his balls and says

 

"what are YOU gonna do?"

 

Get smart and think like an adult....Its not about rich guys...Its about real life..

 

TFY

 

Well we lived together and I paid all the bills and could have sustained ourselves!!! We weren't having kids. He asked me to marry him and I just wasn't ready for that and my parents were dripping poison in my ear. It was a lot of things. Also, to be clear, he did work, he wasn't a complete deadbeat, but he just didn't bring in as much as I did (which wasn't only money I made but also inherited)and in his free time lazed around/went kayaking which was fine with me.

 

I think it is not a gender thing. If someone makes enough for both people and wants to date someone who makes less WHO CARES as long as they are happy. Yes, it breaks a gender norm, but that SAHD shouldn't be a concern they're happy. If you can't sustain your lifestyles as a union on one income like most people these days then you must do what's practical. Both must step up. But usually people think this out while dating. Most men, even those who are wealthy are not looking to seriously date a hot chick with no job. They'll sleep with them but when they settle down they want a pretty chick with a good job and head on her shoulders even if she stops working once they have children. But even if he does want the hot chick with nothing else going for her, if he can and he's happy, more power to him!

Edited November 14, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[CptInsano]

[...]

Like previously stated....While its generally good advice to tell a young woman to be independent, have a career, etc..For the reasons mentioned, not all of those attributes mean that much to a guy...Some of you would be pretty surprised how far a complete idiot of a woman can go and how desirable a guy she can land, if she's sexy, has a great body, etc...

[/Quote]

 

That is indeed correct. I see women fall into the same trap as guys who think that a career alone makes them attractive. Success in one field doesn't necessarily mean success in another.

 

Some of the traits that women have had to adopt to enter the higher echelons of business and the corporate world can "masculinize" a woman to the point that it becomes a turnoff..

 

That on the other hand I believe to be largely a myth or just a perception. I have worked for female managers a lot, and most of them are sweet as can be in their private lives. But then again, I never wanted a woman I needed to take care of, so maybe my expectations are different.

 

Add to that the relative easy access to and de stigmatizing of casual sex among women...Guys no longer are required to jump through any hoops or make any commitments to get sex...Its everywhere and easy...

 

That is the big one IMHO. The definition of "good men" often include certain qualities that are somewhat opposite of what makes a guy successful in a casual dating environment. It breaks with the old ideas of what courtship and relationships should look like, but also takes away some of the positive aspects, such as commitment.

[Cookiesandough]

Women do tend to like certain things about independence, but we start to lose attraction for our men who take the "feminine quality" thing too far.

 

What do you mean by taking feminine quality too far?

[CptInsano]

I think it is not a gender thing. If someone makes enough for both people and wants to date someone who makes less WHO CARES as long as they are happy. Yes, it breaks a gender norm, but that SAHD shouldn't be a concern they're happy.

 

In the day and age of divorce both SAHMs and SAHDs are in a precarious situation unless a significant wealth is involved. From an economic perspective I could only recommend it in relatively few cases.

[Cookiesandough]

In the day and age of divorce both SAHMs and SAHDs are in a precarious situation unless a significant wealth is involved. From an economic perspective I could only recommend it in relatively few cases.

I know very many...but I can't tell you how much they make. They aren't all wealthy, but they make ends meet for sure.

 

 

Also...

I don't know if it was the feminist movement or what, but I seriously don't understand for a second being sexual with a man who is not hot(to me). That comes first for me. It boggles my mind this concept that most women put a man's 'success' above that, but that would be wonderful. Means more hot guys for me. Unfortunately, I haven't seen this play out pragmatically as many of the few there are married w kids or have gfs. Seems like that's from a time when women depended on men for their livelihoods

[Southern Sun]

What do you mean by taking feminine quality too far?

 

We've asked for men to be all these things we THINK we want - warm and compassionate and sensitive. Do as much at home as we do - laundry and dishes and cook and clean. But then when they do all these things, we start seeing him as less manly. We look around at OTHER men and see them being assertive and decisive and more like, "Me man, hear me roar!" And all of a sudden we want our man to pull us by the hair into the bedroom and throw us on the bed, not stand at the sink and do dishes.

 

We are very confused.

[Cookiesandough]

We've asked for men to be all these things we THINK we want - warm and compassionate and sensitive. Do as much at home as we do - laundry and dishes and cook and clean. But then when they do all these things, we start seeing him as less manly. We look around at OTHER men and see them being assertive and decisive and more like, "Me man, hear me roar!" And all of a sudden we want our man to pull us by the hair into the bedroom and throw us on the bed, not stand at the sink and do dishes.

 

We are very confused.

 

The sexiest man pulls us into bed after he's done with the dishes

[CptInsano]

I know very many...but I can't tell you how much they make. They aren't all wealthy, but they make ends meet for sure.

[/Quote]

 

But SAHMs and SAHDs become very dependent, because in case of divorce they are left with very little. My state knows spousal support only in a few circumstances and for a limited time. It is therefore very easy to end up in a low-paying dead-end job as the consequence of divorce.

[Cookiesandough]

That's true. I don't know what it's like where I live. I'm just going by what I have seen which is very likely not what most people experience.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[CptInsano]

That's true. I don't know what it's like where I live. I'm just going by what I have seen which is very likely not what most people experience.

 

I also live in the Midwest, and there is definitely a cultural spin to this, as you see more traditional families here compared to the coasts. All is well as long as the marriage lasts and the main breadwinner stays employed.

 

There is in many cases a big problem if the marriage doesn't last or if the one spouse is suddenly forced to work because the other cannot.

[TheWoman]

I have been dating for about 3 years now post divorce and my experiences do not really tally up with a lot of what is being discussed here.

 

Online dating has opened up the world for me, there are so many people on it out there its incredible. Yes its a mixed bag but still no shortage of interesting people to meet, and all at your fingertips!

 

Perhaps its because Im in my 40s, so Im not looking for a baby daddy, and have no interest in marriage again. I can imagine with the clock ticking it would pile a whole lot of pressure on, which would be most unhelpful.

 

So far I have dated a scientist, a music producer, a teacher, a builder, a designer, a heart surgeon and a banker. All very interesting men, each attractive in his own way. The reasons I stopped dating each of them were varied too: too selfish, too stubborn, too clingy, dishonest and bad sex were the main ones. I dont feel jaded by it, in fact its quite a lot of fun after years of an awful marriage.

 

Although full disclose.... I am quite motivated by the need to have sex, rather than the desire for a 'relationship'. I mean if I click with someone enough that would be awesome, but in all honesty, its not what gets me out there....

 

Humanist saying: dont buy or sell people, we do not own each other.

[BarbedFenceRider]

I've mentioned it before but in my case, I was in the fire department for 11 years. Single with ALOT of time off! lol. The women were fun and plentiful, but not very serious. You were eye candy and macho. Who doesn't love big fire engines and ambulances with guys dripping in testosterone. But the finances were another thing. Small apartment, a truck payment and limited toys. Most of the older guys at the station that WERE married, were divorced or going through one. 24 hours away from the SO are a recipe for disaster imo...

When I started getting older, I was setting myself up to have a household and start a family. The women, they ran away... Most ended going back into past relationships that provided them a bigger financial backdrop. I was "cute" but not serious marriage material. Talk about a bruise to the ego. lol

Now forward 15 years in the future, and my wife is the breadwinner. We both work. Unfortunately, my pay is significantly lower due to recession draw down. But I stayed employed and making money with no unemployment to date. I know how to find work. And that is important. But the wife has her work social circle with like minded people that make good money if not better than her. She now sees me as the "lesser" in this marriage and confides in others. This is what "we" are going through as of now and it will be a long haul. Sad part is, I can see it failing and I will be back to square one.

There are plenty of good men. But media and culture have perpetuated a false stereotype and expectation that throws away whole generations. IMO.

It used to be relationships were built on two people coming together as one to navigate this world. It has now become one hoping the other can "catapult" the themselves into a higher status or comfort level. Still one person, not two.

[Cookiesandough]

I've mentioned it before but in my case, I was in the fire department for 11 years. Single with ALOT of time off! lol. The women were fun and plentiful, but not very serious. You were eye candy and macho. Who doesn't love big fire engines and ambulances with guys dripping in testosterone. But the finances were another thing. Small apartment, a truck payment and limited toys. Most of the older guys at the station that WERE married, were divorced or going through one. 24 hours away from the SO are a recipe for disaster imo...

When I started getting older, I was setting myself up to have a household and start a family. The women, they ran away... Most ended going back into past relationships that provided them a bigger financial backdrop. I was "cute" but not serious marriage material. Talk about a bruise to the ego. lol

Now forward 15 years in the future, and my wife is the breadwinner. We both work. Unfortunately, my pay is significantly lower due to recession draw down. But I stayed employed and making money with no unemployment to date. I know how to find work. And that is important. But the wife has her work social circle with like minded people that make good money if not better than her. She now sees me as the "lesser" in this marriage and confides in others. This is what "we" are going through as of now and it will be a long haul. Sad part is, I can see it failing and I will be back to square one.

There are plenty of good men. But media and culture have perpetuated a false stereotype and expectation that throws away whole generations. IMO.

It used to be relationships were built on two people coming together as one to navigate this world. It has now become one hoping the other can "catapult" the themselves into a higher status or comfort level. Still one person, not two.

 

If she really said she sees you as a lesser or put you down to others that's awful.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[CptInsano]

Now forward 15 years in the future, and my wife is the breadwinner. We both work. Unfortunately, my pay is significantly lower due to recession draw down. But I stayed employed and making money with no unemployment to date. I know how to find work. And that is important. But the wife has her work social circle with like minded people that make good money if not better than her. She now sees me as the "lesser" in this marriage and confides in others. This is what "we" are going through as of now and it will be a long haul. Sad part is, I can see it failing and I will be back to square one.

 

A friend of mine just went through a similar situation. His wife left him for somebody wealthier, but ultimately there was an upside to it, meaning that there are still plenty of women who just want a guy who has his affairs in order, and it seems like you do. While I don't quite agree on my friend's choice of a 2nd wife, he seems much happier these days.

 

Just be aware that you do have choices.

[road]

But here's the bottom line, and likely a good reason it's mostly women complaining of lack of "good" men...

 

They changed the entire dynamic over the last 30/40 years or so...The problem is men don't really want to play along...PLUS, many of the things they thought were getting them ahead and were progressive thinking...wound up sabotaging their own efforts, in dating/mating world..

 

Like previously stated....While its generally good advice to tell a young woman to be independent, have a career, etc..For the reasons mentioned, not all of those attributes mean that much to a guy...Some of you would be pretty surprised how far a complete idiot of a woman can go and how desirable a guy she can land, if she's sexy, has a great body, etc...

 

Some of the traits that women have had to adopt to enter the higher echelons of business and the corporate world can "masculinize" a woman to the point that it becomes a turnoff..

 

Add to that the relative easy access to and de stigmatizing of casual sex among women...Guys no longer are required to jump through any hoops or make any commitments to get sex...Its everywhere and easy...

 

So, really...It's all good... Enjoy the new found financial and sexual independence, just don't complain too much if you can't find a guy that wants to play along ....

 

TFY

 

I have been saying this for quite a while.

 

Men and women have been playing the mating game for years.

 

Men bought the cow because the rules worked out for

all involved.

 

Women decide to change the rules and expect the men to

follow. The men to the women's bewilderment are not

giving the women the results playing the mating game

that they envision on having.

 

The new rules give everything to the women and leave

the men nothing.

 

Who wants to sign up for nothing?

 

When the give and take stops and becomes me, me, me ,me.

 

Or in another word selfish.

[Southern Sun]

Now forward 15 years in the future, and my wife is the breadwinner. We both work. Unfortunately, my pay is significantly lower due to recession draw down. But I stayed employed and making money with no unemployment to date. I know how to find work. And that is important. But the wife has her work social circle with like minded people that make good money if not better than her. She now sees me as the "lesser" in this marriage and confides in others. This is what "we" are going through as of now and it will be a long haul. Sad part is, I can see it failing and I will be back to square one.

There are plenty of good men. But media and culture have perpetuated a false stereotype and expectation that throws away whole generations. IMO.

It used to be relationships were built on two people coming together as one to navigate this world. It has now become one hoping the other can "catapult" the themselves into a higher status or comfort level. Still one person, not two.

 

I think the most important thing for a man in the "career" department is having hustle. Whether you have a degree or are the bread-winner, ultimately that is less important to me than getting up every day, having a plan, and bringing home some bacon. You can have three degrees and still be a "basement-dweller" (thanks, TFY, for that!).

 

I made more money than my H for many years and didn't think twice about it. He started making the same as me, and now he's bringing in ALL the bacon, at least for now.

[OneLov]

What is a "good" man? A Ward Cleaver carbon copy?

 

No one has mentioned that the world is a much a different place today than in the 1950s or even the 1970s. If you want to a have a better lifestyle than your parents (The "American Dream," right?) or even something comparable, two incomes are required. Men and women are saddled with debt like never before. So how can you build a nest when you have no straws left at the end of the day because all the ones you gathered went to paying creditors?

 

I wish I could work some unskilled summer job like my dad and pay the $1250.00/per year it cost to attend Penn State in 1975. I went to the same school and was borrowering about $12,500.00/per year for the same education (and now paying it back with interest). No summer job was going to make a dent. The difference is though, I did not get a job out of school making 10x the amount he did. Adjusting for inflation, we were making about the same.

 

Have any of you that are yearning for the "old days" graduated at 22 with a mountain of debt? Or have trouble getting a mortgage because you could not afford the 20% down payment that is required post-recession for a home that costs much more than it did in the 1970s? So how is anyone in my generation going to get ahead if we have to support a spouse and have a bunch of mouths to feed? F*** that noise.

 

Millennials aren't "delaying adulthood" (which ostensibly is settling down and understanding that father knows best) because they are spending money on avocado toast and are self-entitled and irresponsible. They are rejecting the American Dream and its white picket fence because they are saddled with debt like no generation before has experienced, and the "dream" is more like a fairy-tale.

 

So as much as some like to over-simplify and blame a gender for the lack of stability that contributes to folks delaying settling down, I think I am going to over-simplify and blame those of you from my parent's generation for kicking the can (isn't that the game you used to play?) and burdening us with this debt. Thank you, Ronald Reagan and the 1980's. It may have stopped the bleeding for those that experienced the hyper-inflation of the 1970s and offered a temporary solution and prosperity, but we all have to pay the piper eventually.

 

***please pick up on the satire. But understand there is more to it than bra-burning feminists dragging us men down.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/14/babies-an-impossible-dream-the-millennials-priced-out-of-parenthood

 

"The average age of British mothers hit 30 for the first time in 2013. This is often framed as a result of women “choosing” to focus on careers before they decide to have children. Very little has been said about those women – or, indeed, couples – who want to have children, but whose circumstances prevent them from doing so....The recession, unstable and unreliable unemployment, low pay compounded by a pensions shortfall and an ageing population, have all led to a situation in which many members of my generation feel not only short-changed, but helpless when it comes to building some semblance of a stable family life. While our generational predecessors, the baby boomers, reaped the rewards of free university education and affordable property prices, we have been disproportionately affected by austerity."

 

Over-simplifying is pretty cool. It is liberating and comforting to take a complex problem and be like, "Screw all those shades of gray; it's all their fault!"

Edited November 14, 2017 by OneLov

[Mysterio]

This is how I am as a man towards women, when I am dating. I am light and easy. Romantic, affectionate, playful. Not heavy handed.

 

I am a Black 46 yr old Canadian Male. 5'9 213 lbs and striving to gt to 180-190 lbs. I am fit. Shaved head, clean cut striaght teeth. I think I am boyishly Handsome.

 

love my Rock and Roll/Soul/Heavy Metal/Jazz music. I love going out. I meet people all the time. I have a great relationship with my family/friends. If I have problems I takcle them.

 

I think a woman getting me is a real treat. So I think I am one of the good guys. I just don't know why I have a hard time dating and meting great women. Maybe this is the way it is and a lot of us have to accept this.

 

My Buddy S is with a new woman, after him and his wife of 19 yrs married 29 yrs together split in Jan 2017. I don't know what he's got that I don't. He is a horndog and loves sex. He cheated on his wife with other women. He just knows how to work women. I am clueless. I really don't know what I am really doing wrong if at all.