Praying for reconciliation

October 27, 2016

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3][/sIZE][/FONT]Quote of RO

I know that many or even most on this forum are not believers and I respect that but for me its a personal thing and plays the biggest role in my life.

Reply by Blunt

The personal believe that my wife and I have in Christian scriptures is the biggest reason that we have over 25 years of R and have a very close relationship with our children

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October 27, 2016

On the CL thing-my best guess is she was curious about the rush you felt-I know for me, that is something that really stuck in my mind-what is that rush all about and can a marriage really compete with that- I looked on CL a few times, but could never bring myself to contact anyone- doesn't mean I am better than anyone else, just means I can not-

So still not sure what/who CL is, but enjoyed Google's search results:

Clozure CL, a free Common Lisp implementation
CL, the singer
CL or Caseous lymphadenitis, a chronic, contagious disease in sheep and goats
Craigslist
Chump Lady

And the winner is.... (?)

October 27, 2016

So still not sure what/who CL is, but enjoyed Google's search results:
Clozure CL, a free Common Lisp implementation
CL, the singer
CL or Caseous lymphadenitis, a chronic, contagious disease in sheep and goats
Craigslist
Chump Lady
And the winner is.... (?)

Gotta LOVE Chump Lady! ROFL. I think she's the winner every time.

How you doing RO?

Gosh there are some wise and faithful people on LS.

Faithful as in God I was referring to RO. Take a sigh lol.

LH

October 27, 2016

Im not sure I'm struggling but it is true I am interested in and wanting to seek out methods and ways to prevent any relapse. NOT because I think there will be one at all but because I aim to do everything in my ability to prevent anything close to this from ever happening again. I plan on leaving no stone unturned. I touched on this subject with my wife but part of me was/is concerned that if I tell her I worry about relapse she takes that to mean that Im struggling and could at any moment "take that first drink"... In reality I have no temptations to do so at the moment at all. The fact I am not wearing my wedding ring right now (our MC suggested I take it off a month ago and give to my wife until she wants to be married again) annoys me. I want the world to know Im in a committed relationship and that I have no desire for anyone other than my wife. This is not to say that women are hitting on me but I just want that persona. Most of my counseling right now is couples therapy. In some ways it feels like my own personal IC has been put on hold while we deal with this infidelity. I continue to do self IC with reading. The weekend class we are going to in November has an entire section dedicated to avoiding relapse and Im looking forward to that part. Likewise the 12 step celebrate recovery mens group also has a lot to do with never becoming that person that made those bad decisions again.

I called it a 'struggle' because you're having to work at it. You're trying to develop an understanding, a recognition of when interactions become inappropriate and knowing how to avoid going there. It's a struggle if you don't come by this awareness naturally or you didn't learn it already. It's learned from conversation, thought and practice - which you're now doing. When it happens when you're young, you're ahead of the game when you get married and make a commitment to monitor and check your interactions with the opposite sex out of respect for your commitment to your spouse. To do it after you've made mistakes and you're older, well, that's going to take more work - like going back to school at middle age. That's what I mean by "struggle." Seems like you enjoy the 'work,' and that's good. But my point was it is absolutely essential to becoming a responsible adult partner in a relationship. I'll bet you could talk to your wife about it and she'll be able to tell you she's had to make such choices.

The only real deterrent to infidelity is developing this awareness of how you're interacting with the opposite sex, what your intentions are, and what flirting consists of. You're talking to people like the man in your group and learning from their experiences what others do to keep from getting drawn in. And one thing seems to stand out - that others HAVE this awareness and that's why they seem to know when to put on the brakes, which would be from the very first eye contact. You seem to stop monitoring yourself after the first drink. That would be one place to start (er, stop).

My husband always answered the "Why?" (i.e., why did you do it?) with one word: "flattery." I think that's everyone's motive to some extent when someone starts flirting with you, laughing at what you say, looking admiringly at you, etc. The first brush of the arm, the hand that lingers too long - if you really want to trace the steps, it's not that hard to cut off someone extending these kinds of vibes, but you do have to observe and practice.

October 27, 2016

Dear RO (AND WIFE! lol)

I chuckled and laughed at your post responding to mine #149 I think.

ESPECIALLY the two nights in a row! Lol. That's awesome! Lol. I still can't help but be in the cheer squad for your full reconciliation. No matter how hard I try not to lol just joking.

Then the hitting you over the head with a what??? Metal pipe? Oh goodness RO you have no idea how perfectly funny that was today. I'm attending a support group on Domestic violence for 10 weeks. Today was the 3rd session. I really needed the humour in the mire! Lol.

I'll tell you now, the RED FLAGS I see are everywhere, I jump at ghosts but my closest friends say for good reason too.

I surely don't want to dampen your spirits.

Please keep forging ahead no matter what pitfalls you can see.

I'm hoping through communicating with you that you may gain "some" insight. But in knowing I am a different person to your BW it may not be in line with anything lol.

In some ways I hope indeed NOT lol.

I learnt ALOT today. Soooooo much. I had ALOT to share with my bf. We are learning SO MUCH TOGETHER! Always have. Since we first met on LS in fact. Seekers of knowledge. The ever seekers of RATIONALIZING our emotions lol.

We are two extremely rational people you see.

The demises of each of our Ms uncontrollably perplexed us both. Though we LOVE a good joke.

The jokes are not on you.

I respect you so much. Which is saying alot lol. Just as I respect J for his own work. I'm sure that so many people here are watching with baited breath to see how your story unfolds.

I'm sure we're all very proud of you. Mummy hug to you and your wife lol.

Now to the serious learning I shared with STBexVWH (way too many letters he SHOULDN'T be proud of after his name lol).

Cheating is sexual abuse.

Phew....got it out.

I had to share it with you because WHEN a person UNDERSTANDS this and completely ACKNOWLEDGES this as truth. Well you can see WHY THE PAIN is so deep. Amongst the other factors of betrayal.

Facing the person you loved for years and now only REALIZING he's a liar. (BTW LIAR was a word banned in my Missionary style upbringing. I can say the F word more easily. Believe me!).

Some people prefer DECEIVE or dare I say OMIT lol.

But LIAR is what you are not. Not now.

It's the CLEANSING part of washing off those horrible BURDENS of cheating and lying and knowing you're betraying your wife and children. Entire families in my way of thinking.

God too.

IT IS SOOOOOOOO FREEING TO LIVE IN THE TRUTH!!!

So many Biblical references flash across my mind.

But with a HUGE smile that you're really making this happen RO, remember the guy who murdered someone lol names I often forget but NOT THE MORALS to the stories.

This guy looked left.

He looked right.

But......he forgot to look UP!

HE FORGOT that God was HIS witness to all he did.

All good people can forgive. Not all need to reconcile.

In my own version of my faith, I feel like it's arrogant of me to even think that's it's my place to forgive. It's not. It's God's IMO. But I can join a cheer squad lol.

My witness is myself.

Holy cheeses I am not perfect! I can't tell you what my parents said.

I tell the clients I work with, ALL of them....YOU are PERFECTLY you. As you should be.

I think it's wonderful you've spoken with your sons about this. Taking full responsibility? I hope!

Guiding them to UNDERSTAND that infidelity is the only reason the Bible gives for D.

So if D happens.

Then it's blessed.

It will not be blamed upon BW. Their mother.

It's the natural consequence for affairs.

Because a very main concern of mine. Here. Was IF WE RECONCILED then what was THAT teaching my sons especially. To cheat on their wives? Yes.

Because ALL will be forgiven blah blah blah.

BAU.

Just as their father, their grandfather, their uncles - numbering many had cheated and BAU....all on VWH side.

No.

Reconciliation IS A GIFT your BW gives to you.

She already gave you the gift of her life in M.

And her fidelity if she'd been faithful.

Let's count your children too why not!

I really am giving you all I've got. I'm not holding back lol.

I have a higher regard for you because you've done this all yourself.

Made the decision to come clean. No matter the cost.

And I saw the cost of that weekend!!! Yep. Putting your money where your aim is.

That's very commendable.

You are standing as you mean to go on.

You may love to watch clips by Stephen Covey on many things. Infidelity. Personality disorders (only most especially because it's incredibly empowering for guides in parenting and self reflection). And his AWESOME book on the 7 habits of effective families. Masterpiece.

You guys are indeed NOW problem solving as a couple so thoroughly, I'm so excited for you both. All.

As you leave the home oh another thing...down further..as you leave them home feel Gratitude that you've had a lovely time with your wife. You guys are seriously dating lol. Gratitude for the gift if reconciliation.

And DO DO all those really sexy things with your wife!!!

I emplored WH to too. We used to! Before children. Then he got this weird Madonna / Whore complex about me / OW. Yes I am the mother of his children but I was busting to have some downright dirty fun with him lol.

He thought that was disgusting.

He was SO BORING in the bedroom. Ugh. I'd rather have slept tbh lol.

I actually thought WH doing it all with a 70yo when he was 40yo and MARRIED was actually disgusting lol.

No matter. He can fun with as many 70yo as he likes now lol.

My bf is certainly making up for everything I missed out on now. Surpassing it guaranteed.

No need for details but DO DO STUFF!!!!!!!!!! with your wife btw :-) lol.

Yay for the weekend course. Feedback please!

Lion Heart

October 27, 2016

. why did you do it?) with one word: "flattery." I think that's everyone's motive to some extent when someone starts flirting with you, laughing at what you say, looking admiringly at you, etc. The first brush of the arm, the hand that lingers too long - if you really want to trace the steps, it's not that hard to cut off someone extending these kinds of vibes, but you do have to observe and practice.

^^^ this. It's a very very fine line as to where a normal , general talk turns into flirting. The leaning in, the body language , the eye ' talk ' , the mischievous laugh with sparkles in eyes -- all very intoxicating and addictive. All it does is give a moment of fake ego boost but destroys primary relationship.

Every second spent with the opposite sex ' friend' , you take away a big chunk away from your spouse. Every second of closeness with them means a huge gap between you and your spouse. And how on earth are you going to close that gap if you continue the little catch up , is beyond me. You yourself are responsible if your spouse is emotionally distant. They can feel it.

If someone is so used to outer validation , it's not going to go away in few days. OP, I guess your wife knows this. She sees you when you are with her but she still doesn't know what you are doing behind her back. The females who got a kick from you will come back for their share. It's still the beginning , they will keep coming back and you too might fall back.

It's addictive for them as well. But the cost is your relationship. Your wife shouldn't have to pay the cost of your and other women's inabilities to stay away from their catch up game.

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm afraid you might relapse.

October 27, 2016

You don't need a ring to project a persona. Keep a closed off body language. That should be enough. The more open your body , more available you are. Watch other committed men. The face and body are closed.

October 27, 2016

I called it a 'struggle' because you're having to work at it. You're trying to develop an understanding, a recognition of when interactions become inappropriate and knowing how to avoid going there. It's a struggle if you don't come by this awareness naturally or you didn't learn it already. It's learned from conversation, thought and practice - which you're now doing. When it happens when you're young, you're ahead of the game when you get married and make a commitment to monitor and check your interactions with the opposite sex out of respect for your commitment to your spouse. To do it after you've made mistakes and you're older, well, that's going to take more work - like going back to school at middle age. That's what I mean by "struggle." Seems like you enjoy the 'work,' and that's good. But my point was it is absolutely essential to becoming a responsible adult partner in a relationship. I'll bet you could talk to your wife about it and she'll be able to tell you she's had to make such choices.

The only real deterrent to infidelity is developing this awareness of how you're interacting with the opposite sex, what your intentions are, and what flirting consists of. You're talking to people like the man in your group and learning from their experiences what others do to keep from getting drawn in. And one thing seems to stand out - that others HAVE this awareness and that's why they seem to know when to put on the brakes, which would be from the very first eye contact. You seem to stop monitoring yourself after the first drink. That would be one place to start (er, stop).

My husband always answered the "Why?" (i.e., why did you do it?) with one word: "flattery." I think that's everyone's motive to some extent when someone starts flirting with you, laughing at what you say, looking admiringly at you, etc. The first brush of the arm, the hand that lingers too long - if you really want to trace the steps, it's not that hard to cut off someone extending these kinds of vibes, but you do have to observe and practice.

I agree with Mermaid here. I think I agree with everything she says anywhere lol. :-)) including the Awesome Wiggles lol.

RO it was only WHEN you drew attention to the 12 step program that I understood the "struggle" (for want of a better description) as comparative to addiction. Or AS an addiction? Please endeavour to extrapolate if you can.

Indeed it must be difficult.

It's great it's not atm.

You are wise to think ahead for future temptations.

Or potential traps you may fall in to.

I can understand more fully now that it's far harder for some people to remain faithful than others.

If you understand the CONDITIONS in which YOU took steps, even small ones, towards infidelity then there's a foundational key right there.

I think you may have written boredom in M? I'm not sure.

I know you wrote you were feeling bad about yourself at one point (employment or lack of??) Hopefully these latter points are stable and getting better for now. Though it ALWAYS pays dividends to imagine the worst feelings you had about yourself and being unemployed again - THEN WHAT behaviours would you REPLACE the Internet stuff with??? Service is always a good one for me. You choose your own set of ACTIONS.

The BOREDOM.

Well imo if you're bored then so is your wife lol.

Women do seem to busy themselves (especially ones very used to being left alone whilst their WH are busy elsewhere) with children, households, other stuff.

What are your "MANLY" things you could pursue?

Sure a H doing the housework is downright SEXY for a W lol. Especially.....well I'll leave that to your imagination lol.

From my POV men who seek As want adoration from a wider field than only W. Indeed many Ws stop "adoring" their Hs. Stop hanging off every word etc.

I've been observing happy Ms for a long time.

Longstanding happier Ms MAKE TIME for reconnecting in so many ways. OFTEN. It's difficult to SCHEDULE the time out from kids and activities etc. But happy couples do this weekly at least. Some happiest couples do this daily.

I knew a couple still very much in love after 30+ years of M. They had certain things they did that everybody in the family just accepted. 1 thing was going to bed every night at the same time. Even leaving the teenage children still up watching TV. With a curfew lol.

I thought that would drive me crazy but in a lovely relationship it gives time for talking and or intimacy.

It's really just common sense isn't it?

People are raving about a Series here on the ABC called "Man Up". Just if you can access it. It could help. I think it's truly dispelling all the myths men feel that women have a consensus attitude towards the modern man. It's helping heal alot of men.

Anyway BOUNDARIES in one word is what Mermaid waa referring to and OP would have to be cognizant of re- affairs. Who breaks your boundaries? Some OW may attempt to.

Your power and strength comes from all the foundational work you're now doing and will continue to do.

You're not going to throw all that hard fought for work away for the 1 drink that has you fall off the wagon.

You have to decide what that first drink LOOKS like for you. Then abstain lol. Better still then REPLACE it with something from your happy foundational list.

That being said I'll abstain from LS lol and get to sleep!

Although for me, LS I hope is a healthy "addiction".

Lion Heart

October 27, 2016

ETA : some women don't even care about the ring just like some men don't. It's your attitude that speaks louder. You were committed when having these women , weren't you ? Did it stop you or them ? How is it going to stop now ? Many women take it upon themselves to make a committed guy cross boundaries, even if you tell them point blank,show your ring or tell them you are committed. It's a challenge for them. It's all on you. These women know your weakness of needing validation , admiration. They use it to their advantage.

October 27, 2016

ETA : some women don't even care about the ring just like some men don't. It's your attitude that speaks louder. You were committed when having these women , weren't you ? Did it stop you or them ? How is it going to stop now ? Many women take it upon themselves to make a committed guy cross boundaries, even if you tell them point blank,show your ring or tell them you are committed. It's a challenge for them. It's all on you. These women know your weakness of needing validation , admiration. They use it to their advantage.

And furthermore:

some men don't even care about the ring just like some women don't. It's your attitude that speaks louder. You were committed when having these men , weren't you ? Did it stop you or them ? How is it going to stop now ?Many men take it upon themselves to make a committed gal cross boundaries, even if you tell them point blank, show your ring or tell them you are committed. It's a challenge for them. It's all on you. These men know your weakness of needing validation , admiration. They use it to their advantage.

- as if it's a problem defined by gender. It's not.

October 27, 2016

You don't need a ring to project a persona. Keep a closed off body language. That should be enough. The more open your body , more available you are. Watch other committed men. The face and body are closed.

But certainly this ^^^^ !!! Also the eyes: side glances and looking to see if s/he's looking. During one of those furtive glances, if the eyes connect, it's a first step.

Hell. that's how I met my husband, and how I should've known he'd meet someone else some day.

October 27, 2016

I'm sure that if a wife had a male friend to whom she was just talking , just catching up , all the time he was making her laugh , touching her just enough , just a little bit , sharing just a little random joke, just the funny weather, a husband will never be fine. So why should a wife be when tables are turned ? Especially after having affair's' , all opposite sex has to be out of bounds. No more cover ups of friends title.

Thats what I guess is false reconciliation. New women , new ' friends' , new titles but same cheating.

October 27, 2016

I called it a 'struggle' because you're having to work at it. You're trying to develop an understanding, a recognition of when interactions become inappropriate and knowing how to avoid going there. It's a struggle if you don't come by this awareness naturally or you didn't learn it already. It's learned from conversation, thought and practice - which you're now doing. When it happens when you're young, you're ahead of the game when you get married and make a commitment to monitor and check your interactions with the opposite sex out of respect for your commitment to your spouse. To do it after you've made mistakes and you're older, well, that's going to take more work - like going back to school at middle age. That's what I mean by "struggle." Seems like you enjoy the 'work,' and that's good. But my point was it is absolutely essential to becoming a responsible adult partner in a relationship. I'll bet you could talk to your wife about it and she'll be able to tell you she's had to make such choices.

Ok I understand what you mean by "struggle" now. Thanks for clarifying and for your comment. I don't think Im completely clueless here or have a complete lack of awareness (not that you said I did) of what constitutes inappropriate interactions. I didn't practice it however - I would allow myself to have thoughts. I would allow for compliments or smiles and winks at the grocery store provide me with an Ego boost and to let it make me feel good. I recognized it for what it was then and now. I just choose now to look towards my wife and keep my thoughts on her.

The only real deterrent to infidelity is developing this awareness of how you're interacting with the opposite sex, what your intentions are, and what flirting consists of. You're talking to people like the man in your group and learning from their experiences what others do to keep from getting drawn in. And one thing seems to stand out - that others HAVE this awareness and that's why they seem to know when to put on the brakes, which would be from the very first eye contact. You seem to stop monitoring yourself after the first drink. That would be one place to start (er, stop).

I think that makes sense.. developing an awareness. I have been way more aware since my confession for sure. I think if you do anything long enough it becomes a habit and Ive been and will continue to develop a habit of being more intentional when I am interacting with women. My objective is to get a cup of coffee, answer a question from a client, order my meal at a restaurant etc.. I can be polite and exchange smiles and not allow other thoughts enter in. I think its also somewhat foolish to say that no one ever has attraction to someone of the opposite sex even if they are in a committed marriage and in love. We are human beings. We were designed (I say by a creator and others might say we evolved this way) to notice the opposite sex (assuming you are heterosexual I suppose). One of the counselors who helps with infidelity says that attraction is inevitable. For men and women both. Now, some here (I won't say who) might suggest they NEVER ever have an attraction towards someone else. For me I prefer to live in the real world and understand attraction will happen. I will simply choose to not go there mentally with it. If it becomes a thought then mentioning it to my wife is what was suggested by the founder of affair recovery dot com. An expert in the field who does the same thing.

October 27, 2016

Dear RO (AND WIFE! lol)

I chuckled and laughed at your post responding to mine #149 I think.

ESPECIALLY the two nights in a row! Lol. That's awesome! Lol. I still can't help but be in the cheer squad for your full reconciliation. No matter how hard I try not to lol just joking.

Yes my wife may very well be reading and perhaps posting (gasp!) here soon. She asked me for a full list of all the forums I belong to along with my pass words and usernames. I told her I use this forum in some ways as a journal and as such it might not be good for her to read it but it was up to her. I imagine she wants to make sure Im not on here just for chatting purposes.

Ill welcome a cheer squad - Thank you! See now you can tell others that you are open minded. You have at least cheered for one WS in your time on LS. Ive done you a favor LH - Ive given you even more credibility now. lol

I'll tell you now, the RED FLAGS I see are everywhere, I jump at ghosts but my closest friends say for good reason too.

Yes I imagine so... you are skeptical as would any BS be. Only makes sense.

The jokes are not on you.
I respect you so much. Which is saying alot lol. Just as I respect J for his own work. I'm sure that so many people here are watching with baited breath to see how your story unfolds.

I'm sure we're all very proud of you. Mummy hug to you and your wife lol.

Thanks for the kind words! I wouldn't have thought that there would be anyone all that interested in my story but for the few who are Ill remain a poster here at least for the foreseeable future and maybe beyond. I know I was sure looking for support (thoughts, suggestions etc.. etc.) when I started this unfortunate journey. Helping someone else deal with things would be a good experience and what everyone is called to do. One thing I like so much about the affairrecovery.com program is that its made up of past (and healed) BS and WS.

Now to the serious learning I shared with STBexVWH (way too many letters he SHOULDN'T be proud of after his name lol).
Cheating is sexual abuse.

Phew....got it out.
I had to share it with you because WHEN a person UNDERSTANDS this and completely ACKNOWLEDGES this as truth. Well you can see WHY THE PAIN is so deep. Amongst the other factors of betrayal.
Facing the person you loved for years and now only REALIZING he's a liar. (BTW LIAR was a word banned in my Missionary style upbringing. I can say the F word more easily. Believe me!).
Some people prefer DECEIVE or dare I say OMIT lol.

I don't disagree but to me and the way I understand things, I think of it as form of emotional abuse.

But LIAR is what you are not. Not now.

That is for sure. And I love that.

It's the CLEANSING part of washing off those horrible BURDENS of cheating and lying and knowing you're betraying your wife and children. Entire families in my way of thinking.
God too.

IT IS SOOOOOOOO FREEING TO LIVE IN THE TRUTH!!!

YES... that cleansing (great way to put it). And there are most definitely burdens when carrying those lies around. Now that burden is gone but another remains in the pain I've caused.

I think it's wonderful you've spoken with your sons about this. Taking full responsibility? I hope!
Guiding them to UNDERSTAND that infidelity is the only reason the Bible gives for D.

Well yes Ive taken full responsibility. I didn't go into great detail with them but they understand this was something I did.. it wasn't something that their mom had anything to do with and didn't deserve. I have not told them that she has biblical grounds for divorcing me. Neither of us has talked to them about there being chances of divorce. I don't think that wise to put them through the trauma of tossing that around in their minds unless it looks like it will happen. They know we are dealing with some serious issues of which I have caused. Thats enough for them for now.

Because a very main concern of mine. Here. Was IF WE RECONCILED then what was THAT teaching my sons especially. To cheat on their wives? Yes.
Because ALL will be forgiven blah blah blah.
BAU.
Just as their father, their grandfather, their uncles - numbering many had cheated and BAU....all on VWH side.
No.

Well I don't think that is the lesson my sons would take away from this at all (assuming we do reconcile). They see from a distance of what we are both going through. I point out to them that I really made a mess of my life and that of my marriage and that I have to make some major changes to be the person their mom deserves.

Reconciliation IS A GIFT your BW gives to you.
She already gave you the gift of her life in M.
And her fidelity if she'd been faithful.
Let's count your children too why not!

I can't argue with that but to elaborate I think of it as more than a gift. I don't want my wife to choose reconcile with me because she thinks of it as a gift. I want her to see a changed person and want to be with me. She told me that she wants to get to a place where she desires me like crazy and can't wait to be around me as much as possible. Like we were many many years ago. Thats the bar she has set for herself to reconcile. I want my wife to want me, not just tolerate me and the giant bag of crap I've added to my pile of baggage. But I do understand your point... She did give me the gift of M and was faithful to me - she did her part. Anything beyond that at this point is a gift.

I really am giving you all I've got. I'm not holding back lol.
I have a higher regard for you because you've done this all yourself.

Ha.. thats fine. Bring it on. Trust me no one here can question me or bash me (not that you are) any more than I did to myself early on. I feel like I have a good understanding at this point - at least as good as I can 9 weeks post D-Day.

Made the decision to come clean. No matter the cost.
And I saw the cost of that weekend!!! Yep. Putting your money where your aim is.
That's very commendable.

Yeah with air fare that is not an inexpensive trip. Add in the cost of my apartment along with other things and looking at this from a monatery stand point my terrible choice was quite costly. I don't care about money anymore though.

As you leave the home oh another thing...down further..as you leave them home feel Gratitude that you've had a lovely time with your wife. You guys are seriously dating lol. Gratitude for the gift if reconciliation.

Yes Im trying to do a lot of that. Focus on the good.. how great the time was... not being down that I didn't get to stay longer.

And DO DO all those really sexy things with your wife!!!
I emplored WH to too. We used to! Before children. Then he got this weird Madonna / Whore complex about me / OW. Yes I am the mother of his children but I was busting to have some downright dirty fun with him lol.

Yes for sure - have and will. Thats another gift for sure. My wife still welcomes me in that way and as you said wants to push previous envelopes we had. We both want to create new things that are special just for us. Ill respect her and us by not elaborating further. lol

October 27, 2016

If someone is so used to outer validation , it's not going to go away in few days. OP, I guess your wife knows this. She sees you when you are with her but she still doesn't know what you are doing behind her back. The females who got a kick from you will come back for their share. It's still the beginning , they will keep coming back and you too might fall back.

Perhaps it won't go away in a few days. I can say I haven't seen it in 10 weeks. For argument sake lets say some sort of desire returns. Im laying the foundation now by the things Im doing to be equipped to deal with that.

If you read my earlier posts you would have seen that someone did come back trying to contact me in a way never used before (because Ive eliminated all the old ways of communication). An email was sent to my work email. I immediately texted my wife and notified her. I asked my wife if she felt I should respond. My wife told me to respond and copy her which I did. Here is the email I sent:

"I am trying to save my marriage. I love my wife and have betrayed her in the worst way possible. I am sorry but I can never again talk to you in any way. I will ignore any future attempt. She is very hurt by what I have done and I ask that you please please please respect me, her and our marriage which I am hoping will survive this. I am sorry but Im asking you sincerely to never contact her or myself. Please. I am copying my wife with this email."

My wife thanked me. That was that. I honestly don't think anyone will try to contact me further but if they do Ill take the same approach.

It's addictive for them as well. But the cost is your relationship. Your wife shouldn't have to pay the cost of your and other women's inabilities to stay away from their catch up game.

My wife shouldn't have to that is right. But Ill leave it up to her to make that decision of what she is or isn't willing to do.

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm afraid you might relapse.

Its ok you can be rude if you want. You don't know me. And I think you are very wrong.

October 27, 2016

You don't need a ring to project a persona. Keep a closed off body language. That should be enough. The more open your body , more available you are. Watch other committed men. The face and body are closed.

I didn't say I needed a ring to stay faithful. I know married couples who don't even wear rings. My point was I miss wearing the symbol. Simple as that.

I do watch other committed men.. One in particular I look up to a lot is my father-in-law. A very good man who has tons of integrity and is an amazing father/grand father and husband. A good man, well respected by all accounts. He happens to also be a man who committed adultery 30 years ago. Twice. Once with a prostitute.

Imagine that, a man who can be all those great things yet committed adultery... I know it must be mind boggling for some to imagine.

October 27, 2016

I didn't say I needed a ring to stay faithful. I know married couples who don't even wear rings. My point was I miss wearing the symbol. Simple as that.

I do watch other committed men.. One in particular I look up to a lot is my father-in-law. A very good man who has tons of integrity and is an amazing father/grand father and husband. A good man, well respected by all accounts. He happens to also be a man who committed adultery 30 years ago. Twice. Once with a prostitute.

Imagine that, a man who can be all those great things yet committed adultery... I know it must be mind boggling for some to imagine.

RO THIS IS EXACTLY the one point (lol) I missed out last night! THA WEDDING RING!!!

I'll give you my thoughts:--)

I betcha can't wait! Lol.

Man what's the go with you and your wife giving ALL your power of all decision making to the MC?

Isn't this work a COLLABORATION?

Aren't you 3 a TEAM? Kind of lol thinking of you 2 as teenagers in some areas.

You're not donkeys being led.

YOU ARE A (RE) COMMITTED H as far as I can tell.

So go to a Bubblegum machine and get a plastic ring to wear YOURSELF.

YES DO THIS. If YOU are committed and WANT to wear the commitment externally then DO.

Or go get a cheap ring from a jeweller and hock it afterwards TOGETHER lol.

I ALWAYS wore my wedding & engagement rings. For all those years I seldom took them off. Maybe 5x to wash the car or something.

Then on D Day I took them off.

Feeling that weight off my finger was both so sad but so middle finger to WH.

WH BEGAN wearing his. That made me angry tbh.

It was one of the things OW1 said about his. As though it gave her an excuse to continue and welcome WHs advances.

I seriously don't care what her part in it was.

She had NO responsibility to protect OUR M.

WH did.

I did. And did lol.

Anyway about 6 months after D Day I bought a huge, gaudy (almost comical) ring and wore it on my ring finger.

I had put my Wedding rings on and my skin had a huge reaction to them! Kinda symbolic really. Lol.

I loved those rings for what they STOOD FOR.

Not the person who have them unfaithfully.

Tell your W AND the MC that YOU are fully committed to this M, so you are wearing A WEDDING ring to show this commitment externally.

To the world.

Heavens I hope this MC isn't party to emasculating you. Ugh. Man! you'll have to grow balls the size of Mars to get through this!

Grow them.

And ofcourse I agree with Mikeylo. Nobody needs the external symbol of commitment to BE faithful. No.

But it certainly helps send a strong message to OW (not that most care too much lol) that you are MARRIED. Pick off.

For you RO it could be likened to an extra shield against dealers if you are an addict. Remember dealers just want to GET SOMETHING OUT OF YOU at any cost to the addict.

The deal often costs the addict their whole lives.

As possibly STBexVWH is testimony too. Wow he's SUCH A MESS. And I simply couldn't care any less about anything he's going through. I've often felt glad for the Karma he's copped. Rejoicing which is not my M.O. AT ALL. But the reality is that I simply don't care.

THIS is what WH is so upset about atm.

Grieving heavily for.

The free ATM I'M SURE lol.

The house absolutely.

The kids? Ummmm no. Not unless he didn't score that night and texts them at 1:30am with "Daddy misses you SO MUCH guys. I'm crying in bed". Traditionally that was booty call time for his VBW.

He can hardly text me!

I've warned a Sexual Harrassment charge against him at the very least.

RO If you want the ring. Get the ring. You can make your own decisions.

Lol SEE why the MC sacked us?

But she admitted her errors to me a year later.

But if I followed all the "experts" advice all my life, I wouldn't have 4 children. Nor 3 Degrees.

THIS IS YOUR LIFE.

You're driving it RO.

Take the wheel.

In anything that helps you move forward in the mode you plan to go on.

Lion Heart

October 27, 2016

RO it was only WHEN you drew attention to the 12 step program that I understood the "struggle" (for want of a better description) as comparative to addiction. Or AS an addiction? Please endeavour to extrapolate if you can.

Indeed it must be difficult.

Well I think it is a personal thing. The 12 step program/mens group I joined isn't necessarily because I believe I have an addiction (some are gasping I can hear it - I apologize Im feeling sarcastic today) I believe I had some severe "hang ups" resulting from my childhood. NOT to use them as an excuse! Those combined with problems in my marriage (most being my fault) put me in a frame of mind where I was less willing to remain faithful. Its a fine line trying to explain this. On one hand I sound like Im making excuses (which Im not) on the other hand I WANT to get to the bottom of why this happened.. I am basing a lot of this also on what my therapist has told me which I agree with when I stand back and look at it all.

You are wise to think ahead for future temptations.
Or potential traps you may fall in to.

I agree and It will be my way of life for the future. As I said before it is a slow fade... I can't bear to be that man I was again.

I can understand more fully now that it's far harder for some people to remain faithful than others.

Im not touching that one.

If you understand the CONDITIONS in which YOU took steps, even small ones, towards infidelity then there's a foundational key right there.

I think you may have written boredom in M? I'm not sure.
I know you wrote you were feeling bad about yourself at one point (employment or lack of??) Hopefully these latter points are stable and getting better for now. Though it ALWAYS pays dividends to imagine the worst feelings you had about yourself and being unemployed again - THEN WHAT behaviours would you REPLACE the Internet stuff with??? Service is always a good one for me. You choose your own set of ACTIONS.

Well I know how the progression went for me in the past so while Im not only watching out for a repeat of progression Im also looking out for potential other places to be cautious.

I don't remember if I said I was bored or not. I might have. I know there were times I felt like I wanted to talk to someone but there was no one really (I felt) I could talk to. I work alone in an office and I know in the past I justified talking to women because I needed some human interaction even if just via email. And honestly Id say 99% of conversations were platonic and not in appropriate (other than I was keeping it hidden from my wife of course). I did talk to a few guys as well actually.

I was feeling really bad about myself.. I had downright loads of self hatred. Thoughts of suicide abounded. After the confession and getting right with God a lot of that eased. Then it was just shame of what I had done and that too has all but been taken away completely. I think it takes time go be completely shame free from something like this. Its not something I struggle with though.

Yes My wife has asked me what happens if I have work issues again.. or if something else happens that might have in the past made me act out. A big difference is what I experienced in counseling. I honestly believe it helped me so much understanding my family origin issues and how that abuse/neglect affected me. It has changed me in ways I can't fully explain here. The simple understanding of why I felt the way I did and understanding I didn't deserve what happened to me was big.. So to answer your (and her) question about what Id replace my behaviors with should something bad happen... Answer is Im not sure Id have something to replace. I don't think my insecurities would require that I do something. I don't think I would trigger like before. If however something did trigger me I would first and foremost talk to my wife about it so she knew what I was dealing with. Then perhaps as you say look at service. Look at spending some time working in my garage like I used to.. who knows.

The BOREDOM.
Well imo if you're bored then so is your wife lol.
Women do seem to busy themselves (especially ones very used to being left alone whilst their WH are busy elsewhere) with children, households, other stuff.

Again I think the boredom I was referring to if I said that was generally when I was alone at work or at night when my wife was sleeping or gone some place. Not so much that we were bored in our marriage. We have however talked bout doing some more wild things together to get rid of some of the staleness that had developed.

What are your "MANLY" things you could pursue?
Sure a H doing the housework is downright SEXY for a W lol. Especially.....well I'll leave that to your imagination lol.

From my POV men who seek As want adoration from a wider field than only W. Indeed many Ws stop "adoring" their Hs. Stop hanging off every word etc.

Ha.. "manly" pursuits? lol Actually I do 95% of the cooking. she has always liked to watch me cook and I do actually a fair amount of the cleaning too..

YES that was very true with me. I did want that adoration from women. That in my opinion is about 75% or more of what I was looking for. It was my damn insecurities begging for attention. It was not about the sex. Perhaps thats why porn was never really much of a draw. My wife also stopped adoring me years and years ago. According to our MC she thinks something happened in our first year of marriage 20 years ago! I know there was a time when my wife looked at me like I was her hero but it has been so long since that time. I missed being the guy in her life that she looked at like her protector, her "man" etc.. It was way before the infidelity. But the infidelity obviously just squashed her desire to do any of that of course. But My hope is to get to that place some day. I crave to be that to her and no longer feel like I want it from a surrogate.

I've been observing happy Ms for a long time.
Longstanding happier Ms MAKE TIME for reconnecting in so many ways. OFTEN. It's difficult to SCHEDULE the time out from kids and activities etc. But happy couples do this weekly at least. Some happiest couples do this daily.

I knew a couple still very much in love after 30+ years of M. They had certain things they did that everybody in the family just accepted. 1 thing was going to bed every night at the same time. Even leaving the teenage children still up watching TV. With a curfew lol.
I thought that would drive me crazy but in a lovely relationship it gives time for talking and or intimacy.
It's really just common sense isn't it?

I too can think of at least one couple who take their date nights very seriously. Im hoping we can get to that place in the future where we put our marriage above all else including time with our kids. There are so many things like that which I believe would help us. I actually was the one who wanted to have date nights more than my wife.

People are raving about a Series here on the ABC called "Man Up". Just if you can access it. It could help. I think it's truly dispelling all the myths men feel that women have a consensus attitude towards the modern man. It's helping heal alot of men.

Haven't heard of it.

Anyway BOUNDARIES in one word is what Mermaid waa referring to and OP would have to be cognizant of re- affairs. Who breaks your boundaries? Some OW may attempt to.

Your power and strength comes from all the foundational work you're now doing and will continue to do.

Yes had this discussion with my wife... She says she feels awkward now at work since she told several people about what I did she now feels uneasy as if all the guys she works with now thinks she is looking for a revenge affair. I wish she would have just told a close friend or two and I think she regrets telling so many like she did now. But she told me she is setting new boundaries for herself as well. I obviously as discussed have set many not at her request but Ive told her the things Im doing and have asked her if there are other things She would like me to do I would.

You're not going to throw all that hard fought for work away for the 1 drink that has you fall off the wagon.
You have to decide what that first drink LOOKS like for you. Then abstain lol. Better still then REPLACE it with something from your happy foundational list.

That being said I'll abstain from LS lol and get to sleep!
Although for me, LS I hope is a healthy "addiction".

Lion Heart

Exactly Im staying away from that first drink to continue your anology but am also staying away from any other type of behavior that isn't promoting my relationship with my wife or God.

Oh no! An LS addiction? Well at least it is somewhat healthy right?

October 27, 2016

RO THIS IS EXACTLY the one point (lol) I missed out last night! THA WEDDING RING!!!

I'll give you my thoughts:--)

I betcha can't wait! Lol.

Man what's the go with you and your wife giving ALL your power of all decision making to the MC?
Isn't this work a COLLABORATION?
Aren't you 3 a TEAM? Kind of lol thinking of you 2 as teenagers in some areas.
You're not donkeys being led.

I know it probably looks that way doesn't it. I think we trust our MC. I am also trying to do whatever my wife needs/wants. She seemed to like the idea of me not wearing my ring. She took hers off right after the confession.

YOU ARE A (RE) COMMITTED H as far as I can tell.
So go to a Bubblegum machine and get a plastic ring to wear YOURSELF.
YES DO THIS. If YOU are committed and WANT to wear the commitment externally then DO.
Or go get a cheap ring from a jeweller and hock it afterwards TOGETHER lol.

I ALWAYS wore my wedding & engagement rings. For all those years I seldom took them off. Maybe 5x to wash the car or something.

Interesting... Hadn't considered doing that. Im honestly not sure how that would play with my wife. Would she think I was just thinking I had done enough now and was back to being married as I want? I am a (re) committed H as you put it for sure. It bugs me not wearing the symbol for some reason. I don't like looking like a single man (not that anyone is looking at me and even noticed Im not wearing a ring).. its just something in my mind. Ill have to think about your suggestion.

I have worn that ring for 21+ years and it created a dent in my finger lol. .The dent is still there. Im not a jewelry type guy but I miss my ring. My plan was to get new rings some day and either throw the others off a cliff or have them melted down and used in new rings.. not sure.. just some symbolistic thoughts I had.

Tell your W AND the MC that YOU are fully committed to this M, so you are wearing A WEDDING ring to show this commitment externally.

To the world.

I like the idea. Im going to think about that.

Heavens I hope this MC isn't party to emasculating you. Ugh. Man! you'll have to grow balls the size of Mars to get through this!

Grow them.

Ha.. balls are fully intact. Im just trying to do everything I can to do what my wife wants/needs. My MC actually tells me that things my wife has done has emasculated me in some ways. Not putting blame on my wife at all here.. just that my MC says that the way our relationship had evolved from early on my wife would not voice her opinions to me. She would instead resent me when I made decisions I thought were for the best for our family that she didn't agree with even though she never told me she didn't agree with them. Anyway thats a whole other topic and really complicated. But I get what you are saying. I don't cower to our mighty MC at all lol.

RO If you want the ring. Get the ring. You can make your own decisions.
Lol SEE why the MC sacked us?
But she admitted her errors to me a year later.
But if I followed all the "experts" advice all my life, I wouldn't have 4 children. Nor 3 Degrees.

THIS IS YOUR LIFE.
You're driving it RO.
Take the wheel.
In anything that helps you move forward in the mode you plan to go on.

Lion Heart

Ok again I like what you are saying.. Just wondering what it says to my BW. I don't want her to look at it as a sign that "I've done my part now Im waiting for you to do yours"....

October 27, 2016

Dear RO,

I came on LS to expand on a previously mentioned concept but will leave that till afterwards.

I am SO SO GLAD your BW has the lists of forums you're in and your passwords.

I am not looking for a "connection" with you RO, I am only typed words on a forum attempting to give WISE counsel (lol oh rofl maybe share personal experience of betrayal in two Ms) to a wayward husband (past tense). Indeed I hope for your wife and you, what you hope for yourselves.

From the land downunder :-). A million miles away!

(In saying that my boyfriend and I met here yay! Although I could never have imagined a million miles away could feel so close. It's wonderful).

Yeah the ring.

Covey comes to mind.

"We judge other people's ACTIONS by our own INTENTIONS".

If you are able to make your INTENTIONS explicitly clear to BW then I hope you can have your wish.

It's important that YOU have things you want in R too.

Crikeys now I sound like I'm on your side! Omg.

I'm on humanity's side really.

The ring is important and without it you feel blahhhg.

Indeed you understand the M is not in tact.

You can think of ways to express to BW YOUR intentions and feelings on the matter.

WITH NO PRESSURE on BW at all.

Kinda like a "Reconciliation ring" lol.

Yes indeed it's a very difficult topic. Rings. I know where I'd like to shove mine when STBexVWH DEMANDED them back this year! ROFL I PAID FOR THEM. From a "joint account" he contributed so little too. He surprised me with very expensive rings. STBEXVWH wanted to sell them and pay the debts he accrued.

Nope.

They're mine.

He stole them. Lol.

Returned them when he and his mother realized they needed a Driver's License TO sell them here.

Sighhhh rules for the criminal elements in society.

Gotta love em.

Anyway to the MC.

Great! You need to have trust in your MC.

OURS was an "expert" here with "over 44y experience as a Psychologist, head of ----- Hospital for over a decade blah blah blah". Which is the speil she ranted to me. It's not that I didn't trust HER. I felt FOR SURE WH was lying.

She was trying to force HER counsel and make me complicit in remaining in DENIAL.

Sorry RO.

SHE WAS WRONG.

She admitted as much this year. She also offered to represent me in Court AGAINST WH. For free lol...aha God on my side again.

MCs can be in over their heads and too egotistical to admit their short comings and refer you on.

Which brings me to the INITIAL STEP of all 12 Step Programs RO. Isn't it something like admitting you have a problem (in extended literature - accepting you will always have this problem)??

There's a difference between the existing factors that "created" this problem AND the ACT being the problem itself. Harking back to many OP who had horrible mothers (lol hand up too here) but didn't cheat. I'm merely different to you.

If the initial acceptance ISN'T undertaken by participants in any program then the false pride is withholding you from fully accepting counsel and healing IMHO.

That's why it's a USELESS PURSUIT for anybody to FORCE MC or IC or any therapy on their spouse. Gosh I booked my own appts and if WH wanted MC then HE would have to book it. I was DONE on D Day. I booked IC for myself and REFUSED to book his. I willingly attended MC but you see it's different to your experience IF both parties are HONEST and TRANSPARENT throughout the process.

Ofcourse I booked the GP appt when I could see "the little boy" in WH was trembling and shattered over the "full disclosures" (they were only some of the wayward behaviours not ALL). I felt it my duty as a mother to our children to BEGIN and support the process of various therapies and medications for WH in preparation for GETTING HIM OUT. He was COMPLETELY unstable.

I pray the weekend couples therapies will HIT THE target on the precise issues you are each personally facing now. As you said, they've ALREADY got a session on EXACTLY the topic you're hungry for strategies for.

This is closer to "expert" remediation imo.

I wish not to distract you from the important work of R.

I will pop back later to pass on information re:

A) the abuse topic raised earlier, &

B) the interesting information regarding healing for men in such situations.

NO STONE LEFT UNTURNED! May as well get all the dirty laundry out lol.

It's a marathon you're running now RO.

Hope you're looking after yourself.

Lion Heart

October 27, 2016

Dear RO,
I am SO SO GLAD your BW has the lists of forums you're in and your passwords.

Im actually glad she asked for them. I gave her my Face book access too.. I don't have anything to hide any more. Im done with all that. So unlike before where Id get nervous leaving my phone laying around even password protected now I am in a constant state of calm and peace. Having nothing to hide is a good thing. I ended up just getting a GPS ap on my phone and sent her the link twice. She finally relented and installed the ap so now she also has my whereabouts known if she ever wants to look. I told her I encourage her to look and to check on me, not because I think she needs to but because I want her (in time) to start to develop trust again. I also just like knowing she wants to know what Im up to. I hope she just pops in some day while Im in my apartment without telling me ahead of time. Ok there might be ulterior motives there lol. My point is NO MORE SECRETES.

I am not looking for a "connection" with you RO, I am only typed words on a forum attempting to give WISE counsel (lol oh rofl maybe share personal experience of betrayal in two Ms) to a wayward husband (past tense). Indeed I hope for your wife and you, what you hope for yourselves.

Oh I know and Im glad. You are somewhat genderless in my mind. You are a BS and thats all I need to know so I can understand your reference point. Where else can I go to talk to other Betrayed Spouses? I need to pick at the brains of others in the shoes of my wife. I want to do everything humanly possible for her benefit from here on out. So if I can gleam something from someone else who has been in her shoes in hopes of making her healing faster, easier etc.. why not do it? The absolute last thing I want to do is hurt that woman more than I already have.

Yeah the ring.
Covey comes to mind.
"We judge other people's ACTIONS by our own INTENTIONS".
If you are able to make your INTENTIONS explicitly clear to BW then I hope you can have your wish.
It's important that YOU have things you want in R too.
Crikeys now I sound like I'm on your side! Omg.
I'm on humanity's side really.

The ring is important and without it you feel blahhhg.

Indeed you understand the M is not in tact.

You can think of ways to express to BW YOUR intentions and feelings on the matter.

WITH NO PRESSURE on BW at all.

Kinda like a "Reconciliation ring" lol.

Crikeys? lol.. Ive never seen that spelled out before. Makes me laugh. You are right. In my mind I love my wife and only want her to be my wife and want more than anything to recommit to her for the rest of my life. My mind was made up months ago on what I wanted. My previous wedding ring the original one was betrayed by my decision but there is nothing that says I can't wear a ring at this moment if that symbol is important to me.

Yes I do understand the marriage is not intact because my wife has said as much and we are separated. So yes I could use it as a way to also show my wife with out any pressure that Im in this. I am doing the work and though my terrible choices don't show it, I do love her and fully intend to do what it takes to reconcile. Its a reconciliation ring. I love it.

Which brings me to the INITIAL STEP of all 12 Step Programs RO. Isn't it something like admitting you have a problem (in extended literature - accepting you will always have this problem)??

There's a difference between the existing factors that "created" this problem AND the ACT being the problem itself. Harking back to many OP who had horrible mothers (lol hand up too here) but didn't cheat. I'm merely different to you.

If the initial acceptance ISN'T undertaken by participants in any program then the false pride is withholding you from fully accepting counsel and healing IMHO.

My program called "celebrate recovery" is a Christian based 12 step but still similar to the traditional program. And yes it is something like that.

"Admit I am powerless over my addictions and compulsive behaviors, that my life has become unmanageable"

You are right in all that you say. I agree with it and with the first step principal. The grey areas are sometimes for me discussing all of this on this forum and even to an extent with my wife. If I tell her I am powerless I fear that she takes that to mean I will repeat this again and again because I just can't stop. So while I admitted to myself, God and my mens group that I am indeed powerless I am careful to choose words carefully here and with my wife because I'm trying to convey that yes I have some big damn hang ups I'm working on but that doesn't mean Im going to go out and do this again. I fully understand that the existing factors (being my marriage problems and my childhood abuse issues) did not make me into an adulterer. I own it. I decided to do what I did. I think ultimately that is the one of if not the first step any person who did what I did MUST get to. Placing blame on their spouse or anywhere else for their decision only shows that they don't fully get it. This is a difficult subject to type a few sentences on and fully convey the thoughts but Ill leave it at that.

That's why it's a USELESS PURSUIT for anybody to FORCE MC or IC or any therapy on their spouse. Gosh I booked my own appts and if WH wanted MC then HE would have to book it. I was DONE on D Day. I booked IC for myself and REFUSED to book his. I willingly attended MC but you see it's different to your experience IF both parties are HONEST and TRANSPARENT throughout the process.

Ab so frickin lutely! TO force someone to go to counseling serves no purpose. I guess they might over time gain something out of it but to truly heal or fix their issues they have to want to.

I pray the weekend couples therapies will HIT THE target on the precise issues you are each personally facing now. As you said, they've ALREADY got a session on EXACTLY the topic you're hungry for strategies for.
This is closer to "expert" remediation imo.

I have a lot of optimism for the weekend EMS (Emergency Marriage Seminar). Ive seen some amazing testimonies on how it really helped both the BS and the WS. There is a lot of individual work as well as couples. I have heard about one of the exercises being that the WS has to write a letter of what having the affair(s) has cost the BS in their life and then reading it to them in person infront of a small group. That sounds very intense. The man to told me about it was a guy who was a marine and been in combat. He said this was the most difficult thing he has ever had to do. As hard as it is Im can't wait for the retreat.

I wish not to distract you from the important work of R.
I will pop back later to pass on information re:
A) the abuse topic raised earlier, &
B) the interesting information regarding healing for men in such situations.

NO STONE LEFT UNTURNED! May as well get all the dirty laundry out lol.

It's a marathon you're running now RO.
Hope you're looking after yourself.

Lion Heart

You know I would appreciate that. I had quite a bit of IC on that subject (my abuse/neglect) prior to my confession (a little after too). Ive worked through a lot of it but I know there is work left to do. Its not something Ive really ever talked much about to others. A little to my wife, a little to my mens group and a fair amount to my counselor. Like many things these days Im done keeping things inside.

October 28, 2016

RO as my H retreated from this M, family and me, it became a very lonely VERY lonely life. I do wonder ofcourse if he was ever "committed" or faithful etc.

My wondering is over pretty quickly.

I'm quite definitely sure he wasn't.

This makes it all the more easier for complete detachment from WH for me. You can read the stories of dreaming of Tigers, Raena, certainly Merrmeade and so many others.

But the ONE story to fully attend to will be your BWs.

She appears NOT to be able to fully articulate her pain.

These WILD feelings of confusion are there constantly.

The "triggers" are indescribable.

There's so much to be gained for your BW to share her story. Gain support. Do what SHE needs to get her words around her pain. I find being able to articulate it all makes it easier to FOCUS one's healing / research in those areas. The healing may be faster. I believe in my case it has been.

BW needs to feel she's not alone.

I'm glad she told some work mates.

I couldn't work properly for a solid 3 months. That was 4 months after D Day. Not even now IMHO.

But MASSIVELY improved.

Still not now nearly 2y post D Day.

When I read 9 WEEKS! In your post.

Heavens.

SUCH EARLY days for BW.

Far too long for you. I'm sure.

WH would always say to me "Let's put ALL THIS in our past and start over. Never mention it again blah blah blah".

Yesterday I learnt in the DV Course I'm attending that this is what ALL abusers say.

They prefer to force their spouse into a state of denial.

And after enough work in a 12 Step Program you'll know ALL about the Merry-go-round of denial.

Someone HAS TO GET OFF it.

RO obviously you have absolutely decided to get off that Merry-go-round. Has your BW?

She may still be swirling crazily in her mind. I was at 9 weeks post D Day! I ask this because she once said she'd wished you'd never told her?

BW choosing denial now is certainly going to throw the "balance of power" completely OUT OF KILTER moving forward. But she needs to GRIEVE.

The GRIEF I experienced this time, I'd never known before throughout my whole entire life. Considering I'd lost my brother, father, closest most gorgeous grandparents. So many relatives I loved both young and old in addition to these.

I KNEW grief.

Though I'd never known THIS grief.

I know why now. Within days the Psychologist called it grief.

Grief healing takes a LONG time to heal from.

To offer BW words to DESCRIBE her possible feelings....look I know you're afraid to A,B or C. You don't WANT to tell BW how she's feeling. Ofcourse not.

I think BW is struggling big time.

I'm really hoping the weekend course supports her in all ways. She doesn't appear to be accessing support networks that KNOW THESE feelings she's having. Or this experience.

Maybe you had further to come but imo you may surpass her in development. That's all good too but be aware of this BALANCE out of kilter in a different way.

Tbh I'm not comfortable revealing to you a whole set of OTHER uncomfortable sets of information right now!

It just seems far too much atm.

Delving into and exposing childhood trauma online can be extraordinarily confronting. I'm not sure where you are with that? Maybe wait until the flourish of further learnings post the weekend and the level you're at then the venture.

RELIVING trauma is not what you need IMO.

Though I'm certain you're fully aware that without really pulling that apart, the life you begin again may only have had a "cosmetic makeover".

I feel arrogant saying "not now" but alot of my own professional life is in this field.

BACK to the 12 step program.

A person who has PARTICIPATED in these programs and successfully remained "sober" will understand that to accept you are powerless IS the first step to GAIN the freedom of sobriety.

OP outside these programs don't understand the process. You must do as you feel in how much you expose to OP. Anywhere.

The full and complete transparency IS between you and God. Indeed as you say it is SUCH A WONDERFUL LIFE living in the truth every day. I WISH ALL PEOPLE could know this freedom. It's beautiful.

The calm is inexplicable.

Fear is another realm.

I learnt recently that ANGER is usually based in fear.

Mine has been anyway lol.

The "safety" of R you are offering BW may not be able to be assimilated yet by her.

She may still be fearful for good reason.

Holding her steady by your words may help.

Actions mean alot more.

In my case I knew WH to be a well crafted liar.

Nothing's changed there! Lol.

The ONLY thing I asked WH for in the past 6 months was HONESTY. I would never ask personal questions. Who he screws nor where he goes is simply none of my business nor do I care.

HONESTY regarding the children and his secret debts that implicate ME therefore DO impede the children.

As the only responsible parent is me.

Yet HONESTY eludes him.

I have seen his grieving now. Only this year.

I believe he's experiencing some version of remorse but possibly only missing the free money.

ABSOLUTELY missing the emotional support.

Definitely my cooking! Lol.

But I digress to come to the point. GET YOUR thoughts and words around WHAT about BW do you love?

What do you miss?

Etcetera.

Because there'll be that time in that Course where you want to SHOW BW that you have thought long and hard about her as an individual. A woman. A lover. A companion. Etc. You'd hate to be lost for words.

I doubt you will lol!

And just a point about Counselling for you.

Remember J had a traumatic childhood. Horrible.

Serial cheater over 25y M.

D Day he was kicked out. After they had sex.

She just couldn't go through with a R.

He is still attending IC 6y out. I can't reveal too much about him due to his celebrity type status here but because of his careers etc no one would expect him to be crying his heart out.

He has to me. So many times.

It's heart wrenching.

He believes he will always need IC.

It's best not to try to predict the future.

"One day at a time" hey?

:-))

Lion Heart

October 28, 2016

RO as my H retreated from this M, family and me, it became a very lonely VERY lonely life. I do wonder ofcourse if he was ever "committed" or faithful etc.

My wondering is over pretty quickly.

I'm quite definitely sure he wasn't.

This makes it all the more easier for complete detachment from WH for me. You can read the stories of dreaming of Tigers, Raena, certainly Merrmeade and so many others.

But the ONE story to fully attend to will be your BWs.

She appears NOT to be able to fully articulate her pain.

These WILD feelings of confusion are there constantly.

The "triggers" are indescribable.

There's so much to be gained for your BW to share her story. Gain support. Do what SHE needs to get her words around her pain. I find being able to articulate it all makes it easier to FOCUS one's healing / research in those areas. The healing may be faster. I believe in my case it has been.

BW needs to feel she's not alone.

I'm glad she told some work mates.

I couldn't work properly for a solid 3 months. That was 4 months after D Day. Not even now IMHO.

But MASSIVELY improved.

Still not now nearly 2y post D Day.

When I read 9 WEEKS! In your post.

Heavens.

SUCH EARLY days for BW.

Far too long for you. I'm sure.

WH would always say to me "Let's put ALL THIS in our past and start over. Never mention it again blah blah blah".

Yesterday I learnt in the DV Course I'm attending that this is what ALL abusers say.

They prefer to force their spouse into a state of denial.

And after enough work in a 12 Step Program you'll know ALL about the Merry-go-round of denial.

Someone HAS TO GET OFF it.

RO obviously you have absolutely decided to get off that Merry-go-round. Has your BW?

She may still be swirling crazily in her mind. I was at 9 weeks post D Day! I ask this because she once said she'd wished you'd never told her?

BW choosing denial now is certainly going to throw the "balance of power" completely OUT OF KILTER moving forward. But she needs to GRIEVE.

The GRIEF I experienced this time, I'd never known before throughout my whole entire life. Considering I'd lost my brother, father, closest most gorgeous grandparents. So many relatives I loved both young and old in addition to these.

I KNEW grief.

Though I'd never known THIS grief.

I know why now. Within days the Psychologist called it grief.

Grief healing takes a LONG time to heal from.

To offer BW words to DESCRIBE her possible feelings....look I know you're afraid to A,B or C. You don't WANT to tell BW how she's feeling. Ofcourse not.

I think BW is struggling big time.

I'm really hoping the weekend course supports her in all ways. She doesn't appear to be accessing support networks that KNOW THESE feelings she's having. Or this experience.

Maybe you had further to come but imo you may surpass her in development. That's all good too but be aware of this BALANCE out of kilter in a different way.

Tbh I'm not comfortable revealing to you a whole set of OTHER uncomfortable sets of information right now!

It just seems far too much atm.

Delving into and exposing childhood trauma online can be extraordinarily confronting. I'm not sure where you are with that? Maybe wait until the flourish of further learnings post the weekend and the level you're at then the venture.

RELIVING trauma is not what you need IMO.

Though I'm certain you're fully aware that without really pulling that apart, the life you begin again may only have had a "cosmetic makeover".

I feel arrogant saying "not now" but alot of my own professional life is in this field.

BACK to the 12 step program.

A person who has PARTICIPATED in these programs and successfully remained "sober" will understand that to accept you are powerless IS the first step to GAIN the freedom of sobriety.

OP outside these programs don't understand the process. You must do as you feel in how much you expose to OP. Anywhere.

The full and complete transparency IS between you and God. Indeed as you say it is SUCH A WONDERFUL LIFE living in the truth every day. I WISH ALL PEOPLE could know this freedom. It's beautiful.

The calm is inexplicable.

Fear is another realm.

I learnt recently that ANGER is usually based in fear.

Mine has been anyway lol.

The "safety" of R you are offering BW may not be able to be assimilated yet by her.

She may still be fearful for good reason.

Holding her steady by your words may help.

Actions mean alot more.

In my case I knew WH to be a well crafted liar.

Nothing's changed there! Lol.

The ONLY thing I asked WH for in the past 6 months was HONESTY. I would never ask personal questions. Who he screws nor where he goes is simply none of my business nor do I care.

HONESTY regarding the children and his secret debts that implicate ME therefore DO impede the children.

As the only responsible parent is me.

Yet HONESTY eludes him.

I have seen his grieving now. Only this year.

I believe he's experiencing some version of remorse but possibly only missing the free money.

ABSOLUTELY missing the emotional support.

Definitely my cooking! Lol.

But I digress to come to the point. GET YOUR thoughts and words around WHAT about BW do you love?

What do you miss?

Etcetera.

Because there'll be that time in that Course where you want to SHOW BW that you have thought long and hard about her as an individual. A woman. A lover. A companion. Etc. You'd hate to be lost for words.

I doubt you will lol!

And just a point about Counselling for you.

Remember J had a traumatic childhood. Horrible.

Serial cheater over 25y M.

D Day he was kicked out. After they had sex.

She just couldn't go through with a R.

He is still attending IC 6y out. I can't reveal too much about him due to his celebrity type status here but because of his careers etc no one would expect him to be crying his heart out.

He has to me. So many times.

It's heart wrenching.

He believes he will always need IC.

It's best not to try to predict the future.

"One day at a time" hey?

:-))

Lion Heart

October 28, 2016

Watching other committed men I meant was, watch how they behave. Their body, facial language. Not talking about their personal lives! Committed men don't touch other women. They don't make it their job to make other women laugh, they stand straight , they don't give the pelvis posture, they don't make eye contact , dont look out for women to make friends,etc etc. This behavior is for flirting , picking up women. Yours was online as well. They don't ' like' , they don't comment, they don't initiate !

Your wife closed off to you because when you came to her, your emotional tank was already full from other women. What did you have to offer her emotionally ? Your cheating with other women pushed her away. She might have even suspected. Has she ever said that now?

Your wife seems to have forgiven you, without saying it. Her actions say so but I guess it's as long struggle for her to trust you again. Wrong. For you to become trustworthy.

While you are choosing to not reply but I would say again. She IS always thinking what you are upto , who are you chatting up, why is that woman laughing with you, why did you keep your shirt away differently etc etc. I guess, she is not letting it on because she stopped complaining long ago and chose to internalize. Because telling you backfired or you rejected her reasoning.

Since she gave her all, and got a cheater in return, she must be very lonely inside.

October 28, 2016

I slept on it and decided that, although I'm not the keeper of this knowledge lol, to withhold is arrogant. To be a conduit is important.

I guess this info goes into serious realms indeed.

I guess part of me held back from expanding on specific POINTS I mentioned previously because you rejected those. Not that I'm hurt lol I see possibly you're not READY. Not accepting powerlessness but I think you could be. IDK. But other things...

I have a busy period of my life approaching in the next days, weeks & months. It's good to not procrastinate. For me.

As a footnote my eldest D us studying psychology. I get information from 6+ psychologists now 1:1 or in group form. For my healing sure! For my LEARNING more precisely.

1. The Cycle of Violence is something you would wise in studying. For these reasons.

The "Explosion" stage for abusers in Infidelity comes in specific forms ie affairs, online stuff with OW...let's say ANYTHING YOU DO with OW that you wouldn't share excitedly with your BW and certainly you'd INCLUDE your BW in those relationships.

NOT HIDE them.

Your BW has had these cycles in her life abusing her.

Possibly other behaviours occurred during EXPLOSION (esp if you couldn't get your FIX of OW immediately) and took that out on your BW. Noting a few could be paasive aggressive, aggressive too IDK, withdrawing, withholding (obviously), blaming BW for YOUR mood or circumstance. Stuff like that.

It hit the nail on the head when you were saying your BW wasn't expressing herself etc.

Looking at the Cycle of Violence will have you see why.

She's backed herself into a corner. Many women cower.

I didn't but I still WAS BACKED into that corner.

There's no other place for some women to go (they think) but INTO THEMSELVES.

They learn to be emotionally independent of you.

Independent in every way. (Oh yes I can hear you arguing the point and DO but everything you've done and the situation now makes this clear to me).

If you asked STBexVWH he would describe me thus:

"the most most beautiful woman in the world....the most loving woman he's ever known....the STRONGEST woman he's ever known....the SMARTEST woman....blah blah blah "

If you can see?

I am not what most people would THINK of as a long term victim of domestic violence but indeed I AM.

In fact without studies to prove this but we know this to be true.... women who HAVE BEEN BACKED into the corner for SO MANY years and all but closed down from DEPENDING ON THEIR Hs because they virtually had no choice....kick the WH out.

BW doesn't NEED you. She's deciding if she WANTS YOU.

So far....sure sex? I get that.

The sex experienced and sought by BWs after D Day is called something lol..can't remember I'M WAY PAST THAT lol. Mermaid knows the term.

It's completely DIFFERENT sex to before.

WSs may say better!

I say AWFUL. At 10 weeks post D Day I REMEMBER how I was feeling. It's just horrible. WH would say that I really enjoyed it pffffft. He had NO IDEA the mind movies playing on 25 cinema screens in my head of HIS BITS being in OWs things. Etcetera

I put on a fantastic SHOW.

I had to.

I was DETERMINED to save my family.

I didn't know HOW. This was the only way.

****in this cycle you will see the male role.

A man trying to APPEAR as a man to the whole world, but actually a VERY HURT and damaged little boy.

I don't wish to "bash" you lol I think you'd know it if I was trying.

I'm HOPING YOU SEE this information. Google it. Get it and SEE.

There are free DV Courses men's groups.

For the 10 or 15 DV Courses running for women back to back & concurrently there is ONE for men. Mostly filled with men there by Court Order. So far as I know NO MAN who took himself there has completed the Course.

They "just don't want to know" so the Merry-go-round of denial continues. Into wives lives. OWs lives. CHILDREN'S lives. Boys learning this is OK because dad got away with it.

The ACTIONS of reconciliation IMO are damaging children's futures but that my opinion. VWH learnt this.

Hence their ANGER that I didn't COMPLY with that family's modus operandii.

Not only would I NEVER tolerate a bf cheating.

I WALK immediately.

Why should it be any different in M?

I believe it's MORE important BECAUSE of the children.

My Ds learn "gosh dad cheated...all men cheat...I will have to PUT up with this in M". Lol my eldest D refuses to M and I believe this is the reason why. My youngest D is adamant too. We'll see!

My twins are EYES WIDE OPEN for gfs that show fidelity in all ways even at their young ages.

Look at the Little Boy part of the cycle. I know you've shown work in this field. IMO THIS IS where your major work lies. To become WHOLE.

Lastly (I hope!) For now at least...there are 7 FORMS of Abuse. Not exclusive to ONE partner's actions.

But women living with an abusive man are often REACTING to the abuse.

Forms of abuse overlap.

Spiritual - using guilt and shame of religious forms to weild power over victims through religious expectations.

I'm so glad for my ability to DIRECT religious tyrants to pages in their own gospel that ALLOW D for infidelity.

Physical - hopefully obvious.

Verbal - yes too.

Sexual - marital rape is obvious but not always to the victim. Cheating is sexual abuse in M. And exposing BW to STDs and STIs is physical abuse too. Doing acts a woman does not want to do. This list goes on.

Making her wear overly modest or overly revealing dress etc.

Social - creating isolation.

Financial abuse - sure gambling and excess drinking & drug taking are obvious. More insidious are NOT working during "work hours" and instead using this time for affairs. See the cross over??? Using online porn or chat rooms INSTEAD of working. (Seriously some men just should never marry).

And ofcourse we come to the ONE THAT UNDERLIES all others

Emotional Abuse - this form of abuse is laden throughout the others. So yes RO affairs and infidelity IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE but indeed it's SEXUAL abuse because it's SEX lol and Physical because you're opening up AVENUES for your BW to get ILL unbeknownst to herself. Financial because hey wasting time doing non- work activities.

And emotional because of the withholding RELATIONSHIP during As and the devastation after D Day. The grief experienced by BSs is second to nothing IME but I can imagine the death of one of my children.

There you are. I'm off to cook for my lesbian friends visiting soon. We're just about a NO MEN zone here! Lol.

Yay.

Best wishes

Lion Heart

Praying for reconciliation

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