Epidemic Social Crisis

[mrldii]

...It's not a matter of a nice guy wanting to emulate what the jerk is doing, it's more like the nice guy is irritated and disillusioned by the fact that being a jerk seems to work for guys.

 

I love women. I don't want to have to treat some girl like a POS in order to get a date, so I don't. However, I know guys personally who lie, manipulate, cheat on, disrespect, and use women at almost every given opportunity, unabashedly, and those ladies cannot get enough of it. When guys like me were raised and taught to respect women and treat them very well, it's easy to lose heart when we see an otherwise nice, decent girl happily let some douchebag treat her like a dog.

 

 

"Nice Guys" should stop being attracted to the women who enjoy being treated "like a dog" by "some douchebag";

 

obviously, these are not the type of women who would appreciate a "Nice Guy".

 

 

But, there's the double-edged sword: "feminists" [*horrors* *shudder*] are the least likely to enjoy being treated "like a dog" by "some douchebag"...or by anyone for that matter, and won't tolerate it, even for a nano-second. And, "feminists" let it be known.

 

For some *odd* reason "Nice Guys" aren't too terribly fond of "feminists"...

 

 

...at least to hear it told on online discussion boards.

 

 

So, it appears it really comes down to one thing: "Nice Guys" are resentful that they can't get away with treating a woman "like a dog", like a "douchebag" can...

 

...not that they're upset that they can't find a woman who won't accept being "treated like a dog."

[preraph]

"Nice Guys" should stop being attracted to the women who enjoy being treated "like a dog" by "some douchebag";

 

obviously, these are not the type of women who would appreciate a "Nice Guy".

 

 

But, there's the double-edged sword: "feminists" [*horrors* *shudder*] are the least likely to enjoy being treated "like a dog" by "some douchebag"...or by anyone for that matter, and won't tolerate it, even for a nano-second. And, "feminists" let it be known.

 

For some *odd* reason "Nice Guys" aren't too terribly fond of "feminists"...

 

 

...at least to hear it told on online discussion boards.

 

 

So, it appears it really comes down to one thing: "Nice Guys" are resentful that they can't get away with treating a woman "like a dog", like a "douchebag" can...

 

...not that they're upset that they can't find a woman who won't accept being "treated like a dog."

 

Thank you. Whining about bad guys getting women is nothing but an excuse not to face their own shortcomings and reality. They know full well that a lot of guys do treat women like crap but that women don't intentionally sign up for it but get tricked into it. It's BS.

[preraph]

Look, I'm not a mod, but I'm just going to remind you that the intention of my original post was to encourage parents to see to it that their kid gets the basic social skills and doesn't let them become cloistered and fearful.

 

I think we all know where these threads about guys whining about not being able to get the women they want always ends up, and it's never pretty, and usually gets the thread locked.

[Wave Rider]

Look, I'm not a mod, but I'm just going to remind you that the intention of my original post was to encourage parents to see to it that their kid gets the basic social skills and doesn't let them become cloistered and fearful.

 

I think we all know where these threads about guys whining about not being able to get the women they want always ends up, and it's never pretty, and usually gets the thread locked.

 

Yes, this thread did get off-topic. I've actually met very few people who are truly socially inept, even in physics, which is where you'd expect to find an unusually large number of socially inept people.

 

I've met many people who are totally inept at intimate relationships, but I see that as being much different than lacking basic social skills. Many people who are terrible relationship partners are actually quite socially popular and have a large number of relatively superficial friendships. I can think of a few people I know in physics and math who have plenty of personal charm and seem like social butterflies, but have basically zero intimate relationship history.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Wave Rider

[mrldii]

I know it's popular to believe the lessening of social skills became a *problem* with the advent of video games, technological devices, and social media, but I wonder if it doesn't go back further than that. In the face of *billions and billions* being provided to schools from the lottery proceeds, we've been cutting spending on The Arts for decades. Studies have shown that whether one is good at painting, drawing, playing a musical instrument isn't important; what IS lost is necessary neurological connections and pathways, which are so vital to overall performance.

 

 

 

School Art Programs: Should They Be Saved? - Law Street

[basil67]

I need to give a shout out to all the wonderful teens my daughter hangs with. They hang in mixed groups at school and are very comfortable with the opposite sex. (Yay for co-ed public schooling). They are hard working, high achieving, supportive of each other, respectful in relationships, to their teachers and (mostly) to their parents.

 

You don't need charm school and dance lessons if your kids go to co-ed school and are taught manners at home.

 

PS - while I was writing this, my daughter just texted to tell me that she tried a new technique for maths and got 100% on an exam.

[katiegrl]

I know it's popular to believe the lessening of social skills became a *problem* with the advent of video games, technological devices, and social media, but I wonder if it doesn't go back further than that. In the face of *billions and billions* being provided to schools from the lottery proceeds, we've been cutting spending on The Arts for decades. Studies have shown that whether one is good at painting, drawing, playing a musical instrument isn't important; what IS lost is necessary neurological connections and pathways, which are so vital to overall performance.

 

 

 

School Art Programs: Should They Be Saved? - Law Street

 

I think it's a combination of all those things. The invent of social media, lack of adequate parenting, and what you just described above is a HUGE part of it too.

 

I hadn't thought of it.... but yeah I agree.

[basil67]

Uh, parents are expecting the school system to "raise" their kids...that's another big problem too.

 

There was a time schools actually did that. I grew up in a time/place where in public schools religion, civics and home economics were required courses and teachers could hit you with a ruler.

 

In the U.S., however, our schools aren't teaching the kids of any value. Which bathroom they can use depending on what gender they "think" they are and giving out sex ed/condoms is more important.

 

Then, when the kids act up at school, the parents just wanna sue the schools - so schools don't wanna get involved in shaping kids, unless our government wants to impose another attempt at social engineering (which they are being successful at).

 

I obviously grew up at the same time as you and there are certain parts which I'm glad have changed.

 

Religion has no place in a secular public school. If you want religion, go to church. I have no idea what civics are - perhaps we called it a different name? Home economics should be taught by parents. My 16yo daughter has never taken home economics, but can bake like a demon and has half a dozen main meals up her sleeve. Why spend valuable lesson time learning what her father and I can teach her when there are more relevant lessons for her desired career? As for the ruler, I don't believe that violence solves problems. As evidenced by those kids back in our day who got the ruler or cane on a weekly basis. If the ruler solved things, it wouldn't need to be repeated.

 

You don't want sex ed in schools? I guess you find teen pregnancy preferable. And there was plenty of that back in our day!! haha. And what's wrong with gender neutral bathrooms? It's hardly the end of the world.

 

However, I do agree that parents are far too bossy with schools. Mind you, if our governments don't give the teachers adequate pay, support and respect - they hardly inspire parents to do the same.

[preraph]

Yes, this thread did get off-topic. I've actually met very few people who are truly socially inept, even in physics, which is where you'd expect to find an unusually large number of socially inept people.

 

I've met many people who are totally inept at intimate relationships, but I see that as being much different than lacking basic social skills. Many people who are terrible relationship partners are actually quite socially popular and have a large number of relatively superficial friendships. I can think of a few people I know in physics and math who have plenty of personal charm and seem like social butterflies, but have basically zero intimate relationship history.

 

Yes, they come in every imaginable variety, don't they? And I think we all go through an awkward time, but the goal is to practice and work through it by around college age, or it's a lot of wasted years waiting for life to bestow something better upon you.

[preraph]

I know it's popular to believe the lessening of social skills became a *problem* with the advent of video games, technological devices, and social media, but I wonder if it doesn't go back further than that. In the face of *billions and billions* being provided to schools from the lottery proceeds, we've been cutting spending on The Arts for decades. Studies have shown that whether one is good at painting, drawing, playing a musical instrument isn't important; what IS lost is necessary neurological connections and pathways, which are so vital to overall performance.

 

 

 

School Art Programs: Should They Be Saved? - Law Street

 

Yes, and those are all good group activities, too, that force you to perform. Gym has also gone by the wayside many places, because there's a lot of shy or unsocial people who don't want to attend gym. But they need to. I realize there could be some bullying, but it's better to learn to deal with that when young than at your first job, isn't it?

[preraph]

I need to give a shout out to all the wonderful teens my daughter hangs with. They hang in mixed groups at school and are very comfortable with the opposite sex. (Yay for co-ed public schooling). They are hard working, high achieving, supportive of each other, respectful in relationships, to their teachers and (mostly) to their parents.

 

You don't need charm school and dance lessons if your kids go to co-ed school and are taught manners at home.

 

PS - while I was writing this, my daughter just texted to tell me that she tried a new technique for maths and got 100% on an exam.

 

That's fantastic! You are right, of course. But not all parents will push a kid out of their comfort zone and encourage them to spread their wings. I know with my friend, she lets him isolate because she seems terrified of bullying, although I am not sure why because she was never bullied. Just overprotective and it's damaged him. Plus the father has real social anxiety so he's getting a double dose.

[xxoo]

First of all, parents get so much criticism. It's a hard job. We do our best.

 

Second of all, not all parents can teach socialization and dating because they can't do it well themselves. True story.

 

Third, there are plenty of kids (mine) who still enjoying the normal stages of co-ed socializing and dating, just as we did in the good ole' days. It's no surprise since their parents are social and spend times outdoors and with real people rather than in front of the tv or video games. We are social, so they are. Parents can't change who they are to make different kids. That includes the antisocial parents, who always were and always will be.

 

Since my teen is a social butterfly, I meet a lot of similar teens. Kids who play sports, spend Saturday afternoons with a pack of mixed gender friends, and date much to the terror of their parents who aren't too old to remember all the hazards of teen dating

[mrldii]

Yes, and those are all good group activities, too, that force you to perform. Gym has also gone by the wayside many places, because there's a lot of shy or unsocial people who don't want to attend gym. But they need to. I realize there could be some bullying, but it's better to learn to deal with that when young than at your first job, isn't it?

 

I always chuckle when I see the NFL "Play 60" spots ('make sure every kid goes outside and plays for 60 minutes a day').

 

My parents would have been lucky to see me for 60 minutes inside with them, each day!

 

As soon as we awoke, we were out the door. We staggered in to grab some lunch and then back out we went! The rule was we had to be home at 6 for dinner and then ~whooooosh~ we were outta there!

 

We had 10 minutes, after the street lights came on, to get our butts home, each night!

 

 

"60 minutes of [outdoor] play"?!? TRY to limit me to 60 minutes...I double-dog dare ya!!!

 

[basil67]

First of all, parents get so much criticism. It's a hard job. We do our best.

 

Second of all, not all parents can teach socialization and dating because they can't do it well themselves. True story.

 

Third, there are plenty of kids (mine) who still enjoying the normal stages of co-ed socializing and dating, just as we did in the good ole' days. It's no surprise since their parents are social and spend times outdoors and with real people rather than in front of the tv or video games. We are social, so they are. Parents can't change who they are to make different kids. That includes the antisocial parents, who always were and always will be.

 

Since my teen is a social butterfly, I meet a lot of similar teens. Kids who play sports, spend Saturday afternoons with a pack of mixed gender friends, and date much to the terror of their parents who aren't too old to remember all the hazards of teen dating

 

This ^^. I think those posters who are criticising all parents and young people really need to get the pole out of their rear end. Frankly, their judgement and blinkered view says more about them than it does about the teens.

 

I find it highly amusing that baby boomers and Gen X criticise young people...in just the same way that their parents criticised them. Remember how the Beatles and the Rolling Stones ...and then Punk would be the downfall of humanity? Bahaha

[mrldii]

This ^^. I think those posters who are criticising all parents and young people really need to get the pole out of their rear end. Frankly, their judgement and blinkered view says more about them than it does about the teens.

 

I find it highly amusing that baby boomers and Gen X criticise young people...in just the same way that their parents criticised them. Remember how the Beatles and the Rolling Stones ...and then Punk would be the downfall of humanity? Bahaha

 

 

I try reaaaaaaal hard not to be the female counter-part to the old man yelling, "Get off my lawn!"

 

When I hear people my age complaining about "kids' music", I remember my parents did the same thing even when it wasn't Rock-n-Roll.

 

Paul Anka's "She's Having My Baby"

 

Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get it On"

 

Billy Paul's "Me and Mrs. Jones"

 

 

SCANDALOUS!!!

[xxoo]

This ^^. I think those posters who are criticising all parents and young people really need to get the pole out of their rear end. Frankly, their judgement and blinkered view says more about them than it does about the teens.

 

I find it highly amusing that baby boomers and Gen X criticise young people...in just the same way that their parents criticised them. Remember how the Beatles and the Rolling Stones ...and then Punk would be the downfall of humanity? Bahaha

 

Remember Tipper Gore and the PMRC? God, how I hated her! How can this generation be worse than we were?!

 

In fact, the 90s (when I came of age) were the peak of a lot of bad behavior: crime, early age of sex, teen pregnancy. Thank goodness they aren't as bad as we were!

[preraph]

I always chuckle when I see the NFL "Play 60" spots ('make sure every kid goes outside and plays for 60 minutes a day').

 

My parents would have been lucky to see me for 60 minutes inside with them, each day!

 

As soon as we awoke, we were out the door. We staggered in to grab some lunch and then back out we went! The rule was we had to be home at 6 for dinner and then ~whooooosh~ we were outta there!

 

We had 10 minutes, after the street lights came on, to get our butts home, each night!

 

 

"60 minutes of [outdoor] play"?!? TRY to limit me to 60 minutes...I double-dog dare ya!!!

 

 

Boy, that's me, too. But I know I was extreme and that my mother was extreme in that she didn't worry until we were grown and then she drove us crazy. But why she didn't worry is she was one of 13 siblings raised a hundred miles from civilization. I grew up on an acreage with open land around and would be gone all day on my horse or dirt bike, and she never seemed to worry. I learned to be autonomous but being social didn't come from her. She was very much a homebody. And I was only social young and then got knocked back by bullying middle school and high school and then rebounded back to at least somewhat social college age and beyond. But I didn't really find my niche until my late 20s when I found my crowd.

[preraph]

This ^^. I think those posters who are criticising all parents and young people really need to get the pole out of their rear end. Frankly, their judgement and blinkered view says more about them than it does about the teens.

 

I find it highly amusing that baby boomers and Gen X criticise young people...in just the same way that their parents criticised them. Remember how the Beatles and the Rolling Stones ...and then Punk would be the downfall of humanity? Bahaha

 

Well, I'm afraid you missed the point if you think my original post falls into that category because I am not criticizing all parents and all young people. Just the ones who are failing to get their kids out of their comfort zones and prepare them for adulthood.

 

My parents liked music. And I made it my career, so....My dad, born in 1909, liked AC/DC. But yes, they were afraid of longhairs!

[basil67]

Well, I'm afraid you missed the point if you think my original post falls into that category because I am not criticizing all parents and all young people. Just the ones who are failing to get their kids out of their comfort zones and prepare them for adulthood.

 

My parents liked music. And I made it my career, so....My dad, born in 1909, liked AC/DC. But yes, they were afraid of longhairs!

 

No, I was only referring to a couple of posters who seem to think that all parents and their children have gone to hell in a handcart. Your post didn't come across like that at all.

[preraph]

Remember Tipper Gore and the PMRC? God, how I hated her! How can this generation be worse than we were?!

 

In fact, the 90s (when I came of age) were the peak of a lot of bad behavior: crime, early age of sex, teen pregnancy. Thank goodness they aren't as bad as we were!

 

I hate Tipper Gore! I was actually on a panel once discussing censorship in music. Unfortunately, my company had recently been bought by Disney, so they did censor some stuff. But I do have to say there were a couple of album covers I did think were too far. One was autopsies of dead people whose families would have still been alive. Not right. The other beef I had with censorship was the double standard, but being the only woman, I was alone in that. The labels would throw a hissy fit if anyone even suggested using a full frontal nude of a male, but put T&A on nearly ever cover. They were enraged that someone would DARE disrespect men that way! It used to make me just spit blood, that attitude that men were too good for that.

[preraph]

I try reaaaaaaal hard not to be the female counter-part to the old man yelling, "Get off my lawn!"

 

When I hear people my age complaining about "kids' music", I remember my parents did the same thing even when it wasn't Rock-n-Roll.

 

Paul Anka's "She's Having My Baby"

 

Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get it On"

 

Billy Paul's "Me and Mrs. Jones"

 

 

SCANDALOUS!!!

 

Elvis! The shaking hips drew a LOT of fire, more fire than any artist has ever drawn since with possibly the exception being MJ. But my mother LOVED him because he loved his mother. And my dad liked R&R.

[neowulf]

How would you define this treatment? Do women want men to treat them like men treat other men? Do they want men to treat them like other women treat them? Or is it something in between?

 

I agree with the sentiment behind this, I've begun to develop concerns about de-sexulization of the genders.

 

Let me try to explain.

 

I grew up seeing and treating women as equals. As people first.

 

This however lead to some very difficult conflicts between allowing myself to experience women *as* sexual partners, not just as friends.

 

I dated and bedded a lot of women who I admired and respected a lot, but in the end, didn't share a strong sexual connection with. They should have, in hind sight, probably remained as friends.

 

Experiencing the genders sexually is a part of the natural order of things. It's an important part our psychology. The failed experiment of the SNAG (Sensitive New Age Guy) stood as testimony to this.

 

Women don't want to date a woman. Women want to date MEN. Men, who bring their own unique views and properties to the pairing. Not Men who set out to try and emulate women.

 

I believe there's a middle road, that men can view and respect women as people, while also recognising and appreciating their sex and femininity. Finding a way to express masculinity in positive ways, without throwing out the concept entirely.

[JustGettingBy]

Also part of the problem, at least in my case, has been that culture has taught us that sexuality/romance/dating etc and don't mix with anyone under 18. My parents basically censored everything to do with the topic and actively discouraged me from dating. Seriously, I've learned more about dating in the past few months from this forum than from them.

[xxoo]

Also part of the problem, at least in my case, has been that culture has taught us that sexuality/romance/dating etc and don't mix with anyone under 18. My parents basically censored everything to do with the topic and actively discouraged me from dating. Seriously, I've learned more about dating in the past few months from this forum than from them.

 

That is a problem. Parents are under a lot of pressure to keep teens from getting too sexual too soon. It's hard to find the right balance, and there is a ton of criticism no matter what you do.

[mrldii]

That is a problem. Parents are under a lot of pressure to keep teens from getting too sexual too soon. It's hard to find the right balance, and there is a ton of criticism no matter what you do.

 

I found it, by *accident*.

 

One time when my (now 33-YO) son was about 14 or so, he was bragging about his *sexual* conquests. (Not really...he was simply talking a good game.)

 

I laughed and said, "Oh, your generation thinks y'all invented sex!"

 

He replied, "No...we just perfected it!"

 

I looked him dead in the eye and said, "Yanno...for you to even be here, talking about it, that means I had sex...your grandmother had sex...no, your great-grandma [she was 90+ at the time] had sex."

 

 

He swears to this day he could never even think about having sex 'til he was about 22...the mental image of his great-grandma having sex was just too much for him to bear (bare?)!