Epidemic Social Crisis

[preraph]

I don't know about everywhere, but around here, schools are really powerless to discipline and make kids do things. They get constant kickback every time a parent has to be called about something. No one's kid seems to ever be at fault or held accountable.

 

I have a friend/mother/teacher I love to death, but she has a social anxiety husband and now teenager, and it's always been if he says he doesn't want to, she doesn't make him. Never makes him work past his comfort zone, which is in room with games. He's a nice kid, loving. But he is afraid of everyone not in his house. He even told her not to have guests one year for holiday and she did it. Because that is a pet peeve of the socially anxious dad and so it causes him to act up. So I see how he got that way, but someone needs to make him get out of his comfort zone. I just know he'll still be living with her as long as she's alive if something radical doesn't change him. He's old enough to have been dating for a couple of years and she claims he has no interest, and yet back when he was about 12, I would see him looking under panties on mannequins at the department store. Haha. So he's got her convinced, I guess, and I bet he explodes one day in sexual frustration and angst, though maybe not as many hours as he's allowed to isolate in his bedroom.

Edited May 16, 2016 by preraph

[katiegrl]

I don't know about everywhere, but around here, schools are really powerless to discipline and make kids do things. They get constant kickback every time a parent has to be called about something. No one's kid seems to ever be at fault or held accountable.

 

Yup.

 

I am not a parent either but my sense is that parents feel so guilty these days, for not being around due to either both parents working, or being divorced, or single moms choosing to have kids sans husband, and having to work, sometimes 2-3 jobs to support, that they are afraid to or don't know how to discipline their kids, and choose instead to be *buddies* with them.

 

The kids are getting no guidance and have really bad or no role models.

So they are left on their own and turn to the internet, and become robots not learning or knowing a thing about how to interact in the real world.

 

When I was growing up, my mom and dad never allowed me to spend all my free time on the computer.... or even watching TV.

 

One Saturday I attempted to do so and my mom literally dragged me out of bed and told me to get up and get out otherwise I would turn into a zombie!

 

Yes she really did say that!

 

They encouraged all us kids to get out doing volunteer work, getting involved in group activities, etc.

 

I was very shy growing up, and this helped so much!

 

I started taking acting classes which totally brought me out of my shell!

 

Parents just don't seem to care that much these days unfortunately, they have become too self-involved.

 

Not all of course, but many .

Edited May 16, 2016 by katiegrl

[preraph]

^ It sure seems like that, but the truth is there are a lot of good parents out there who are getting their kids up and out and off the electronics as much as they can, but those aren't the ones you hear about, I guess. I really do think the social skills have just taken a bad hit, though, across the board.

 

Jeez, was just reading another thread here and thought the guy and girl had a big relationship the way he was talking about breaking up and he's never even met her and trying to get her to not date around. Holy cow.

[neowulf]

These poor people are floundering out here and then they're getting some terrible pickup artist advice on the internet that isn't helping. Let's get back to basics. Tell them the ABCs of dating and that a date is just a date, not a marriage proposal and that there's nothing to fear but fear itself.

 

^This. So much this.

 

I remember a conversation with a friend of mine, complaining about the quality of the men she'd been going out on dates with.

 

I pointed out to her; Where do you think these quality men come from? Do they just materialise out of thin air?

 

We are suppose to be RAISING boys up to be great men. Where are the great male role models to look up too? Where are the leaders, in our community to teach boys how to be great men?

 

A lot of children are growing up without these role models and being left to flounder on their own.

 

It's no surprise that a lot of them are becoming poorly socialised as a result.

[preraph]

^This. So much this.

 

I remember a conversation with a friend of mine, complaining about the quality of the men she'd been going out on dates with.

 

I pointed out to her; Where do you think these quality men come from? Do they just materialise out of thin air?

 

We are suppose to be RAISING boys up to be great men. Where are the great male role models to look up too? Where are the leaders, in our community to teach boys how to be great men?

 

A lot of children are growing up without these role models and being left to flounder on their own.

 

It's no surprise that a lot of them are becoming poorly socialised as a result.

 

Oh, yes, that is so true. Things are kind of scattered out and the big influence on young people is whatever they get on the internet pretty much. Nothing wrong with that, but it's kind of weak tea, and the main problem being no guide for what is true or false or good or bad advice (look who's talking). Whatever your issue is, you can go on the internet and find validation for it. And at a time when a strong central core is needed we have weakening schools with diminishing power and parents understandably too busy to do it all. Every generation has its new media that frightens the older generation, but it's never been this vast and all-pervasive before. It's like the lifeline, and no one knows where it's anchored.

[neowulf]

Whatever your issue is, you can go on the internet and find validation for it..

 

IMHO, this is a HUGE, HUUUUUGE problem.

 

Confirmation bias is running rampant.

 

No matter how out there your opinion is, or how warped your perception of the world, you can find others to reflect that opinion right back at you.

 

You only have to look at these online communities of PUA's. Spreading the same psychobabble, social engineering tripe around between each other. It's no wonder people get sucked in and warped.

 

It's all well and good to suggest that people should find their own answers, but it's easier than ever to get lost along the way and end up with some pretty messed up views.

 

Those views then go on to "poison the well", leaving women frustrated and bitter at their treatment, thus making them even *more* guarded for the genuine men who come along.

 

This talk sums up my fears nicely;

[BlueIris]

...a date is just a date, not a marriage proposal and that there's nothing to fear but fear itself.

 

OMG, it's sooooo this.

 

Since it's NOT a marriage proposal, it really doesn't matter if the other person is "right for you"; doesn't matter if they're not Ms./Mr. Perfect; doesn't matter if they're not of your religion / socio-economic background / intellectual equal / etc.

 

It's just a date, for God's sake.

 

You might learn something about yourself, on the date. You might learn a new activity, on the date. You might meet someone else, while out-and-about, on your date.

 

The possibilities are endless...but, first you just gotta go on that "It's Just a Date."

 

Worry about the wedding reception and who can't sit by whom on your second date.

 

This is so true. People these days seem to make things so complicated for themselves, in their own heads.

 

Just ask her out or go out if he asks you out. Take time to find out if you like each other and if you do, form a relationship. If you don’t both like each other, date someone else.

[Taramere]

You can't overcome them by texting or by reading some BS PUA site because if you aren't taught to be at ease with girls/boys when younger by exposure and making physical contact, you can't make the leap from scared virgin to skilled PUA! No girl will fall for that. Before you can get skills to attract the opposite sex, first you have to have basic social skills.

 

If anything, PUA culture seems likely to reduce social skills. The emphasis on using objectifying language about women isn't really geared to encouraging a terrified shy boy to chat to a girl or woman in a normal sort of manner. "Plates" and "HB8s" etc. Just imagine some nerdy young bloke who is absolutely terrified of the idea of speaking to women, being endlessly validated (by PUA sites) in his natural tendency to think of women as "things" rather than fellow human beings.

 

I think we've probably all encountered guys like that. I remember a classic one when I went on a last minute holiday on my own one time. It was abundantly clear that he was using me to practice chatting up women. I would go off for lunch, and he'd tag along insistently (I'm quite happy to eat lunch alone, and I'd much prefer to than to listen to complete drivel from somebody who has zero social skills and thinks I'm a kind face to practice with).

 

Out of nowhere, and after receiving very clear signs of disinterest from me, he blurted out "can I kiss you?". I said to him "No you can't. I only kiss men I feel a connection with." He was all "well haven't we formed a connection?" No, mate. I no more felt a connection with you than the various gadgets you play with feel a connection with you. You can't be that person who regards people as "things" and hope to form any sort of meaningful connection with them. (I didn't say that, btw).

 

So they take advice from sociopaths and narcissists - or wannabee sociopaths and narcissists - on how to hook up with women who don't mind being regarded as things so long as they're regarded as pretty, cool desirable and expensive things. And they get knocked back mercilessly for not being rich, good looking or cool enough. Spurned mercilessly, and to nobody's surprise, by that utilitarian "people are disposable" marketplace they're being told they must buy into and learn how to be smooth operators within.

[Haydn]

If anything, PUA culture seems likely to reduce social skills. The emphasis on using objectifying language about women isn't really geared to encouraging a terrified shy boy to chat to a girl or woman in a normal sort of manner. "Plates" and "HB8s" etc. Just imagine some nerdy young bloke who is absolutely terrified of the idea of speaking to women, being endlessly validated (by PUA sites) in his natural tendency to think of women as "things" rather than fellow human beings.

 

I think we've probably all encountered guys like that. I remember a classic one when I went on a last minute holiday on my own one time. It was abundantly clear that he was using me to practice chatting up women. I would go off for lunch, and he'd tag along insistently (I'm quite happy to eat lunch alone, and I'd much prefer to than to listen to complete drivel from somebody who has zero social skills and thinks I'm a kind face to practice with).

 

Out of nowhere, and after receiving very clear signs of disinterest from me, he blurted out "can I kiss you?". I said to him "No you can't. I only kiss men I feel a connection with." He was all "well haven't we formed a connection?" No, mate. I no more felt a connection with you than the various gadgets you play with feel a connection with you. You can't be that person who regards people as "things" and hope to form any sort of meaningful connection with them. (I didn't say that, btw).

 

So they take advice from sociopaths and narcissists - or wannabee sociopaths and narcissists - on how to hook up with women who don't mind being regarded as things so long as they're regarded as pretty, cool desirable and expensive things. And they get knocked back mercilessly for not being rich, good looking or cool enough. Spurned mercilessly, and to nobody's surprise, by that utilitarian "people are disposable" marketplace they're being told they must buy into and learn how to be smooth operators within.

 

I remember you.....

 

But i do worry about my girls. I try to balance the tech and the play. They are outdoors a lot.

 

But they can be glued to their pads. It`s a tricky balance.

[Els]

Where you lost me is on the dating advice. Men are going to do what works. All of those traditional dating tips an strategies? Don't work. My mother raised me well in the time I spent with her. She taught me how to talk to a woman, how to treat a woman, and how to take care of a woman. Compliment her, bring flowers on a date, and treat her like a princess. Unfortunately, all that advice is horrible these days. Compliment a woman and she doesn't want to hear it. Bring flowers and she thinks you're "thirsty." Treat her like a princess and she treats you like a fool. Ladies created PUA stuff, not any social issues on the part of men.

 

If ALL the women you attempt to treat nicely 'treat you like a fool', then maybe you might want to reevaluate your selection of women. I'd say the same to the women who claim that 'all men are pigs', etc.

[Haydn]

If ALL the women you attempt to treat nicely 'treat you like a fool', then maybe you might want to reevaluate your selection of women. I'd say the same to the women who claim that 'all men are pigs', etc.

 

 

Originally Posted by enigma32

Where you lost me is on the dating advice. Men are going to do what works. All of those traditional dating tips an strategies? Don't work. My mother raised me well in the time I spent with her. She taught me how to talk to a woman, how to treat a woman, and how to take care of a woman. Compliment her, bring flowers on a date, and treat her like a princess. Unfortunately, all that advice is horrible these days. Compliment a woman and she doesn't want to hear it. Bring flowers and she thinks you're "thirsty." Treat her like a princess and she treats you like a fool. Ladies created PUA stuff, not any social issues on the part of men.

 

 

Sounds like `Tudor` times. It`s not that difficult.

[Taramere]

My mother raised me well in the time I spent with her. She taught me how to talk to a woman, how to treat a woman, and how to take care of a woman. Compliment her, bring flowers on a date, and treat her like a princess. Unfortunately, all that advice is horrible these days. Compliment a woman and she doesn't want to hear it. Bring flowers and she thinks you're "thirsty." Treat her like a princess and she treats you like a fool. Ladies created PUA stuff, not any social issues on the part of men.

 

The "bring her flowers" and the "neg her" advice comes from the same place essentially. Both types of advice involve employing strategies in an attempt to get a woman to feel some sort of emotional connection. In that sense, both are as mechanical as eachother - though the former (bringing flowers) is a prettier and more flattering method.

 

A few months ago, I went on some professional training course. There was a segment about networking. We were told to pick a random stranger and start a conversation with them. I was talking to this guy who expressed an interest in rugby. Although I'm not all that interested in rugby as a game, I have some social stories that involve rugby. So I relayed one of my rugby focused anecdotes, and that sparked one of his etc....so we had this "rugby focused but from a social perspective rather than two experts on rugby having a technical conversation" chat.

 

The course leader listened in and congratulated us on our "techniques". I think he wanted to feel that we'd been listening carefully to all his advice on networking and "building rapport" techniques....whereas in reality we were just having a normal social conversation. I had another conversation with somebody who was clearly taking the rapport building tips in earnest. It felt phony and stilted.

 

Women want flowers from men they've already fallen in love with - not random characters who are trying to get into their pants. I think one of the problems is that a man feel totally in love with a woman just because he likes the way she looks. So maybe in those cases, the flowers are a gift from the heart. Whereas from the woman's perspective, it would most likely be a case of "who are you and why are you engaging in romantic gestures towards a woman you barely know?" The kind of polite, chivalrous gestures well socialised strangers show to eachother would generally be enough. "Lover" type romantic gestures are almost certainly going to feel a bit phony to the woman who regards you as a stranger.

 

What women want is to be regarded as/treated as human beings....but when we express those sentiments, all too often we're accused of being ball busting feminists who have only ourselves to blame for the fact that the pendulum has swinged from treating us like goddesses on pedestals to regarding us as unpaid prostitutes.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Taramere

[thefooloftheyear]

^This. So much this.

 

 

We are suppose to be RAISING boys up to be great men. Where are the great male role models to look up too? Where are the leaders, in our community to teach boys how to be great men?

A lot of children are growing up without these role models and being left to flounder on their own.

 

It's no surprise that a lot of them are becoming poorly socialised as a result.

 

 

They have been castrated by society, certain elements in the school systems, and a push by some women to de-masculinize men into some forms of people that have no identity and are kind of "ambiguous"....

 

Now part of it is the mans fault for allowing that to happen...Some don't buy it and don't participate.....and most of those are doing just fine..

 

But you wont hear about those guys on a site like this....they wont bother...

 

TFY

[elaine567]

 

Women want flowers from men they've already fallen in love with - not random characters who are trying to get into their pants. I think one of the problems is that a man feel totally in love with a woman just because he likes the way she looks. So maybe in those cases, the flowers are a gift from the heart. Whereas from the woman's perspective, it would most likely be a case of "who are you and why are you engaging in romantic gestures towards a woman you barely know?" The kind of polite, chivalrous gestures well socialised strangers show to eachother would generally be enough. "Lover" type romantic gestures are almost certainly going to feel a bit phony to the woman who regards you as a stranger.

I think that is because society has changed.

The man bringing flowers, in days gone by, identified himself as a suitor, as opposed to just another man. He had a romantic interest in the woman and showed that by giving her flowers.

 

WE in 2016, see (and are encouraged to see by advertising) flowers as a gift to those we love, not merely as an identifier of romantic interest. Anyone attempting to bypass the necessary steps towards "love" by being too premature with flowers is therefore seen as phony and insincere.

"How can you possibly love me, we don't even know each other."

 

(Nowadays some show "romantic interest" by sending pics of their penises direct to her iphone... )

[Got it]

Enigma, nowhere did I say treat her like a princess. I know full well that is not what most women really want or need. The things I described such as dance lessons were because that is often the first m/f contact any kids have. If they never have it, they are afraid of it. The charm school or etiquette is basic social skills you need just to eat out in public or go to a dinner party your boss is throwing. Everyone needs these basic social courtesies. I'm not saying to buy the girl gifts or kiss her butt or do all the giving or do all her bidding. Most girls wouldn't even respect that. But they do want someone who doesn't flinch if they touch their arm and who is at ease enough to just talk to them like people and not just straight up afraid of them.

 

Look, I know this partly because I too had a fearful phase. I grew up without any brothers and most of my boy encounters in my neighborhood were mean boys, so I was very nervous around boys at dating age and really didn't date until later. But at least at my school, they had us dancing with partners young and got us used to that sort of thing so that at least i could do that much. Of course, I grew out of it and it was sort of a normal phase for a young teen.

 

But now people are not connecting very much face to face and are growing into their 30s and beyond still retaining these adolescent fears. You can't overcome them by texting or by reading some BS PUA site because if you aren't taught to be at ease with girls/boys when younger by exposure and making physical contact, you can't make the leap from scared virgin to skilled PUA! No girl will fall for that. Before you can get skills to attract the opposite sex, first you have to have basic social skills.

 

It's really obvious to a woman when a man is as jumpy and nervous or paralyzed with fear -- and it will not work.

 

Instead of such antiquated/traditional gender teachings, I would suggest having children play coed sports, hobbies, teaching diversity, teaching that we do not alienate others, etc. so they can learn how to be friends with all individuals and not see things based on gender, skin color, nationality, etc.

 

Also getting kids to have more face to face connect as the virtual world has allowed all ages to not have to see the person they are talking to and makes meaner behavior easier to do since they are a disembodied "voice" and not a real person.

[Shining One]

What women want is to be regarded as/treated as human beings...

How would you define this treatment? Do women want men to treat them like men treat other men? Do they want men to treat them like other women treat them? Or is it something in between?

[Taramere]

How would you define this treatment? Do women want men to treat them like men treat other men? Do they want men to treat them like other women treat them? Or is it something in between?

 

How do I define treating somebody as a human being? Well...recognising that they are a thinking, sentient individual, rather than as the officious guardian of a vagina who must be dealt with via various techniques and manipulations. Treating a woman as you would hope she would treat you - presumably with a reasonable amount of respect, empathy and consideration - is a good start.

[Revolver]

My dad got married 40 years ago in a third world country. There's nothing he could really say to me about dating in 2016. It's a different time now. It would be like coach pop asking John wooden on how to stop the Warriors 3 point shooting

 

In fact it can easily be argued that parents giving outdated advice is the reason we are in This situation

Edited May 16, 2016 by Revolver

[hasaquestion]

Living in the USA, I think it's at least partly a Western thing.

 

Whenever I visit the Mediterranean country in which my parents were born, I'm always struck by the difference in social competence. People are such better listeners there. They talk to everyone and they listen with genuine curiosity.

 

Here, you talk to people because you want/need something from them.

 

Americans don't even think about it but they do it. A lot of 'nice' people have been conditioned to be bad listeners in my opinion, and don't even realize it. They think about what they're going to say while the other person is talking.

[Haydn]

How do I define treating somebody as a human being? Well...recognising that they are a thinking, sentient individual, rather than as the officious guardian of a vagina who must be dealt with via various techniques and manipulations. Treating a woman as you would hope she would treat you - presumably with a reasonable amount of respect, empathy and consideration - is a good start.

 

This works.

[Shining One]

How do I define treating somebody as a human being? Well...recognising that they are a thinking, sentient individual, rather than as the officious guardian of a vagina who must be dealt with via various techniques and manipulations. Treating a woman as you would hope she would treat you - presumably with a reasonable amount of respect, empathy and consideration - is a good start.

That's a fair answer. Unfortunately, it's been my observation that many women still want special treatment relative to men. The original post includes an example.

[Jose1]

I do agree with you though about social crisis. For me I only get shy and quiet around only one person. Also rejections not the worst thing take that rejection in stride better yourself and get back up so when you do met the next person you don't miss out. treat all women with respect and be chivalrous. I've learned now the only way to overcome it is by breaking from your comfort zone and grow and develop mental toughness.

[katiegrl]

They have been castrated by society, certain elements in the school systems, and a push by some women to de-masculinize men into some forms of people that have no identity and are kind of "ambiguous"....

 

Now part of it is the mans fault for allowing that to happen...Some don't buy it and don't participate.....and most of those are doing just fine..

 

But you wont hear about those guys on a site like this....they wont bother...

 

TFY

 

I agree. The strong ones don't need a site like this, or they're here giving advice!

 

This site is chock full of men who IMO have been "de-masculinized" so to speak. Partly due to being raised solely by their moms with no male role model to emulate and learn from.

 

So many threads from men who simply DO NOT know how to stand up for themselves. Allow their gfs, or just women, to stomp all over them, controlling them, dominating them, etc etc. This has been discussed on this board before.

 

Men are literally too scared to speak up and stand up for themselves, for fear of pissing the woman off... or having her accuse him of being a misogynist or some other ridiculous reason.

 

It's really really sad.

[preraph]

IMHO, this is a HUGE, HUUUUUGE problem.

 

Confirmation bias is running rampant.

 

No matter how out there your opinion is, or how warped your perception of the world, you can find others to reflect that opinion right back at you.

 

You only have to look at these online communities of PUA's. Spreading the same psychobabble, social engineering tripe around between each other. It's no wonder people get sucked in and warped.

 

It's all well and good to suggest that people should find their own answers, but it's easier than ever to get lost along the way and end up with some pretty messed up views.

 

Those views then go on to "poison the well", leaving women frustrated and bitter at their treatment, thus making them even *more* guarded for the genuine men who come along.

 

This talk sums up my fears nicely;

 

I got halfway through that. So scary! And true.

[preraph]

Originally Posted by enigma32

Where you lost me is on the dating advice. Men are going to do what works. All of those traditional dating tips an strategies? Don't work. My mother raised me well in the time I spent with her. She taught me how to talk to a woman, how to treat a woman, and how to take care of a woman. Compliment her, bring flowers on a date, and treat her like a princess. Unfortunately, all that advice is horrible these days. Compliment a woman and she doesn't want to hear it. Bring flowers and she thinks you're "thirsty." Treat her like a princess and she treats you like a fool. Ladies created PUA stuff, not any social issues on the part of men.

 

 

Sounds like `Tudor` times. It`s not that difficult.

 

Yes, you can definitely go overboard. I don't believe in putting women on a pedestal, and from what I hear about today, it's only a few snotty divas who think men ought to put them on a pedestal, and the goal seems to be to marry for money. It's great when a guy thinks of you and knows you well enough to know what you like. Like I have a decades-old bf I'm now just friends with who will still occasionally send me music. But it does look hungry to come in flooding a woman or a man with gifts, and yes it does make you look hungry. There's a time for that, I suppose, if someone has the $$ to blow, but that's not when you're just trying to get started dating her. Plenty of women worry that if the first date is TOO fancy, the man feels that they think they just bought themselves a night of sex, and that makes a whole lot of women I've known uncomfortable. The time for sweet nothings is when you're pretty much already mutually in love and feeling it.