Is this an Emotional Affair or am I just jealous?

[66Charger]

What a embarrassment to the Gender.

[Bufo]

Due to having 3 mornings per week when I literally can do nothing but read and write I googled the game. Yes it has a private chat function if the player is registered with Wikia. At least think that's how it is spelled.

 

You'll probably want to investigate further. The tech types here can give you advice on key loggers. If you really want to know what she's doing on line.

[elaine567]

Due to having 3 mornings per week when I literally can do nothing but read and write I googled the game. Yes it has a private chat function if the player is registered with Wikia. At least think that's how it is spelled.

 

You'll probably want to investigate further. The tech types here can give you advice on key loggers. If you really want to know what she's doing on line.

Does it really matter?

She is deep in internet land, unless she removes herself from that addiction, then the OP has no hope.

He cannot spend his life policing her internet life and I doubt she or anyone really would want to give up their internet presence totally, so I see little joy ahead for either of them, unless they can reconnect more deeply in real life.

She has obviously set up a little community online that includes the OM, but excludes her husband.

However if she gives up on that community totally, then what does she have to replace that with? Is the bond here between husband and wife enough?

[NTV]

Does it really matter?

She is deep in internet land, unless she removes herself from that addiction, then the OP has no hope.

He cannot spend his life policing her internet life and I doubt she or anyone really would want to give up their internet presence totally, so I see little joy ahead for either of them, unless they can reconnect more deeply in real life.

She has obviously set up a little community online that includes the OM, but excludes her husband.

However if she gives up on that community totally, then what does she have to replace that with? Is the bond here between husband and wife enough?

 

Not only that, she's probably going to beat with an extension cord next. The woman is physically abusive--and thinks being a woman makes that okay. I hope this guy starts carrying a recorder around with him for 'mental notes' and leaves it one when she's around. Because at this rate she'll beat him, then call the police on HIM and say it was self defense. Her word against him and he's in jail. His career stalls. She files for divorce, but the job lets him go. Then he's stuck paying an alimony payment for a job he can no longer get. Goes back to jail for failure to pay....

 

 

Yeah. Not a safe place for him to be.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Her reaction was to tell me that we'd "talk about it later" and then go to the OM (as well as some of her female friends) and post video messages/chat with them via FB messenger about how unfair all of this was (one of our earlier agreements was that she would not share pictures of herself with the OM anymore--video seemed to be a given, obviously). ......

 

There were a few efforts with her trying to press the boundaries (e.g., Can I use my phone until 10 instead 9? Can I still play my games on it after 9? Can I send a message to everyone letting them know that I'm ok?).

 

Serious question: Are these "online" friends? I assume that these "friends" are from the game and/or originated online. If so, does she have any "real" friends from the "real" world? I find it problematic for her primary relationships not to be grounded in reality. She seems to be more comfortable living in Fanatsyland with Fantasyland friends. To me, that seems like something that should be delved into deeper.

 

 

To her credit, she relatively calmly re-read the email I had sent her (not entirely focusing JUST on the "restrictions" aspect) and explained why she didn't understand why any of this was happening "now" and that if "I" wasn't so insecure, controlling, and manipulative that "none of this would be happening".

 

Textbook response of a cheater/manipulator. It is almost cliche on this forum.

 

I don't see the point in pulling the plug on the marriage at this point. She is keeping the lines of communication open with you regarding your marriage. Keep those lines open but at the same time keep your eyes and ears wide open for impropriety behaviors/communications with OM. Too often, the WS tells the BS what they want to hear in order to maintain peace at home.

[farsidejunky]

You will never be rid of this situation until you insist on no contact, or leave your wife.

 

And whoever said wife-child nailed it. She is being defiant towards you like a teenager to a parent. This is a bad dynamic.

 

When will you actually stand by your principles?

[Abe Froman]

Again, I appreciate all of the thoughts that everyone has conveyed to this point...I now have some available time to respond as I am really starting to feel "differently" about a lot of things (unfortunately, that hasn't produced really any greater "clarity" for me--just different feelings).

 

First, my wife really doesn't play any "online games" anymore and hasn't since she stopped playing World of Warcraft back in 2011 (the MMO where two previous EAs took place). She deleted her WoW account and we have played another MMO together off-and-on since then (but it's probably been about a year or so since we played at all and nothing "threatening" ever really came from that experience). The Dragon Age series aren't multiplayer games (at least she never did anything multiplayer as she played it on PC). Her involvement with others was derived exclusively from her interest in the romantic aspects of the characters in the game where she found "fandoms" and "groups" on Facebook, DeviantArt, Twitter, and Tumblr.

 

Initially, she was really into reading a lot of fan fiction about "shipped" (relationship-formed stories) about some of the various characters in the game. That turned into a bit of a sexual exploration and a bit more delving into discussing with others on the forums about where "good material" was. Eventually that led to an exploration of pornography, groups like "Smutlandia", and several other areas. She became very enamored with the voice actor for one of the male characters who portrayed one of the frequent love interests in the game (and she and her groupies--calling themselves "Cullenites" after the name of the character in the game) would frequently follow the voice actor's tweets/Periscope streams, etc.

 

I was admittedly annoyed with all of the happenings as this took place last Spring/Summer, but I largely dealt with it. While I wasn't thrilled that she was so infatuated with another man (the voice actor) and she changed her phone backgrounds to pictures of him (including shirtless ones), the character from the game, etc., I chalked a lot of it up to a relatively harmless fantasy. By a weird twist of fate, he was on Periscope one night last June and chose "her" of all the people watching to give a live phone call to (since she had posted in the chat that she had had a long day due to our basement flooding). So, as a result, he called and talked to her live while all of her friends acted like she was "so lucky".

 

Again, it was annoying...but it was like a celebrity crush.

 

Shortly thereafter (or while this was taking place--I'm not 100% clear on the dates), she was having her sexting conversations with the teenager on YikYak. Again, she found him through one of the "Smut" groups on FB--so there was seemingly a natural progression from one thing to another and I may have been somewhat complicit in the fact that I was appreciating the uptick in her libido for the first time in 2-3 years.

 

Regardless, she acknowledges what happened in that situation was entirely wrong and we worked through her breaking all contact and removing herself from the groups where he was found. The new situation is different, however, in that she insists that it is "just friends" (despite all the evidence I've noted: 1. Her desire to sleep with him, if given permission--which she has since retracted in one of our MC sessions; 2. Her ongoing conversations with him and her strident defense against breaking contact with him as me "being controlling" and "not letting her have friends")

 

One of the earlier comments, (from Betrayed&Stayed), inquired about the nature of her friendships. Indeed, these are ALL online friends (every EA, minus the one local radio DJ back before we were married that had the Myspace cybersex-esque conversation with her) have been people she's never met in person and she's encountered online. Even her female friends are almost all entirely online.

 

On this last point, I do believe I must take some ownership of the problem as I will attest to being quite insecure about her making friends with people locally (especially people I don't know). I've always had a difficult time trusting her and I've always been insecure about her doing things without me being around. As I said, I note that my own flaws in this situation have likely contributed to some of the issues, as well. I'm highly introverted and she's far more of a social creature than I am. I guess I could say that I honestly feel quite fulfilled by "what I have" in terms of having my needs met socially (essentially with my family unit and being able to call and talk to my Mom...I also enjoy visiting and talking with her parents from time-to-time every few months).

 

Part of me has seen the "upcoming move" as a means by which to press the "reset button" and maybe allow for both of us to make friends (preferably through work and in a way where we can potentially do things as "couples"). I also am hopeful that she might secure a bit more of a long-term/stable employment situation for herself (which has been very challenging due to the effects of her mental health/self-discipline issues). At the same time, I'm also cognizant that the "reset button" might also not just be an opportunity to reset with us together, but potentially for us to start over for ourselves separately.

 

Again, I keep seeing each day go by and thinking to myself that I "survived another one". I'm not sure that much is changing. Yesterday, she spent the day almost entirely on her phone after we woke up (even when she was in the bathroom--which is a now common occurrence). I reminded her when 9 p.m. came around to put the phone down and she largely abided by the agreement (though she did take a video of something funny we were watching on TV...she wanted to immediately post it to FB, but I told her that she could do it tomorrow). We didn't get to bed till after 3:30 a.m. this morning (when she needed to be at work by 8...which never really happens...she's never on time--for anything, really--but that's something I think I've just "learned to accept).

 

She sighed a lot last night and seemed very "unhappy" this morning as if there was an impending sense of dread/doom. I have so far refused to login to her FB, etc. to see if there is some "reason" why she might be feeling that way as I'm honestly sick of playing detective.

 

I'm just so unsure... we ARE communicating and I did something probably stupid and had an intimate experience with her yesterday which she said she appreciated since it "made her feel wanted". She isn't thrilled that I suggested we listen to "Not Just Friends" together on Audiobook/Audible (I also now have the physical copy to complete quizzes, etc.).

 

Ultimately, I don't know if there's any real sense of "shame" or not. I'm not saying I want her to feel bad (I'm not malicious), but I kinda' wish there was some feeling of shame from her. She obviously feels bad about physically striking me, breaking the door, and breaking the computer monitor. She also, I believe, genuinely feels bad that all of this is upsetting me. Yet, at the same time, I was recently reminded of something she told me to me last summer following her experiences sexting the teenage guy--I asked her if she could promise that this would never happen again and her response was:

 

"I won't do this with him ever again, but I can't promise that I won't flirt/like/etc. other guys in the future..." (I can't remember the exact words, so quotes are a bad choice, but she distinctly said something to that effect that she could not promise that she would break contact with "other men" in the future).

 

Now...I've explained my jealous tendencies...my insecurities... my wife's views on our relationship (from a variety of perspectives...I'm going to include a copy of our FB convo from Wednesday evening in a subsequent post for anyone to give me some feedback on how I handled it--bearing in mind that she came home, we fought, but there seemed to be some slight understanding that I'm trying to rebuild trust through her adherence to the boundaries we've established).

 

As always, thoughts and comments are welcome. I know some of you are sick of me, but I'm honestly doing the best I can to save my marriage and really sincerely appreciate your support.

[Abe Froman]

WED 6:26PM

ME: Thanks for hanging up on me.

I would highly advise you seek some individual counseling and I will help you set that up. But I'm sick of being betrayed.

I still Love you and care about you.

 

HER: Right

ME: I do.

 

HER: Bull****

ME: You're welcome to come home...you don't have to sleep somewhere else, but I'll be damned if you treat me like this.

Instead of being happy about potentially fixing your marriage...no...you get all pissy and start blame-shifting on me..break all sorts of boundaries (btw...it wasn't just "[female friend]" that you were talking with past 9 p.m. last night)

You lie... you lie constantly... you show no Love to me

If you gave a DAMN about this marriage, you would be apologizing non-stop and doing WHATEVER IT TOOK to try to save it.

You'd be making the offers to fix things... not having me try to do everything.

Seriously... I am now...for the first time beginning to question whether you actually do love me.

 

HER: When when you treat me like this how else do you expect me to act

ME: I'm entitled to be hurt...

 

HER: So am i

ME: Yes... wayward spouses are.... I understand it's not easy for you

I get that.

I value you and I respect that this isn't easy for you

 

HER: Right

ME: Look, you can cop an attitude with me...I'm just trying to be civil right now

When I say that I know it's not easy for you, I'm not lying.

But what I'm going through is betrayal...

Sure, being caught doesn't feel good... but having it done TO you hurts a hell of a lot worse.

I've given in FAR too much and now you really need to know that you need to make some major changes in the way things are if you want to save this marriage.

You need to make those changes yourself...take ownership... and prove to me

 

HER: I have nothing to prove to you... you already see me as one way and I am tired of trying to ****ing appease you.

ME: Seriously, I encourage you to talk it through with [MC] (or another professional if you'd rather) or your parents... and read some infidelity blogs (loveshack, talkaboutmarriage, survivinginfidelity)... do whatever it takes to figure this out

I'm tired of doing your homework for you...I've been trying to be helpful, but you act like none of this is a problem...guess what...it is.

 

HER: for you

i'm tired of caring right now

ME: And instead of me bearing the brunt of all the problems this has caused...maybe it's about to become something YOU feel, too.

 

HER: i'm sick of your ****ing bickering and belligerent behavior towards me in every aspect now.

ME: Then leave me.

If that's what you want.

 

HER: dont you think you've been FORCING ME AWAY YOURSELF

you are driving me crazy

handcuffing me

treating me like a ****ing child

ME: Umm... stop acting like one.

 

HER: how am i acting like a child

ME: And I'm not handcuffing you...you should have stopped this stuff a LONG time ago.

 

HER: you're the one who calls me up and tells me to go sleep somewhere else

ME: That was immature, I admit... I was mad.

That's why I'm talking to you now on here.

 

HER: you are always mad

ME: Because this makes me mad.

I'm sorry I'm not happy when you lie to me.

 

HER: because you LET IT

you let it ****ing consume you

ME: Fine... fair enough...I am allowing myself to get mad.

Next time you get mad, I'll make sure I blame you, too

 

HER: i'm tired of bending over backwards.. trying to make you happy

because obviously i don't anymore

ME: You haven't even come close to doing enough.

I like spending time with you.

I like your company

I like you as a person

 

HER: just because I don't do EXACTLY what you want me to

ME: I'm a betrayed spouse who wants to see his wayward wife show some sign of remorse

I'm well within my rights

 

HER: I can't ****ing talk to anyone anymore according to you

ME: Instead, you blame-shift and cake-eat

 

HER: i'm a ****ing fat ass i guess them right?!

ME: Right now, I think you should be more worried about saving your marriage than who you can talk to

 

HER: then*

ME: No... that's not what I meant... "cake eat= having your cake and eating it, too..."

 

HER: I am tired of trying to make you happy.. because I feel like it's impossible at this point

ME: You're very physically attractive

 

HER: you keep talking about saving our marriage... how bout you stop treating me like a prisoner..

ME: You are a very smart, witty, fun person, [Wife’s name]

 

HER: but apparently not enough for you

ME: But you need to mature in this area.

 

HER: not anymore

ME: Look, I'm still here talking to you

I'm still going through these sessions

I'm offering you advice that might help you take some initative and try to save this relationship

You need to do your part

 

HER: the thing is ... IT DOESN'T NEED SAVING... i shouldn't need saving... there's NOTHING wrong with it... only your perceptions

ME: Instead of being disrespectful and worrying about everyone else... you should be doing whatever it takes to make sure I don't leave.

If you really value our marriage

I'm telling you straight up...you break boundaries, that's it.

 

HER: you keep saying if I VALUE it... you keep threatening me

you KNOW i do

I ALWAYS HAVE

ME: You Love me...yes. You care about me...yes

You respect me?...Not so much... You respect our marriage...not so much.

 

HER: i'm sorry that having friends is disrespectful to our marriage

ME: Having friends isn't necessarily disrespectful (provided they're people who we both accept as friends in our marriage).

When you have friends with people who I'm not "ok" with (or if I would do the same to you)..that's disrespectful.

Do you see the difference?

 

HER: You are seeing it as a difference

ME: What?

 

HER: You're not OK with it because you are an insanely insecure and jealous individual

ME: There's that blame-shifting again...

 

HER: BECAUSE IT'S TRUE

I'm not blame shifting.. I'm calling the kettle black

ME: Am I a worrywart? Sure. Am I genuinely concerned about our marriage? Absolutely.

Why?

Because of what you're doing.

 

HER: Which you shouldn't be!!!!

UGGGGGG....

ME: Because you don't show remorse...

because you don't care.

because you continue doing something that you know hurts me

 

HER: because you have FORCED me into not caring

ME: I didn't force you into not caring...

 

HER: I have to turn myself off just so I don't break

ME: that's YOUR choice.

 

HER: or hurt myself or you

ME: You can always care.

 

HER: It's not that I DON'T care

ME: You just said that you don't care because I forced you into not caring.

Which I disagreed with, but you still said you don't care.

 

HER: I said i was TIRED of caring... not that I don't

ME: Ok...so you care, but you're sick of caring.

Correct?

Guess what...I'm not sick of caring about you.

I never will be sick of caring about you.

 

HER: DONT put words in my mouth

ME: Hate me...don't believe me... I do want what's best for you.

I'm being kind right onw.

*now

I'm telling you that I will always care about you

This came out today... I thought it might be an interesting read for you... "The idea of you giving up on her is preposterous and her telling you that's what you're doing is even moreso. Isn't she the one giving up on you? Why is anything on her phone more important than you are? "

That was a response by someone on the forum regarding what I had posted

There's a LOT of truth in that to me...

You may not see it, but you've really downgraded me in your life.

You've devalued me

And I'm worth more than that.

Even if you don't feel I am.

I'm a good person.

I'm worth being treated right.

You know... I honestly was thinking you would take the email I sent you today as a chance to really make some positive strides in our relationship and you would do so cheerfully...

Your reaction has told me quite a bit.

 

HER: No... I was pissed about it and thought it was absolutely ****ing ridiculous

ME: Fair enough. As I said yesterday... you're allowed to be you and believe what you believe. The same goes for me.

If you won't take the initiative to work on beginning to solve some problems, that's your choice.

 

HER: I ****ING HAVE

you are so full of arrogant ****

ME: I DO encourage you to do some reading on infidelity, though.... seriously, maybe read some forums on loveshack.org or talkaboutmarriage

 

HER: You are ruining my life

why are you doing this

i have tried to be open and honest with you

ME: I'm sorry that's how you see all this. I'm personally doing my best to save our marriage

No you haven't!

 

HER: you think it NEEDS to be saved

ME: You lie and go behind my back.

That's not open and honest!

 

HER: BECAUSE YOU SET UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS

ME: Unrealistic...to YOU.

Perhaps...

Maybe they ARE realistic.

I hope you would think that they are

If not, then you and I ARE truly different.

 

HER: you are so conceited

ME: Again...blame-shifting and name-calling isn't helping...

 

HER: you think absolutely nothing is wrong with you

ME: I'm not doing anything conceited here

No...I have plenty of personal flaws

 

HER: shut up yes you are... you are acting all high and mighty

ME: None of which are involved in what you're doing about our marriage

 

HER: a ****ton

ME: [Wife’s Name]...listen to me, please.

 

HER: i've tried to be supportive to you

ME: I am not better than you are.

You are not better than I am.

 

HER: i've tried to do what you have asked

ME: Not really...

 

HER: yes i have

and if you say i havne't done anything, you are an *******

ME: Umm... you haven't come close to adhering to any of the boundaries we set up

 

HER: YES I ****ING HAVE

ME: You've violated every single one of the boundaries so far

You violated most of them in the last 24 hours alone.

And they're not that hard to adhere to.

Seriously... you have gotten away with WAY too much in your life and I've enabled you...

For that, I apologize.

It might be time to see how you fare without me supporting you so much.

 

HER: I don't hate you... but I hate what you're doing

ME: Then we'll see if I'm really of "value" or not.

 

HER: I have nothing without you

so I might as well go live on the street

ME: You have plenty without me...

 

HER: no i don

dont and you ****ing know it

ME: After all, you've got the Internet... and [OM’s name]...and [Female Friend]...and [Female Friend]... your parents...

I'm sure you could have an army of guys if you wanted...

Trust me...that part scares me

You DO have a lot without me

I'm not trying to keep you down...I'm trying to lift US up.

 

HER: but i don't WANT an army of guys... I just want my husband to stop thinking I'm trying to leave him

ME: It's not that...

It USED to be that

This is different.

Do I feel scared of a life without you? HORRIBLY.

I don't want that.

 

HER: then why are you DOING this?!@!?

ME: Because this isn't what people who love each other do to each other... this isn't what a married couple does to one another.

I've asked you to respect boundaries in our relationship and you won't/can't (I don't know which anymore)

 

HER: quit threatening me

ME: I'm not threatening you...

I'm being honest.

I've told you what I want... I want you to work to fix this... go to the sites I've mentioned... talk with counselor...etc.

 

HER: I HAVE

ME: This isn't a threat...this is real...I'm one foot out the door.

And I really wish you'd do what it would take to pull me back in.

 

HER: just ****ing go then.. because that's OBVIOUSLY what you want

you are just LOOKING for a reason

ME: No...I'm looking for a reason to stay together...

You're just not giving me any rope

 

HER: because you're tying a noose around my neck

ME: You seriously need to read some of these forums/postings...maybe talk to some people other wayward spouses who have worked on their own issues and have reconciled...

 

HER: I don't care about them

ME: You're in the fog.

 

HER: I don't care about their situation

ME: Truly...it's called "the fog"

 

HER: I care about ours

ME: and you're blinded by it.

 

HER: SHUT UP

I am NOT a case study to be analysed

stop treating me like a ****ing disease

that you need to look up and do research on

ME: Hun.... you're you... yes. But it's a poor choice to not read what others have gone through to learn from their experiences.

There's a lot of strength you might be able to find.

I'm not your enemy.

I'm your friend.

I'm saying this to HELP you...not hurt you.

 

HER: I don't feel like you're my friend anymore

You haven't been on my side in a long time

ME: That's fine... I do hope someday you'll come to realize that I really have been.

I'm your best friend... and you may not always like what I have to say

But that's what makes me your best friend

I won't just tell you always what you want to hear...but things you NEED to hear.

I hate hurting you

I hate you being upset with me

 

HER: THEN ****ING STOP IT

ME: But I Love you too much to not stand up for what's right.

 

HER: why do you not care about me? what I feel

it's all about YOU

how i've hurt YOU

when I've done NOTHING to you

ME: I do care about you and how you feel...that's why I've encouraged you to read those forums and talk to [MC] on your own

I know it's not easy for you

I know this hurts you

And I'm sorry for that

 

HER: YOU are the only thing hurting me

ME: But you HAVE done SO much to me...

 

HER: and you seem to ****ing love it

ME: No... I hate hurting you.

You should know that.

 

HER: I don't believe you

ME: That's your choice.

 

HER: I think you love holding all this over my head, and threatening me

ME: No... I don't.

If you only knew how hard all of this is for me.

I'm scared to death

 

HER: you should be

you're doing this to yourself

ME: Stop blame-shifting, please.

 

HER: this would not be an issue

it SHOULDN'T be an issue

but you take a personal affront to it

me having friends besides you shouldn't be an issue

ME: Yes... to you disrespecting our marriage? Yes, I do take an affront to that

 

HER: o

I'm not disrespecting our marraige

ME: That's not an issue... as I said...friends I'm "ok" with are fine.

Friends I'm not "ok" with are not fine...

 

HER: but you don't consider [OM’s name] to be my friend

ME: There is a big difference.

 

HER: you're scared to death he's more

ME: In a way..but I'm also thankful it's not.

I'm appreciative of the fact he doesn't like you like him.

 

HER: then STOP harrassing me

ME: I'm not harrassing you.

 

HER: YES you are

you are making my life a living hell

ME: Look...it hurts, ok?

 

HER: I'm scared to come home anymore because you'll just get mad at me about something

ME: I understand it hurts both of us.

I'm scared to be in the same room as you because I know that damn phone will buzz and trigger me

So, I'm offering you the chance to make a choice

I'm offering you the chance to do what it takes to start the healing process... or do something else.

 

HER: why is it my choice

ME: Because my choice depends on your choice...

I'm giving you a chance.

 

HER: because YOU have a lot to do to even try to regain my trust or friendship

ME: I could make the decision for us... but I want to give you a chance.

That's fine...you can choose to be resentful of me...

 

HER: you are forcing me away.... the tighter you squeeze.. the more you are going to lose me

ME: If that's the choice you make... I'll live with it.

 

HER: YOU ARE FORCING ME TO FEEL LIKE THIS

ME: I'm not doing anything.

 

HER: I'm not going to roll over like a damned dog

YES YOU ARE

ME: That's your stubbornness coming out... your damn foolish pride...your ego... your unwillingness to give up on something for the betterment of our marriage.

 

HER: I am ****ing DONE adhering to your demands

ME: I really wish you wouldn't have made that choice.

But I will abide by it.

 

HER: I wish you wouldn't have made any demands

ME: Sorry... there are rules in relationships/marriages...

 

HER: just shut up

ME: If you don't want to play by them... you can take your ball and go home.

 

HER: shut your goddamned arrogant stuck up mouth

stop telling me this is ALL MY FAULT

ME: Fine...I'll shut up... just please consider what I've said... I've offered you a chance... I've offered you some options to start getting help (talkaboutmarriage, loveshack, survivinginfidelity)... there are plenty of books out there, too (Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, etc.).... You can schedule an appointment for yourself with [MC]...

 

HER: this isn't JUST me

ME: What isn't "JUST" you?

[Wife’s name]... I Love you...and I always will...whether we stay together or not.

 

HER: just my fault

ME: Please know that I will ALWAYS want what I believe is best for you.

I'm bawling as I type this...

 

HER: I am not the ONLY problem in this marriage

ME: But I can't help someone who won't help themselves.

 

HER: and the fact that you don't see that

is really pathetic

ME: I'm not the one in the fog right now.

I see things pretty clearly.

Unfortunately.

 

HER: you make me want to hate you... to stay away from you

ME: I'm not trying to do that...I'm sorry that's how you feel.

 

I just wish...that deep down... you were feeling guilty because you know what I'm saying is all true and right.

 

HER; I don't feel guilty because there is NOTHING to feel guilty about

this is all in your damned head

ME: No.. it's really not. You just don't see it.

 

HER: you don't either than

then

ME: And I'm sorry that you're crying...I know this isn't easy.

 

HER: but you apparently enjoy it

ME: Would you want to go to your Mom/Dad's tonight? I'd understand.

 

HER: you sick ****

ME: NO

I NEVER enjoy seeing you cry.

That's BS and you know it.

 

HER: you sound like you're taking great pleasure about all this

ME: No...I get NO pleasure out of fighting with the love of my life.

 

HER: trying to get me to grovel at your feet and kiss your ass

ME: That's not what I'm asking.

 

HER: yes it ****ing is

you want me to admit how WRONG I am

ME: No, it's not. I've requested that you simply consider taking a look at a few options/resources that are available to you

 

HER: and feel guilty

ME: Do I want you to show remorse? Yes.

Do I want you to beg and plead and grovel...no

 

HER: I'm not because i have NOTHING to be remorsefull about@

I .have.not.done.anything.wrong

ME: This goes deeper than the surface...

And yes...you have.

 

HER: no

i haven't

you think i have

ME: Infidelity, lying, cheating, betrayal...

 

HER: you think i'm horrible

ME: I think some of what you have done to me is horrible.

I don't think YOU are horrible.

 

HER: stop saying that

stop calling me a ****ing infidel... a cheat.. a liar

I'm so TIRED of being labled

ME: I just said that's what you've done... I did not specifically "call" you that, this time...

I'm sorry I've yelled those names at you in the past.

But it doesn't change the fact that you've done all of those things in our marriage.

 

HER: YOU JUST CALLED ME IT

i'm ****ing done

you are driving me INSANE

I'm this close to going and wrecking the car just so i don't have to see your judging face

ME: Fine... please just let me know when/where you will be staying tonight...one of us should probably stay with the house...the other can go elsewhere.

No...don't hurt yourself

I will leave and go see my Mom if it makes you feel better

 

HER: no

ME: It's her birthday, anyway

 

HER: it wouldn't

oh this is a ****ing fantastic birthday present

you are such an idiot

ME: Look...I'm offering... I know you've had a VERY long day (especially emotionally)

 

HER: because of YOU

ME: It might do us both some good to not have to fight with each other tonight

 

HER: you have ruined almost EVERY SINGLE DAY for me these past few weeks

ME: If you don't want to see me when you get home...I can make that happen

 

HER: TOO ****ING LATE

YOU STARTED THIS

ME: I'll just take [Our dog] with me and we'll go.

 

HER: YOU SELFISH PRICK

no

ME: I don't want to fight you...I just want you to get help.

I want you to get the help you need to help you do your part to save this marriage.

 

HER: Im not the only one who needs help

ME: I'm not saying you're "defective"... I'm just saying I'm not sure you know what you need to do to help save US

I know

And I'm getting help

I'm doing my homework

I'm working hard to save us

 

HER: the thing I need to save us is for you to stop being like this

ME: What I'm basically saying is I'm not sure you've taken the time to read/consider where you might need to make some changes to help the situation.

 

HER: otherwise I don't know how much more of this i can take from you

you are being emotionally abusive

ME: Likewise.

 

HER: NO IM NOT

ME: But I'm not turning my back on you

 

HER: I don't have a ****ing addiction

ME: Ok...I know you're being argumentative...but if you don't see how you've been hurtful to my emotions...seriously...wtf?

 

HER: stop treating me like this is something I need to seek treatment for

you think you haven't been

ME: I JUST said that you're not defective...

 

HER: ????

ME: I was saying you may not know what you're doing wrong or how to help fix this.

 

HER: then QUIT telling me i need to seek out help!

ME: Help like getting a power tool to solve a problem...

Not "help" like you have a broken leg.

 

HER: god just shut up

ME: It's like asking someone to repair something that's broken without any tools or instructions

You need both the tools and instructions

 

HER: you're being overly analytical

ME: Because you weren't getting what I meant earlier

 

HER: i'm just ****ing sick of you right now

ME: I know...

 

HER: i'm sick of what you've bencome

you have changed

ME: Yes... in one way.

 

HER: you are not the man i fell in love with

ME: Do you know what way I've changed?

 

HER: he wouldn't do this to me

treat me like this

hold **** over my head

blame me for all the problems

ME: I know you're saying this to hurt me...and it does.

 

HER: i'm trying to prove a damned point

ME: Here's the situation...

I've changed in pretty much one way.

I am still the man who loves you

 

HER: you think you're so flawless in this and that you're right about all this and you're NOT

ME: Who wants what's best for you

Who values you

Who loves your company

 

HER: Who doesn't want me to be happy

ME: Who loves talking to you (almost) all the time

No... I want you to be happy

 

HER: especially about something that ISN'T you!

ME: Here's the thing... I've enabled you

I've let you get away with a lot of stuff in our relationship

 

HER: STOP.... ANALYZING... ME

ME: I'm just putting a stop to ONE aspect.

I'm going to stop enabling you on this one.

 

HER: You are making me hate you so much right now

ME: Fine.

I know you're angry...

I also believe you still love me

And I believe that the fog will clear

And I'll be here for you when that happens.

 

HER: I hope yours does too

that you think doesn't exist

you say I'm blind.... wow... how stuck up are you

ME: Seriously... take some time and read some forums...even look up "infidelity fog" if you want.

I'm not blameless

I've been really ****ty to you

 

HER: I seriously want you to **** of

off

ME: I'm sorry for when I've acted poorly towards

you

 

HER: and stop telling me what to ****ing read

I don't HAVE to read ANYTHING

ME: Fine... if you need to find your own answers, you do that.

I was just trying to help

 

HER: I'm just ****ing done

I'

ME: Ok...

 

HER: I can't take this anymore

ME: Please address the short-term with me

What do you want to do tonight?

Do you want me to go?

 

HER: the people in the gym are prolly wondering wtf is wrong with me

ME: I'm sorry... this will be a night we won't forget... not for any good reasons...

God, I so wish we can find a way through this.... but it'll be resolved one way or another eventually...

Do you want me to leave... seriously...I'm willing to let you just come home and do your thing tonight if you need to relax, etc.

 

HER: no... i don't want you to go

I want you to be resonable

ME: No offense, hun... I've tried.

 

HER: offense taken

you haven't been reasonable at all

ME: I also think it might be reasonable to have some time apart

If all I'm doing is hurting you...

If that's ALL you think I'm doing.

 

HER: you have been controlling, overbearing, accusatory, and hurtful

not loving at all

ME: You can't tell me what's in my heart...

In my heart, I've been loving.

Because I DO love you

 

HER: no.... you can't tell me how I FEEL

ME: The others may be true...because they're about how you feel

 

HER: but you haven't been treating me right at all

ME: But you can't tell me I haven't been loving...because that's about my intention

 

HER: you have been treating me like ****... like a child.. like a sub-part human being

par*

ME: I have never devalued you... I've acknowledged that you may not be seeing things clearly and could use some assistance... but that's not being any less than a human

And yes.. there have been times when you've acted like a child...

I won't deny that.

But I also know you're better than that

And that we all act immature and stupid when we're mad (myself included)

I'm just trying to not "be" mad right now...

I "am" mad... but I don't need to "be" mad at you

 

HER: i feel sick

ME: I'm sorry.

I know... it would be so nice if we could just play word racer and not have to deal with any of this.

It would be so nice if we could talk about our past and all the great times

 

HER: I wish you could just get past it

ME: It would be great if we could sit and watch our marriage ceremony.

 

HER: i'm not doing anything to hurt you

ME: ...

 

HER: i'm not trying to

but you take everything so very wrong

ME: I believe you don't intend to hurt me.

I've never really questioned that

We've been over this a ZILLION times

But I'm not wrong for having a problem with what has taken place.

 

HER: I feel like i'm going to throw up

ME: You may not LIKE the fact I have a problem with it...but I'm not wrong for having a problem with it.

Seriously... I know this has been hard on you

 

HER: I honestly don't know how i'm supposed to drive

ME: Please just come home and enjoy your night/evening by yourself with [Our cat]

 

HER: please don't leave

please

i don't want you to go

ME: You obviously don't want me here either

Or you don't want to be here...one or the other

 

HER: well let me go here so i can ACTUALLY come home

ME: Ok.

HER: and i never said anything about not wanting you here

you're the one suggesting hotels and leaving

ME: I'm going to have a hard time being around you... just to let you know.

not that I don't care about you or Love you...

Just hard for me to see you right now because of the hurt I've caused you...and vice versa.

HER: fine

ME: Please be safe... no matter what you do.

Chat Conversation End

Seen Wed 7:58pm

Type a message...

[NTV]

Abe, man, you know what you're doing right now right?

 

 

You're trying to comprehend the scope of the betrayal and the extent of the situation. That's why all this keeps coming up. That's why all these details and past violations are important.

 

 

You are way past the point most men would leave. You've given her more grace and forgiveness and love than warrants this situation.

 

 

I applaud you, sir, for the distance you are willing to go to show her that you love her, that she is loved, and that this marriage can last.

 

 

What distance would she be willing to go to show you?

[Abe Froman]

Abe, you are a mess, brother.

 

You are so rational that you are seeing her side at the expense of your marriage.

 

Just answer a simple question, without writing a paragraph to explain the nuances...

 

Are you okay with her having an emotional affair?

 

Yes or no only, please.

 

No. And that's why I'm trying to work on this and am so appreciative of everyone's support on here.

[NTV]

ME: You've violated every single one of the boundaries so far

You violated most of them in the last 24 hours alone.

And they're not that hard to adhere to.

Seriously... you have gotten away with WAY too much in your life and I've enabled you...

For that, I apologize.

It might be time to see how you fare without me supporting you so much.

 

HER: I don't hate you... but I hate what you're doing

ME: Then we'll see if I'm really of "value" or not.

 

HER: I have nothing without you

so I might as well go live on the street

ME: You have plenty without me...

 

 

 

 

^^^^^^^

 

 

This is where the conversation shifts from you standing up for yourself to becoming a doormat.

 

 

Instead of her telling you how much she values you and wants the marriage, she went "poor me I'll live on the streets" and you bought it hook line and sinker. Damsel in distress.

 

 

She is not a victim of her own emotions. She uses them to manipulate you. I've told you this time and time again. Hooks in your skin. It'll hurt, but start pulling them out. One by one if you have to.

[Abe Froman]

Okay, so I did not feel confident about my last outburst on your behalf, AF, and decided to reread to get a handle on the history and compare your situation then to now. I revisited your first post and listened to Biz Markie for the first (and, I hope, last) time in my life. I reordered the events and statements from your posts.

 

First off, I want to say I understand now why you said you were so confused in your first post. You don't seem to trust your own code of ethics or observations. When you try to discuss it with your wife, all hell breaks loose because you have no clear, agreed upon interpersonal code of ethics, which marriage 'vows' normally would reference. Neither of you seems to have reconciled your own ethical systems, either individual or couple, with real-life norms.

 

Second, you AND your wife are both confused about the 'rules' and yet have a great need for rules. Your wife likes gaming, which is very much about rules. For example, she seems to feel totally justified in claiming the current 'friendship' is not in violation of your past agreements. Very technical, very impersonal. You even change your minds about how to interpret what you've actually agreed is and isn't okay.

 

Confused, you come to LS and list the behavior, which sounds like a very clear-cut case of past emotional infidelity:

Last summer:

...began to look up ...erotica related to the game

...delving more heavily into pornography

...wound up having highly sexual conversations with this young man

...shared pictures (full nudity, etc.)

 

You imply that she agreed to comply with your subsequent B]main request after last summer's episode:

[/b]

...break off contact with other men (outside of her part-time employment)

...come to bed at the same time ...(since most of the sexting had taken place with her downstairs after I had gone to bed).

 

Yet here’s

what she started doing recently:

...talking to a cosplayer... who plays the role of the character with whom she is admittedly highly infatuated (obsessed?).

... following him on Twitter, liking his pictures, etc.

...add him as a friend ... on Facebook messenger.

...flirts heavily with him

..[sends] in-shower pics (...no breasts...)

…admits that she

has a crush on him

,

 

You imply she agreed with this description ^^^ because she "adhered to the latter portion of our agreement" to break contact with other men, implying she was in agreement with the spirit of the request: respect for your discomfort with her online relationships but has not complied with her agreement to come to bed on time.

 

You say that you've "effectively forgiven/rug-swept (even obviously showing a lot of pain/discomfort) in the past..." and ask if that is "creating a tougher situation this time?" You "can see her side of the argument from this perspective, but [feel] that those other situations crossed a boundary that even she had to acknowledge they had gone too far, while this one hasn't reached that point (yet?).

 

You go to

MC

and follow her dictums because she's an authority figure (MMFT). You seem to need this outside authority to tell you what to do. Instead:

The best-case scenario I could put on this was that

MC

is trying to give you both work to do

so

that wifey isn't the only one on the hot seat.

 

Note the continued emphasis on values as rules. Your wife now claims "that this situation truly is 'just friends' and is unlike the other previous EAs that have happened--therefore, she doesn't understand why I’m so upset now."In your confusion you ask if it's just "An Issue of Timing?" and have somehow, somewhere overlaid a new set of criteria for betrayal - how "tame" the interactions are.

 

Here's my latest recommendation: Start over. Sign up for one of those weekend couples retreats where you re-examine your commitment and your love for each other, what it means and what your vows are and freaking start this marriage over with some real grown-up vows. And THEN, both of you try some IC for a while.

 

This was a fantastic and thoughtful response. I sincerely appreciate it. There are only a couple of corrections I would make for clarity:

 

1. My wife HAS come to bed with me each and every night since last summer--she has NOT (obviously) stayed away from contact with other men. I may have misstated those two aspects earlier.

 

2. The original "exploration of 'open marriages', etc." was from my wife's depression/anxiety counselor who agreed to meet with us last summer following the sexting episode. We now have a new MC whom we have been meeting for the past month relating predominately to the more recent issues with my wife's continued contact with her cosplay "friend" online. This individual is an MFT (our previous counselor was not).

 

Regardless, the time you took to parse and analyze our situation is sincerely awesome and appreciated. While we are horribly short on money right now (we're sticking with our existing counselor as she is the only one available on our current insurance and we left my wife's previous counselor for her depression/anxiety due to our inability to self-pay), if you (or others) believe a retreat would be a wise investment, it is something I would definitely consider. After all, I'm not sure it's possible to put a price on the peace of mind that a functional trusting marriage would mean to me right now.

[Abe Froman]

Abe, man, you know what you're doing right now right?

 

 

You're trying to comprehend the scope of the betrayal and the extent of the situation. That's why all this keeps coming up. That's why all these details and past violations are important.

 

 

You are way past the point most men would leave. You've given her more grace and forgiveness and love than warrants this situation.

 

 

I applaud you, sir, for the distance you are willing to go to show her that you love her, that she is loved, and that this marriage can last.

 

 

What distance would she be willing to go to show you?

 

NTV--I'm not sure...but she hasn't left me yet...

 

Personally, I'm a bit weird about commitment and marriage because I tend to aspire to a relationship much like what my mother/father had. My dad suffered a debilitating/paralyzing stroke in 2000 (he was wheelchair-bound but still had a decent degree of his mental faculties--despite some mental health issues that exacerbated over time). He lived in skilled nursing care for 12 years and my Mom and I auctioned our house to qualify for Medicaid (including giving up all of our pets at the time since the apartment we moved to didn't allow them). We went from a strong middle-class lifestyle to one of pretty significant poverty, but never did either of us waver.

 

We would visit my Dad almost daily, spent basically everything we had left and bought a wheelchair van, so that we could bring him to our apartment from time-to-time (and church, other events, etc.). My mother was only 51 when all of it started, but she showed me exactly the type of commitment I expect from my spouse and the type of love I want to show.

 

My wife got to know my father during the last 7 years of his life, so she knows how important he was to me and how strongly I value the fact that my mother stood by him during all that time when I've seen others fail in their commitments. I have always used this as the basis for my own expectation--that if something happened to either of us that the other would not waver and would do everything we could to stay together and support/advocate for the other. If my wife was in a tragic accident today, I can firmly state that I would not ever consider "looking elsewhere" to meet any "desires/needs". She has told me that she will never leave me, either. That's where a lot of the strength comes from for me.

[MrMeh]

I don't get what you're fighting for anymore. She'd doesn't feel like apologizing and she doesn't want to be around you.

 

Life is too short to worry about people who think you're controlling when you state that you don't want them to cheat. Think it's time to move on for the better.

[Abe Froman]

ME: You've violated every single one of the boundaries so far

You violated most of them in the last 24 hours alone.

And they're not that hard to adhere to.

Seriously... you have gotten away with WAY too much in your life and I've enabled you...

For that, I apologize.

It might be time to see how you fare without me supporting you so much.

 

HER: I don't hate you... but I hate what you're doing

ME: Then we'll see if I'm really of "value" or not.

 

HER: I have nothing without you

so I might as well go live on the street

ME: You have plenty without me...

 

 

 

 

^^^^^^^

 

 

This is where the conversation shifts from you standing up for yourself to becoming a doormat.

 

 

Instead of her telling you how much she values you and wants the marriage, she went "poor me I'll live on the streets" and you bought it hook line and sinker. Damsel in distress.

 

 

She is not a victim of her own emotions. She uses them to manipulate you. I've told you this time and time again. Hooks in your skin. It'll hurt, but start pulling them out. One by one if you have to.

 

 

I DO care what would happen to my wife without me. Honestly, she has basically fully entrusted me with handling the entirety of our finances since day one. She has never had to support herself and I'm honestly a bit scared of what WOULD happen to her without me. I recognize all of this as unhealthy and it's not like I'm trying to "keep her down" (I've offered MANY times to show her how to manage our bank accounts, pay our bills, etc.). I even have a little file on my desktop I've shown her that details how to handle everything financially/medically if something should happen to me (i.e., where all our accounts are, who to contact for life insurance, etc.).

 

She did play the, "If you leave, I'll hurt/kill myself" card on me the other night during the middle of our fight shortly after slapping me. When she's in that mental state and knowing her own medical history...I really don't know what to do in those types of situations...

[elaine567]

I DO care what would happen to my wife without me. Honestly, she has basically fully entrusted me with handling the entirety of our finances since day one. She has never had to support herself and I'm honestly a bit scared of what WOULD happen to her without me. I recognize all of this as unhealthy and it's not like I'm trying to "keep her down" (I've offered MANY times to show her how to manage our bank accounts, pay our bills, etc.). I even have a little file on my desktop I've shown her that details how to handle everything financially/medically if something should happen to me (i.e., where all our accounts are, who to contact for life insurance, etc.).

 

This is a woman who has successfully worked out how to use Photoshop, believe me she will cope with her finances.

She has just delegated that task to you.

[NTV]

I DO care what would happen to my wife without me. Honestly, she has basically fully entrusted me with handling the entirety of our finances since day one. She has never had to support herself and I'm honestly a bit scared of what WOULD happen to her without me. I recognize all of this as unhealthy and it's not like I'm trying to "keep her down" (I've offered MANY times to show her how to manage our bank accounts, pay our bills, etc.). I even have a little file on my desktop I've shown her that details how to handle everything financially/medically if something should happen to me (i.e., where all our accounts are, who to contact for life insurance, etc.).

 

She did play the, "If you leave, I'll hurt/kill myself" card on me the other night during the middle of our fight shortly after slapping me. When she's in that mental state and knowing her own medical history...I really don't know what to do in those types of situations...

It's okay to love her. But one of the things I told you early on in this conversation is a specific saying that I want you to take the heart:

 

My love didn't stop you from cheating and it won't stop me from divorcing you because of it.

 

when I said that saying what does that mean to you what do those words mean to you?

Do they show strength or cowardice?

[GunslingerRoland]

Your wife clearly keeps engaging in the same pattern over and over again with no plan to stop.

 

 

You either need to make a decision that she is allowed to flirt and send nude pictures and do whatever else she does with these online friends or you have to say that enough is enough and call it quits.

[CarrieT]

I would heartily suggest reading up on and implementing The 180.

 

She has all but given up and there is no way you can beg, cajole, or plead her into trying to fix things.

[brothers343]

You state in your post that you guys are in love.......my friend that is a false statement. This is a toxic marriege and it sounds like is going downhill fast. You both have done bad but she keeps doing it. She tells you that she has a crush in some dude that plays a part in a game. This woman has lost all respect for you and your probably never going to gain it back. Good luck.....you will need it.

[ChickiePops]

That conversation made me cringe. She has zero respect for you. You need to stop engaging in petty fights and childish rules and put it in the simplest terms possible.

 

Abe to Wife- Here's a list of what I consider cheating and why. You make a list of what you consider cheating and why. You decide what your boundaries are and I decide what mine are, but if they're not compatible we can't be together.

 

Non-negotiable..and you need to follow through on that.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I read enough of the chat to still say she is incredibly immature. It's all about her, and she shows no empathy for you.

 

She is playing the usual WS cards:

You enforcing consequences of not abiding by boundaries = "You're threatening/controlling me"

 

 

Here's where you are right now. You are trying to fix a problem. BUT, she doesn't even see that there IS a problem to be fixed.

 

Besides her being immature, what does her FOO look like in regards of marriage? Why does she think this is acceptable in a healthy marriage?

 

I don't know anyone that would place this much value on online friends. It's not like her best friends from the block. It would be like me saying I value my "friendships" with fellow Loveshack users more than my marriage or spouse. It's just weird.

[Bufo]

Abe

 

That was a very revealing text conversation. Keep it safely away such as a thumb drive you hide. The gist of the conversation is from her point of view: I've done nothing wrong and you have done everything wrong. She won't even admit that what she has done is an affair.

 

No remorse=no reconciliation. See for examples way too many posts here.

 

I posted this in another thread. Your one size fits all reply to her verbal assaults should be "I'm sorry you feel that way". Go through that conversation and insert those words in place of those you used. You'll see how they are one size fits all and will wear her down quickly.

 

I'd be concerned that this escalation, especially about you driving her away, is support for a fling with OM at the convention.

 

I suggest you get a free conference with a lawyer so you know what divorce involves in your locality. What happened to someone else in another state is irrelevant. Knowledge is power. Seeing an attorney will give you knowledge instead of fear of the unknown.

[aliveagain]

All I got out of that is "I will stay your wife as long as you let me have my boyfriend." I think she is fighting you hard because she knows your making changes that will take her fantasy life away. She can no longer be who she fantasizes to be and has to deal with reality. She will have to grow up if you leave her. One of you has to go, there is one too many in your relationship.

[turnera]

Good lord, Abe. She's entitled, she thinks you're dirt, YOU act like a doormat...what do you expect?

 

Tell her to get the hell out of your house.