Is this an Emotional Affair or am I just jealous?

[Abe Froman]

One of the most confusing aspects of all of this to me is the fact that the "current" EA is likely the most tame of those that have taken place previously in our relationship and my "over-reaction" (my wife's term) to it seems odd to her since she's done worse in the past (in some respects).

 

She claims that this situation truly is "just friends" and is unlike the other previous EAs that have happened--therefore, she doesn't understand why I'm so upset now. I can see her side of the argument from this perspective, but I suppose that my feeling is that those other situations crossed a boundary that even she had to acknowledge they had gone too far, while this one hasn't reached that point (yet?).

 

Ultimately, I'm not as afraid of "this" encounter as I am of the potential next one...or the one after that...or after that... It's that she shows seemingly no remorse this time (where she's shown remorse and broken contact with others previously). This time, it's all about me being "controlling" or not letting her "have friends".

 

Because I've effectively forgiven/rug-swept (even obviously showing a lot of pain/discomfort) in the past... is that creating a tougher situation this time? I don't want there to be a "next time", so I want to fix our issues NOW.

[NTV]

I'll be honest it might be. Got caught once and a hand slapped twice same thing. Why is the third time the straw that broke the camels back? But that point is irrelevant. It shows you that the things you guys did to try to resolve the problem the first two didn't work so you need a new formula.

 

So I think the biggest problem is she doesn't think she's replaceable to you. But cheating is grounds for divorce in all religion for a reason. (And death in more than a few.)

 

The pain is real but she doesn't seem to care. If she did she will give up her b day present to be with you on her own volition without anyone prompting her.

[NTV]

As far as the controlling friends piece of it let her know she's right. If she wants to be single then be single. Sending naked pics to dudes isn't a friendship. At all.

 

She's play acting dumb like this isn't common sense. Don't let her.

[elaine567]

 

She claims that this situation truly is "just friends" and is unlike the other previous EAs that have happened--therefore, she doesn't understand why I'm so upset now..

 

But it is the last straw that broke the camel's back, you, quite rightly couldn't tolerate it any longer.

She needs to understand that.

[Abe Froman]

As far as the controlling friends piece of it let her know she's right. If she wants to be single then be single. Sending naked pics to dudes isn't a friendship. At all.

 

She's play acting dumb like this isn't common sense. Don't let her.

 

That's not happened with the "current" guy...The nude pics/sexting/etc. was with the one that took place last summer.

 

Regardless, the proverbial **** hit the fan tonight and I will definitely need to follow up later when I have the opportunity to post a longer discussion... This was nasty.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Abe Froman

[merrmeade]

Here's what bothers me the most about this whole business - on your behalf, AF: You don't HAVE to see her side of the argument. You don't HAVE to agree to any truce whatsoever. She strayed; she pays from then and forever. She showed a lack of judgment, respect and more - she consciously, willfully, knowingly betrayed you. Emotionally or whatever. She was intimate in ways that she should be with only you and hid it from you. SHE has to prove her trustworthiness to you from then on out. You NEVER owed her or your freakin' MC anything from that point. Why are you dancing this dance???

 

(Well, by "pays" I don't mean recriminations - just in terms of proving she's trustworthy.)

[farsidejunky]

Abe, you are a mess, brother.

 

You are so rational that you are seeing her side at the expense of your marriage.

 

Just answer a simple question, without writing a paragraph to explain the nuances...

 

Are you okay with her having an emotional affair?

 

Yes or no only, please.

[aliveagain]

If it bothers you, makes you uncomfortable she should respect you enough to stop those actions that bother you. Saying that you are controlling is her way of continuing her cake eating. She wants your stability with the excitement(fantasy life) of other man. Just my opinion but with her history, you will never be enough for her, she will always need outside validation from other men, why? Your best predictor of your future together is to look at your history. You can't make her change, she needs to want to do that for you. I just don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

Here you are standing in front of her in full dimension and she continues to reach out for the fantasy world of internet, texting where people pretend to be who they are not. Whacked. If your not going with her to the convention I suggest you book the polygraph for her return.

[HurtHusband]

Mermeade: I like your comment and just being able to separate and not having to see her side or consider how she might feel / I think there's great freedom in that.

 

My wife told me to my face that she does not love me / and it's 'stressful' living with someone you don't love according to her. When asked why she doesn't love me she says 'I don't know' she's in an

EA with a married guy / and meanwhile I am paying all the bills and supporting the family.

 

I wonder how stressed she might feel when I leave and she has to get a job for the first time in years to

Finance her make up/clothes/nails/lifestyle..

 

 

What do these cheating spouses expect? That we should be totally fair and give them notice even though they have been totally unfair and disrespectful towards us.

[usa1ah]

I really don't see how you are still with her.

 

She said she would sleep with this guy if you would give her permission. This was her testing the waters. If she, knew like you said you would not go for it, why say anything at all.

 

She has also mentioned a more "open relationship" between the two of you. Hand in hand with, she wants to sleep with this one guy.

 

Do you actually think after all of this build up between the two of them that she will not cheat. There filling for each other is like the build up of Mt Saint Helens before it blew. The story will be it just happened but I love you, we just got carried away, it was just sex. They are texting every chance they can and she is deleting them. Time to look at this from the out side.

 

Your wife has fillings for another man and she will be with him at this convention. I guess he will get the date night with your wife while she is there. Just remember, they are just friends and you have allowed/given permission to them to keep talking with each other.

 

I believe your marriage as you want it is over. You have to decide if you want to continue to stay with a cheater, because she is cheating in this EA.

[merrmeade]

Mermeade: I like your comment and just being able to separate and not having to see her side or consider how she might feel / I think there's great freedom in that.

[Well, maybe it's freedom - and deserved - when the WS is as narcissistic as your wife, HH.]

 

I'm not sure how entrenched and practiced OP's spouse is but that's the problem. They both seem pretty naive and more comfortable with rulebooks provided by MC.

 

No, the problem I was reacting to was Abe's willingness to "share" the problem and, therefore, the solution with his wife. Shudder.

Edited May 19, 2016 by merrmeade

[NTV]

Sorry that last night didn't go well we are here if you need us.

[Mr. Lucky]

Ultimately, I'm not as afraid of "this" encounter as I am of the potential next one...or the one after that...or after that...

 

You're making some progress along the learning curve. Without consequences, no change in her behavior. Without boundaries, not much of a marriage.

 

One thing about these recent incidents, including the yet undescribed one. People fight to protect what's important to them so think about what your wife seems motivated to defend. It doesn't seem to be her relationship with you...

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

Okay, so I did not feel confident about my last outburst on your behalf, AF, and decided to reread to get a handle on the history and compare your situation then to now. I revisited your first post and listened to Biz Markie for the first (and, I hope, last) time in my life. I reordered the events and statements from your posts.

 

First off, I want to say I understand now why you said you were so confused in your first post. You don't seem to trust your own code of ethics or observations. When you try to discuss it with your wife, all hell breaks loose because you have no clear, agreed upon interpersonal code of ethics, which marriage 'vows' normally would reference. Neither of you seems to have reconciled your own ethical systems, either individual or couple, with real-life norms.

 

Second, you AND your wife are both confused about the 'rules' and yet have a great need for rules. Your wife likes gaming, which is very much about rules. For example, she seems to feel totally justified in claiming the current 'friendship' is not in violation of your past agreements. Very technical, very impersonal. You even change your minds about how to interpret what you've actually agreed is and isn't okay.

 

Confused, you come to LS and list the behavior, which sounds like a very clear-cut case of past emotional infidelity:

Last summer:

...began to look up ...erotica related to the game

...delving more heavily into pornography

...wound up having highly sexual conversations with this young man

...shared pictures (full nudity, etc.)

 

You imply that she agreed to comply with your subsequent B]main request after last summer's episode:

[/b]

...break off contact with other men (outside of her part-time employment)

...come to bed at the same time ...(since most of the sexting had taken place with her downstairs after I had gone to bed).

 

Yet here’s

what she started doing recently:

...talking to a cosplayer... who plays the role of the character with whom she is admittedly highly infatuated (obsessed?).

... following him on Twitter, liking his pictures, etc.

...add him as a friend ... on Facebook messenger.

...flirts heavily with him

..[sends] in-shower pics (...no breasts...)

…admits that she

has a crush on him

,

 

You imply she agreed with this description ^^^ because she "adhered to the latter portion of our agreement" to break contact with other men, implying she was in agreement with the spirit of the request: respect for your discomfort with her online relationships but has not complied with her agreement to come to bed on time.

 

You say that you've "effectively forgiven/rug-swept (even obviously showing a lot of pain/discomfort) in the past..." and ask if that is "creating a tougher situation this time?" You "can see her side of the argument from this perspective, but [feel] that those other situations crossed a boundary that even she had to acknowledge they had gone too far, while this one hasn't reached that point (yet?).

 

You go to

MC

and follow her dictums because she's an authority figure (MMFT). You seem to need this outside authority to tell you what to do. Instead:

...I was generally questioned about

...my demanding/controlling attitude and

...my resistance to "open relationships".

We did perform some values assessments

...aligned generally on the issues of "most" importance,

...slightly differed as we moved down the list of values slightly.

The best-case scenario I could put on this was that

MC

is trying to give you both work to do

so

that wifey isn't the only one on the hot seat.

 

Note the continued emphasis on values as rules. Your wife now claims "that this situation truly is 'just friends' and is unlike the other previous EAs that have happened--therefore, she doesn't understand why I’m so upset now."In your confusion you ask if it's just "An Issue of Timing?" and have somehow, somewhere overlaid a new set of criteria for betrayal - how "tame" the interactions are.

The "current" EA is likely the most tame of those that have taken place previously in our relationship and my "over-reaction" (my wife's term) to it seems odd to her since she's done worse in the past (in some respects).

 

Here's my latest recommendation: Start over. Sign up for one of those weekend couples retreats where you re-examine your commitment and your love for each other, what it means and what your vows are and freaking start this marriage over with some real grown-up vows. And THEN, both of you try some IC for a while.

Edited May 19, 2016 by merrmeade

[NTV]

Dang Merrmeade! If that isn't an intensive and extraordinarily deep analysis of the situation, I don't know what is!

 

 

I can find no fault in your analysis and think that it is a very accurate and comprehensive summation of Abe's posts so far.

 

 

I would disagree with your conclusion to seek a marriage retreat. Not because it wouldn't possibly do good for his marriage, but because I don't see that his wife is showing the level of commitment needed to make this marriage valuable enough for him to want to save.

 

 

The fact that she is still speaking with another man that he has expressed problems with, that she claims she doesn't understand that there are non-physical affairs, that she recently blamed him for the destruction of the marriage, and that she overreacted and kicked him in the genitals AND then threw trash at him.... they all point to a level of disrespect that would indicate she no longer loved him romantically.

 

 

I find that her unrestricted self-focus is preventative of that changing. There is no real recourse for that at a marriage retreat which will only teach her how to play the part of loving wife better rather than opening herself up to love him. Which is the nice way of saying she only cares about herself and is just using him.

 

 

I think the only thing that will open her eyes at this point is facing the real risk of losing him....even then there's only a 30% shot because the lack of children would make the divorce process go by quicker. To be honest, I think he also doesn't realize that his value on the relationship market has likely increased considerably since he began dating her. Which is the nice way of saying he can do a whole lot better and has very little reason to stay.

[merrmeade]

Yeah, you're probably right. One thing it took me forever to learn is how to identify double-speak.

 

I also think some - probably many - WSs will go as long as the BS lets them pretend to talk the talk, walk the walk.

 

It's hard to admit that maybe your spouse just isn't into you any more.

[NTV]

 

It's hard to admit that maybe your spouse just isn't into you any more.

 

Hell yeah it is. Painful as anything too.

[merrmeade]

But (((AF))) it's heart-breaking. I'm just really so sorry. I think NTV and the others are right: You should get out and start working on a new life quickly.

 

You can't fix this. She's a lost cause that's not looking to be found. Stop the second chances and lowering your standards, hoping and looking for signs that she might change. Even the idea that she could change and 'win you back' mustn't interest you. If she even contemplated it, it should be a life-changing effort that you wouldn't notice unless and until she's near sainthood.

 

Raise your standards and never lower them to this level again. Once you get yourself together again, don't look back. Godspeed.

[NTV]

But (((AF))) it's heart-breaking. I'm just really so sorry. I think NTV and the others are right: You should get out and start working on a new life quickly.

 

You can't fix this. She's a lost cause that's not looking to be found. Stop the second chances and lowering your standards, hoping and looking for signs that she might change. Even the idea that she could change and 'win you back' mustn't interest you. If she even contemplated it, it should be a life-changing effort that you wouldn't notice unless and until she's near sainthood.

 

Raise your standards and never lower them to this level again. Once you get yourself together again, don't look back. Godspeed.

 

Dangit, you can't change your position now! I know that my charm and ungodly good looks have that effect on people, but now I feel obligated to push the marriage retreat idea!

 

 

Abe, if you aren't ready to let go, then the marriage retreat isn't a bad idea. Don't approach it directly, maybe leave it up on the home computer on 'accident' (along with another tab on the definition of 'narcissist') and see if she broaches the subject. If she does, ask if she will be paying for it, as that's a good gauge of how strongly she's willing to put forth effort.

[Abe Froman]

Thanks to all who have responded since last night...there have been some great reads and I want to give the time to respond appropriately to each of them.

 

With that said, my time will be limited today, so I'll likely talk tomorrow and give an update on how things have proceeded. Last night represented both one of the toughest evenings of my life as well as some degree of hope at its conclusion.

 

Thank you again.

[Abe Froman]

I had a few moments here to respond and was curious as to LS guidelines (even "unspoken" guidelines) about posting snippets from a conversation (names redacted, of course) had via online messaging. If this is frowned upon, I completely understand, but I almost would like to have some feedback on how I handled the situation last night and whether I'm on the "right path" or not.

 

Without getting into all of the details from yesterday, basically what transpired was my IC session (which I discussed) and my sharing of the "new rules" with my wife via email. She was extremely unhappy/pissed when she read them (even though I honestly deemed them to be a "good faith effort" and acknowledged that I would go through some of the challenges with her--I also implored her to see the entire situation as an "opportunity" for her to demonstrate love and help rebuild our relationship).

 

Her reaction was to tell me that we'd "talk about it later" and then go to the OM (as well as some of her female friends) and post video messages/chat with them via FB messenger about how unfair all of this was (one of our earlier agreements was that she would not share pictures of herself with the OM anymore--video seemed to be a given, obviously).

 

I saved a bunch of her videos/conversation and emailed the documents to myself for reference...though they hurt. A lot of the focus in her discussions with the OM was on how she felt that this was unfair, but she was so sorry that she was putting him through this. I got pissed, called her and told her that she might want to think about finding a different place to sleep for the night and she hung up on me.

 

Yes, this all took place while she was at work (she ended her shift at 5 p.m., but often stays later to handle paperwork, etc. and talks on her phone with her friends/OM). I felt bad because I know how much it sucks to have someone's workday interfered with, but I also was quite upset.

 

I hopped on FB, myself, and began messaging her (which is something we NEVER really do...despite the fact we originally met online over 10 years ago). I obviously have a lot of material that I can share from that back-and-forth conversation (which is where I wanted some feedback), but suffice it to say that we didn't exactly see eye-to-eye. I volunteered to "not be here" and go stay with my mother about 2 hours away if she thought she might need some distance for the night. She somewhat begged (repeatedly saying "please don't leave...please") and I stayed here.

 

When she got home last night, it was very unpleasant...she had obviously been crying the entire way home and I had shed quite a few tears throughout the day, too. It quickly turned into a "Why are you doing this to me?" from her and an emotional breakdown (which I understand). I stayed almost eerily stoic throughout the entire argument/discussion/etc. She got mad at me and slapped me (knocking my glasses across the room)...she kicked our bedroom door and broke a pretty good chunk of it out of one of the panels...I repeatedly offered to give her space and leave, but reassured her that I do care about her and am doing all of this because I Love her and want to save our marriage.

 

Eventually...after I don't know how many hours of back-and-forth with her crying, screaming, yelling, and repeatedly blaming me for "ruining our marriage", I finally got us to both sit down on the bed and told her that I was going to listen fully to everything that she had to say. To her credit, she relatively calmly re-read the email I had sent her (not entirely focusing JUST on the "restrictions" aspect) and explained why she didn't understand why any of this was happening "now" and that if "I" wasn't so insecure, controlling, and manipulative that "none of this would be happening".

 

I told her that I understood her position and finally stopped badgering her about going on forums for some support for herself and/or reading any books, etc. (She got VERY mad when I suggested LS, SI, or TAM or any other resource saying that it's all "brainwashing", etc.). Then I told her that I agreed with her that the restrictions we were setting up were, indeed, "petty".

 

What happened next seemed to be some divine epiphany, however...

 

I began calmly explaining the fact that while these restrictions do seem petty, if I can't trust her to handle them and follow through on them...how am I supposed to ever trust her with much bigger issues. Somehow..someway, this seemed to make an immediate impact with her as she finished my sentence as I was speaking and immediately took my hand and said "I understand.". She spent the rest of the evening stating that she just wished I would have "said it like that sooner".

 

There were a few efforts with her trying to press the boundaries (e.g., Can I use my phone until 10 instead 9? Can I still play my games on it after 9? Can I send a message to everyone letting them know that I'm ok?). I allowed the last one, but sat beside her as she texted everyone (around 11 p.m.). She then started going through her notifications and I asked for the phone...she said, "I thought you said I could play my Dragon game?"...I said, "No, I didn't". She gave me the phone, I took it downstairs and plugged it in for her.

 

We got out our Kindle Fire and downloaded her Dragonvale game and she walked me through some of the stuff on it (it's pretty kiddish and I don't mind if she plays it as a time waster or as a way to wind down--there's no real interaction with anyone else like an MMO). I took an interest and we hugged/kissed/fell asleep together with our phones safely in other rooms of the house.

 

Today, we woke up and I told her that I would do my best to stop badgering her about her phone use before 9 p.m. as long as she respected the other rules we'd established (no flirting with OM, no sharing pics of herself, etc.). I realize that so many places say "NC means NC", but I'm honestly trying to do my best to help her adhere to our current agreement(s). The goal, in my opinion, is to start to rebuild trust for us and self-discipline for her. Small victories are better than no victories, am I correct?

 

Anyway... again, I'm curious as to anyone's thoughts on sharing some of the convo I had with her (or any of her comments to others--names redacted) or if that's just uncool/unaccepted around here.

 

Thank you!

[usa1ah]

You have no victory, she is still talking to her affair partner.

[merrmeade]

You'll get some thoughtful answers, I'm sure, Abe. I do see that you've progressed nicely in your ability to explain to your wife-child the important things. For now, I leave you in capable hands and exchange your frankly bizarre world for my one-year-old grandson's of diapers and peek-a-boo. Only dragons there are stuffed.

[NTV]

Your wife slapped you and if a man had hit his wife he would be in jail. Next time call the police.

[Bufo]

I don't play online games so I am largely ignorant of them. But I do know one thing. Many of these games have untraceable chat lines of which some are private chats between two gamers. Since the game was downloaded log on and explore the site thoroughly. Some WS's go underground with the A this way.

 

If there is a chat feature or worse a private one on one chat feature you had better be very cynical about her attempts to fix the marriage.

 

Maybe some posters here know about that particular game.