Narcissistic Abuse

[turnera]

Yeah, don't get me started on my efforts to try to get her to go outside her comfort zone and look for friends in different places.

[truthtripper]

Yeah, don't get me started on my efforts to try to get her to go outside her comfort zone and look for friends in different places.

She won't look for friends "in different places" until she can understand why she gets herself into difficult relationships/interactions. Developing this self-awareness can take a long time, years, decades. It's a gradual process.

[SpiralOut]

 

I have also experienced similar, where when I stand up for myself, people think it's so hilarious, laugh at and mock me. More emotionally balanced people would take the hint and stop bullying.

 

Yes. The people who laugh and mock are doing so because your reaction tells them they got under your skin and that's what they wanted to do. For whatever reason, it makes them feel good about themselves to hurt or upset someone. They don't care (or realize) how bad it makes them look to behave that way in front of others.

 

 

I am now learning to stay calm, no matter how angry I am. Emotional reaction fuels them. In fact, I've noticed that sometimes staying calm makes them look stupid. Depending on their level of awareness, they might pick up on that and actually FEEL stupid for what they just said. Sometimes I find it super hard to keep my emotions under control but that takes practice I guess.

[SpiralOut]

 

So I now think that we accept poor treatment when it's a situation where that person (or group of people) have over history withdrawn or withheld love/affection/respect from you. It's like we NEED that from that person/group and we put ourselves on a...subordinate level to them out of fear of not getting that love etc. Even if it makes no sense or is ridiculous.

 

Yes. That's what happened with me. It happened at so early an age that it became a habit. And the subconscious message that goes along with that is "I don't matter as much as other people."

 

 

I think the only way to break that habit is to realize that we do matter just as much as anyone else. Other people might tell us so all the time, and we might understand it intellectually, but until we believe it deep down, we will continue to put up with BS from other people.

[turnera]

She won't look for friends "in different places" until she can understand why she gets herself into difficult relationships/interactions. Developing this self-awareness can take a long time, years, decades. It's a gradual process.

She's getting a PhD in psychology; she's been going to therapy since she was 14. I've listened to her analyses on the same for 10 years. I'm pretty sure she knows.

[NewLeaf512]

Throughout my adult life I had always find myself in the same relationships and scenarios over and ove like Groundhog Day. If someone was a normal person I was scared of them and pushed them away. Now that I have been in years of therapy I understand patterns and why I am attracted to them and why people who want to chew on my soul for a snack see me and immediately gravitate to me, and it all ends in disaster.

 

Has this happened to anyone else? After whatever bomb like activity ends the relationship/ friendship whatever, all most all have come back years (like 10) saying I was the only one who loved the, understood them etc., a and how they made a terrible mistake.

[truthtripper]

She's getting a PhD in psychology; she's been going to therapy since she was 14. I've listened to her analyses on the same for 10 years. I'm pretty sure she knows.

I've done two university degrees and have had therapy for 20 years. My studies have helped with understanding my pain, but have done nothing to alleviate it.

[truthtripper]

Throughout my adult life I had always find myself in the same relationships and scenarios over and ove like Groundhog Day. If someone was a normal person I was scared of them and pushed them away. Now that I have been in years of therapy I understand patterns and why I am attracted to them and why people who want to chew on my soul for a snack see me and immediately gravitate to me, and it all ends in disaster.

 

Has this happened to anyone else? After whatever bomb like activity ends the relationship/ friendship whatever, all most all have come back years (like 10) saying I was the only one who loved the, understood them etc., a and how they made a terrible mistake.

Yes, lots of people have chewed on my soul, so to speak. But none of them have had the self-awareness or humility to acknowledge their abusive treatment of me-but that's probably because I attracted it in the first place through transference.

Edited October 31, 2015 by truthtripper

[NewLeaf512]

Yes, lots of people have chewed on my soul, so to speak. But none of them have had the self-awareness or humility to acknowledge their abusive treatment of me-but that's probably because I attracted it in the first place through transference.

 

I think it is a slippery slope to blame yourself. People don't HAVE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE of people who are vulnerable.

[SpiralOut]

Throughout my adult life I had always find myself in the same relationships and scenarios over and ove like Groundhog Day. If someone was a normal person I was scared of them and pushed them away. Now that I have been in years of therapy I understand patterns and why I am attracted to them and why people who want to chew on my soul for a snack see me and immediately gravitate to me, and it all ends in disaster.

 

Has this happened to anyone else? After whatever bomb like activity ends the relationship/ friendship whatever, all most all have come back years (like 10) saying I was the only one who loved the, understood them etc., a and how they made a terrible mistake.

 

 

Plenty of people have chewed on me for a snack. None of them ever came back to say they made a mistake.

 

 

It has been a long time since anyone tried to turn me into their narcissistic supply. I have however had all sorts of people scapegoat me and smear me. I'm not sure if that's something else completely, or just a different side of the same coin, like is that what those people do INSTEAD when they can't get you to be their friend.

Edited October 31, 2015 by SpiralOut

[HurtinPDX]

To me, the most insidious type of narcissism is that kind that is wrapped in helplessness or victimhood.

 

At some point in life they learned that being a victim, being ill, being hurt, being depressed got them out of obligations, got them attention, got the focus directed away from their flaws or bad choices. They have a unique ability to gaslight you into believing YOU are the narcissist because you do not read their mind, anticipate their requests, and manage their emotional well-being. The passive aggressiveness manipulates you into feeling guilt for having needs or wanting to be a separate human being. You hurts become invalid, even to you, because the price for talking about any of them or expressing any of them is just too high - you end up comforting THEM and apologizing to THEM after they have twisted all your words impossibly.

 

Their own irresponsibility is always someone else's fault, and their own selfishness is always because they were mistreated. If they DO have a chronic condition, as another poster mentioned, it becomes a tool for keeping you in your place or keeping you from leaving.

 

I want to say THANK YOU. You just described my ex to a T. He is always the victim. He was horribly abusive to me and my kids, completely demoralized and gaslit me, and has since made it all my fault. The crazy-making is mind bending. He has been unemployed for years, has turned down job offers, is righteous and selfish and self-centered. And yet I was the one who was made to feel selfish and horrible...despite the fact I am a loving, generous mother who has dedicated her life to helping others. When we first met I was on cloud nine. He put me on a pedestal. Then the devaluation started and I became an emotional wreck. I am still battling feelings that I was the selfish one because I couldn't help him!

 

I am trying so hard to heal. It is so crazy making that he is still out there, pretending to be the victim. He is so convincing...he even has a harem of friends who have bought into this for years.

[truthtripper]

I think it is a slippery slope to blame yourself. People don't HAVE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE of people who are vulnerable.

Oh no, I don't blame myself. I just think that because I have invited abuse from people, the interaction is so familiar to me and thus happens so naturally that I haven't openly shown any distress, so they are less likely to be aware that their own behaviour was abusive. But no, this doesn't absolve them.

[NewLeaf512]

Oh no, I don't blame myself. I just think that because I have invited abuse from people, the interaction is so familiar to me and thus happens so naturally that I haven't openly shown any distress, so they are less likely to be aware that their own behaviour was abusive. But no, this doesn't absolve them.

 

 

My main worry all the TIME that I have picked up BPD traits from my mother when I was a child and I'd be distraught if I ever emotionally abused anyone. I have been in therapy for years and likely to be for the rest of my life.

[truthtripper]

My main worry all the TIME that I have picked up BPD traits from my mother when I was a child and I'd be distraught if I ever emotionally abused anyone. I have been in therapy for years and likely to be for the rest of my life.

It sounds like you've been working on yourself for a long time and have developed much more self-awareness than your mother would have ever had.

[SpiralOut]

I am wondering if any of you have experienced this.

 

 

From an early age I learned to be quiet. The other person gets to talk as much as they want, I'm supposed to sit there and not talk about myself, whatever is happening with me is uninteresting, etc. Somehow I have managed to have normal friendships where my opinion actually matters to the other person. So I know what "normal" or "healthy" friendships look like. However, in most cases with most people I sit back and let the other person have all the attention.

 

 

Since starting recovery, I have noticed this and started acting differently, basically trying to assert myself more and make the conversation more balanced. The reactions have shocked me. For example, I met up with a "friend" I had not seen in a year. We met for coffee and he sat there going on about everything happening with him. I listened patiently and showed interest. Twenty minutes later I noticed he had not asked a single question about me. We hadn't seen each other in a year and he wasn't asking about me. I waited for a break in the conversation, then started to share things that I had been up to. A normal, good friend would be interested in that right? Nope not him. You should have seen the look on his face. Anger. As if I did something wrong by talking about myself, even though he had been talking for over 20 minutes about himself without asking a single question about me. Then on top of that he abruptly and deliberately changed the subject back to himself, refusing to hear anything about me! Needless to say I don't bother to see him anymore.

 

 

Another example is this woman who befriended me some time ago. I did not see her as a friend but she kept insisting on going out so I went along, thinking it couldn't hurt to see if we had something in common. Well she sat there talking about herself practically all night. Every now and then she would ask a question about me, then immediately change the subject back to herself after I answered. This became very boring. At one point I felt myself relating to something she had said, so I shared my own experience with her, as my way of trying to connect or show empathy. She looked at me as if she wanted to murder me. It really surprised me. She had been droning on and on half the night and as soon as I say something about myself I'm the bad guy? Like how dare I interrupt her monologue!

 

 

Has anyone else been in a situation where the other person seems to expect you to just sit there and be their sounding board, and if you dare to disrupt that (by actually *gasp* talking about yourself for two seconds!!) they become angry or upset with you? I sometimes feel like I am expected to act as a therapist and when I don't do that the other person can't handle it. I am left wondering if I did something wrong.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, for a good friend I am a great listener, but I don't want to do that for people I'm not close to, or for people who monopolize EVERY conversation we have.

[truthtripper]

Yes SpiralOut, I can share plenty of similar stories with you. I think these people are so not self-aware, they have no idea of how self-obsessed and self-consumed they are and how they appear to others. I also have a long-time friend from my school years, whom I only see once a year. In the whole 20 years we've known each other, she has never asked me how I am or anything about me, it's always been about her. The last time I visited her, I was with her for 3 hours. Within that time, she ate and drank, but never offered me anything. Only when I was leaving, she said " I just realised I haven't offered you anything. Would you like a drink?". Being a medical scientist, she has a responsible job, but lacks hugely when it comes to social interaction. She recently told me that during her childhood her father was an alcoholic. I always thought her dad was strange, but when we were kids, I had no idea about this. So anyway, this new piece of information helps me to understand her better.

[turnera]

Spiral, it actually makes perfect sense. Don't you see it? You say you learned early on to be the Giver, the Listener, to not expect anything from them. So when you become aware of this and you try to 'change the rules,' you see that it has NOT changed. Because that's not your role.

 

DD25 went through the exact same thing, at the behest of her therapist. To try to 'change the rules' so that SHE mattered, too. It backfired because THESE friends, the ones whom she had already set up in their roles as Taker had NO INTENTION of giving even enough to reach some sort of balance.

 

We've gone through years of this stuff. She's there for every one of them when they have issues, need help with something, need to be visited in the hospital, whatever...there she is. But when she was going through a depression...not a peep from anyone. When she reached out and asked if someone could come by the house when she was sick...sorry, too busy.

 

She understands WHY it keeps happening this way - she set these people UP to be Givers. But it doesn't stop it from hurting.

 

I think I said this before, but when she started Junior year of college, I told her to try something new. When she started in August, meet people in the new classes, but never offer anything. Don't offer to give them a ride. Don't offer food. Don't offer to help with homework. Just be around them and try to be as open and friendly as possible. See what happens.

 

What happened was that the Users, those looking for someone to latch onto who would be their support system, would give up and wander away and latch onto someone else. Those who are still saying hi to you and wanting to talk to you...well, they don't WANT anything from you other than to just be friends with.

 

And it really did work. She met the best friends ever, and not a one turned out to be like the person you described. Because she started the friendship out as equals.

 

As has been said, DD25 will have to meet NEW people moving forward to be able to have people in her life who won't Use her, because the ones she already has, will never give up that role. And that's not a dis on them, it's not their fault. It's kind of like, when a secretary works through college and then graduates and gets a new job at the same place as a manager, the people there will never really respect her as a manager; she'll always be that secretary they goofed around with. KWIM?

 

But now that you're seeing it and improving (and you are!), you'll be able to make new, great friends, moving forward.

[SpiralOut]

Yeah I'm not surprised that they didn't change their behaviour. I just didn't expect them to react with rage. I didn't expect a death glare. Wow.

 

 

My mother is narcissistic but if I try to change the subject she has no emotional reaction, just changes the subject back to herself like nothing happened.

[truthtripper]

Yeah I'm not surprised that they didn't change their behaviour. I just didn't expect them to react with rage. I didn't expect a death glare. Wow.

 

 

My mother is narcissistic but if I try to change the subject she has no emotional reaction, just changes the subject back to herself like nothing happened.

I've never got a "death glare" before(in this context), more a kind of uninterested/bored, glazed eyes expression. Reacting with rage is unusual, as not being able to listen to another person is often caused by dissociation. I can imagine it must have been extremely unsettling for you.

 

There was one housemate of mine, who often gave me death glares. She was an extremely antagonistic person who was always picking fights with me. The minute I would say something, she'd be yelling at me. Even if I said something trivial like, "it's a nice day", she would angrily disagree and make a big scene out of nothing. There was definitely something wrong with her head.

[SpiralOut]

I've never got a "death glare" before(in this context), more a kind of uninterested/bored, glazed eyes expression. Reacting with rage is unusual, as not being able to listen to another person is often caused by dissociation. I can imagine it must have been extremely unsettling for you.

 

There was one housemate of mine, who often gave me death glares. She was an extremely antagonistic person who was always picking fights with me. The minute I would say something, she'd be yelling at me. Even if I said something trivial like, "it's a nice day", she would angrily disagree and make a big scene out of nothing. There was definitely something wrong with her head.

 

Yeah it was unsettling. Both of the people I mentioned need to be the center of attention. I'd noticed they became annoyed whenever attention is taken away from them (by me or someone else) and they quickly work to bring attention back to themselves. Maybe that's not narcissism but something else.

 

Anyway I don't talk to them anymore. It was just so odd that I couldn't help wondering about it.

[Taramere]

There was one housemate of mine, who often gave me death glares. She was an extremely antagonistic person who was always picking fights with me. The minute I would say something, she'd be yelling at me. Even if I said something trivial like, "it's a nice day", she would angrily disagree and make a big scene out of nothing. There was definitely something wrong with her head.

 

I recall somebody like that from university. The moment I ventured an opinion about anything, it was like a trigger for her. I would have been happy to just keep a respectful distance between us, but she had this notion that the two of us should try to be friends - even though she found me difficult to like. That we should try to break past this "barrier between us". And stupidly, because I was young and keen to try to get along with everybody, I would allow myself to be subjected to these often very offensive and aggressive "attempts to break down the barriers".

 

Anyway, one time a group of us formed a study group to help eachother with a particular assignment that a lot of people were struggling with. I wasn't keen to participate, since she was in the study group and I knew what would happen. However, since the assignment was in one of my stronger subjects, I knew I was likely to get a good mark - and I guessed people would think it a bit mean/selfish if I turned down the study group invitation. I went along, and it was exactly as I expected. Every time I ventured a thought or an opinion, she'd get angry and shout me down. So I gave up trying to express my opinions.

 

Then, when we got our assignments back, she had received a pretty low mark whereas I had got a high one. She went mental at me, and accused me of having kept my knowledge and ideas to myself during the study group. This, she said, was because I was selfish and competitive. I pointed out that every time I'd tried to contribute she had reacted in a frustrated and angry way. She railed and railed some more - and seemed to feel that it was my role to "manage" her anger and frustration with me and help her to get past it. I remember somebody else saying "if that's how you were behaving in the study group I'm not surprised Taramere gave up trying to participate." Which added to the fire.

 

I steered clear of her as much as I could, but I know that there were a couple of other students on the course who ended up consulting with their advisers about problems they'd had with her. A few years after we'd all graduated, I encountered an old boss of hers. Casting discretion to the wind, I casually asked how he'd got along with her. When he pulled across a seat and sat down, I knew it was going to become something of a debriefing session. It was. It could basically be summed up as "supervising her was the worst experience of my professional life."

 

There were some aspects of her behaviour that you could certainly describe as narcissistic - but generally, she was an extremely angry and troubled person who seemed to bring negativity into the lives of most people who had to have dealings with her.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Taramere

[truthtripper]

I recall somebody like that from university. The moment I ventured an opinion about anything, it was like a trigger for her. I would have been happy to just keep a respectful distance between us, but she had this notion that the two of us should try to be friends - even though she found me difficult to like. That we should try to break past this "barrier between us". And stupidly, because I was young and keen to try to get along with everybody, I would allow myself to be subjected to these often very offensive and aggressive "attempts to break down the barriers".

 

Anyway, one time a group of us formed a study group to help eachother with a particular assignment that a lot of people were struggling with. I wasn't keen to participate, since she was in the study group and I knew what would happen. However, since the assignment was in one of my stronger subjects, I knew I was likely to get a good mark - and I guessed people would think it a bit mean/selfish if I turned down the study group invitation. I went along, and it was exactly as I expected. Every time I ventured a thought or an opinion, she'd get angry and shout me down. So I gave up trying to express my opinions.

 

Then, when we got our assignments back, she had received a pretty low mark whereas I had got a high one. She went mental at me, and accused me of having kept my knowledge and ideas to myself during the study group. This, she said, was because I was selfish and competitive. I pointed out that every time I'd tried to contribute she had reacted in a frustrated and angry way. She railed and railed some more - and seemed to feel that it was my role to "manage" her anger and frustration with me and help her to get past it. I remember somebody else saying "if that's how you were behaving in the study group I'm not surprised Taramere gave up trying to participate." Which added to the fire.

 

I steered clear of her as much as I could, but I know that there were a couple of other students on the course who ended up consulting with their advisers about problems they'd had with her. A few years after we'd all graduated, I encountered an old boss of hers. Casting discretion to the wind, I casually asked how he'd got along with her. When he pulled across a seat and sat down, I knew it was going to become something of a debriefing session. It was. It could basically be summed up as "supervising her was the worst experience of my professional life."

 

There were some aspects of her behaviour that you could certainly describe as narcissistic - but generally, she was an extremely angry and troubled person who seemed to bring negativity into the lives of most people who had to have dealings with her.

I remember that my housemate, Anna, had a lot of family burdens. Her mother had muscular dystrophy(a degenerative disease)which Anna wasn't coping with well at all. I think she was suffering from a grief which she wasn't acknowledging and was consequently projecting it onto vulnerable people like me. I was surprised that she wanted to "keep in touch" with me when I moved out of the house. It didn't make any sense, since she often told me that even my mere presence "stressed" her out. She began calling me at my new house(there were bill issues we had to sort out so she needed my new number, otherwise I wouldn't have given it to her) and would end up wining about all her problems to me. I also think she was trying to use me to "manage" her anger. I can relate to that.

[Taramere]

I also think she was trying to use me to "manage" her anger. I can relate to that.

 

I used to work in kids' homes. I was told that it was a kind of compliment when kids "lost it" (in a way that sometimes meant they had to be physically restrained - eg if they were putting somebody at risk) because it meant they felt safe. I had a bit of a problem with that, for the reasons you say. Just because a person is reasonably stable and capable of staying calm in the face of angry, abusive behaviour - it doesn't make it okay for other people to "use them to manage their anger". The reality in the kids' home situation was of course that it was part of our job to help those young people manage their anger. But, to me, without giving them the message of "it's okay to let it all out and rail at us - we can take it."

 

I told my keychild as much one day, when she told me that the boss had told her "this is the place to let your anger out. We can cope." My response was "this is the place where you are expected to work hard to manage your anger. We will help, but not by being punchbags. It's not okay to just let it all spill out and verbally abuse us because you think we can take it...and I will not tolerate that from you. I don't care what (the boss) says about it. Nobody, not even the boss, has the right to give you any message that it's okay to be verbally abusive to the staff in here."

 

I think anybody who finds themselves in that role (either willingly, because they've taken on a job that involves helping people who have anger management problems - or in an involuntary way because somebody with an anger problem has decided to use them in that way) is well advised to learn how to assert themselves in the face of some of that "it's okay to vent it all out - that's what those people are here for...to take it" thinking.

 

A very narcissistic person is going to leap onto that bandwagon. "Your role is to help me. I'm very sensitive, and all sorts of things can trigger me...so you have to be very aware of that. But I don't need to return the favour, because I'm too busy trying to deal with my own crap to be expected to worry about other people." When the relationship flounders or ends, they will encourage you to feel that you've failed. You triggered their disordered/abusive behaviour by not being careful enough. Not being smart or diligent enough to recognise and meet their long list of needs and wants. of their long list of needs and wants. Or by checking some of their equally long list of dealbreakers.

 

It's a very good thing to "fail" in a personal relationship with an extremely narcissistic sort of person. It usually means that you've asserted a boundary. Behaved with self respect. Refused to get sucked in by some manipulative tactic. All I can really advocate, for anybody who is feeling abused in a relationship, is to recognise and let go of the fear of "failing" (failure to make that relationship work) and see that failure as akin to the door to your own personal Room 101 being slammed angrily in your face.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Taramere

[NewLeaf512]

I am wondering if any of you have experienced this.

 

 

From an early age I learned to be quiet. The other person gets to talk as much as they want, I'm supposed to sit there and not talk about myself, whatever is happening with me is uninteresting, etc. Somehow I have managed to have normal friendships where my opinion actually matters to the other person. So I know what "normal" or "healthy" friendships look like. However, in most cases with most people I sit back and let the other person have all the attention.

 

 

Since starting recovery, I have noticed this and started acting differently, basically trying to assert myself more and make the conversation more balanced. The reactions have shocked me. For example, I met up with a "friend" I had not seen in a year. We met for coffee and he sat there going on about everything happening with him. I listened patiently and showed interest. Twenty minutes later I noticed he had not asked a single question about me. We hadn't seen each other in a year and he wasn't asking about me. I waited for a break in the conversation, then started to share things that I had been up to. A normal, good friend would be interested in that right? Nope not him. You should have seen the look on his face. Anger. As if I did something wrong by talking about myself, even though he had been talking for over 20 minutes about himself without asking a single question about me. Then on top of that he abruptly and deliberately changed the subject back to himself, refusing to hear anything about me! Needless to say I don't bother to see him anymore.

 

 

Another example is this woman who befriended me some time ago. I did not see her as a friend but she kept insisting on going out so I went along, thinking it couldn't hurt to see if we had something in common. Well she sat there talking about herself practically all night. Every now and then she would ask a question about me, then immediately change the subject back to herself after I answered. This became very boring. At one point I felt myself relating to something she had said, so I shared my own experience with her, as my way of trying to connect or show empathy. She looked at me as if she wanted to murder me. It really surprised me. She had been droning on and on half the night and as soon as I say something about myself I'm the bad guy? Like how dare I interrupt her monologue!

 

 

Has anyone else been in a situation where the other person seems to expect you to just sit there and be their sounding board, and if you dare to disrupt that (by actually *gasp* talking about yourself for two seconds!!) they become angry or upset with you? I sometimes feel like I am expected to act as a therapist and when I don't do that the other person can't handle it. I am left wondering if I did something wrong.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, for a good friend I am a great listener, but I don't want to do that for people I'm not close to, or for people who monopolize EVERY conversation we have.

 

Yes. You were taught well and are repeating patterns

[truthtripper]

A very narcissistic person is going to leap onto that bandwagon. "Your role is to help me. I'm very sensitive, and all sorts of things can trigger me...so you have to be very aware of that. But I don't need to return the favour, because I'm too busy trying to deal with my own crap to be expected to worry about other people." When the relationship flounders or ends, they will encourage you to feel that you've failed. You triggered their disordered/abusive behaviour by not being careful enough. Not being smart or diligent enough to recognise and meet their long list of needs and wants. of their long list of needs and wants. Or by checking some of their equally long list of dealbreakers.

.

Luckily our relationship fizzled out before it could get to that critical stage. We did have a lot of interests in common, but her mental disorder was too draining for me.

 

Re kids "letting go" sounds like primal therapy. I've heard this kind of therapy can be really effective. Actually there was a guy in my support group who used to have an extremely nervous disposition but after several months of this therapy he evolved into a relatively confident, calm person. He swore by it. But it didn't mean that he should go around uncontrollably yelling at people, as you describe with those kids. Rather it happens in a professionally supervised, controlled environment.