Narcissistic Abuse

[turnera]

To be fair, people here are discussing experiences in their lives that have severely damaged them. The issue of whether their partner would or could be 100% diagnosed by a psychiatrist as a narcissist is a moot point for several reasons, not the least of which is that it is a spectrum, not a chemical analysis. What matters is did the OP SUFFER at the hands of their partner? If so, that partner is almost surely dysfunctional and dangerous.

 

Let us not get bogged down in whether our partner would pass a 'Narc' test. We are merely discussing WHY we were trashed and how we can avoid it in the future.

[circlesinfinity]

Has anyone here been in a relationship with a malignant narcissist and successfully recovered? I've had several of these relationships in my life. First being my dad and briefly dating, obsessing and getting dumped by men who are in this category. Any feedback is appreciated.

I am not sure if I posted already, sorry if I did...

 

Well my father was a narcissist. I knew something was wrong with him when I hit my late teens. I would keep things tidy around the house, try to maintain perfect grades (which I didn't even master because I always had to do chores) and stop bothering to ask for money that was clearly not going to be given to me, even if I needed it.

 

He treated my brother very badly, was jealous of him and mainly ignored him. I am just so glad he didn't put his hands on my brother.

 

My brother and I were always close so I never felt that competition that my father used to pin us agianat each other with.

 

My mom suffered a lot of course. Before she knew that something was wrong with him, she thought his behavior was normal. That him "jokingly" calling her fat and talking about other women who he thought was "so fine", was taken as innocent blows.

 

I hated that, I started to hate him too and was relieved when he would work many odd hours...or so he claims. He did have two-three jobs, had the diet plan of a teen boy and we barely saw him.

 

This slowly started to happen when the family took notice of all his issues.

 

There was one incident when he made a large barbecue brunch. Everything was fine, my brother, mom and I was wondering why my father was outside. So he comes in and announces that we could finally get some yard work done around here.

 

He then turns on the weed whacker IN THE HOUSE!!! my mom looked so upset and my brother and I were shocked.

 

What sane person does this?

 

I am in the process of recovering from his abuse, it is not easy but if you have support and surround yourself with sincere people, you can get through it.

[circlesinfinity]

To be fair, people here are discussing experiences in their lives that have severely damaged them. The issue of whether their partner would or could be 100% diagnosed by a psychiatrist as a narcissist is a moot point for several reasons, not the least of which is that it is a spectrum, not a chemical analysis. What matters is did the OP SUFFER at the hands of their partner? If so, that partner is almost surely dysfunctional and dangerous.

 

Let us not get bogged down in whether our partner would pass a 'Narc' test. We are merely discussing WHY we were trashed and how we can avoid it in the future.

From what I know, narcissist do not see that there is anything wrong with them so they never get any help. It is so sad.

[truthtripper]

Because the guy who has had multiple surguries on his knee will obviously know whats best for him during the next surgery.

 

Please.

DrReplyInRhymes, the services psychiatrists and surgeons provide and the role of forums are two different things. Forums are as you describe, a platform for which people can "regurgitate", share and compare their experiences. No one here is advocating the use of forums over seeking professional advice.

[truthtripper]

I don't think the word "narcissistic" in itself need denote a disorder that would be for a psychiatrist to describe. It's a bit like calling somebody "vain", "egotistical" or "self absorbed".

 

But I agree that the word tends to often be used to suggest "narcissistic personality disorder"...which would be for an independent professional person to diagnose. Any one of us could probably be pathologised by somebody who was angry with us and wanted to deal with it in that way. Personality disorders involve, after all, an extreme form of traits that - pleasant or not - are fairly normal human traits.

 

Somebody who might seem a bit annoyingly narcissistic by ordinary standards, but not really anything out of the ordinary, might find themselves demonised as "having undiagnosed narcissistic personality disorder" by an ex partner who is badly hurt by the relationship break up. It's the nature of conflict that we start to magnify the "enemy's" flaws.

Obviously, everyone has there own eccentricities. But the people here are not merely complaining about the "vain, egotistical or self-absorbed", they have been abused and traumatised. It's a sensitive topic so be careful not to minimise their suffering as that is abuse in itself.

 

Dismissing abusive behaviour is a sign of denial which is not helpful to anyone.

[Taramere]

Obviously, everyone has there own eccentricities. But the people here are not merely complaining about the "vain, egotistical or self-absorbed", they have been abused and traumatised. It's a sensitive topic so be careful not to minimise their suffering as that is abuse in itself.

 

Right. I'll leave you to it, I think.

[truthtripper]

I had a relationship with somebody who was very narcissistic, but I don't know that it would have been to an extent that was disordered. To be honest, although his self absorption could be hurtful at times, in many ways he was a sweet person. He'd have never hit me, for instance, or called me abusive names. But he could certainly be weird. The effort for most of the relationship was more about fielding other people's criticisms and judgements about him.

 

For the most part, when we were alone together we would have great sex, great conversations and generally a very good time. The difficulties set in outside, when he'd become this weird (and often very embarrassing, frankly) character around other people.

 

The end of the relationship was bad, though. That's when I saw a colder and more unpleasant side to him. But for the most part, I'd say what I encountered was strangeness rather than anything abusive. What I was left with afterwards was primarily a sense of injustice that I had adopted this very tolerant and loyal (given some other people's reactions to him) approach for a long time, but in the end the loyalty was not reciprocated. I felt unappreciated, as people so often do at the end of relationships. For a while I got really into analysing the whole thing from the "I think he had NPD" perspective. It did no good.

 

 

 

Right. I agree. I had a friend who had studied psychology at university, but didn't obtain any clinical experience afterwards. She had pretty much everybody around her diagnosed with something or other. She used her degree in psychology like a weapon...but ultimately, a degree in that subject doesn't have much meaning (in terms of assessing people's mental health) unless you have the clinical experience to understand what these traits emphasised to a degree that is abnormal and disordered by clinical standards look like.

 

 

 

I sympathise. Lots of us have, at some point, been on the receiving end of these armchair diagnoses. It's not pleasant - not least because it's almost a denial of our personalities - by pathologising them needlessly. I think often what you're seeing, when a person does that, is their own coping mechanisms in action. The ex friend who diagnosed me and others (her relatives, ex husband, various acquaintances - some of whom she maintained were psychopaths) tended to adopt the "little professor" role in an attempt to elevate herself from conflict that, in reality, she was well and truly ensconced in.

 

One last thing. I don't think professionals themselves are necessarily immune from making these emotional diagnoses. I remember being absorbed by "Without Conscience" - by Dr Robert Hare, who has interviewed many people in prison who have been diagnosed with an antisocial disorder. Towards the end of the book, I detected a feeling of strong antipathy for psychopaths (not surprisingly, to be fair - given the dreadful crimes a lot of the ones he interviewed had committed) in his writing.

 

Ages later, I read the Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson. I loved it. He seemed to view the whole thing in very much the same terms as I did. He met Dr Hare, and I think he was slightly alarmed by Dr Hare diagnosing people who cut him up in traffic as "psychopaths".

Injustice=abuse.

[Taramere]

Injustice=abuse.

 

I don't think that ex was abusive. I think he was immature and self centred. I also think that he had reached a point where he wanted out of the relationship, and didn't quite know how to extricate himself. So he handled himself badly as people often tend to in times of conflict. Of course, I don't know - I can only guess. Maybe there were elements of intentional malignancy, or perhaps he was just a mess. Possibly a combination of the two.

 

People can become unpleasant and even spiteful when they're under stress. I think it's possible to set a boundary and say "I'm not going to put up with that behaviour" without labelling somebody as a narcissist. Sometimes it seems as though people need to label an ex partner as a narcissist in order to break away from the relationship. "That's it. They're a narcissist, and all the literature says there's nothing you can do to cure a narcissist. They're unfixable, therefore the only sane thing I can do is run away."

 

Maybe it would be helpful if people could stop for a second and remind themselves "I don't need to justify my decision to walk away. It doesn't need to reach the point where somebody is an incurable narcissist, or psychopath for me to walk away. All that's necessary is that they've violated my personal boundaries, and that they're either not prepared to make the effort to rebuild trust - or I don't believe trust can be rebuilt.

 

Once a person starts thinking in terms of "I've been abused in a narcissistic way" I think it encourages them to focus on the person they feel abused by. Looking for as much evidence as they can find that "yes, this person really was a narcissist. They meet every single item on that list of diagnostic criteria."

 

I think ultimately people are more empowered when they shift their focus away from diagnosing somebody they've felt hurt by, and towards clarifying their own boundaries - and not feeling any need to justify having those boundaries, or feeling hurt, or taking the decision to walk away from the person who's hurting them. Without feeling the need to have any "victim of narcissistic abuse" status.

 

I personally think that's a lot more empowering than going through life labelling everybody who hurts or offends you as an abuser...and, in doing so, continually labelling yourself as a victim.

[truthtripper]

I think ultimately people are more empowered when they shift their focus away from diagnosing somebody they've felt hurt by, and towards clarifying their own boundaries - and not feeling any need to justify having those boundaries, or feeling hurt, or taking the decision to walk away from the person who's hurting them. Without feeling the need to have any "victim of narcissistic abuse" status.

 

I personally think that's a lot more empowering than going through life labelling everybody who hurts or offends you as an abuser...and, in doing so, continually labelling yourself as a victim.

No, it's not right to put people in boxes. All abusive behaviour stems from child abuse. It's simply easier to refer to the abusive person or perpetrator as a narc psychopath, pedophile etc when talking or writing about them, especially for people for which these behaviours were the norm in their childhood. It helps them to define in their own minds what actually is normal behaviour as opposed to that in their families.

 

In my view, the terms victim and survivor are derogatory.

[NewLeaf512]

I completely agree, but here is where I am getting annoyed and confused at all these proclamations: These are traits exhibited by everyone.

 

So, in reality, everyone is narcissistic, or exhibits behaviors as such, as you have said.

 

Yet, the 'experiences' and relative explanations that are following are laughable from some of these posters. It's just coincidence for most of them, and perpetuating misinformation is the same as not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

 

I'm sorry some of you dealt with a real narcissist. It's a horrible disorder to overcome, and I salute those who have tried and especially succeeded (if there is such a thing).

 

However, because narcissism is essentially accentuated human traits which is displayed by every single person in the history of mankind every single day, my point is you're going to relate to these tendencies somehow, someway, with anyone.

 

Many of these explanations are just coincidence. The behavior patterns seem to match, so 'NPD' becomes the explanation. However, they have no basis for a comparison, and even if they do have firsthand experience with narcissism, unless they decided to research about 10,000 man hours into a legitimate education on the subject, you can't reasonably assume that these behaviors, observable in everyone , can be diagnosed by a few lines of text at the end of a telephone-game chain describing someone.

 

I had a run-in with someone who decided to give an arm-chair diagnosis on this site. They sure could repeat their experience, and they could repeat what the disorder was, but because these disorders are about observing behaviors and patterns on an individualistic basis and seeing that the trait was indeed out of a range of what we consider to be a "social norm", it was completely unfounded. Could I relate to his bulleted checkmarks? Yes, everyone could. Did that make me have whatever disorder he was outlining? An astounding NO was discovered in my case. Do I display other "issues" I deal with? Yes, as does everyone.

 

Can you have firsthand experience? Yes. Can you learn more? Yes. Could you know more than the average joe? Probably!

 

But just because I have plenty of first-hand experience with something does not mean all irrelevant observations done by me can act as the evidence to my findings.

 

Furthermore, life is not determined by "what" happens to you, but what you do after "it" happens. Unfortunately, I've learned this later in life than I care to admit.

 

However, most of these people are out for answers, and often stop researching once they get an acceptable answer. I find it increasingly pertinent to spread information that is correct, not just "relatable".

 

We don't pretend to all be knowledgeable in nueroscience just because we all have a brain, do we?

 

 

This is just a place holder post to let you know I will fully respond when I'm awake,

 

My mom is a dual diagnosis narcissist and BPD however in the 70's they didn't call it that they thought the cross was sociopath , she spent over a year in a private hospital getting ECT AMONG other things whilst we were 5 and 6 and started being sexually abused by someone in the house hold, it's taken me years to understand myself.

 

 

More later

[truthtripper]

This is just a place holder post to let you know I will fully respond when I'm awake,

 

My mom is a dual diagnosis narcissist and BPD however in the 70's they didn't call it that they thought the cross was sociopath , she spent over a year in a private hospital getting ECT AMONG other things whilst we were 5 and 6 and started being sexually abused by someone in the house hold, it's taken me years to understand myself.

 

 

More later

NewLeaf, we should not be pressured to give proof of our suffering to anyone. Empathy and compassion is what we need. Don't succumb to a position where you feel you have to beg for understanding. We have to protect ourselves.

[NewLeaf512]

NewLeaf, we should not be pressured to give proof of our suffering to anyone. Empathy and compassion is what we need. Don't succumb to a position where you feel you have to beg for understanding. We have to protect ourselves.

 

 

You are right. I don't have to justify my life to anyone. x

[Heatherknows]

It was not just his lack of empathy, but his confused, mixed messages ie: taking you to the gardens, saying he doesn't really like you and then talking about proposing to you-this childish flippancy is a sure narc trait.

 

It's the confusing behavior that can make you insane it's a form of gaslighting I suppose.

[Heatherknows]

To be fair, people here are discussing experiences in their lives that have severely damaged them. The issue of whether their partner would or could be 100% diagnosed by a psychiatrist as a narcissist is a moot point for several reasons, not the least of which is that it is a spectrum, not a chemical analysis. What matters is did the OP SUFFER at the hands of their partner? If so, that partner is almost surely dysfunctional and dangerous.

 

Let us not get bogged down in whether our partner would pass a 'Narc' test. We are merely discussing WHY we were trashed and how we can avoid it in the future.

 

My boyfriends that had abusive narc behavior did damage to my self esteem when I was involved with them but I never lasted long. I'm married now to a man who doesn't have one narc trait. He's like the anti-narc. But the guys that I got involved with who were narcs pushed my buttons like my father and I regressed to a helpless, crazed child trying to find out how to make daddy love me. I tried so hard to please these men while at the same time being so freaking angry that I tried to use the same maniuplation tatics they were using on me. I wanted to win the fight. I never did. I just wasted a lot of time trying to fight and make the daddy image love me. It was emotionally exhausting and I learned that you never win even if you think you win you lose. I've learned life is short and wasting a precious minute of it with a narc is a huge mistake. I am always in recovery and when I run into people who try this narc type of behavior on me I can become a victim if I don't form strong boundaries. I'm always always always in recovery.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Heatherknows

[Heatherknows]

From what I know, narcissist do not see that there is anything wrong with them so they never get any help. It is so sad.

 

Yep! In fact some love therapy they get to sit and talk about their favorite subject: Themselves.

[truthtripper]

It's the confusing behavior that can make you insane it's a form of gaslighting I suppose.

Gaslighting-love this term, it's so fitting.

[circlesinfinity]

Has anyone heard of a "Covert" Narcissist?

[truthtripper]

Has anyone heard of a "Covert" Narcissist?

I just googled it-the "shy" narcissist, as opposed to the arrogant "overt" narcissist.

[NewLeaf512]

Has anyone heard of a "Covert" Narcissist?

 

 

Yes. I know exactly what that is.

[GypsyGirl966]

These narcissistic abusers like to make you think you're the "worthless" one. They feel above you and let it be known to you.

 

This..... and long-term relationships with them can be very, very damaging. I was in a 17+ year relationship with a narcissist who presents exceptionally well to the rest of the world. He has a spectacular facade. The past 4+ years I actually started to mirror his narcissistic traits back at him. It became the only way I could protect myself, the 'tit for tat' sh*t. So that when he would put me down or complain about me, I could respond, "I know exactly how you feel because you do the same thing to me." He could still find the most miniscule differences to justify his nearly identical behavior toward me yet condemn mine toward him.

 

I now have to live with the shame, disappointment, and emotional fallout of my daughter having witnessed me behave in similar ways during these past 4+ years. Ironically, you cannot win against a narcissist by acting like them. My efforts to mirror back at him were clumsy and obvious, and simply made me look like an ass to my kid. Whenever she brings up something I've done wrong, I acknowledge it was wrong, I tell her what I should have / could have done differently, and I apologize that she had to see me that way.

 

The most I can do is try to recover who I was before I started to mirror those traits, pick that path back up again, and at least I don't have the constant drag that comes from living with a narcissist.

 

The good news is that within 3 weeks of telling me he wanted a divorce he was in a committed relationship with someone new. The best thing that can happen is for them to move on to a new target. He is still in the process of grooming her so I continue to be the cause / source of his victimhood and he occasionally tries to 'get a fix' from me. I do my best to follow NC (a godsend), but we still have some contact due to parenting and a business we run together. I do my best to ignore his jabs at me and stay focused on the few topics I do have to discuss with him. At first I would fight back by telling him to stop being a victim and own his half of why our marriage failed, but that is foolish of me, his mind is incapable of processing it.

[ByMyself01]

So I think it's safe to label my ex as a narcissist. He started the behavior though about 3-4 months ago after a 2 and a half year relationship. The signs were there but the full traits became apparent in the last 3-4 months of being together. He had a hard time saying "thank you" and everything i did that he wanted wasn't good enough. For instance, I would cook and he would say i have too much or too little of something. I used to cry in front of him and he showed no empathy instead he became angry at me for crying when I clearly was hurt. And some things I would get for him that he needed, if he didn't like it, he had no problem giving it back and avoided it like the plague. I was called stupid and he even told his friends I am/was the dumbest woman he's had so far.

 

I know I was a fool for wanting him back, but now that I'm thinking of all the damage he has done to me emotionally, I cannot go back even though I do miss the good times (there were more good than bad) which is why it took me a while to realize his narcissism. I think at one point I did make him feel love or he just got tired of pretending the last 3-4 months of our relationship. He did a complete 360. I heard someone in this thread say some narcissist traits become activated when they are stressed out. I know he had more stress in that time period, but it's no excuse for his behavior.

 

But with his son he has shown narcissist traits by telling his son that kids at school will beat him up for being soft and making the poor kid feel bad. Then his daughter is still a toddler so there's no telling if he will do the same to her. Right now, his daughter seems to be the only person that can produce him to show real feelings towards unless he's pretending to please everyone around him since his whole family told him the best thing for him to do is to be single and take care of his daughter.

 

Towards the very end of the relationship, he even tried to play mind trickery on me by writing to me after we would have a fun day of sex and spending time, he would switch it around and make it seem like I was raping him and taking advantage of him when he's the one who gets on a train and travel almost 2 hours to come see me. LOL. He really believes in his mind that I initiate sex every single time and that he never wanted it from me when he's the one would get in my bed, undress and let it all hang out and sometimes he would start caressing me. I think there is a real mental issue there or he knows what he's doing, but it angers me that he thinks I'm really that shallow and dumb.

 

Also, he does have childhood abuse form both of his parents, where he told me when we first met that they never really showed him love. So he meets me, I may be one of the only women that showed him love for I am very sensual and affectionate and caring. I think he just does not know what love is because he was never shown it, so when he met a woman like me, the only way he knew how to deal with the love overload was to abuse it. He never could receive it, now he's on the road to looking for "love." In his eyes, I was dumb. I think he correlates showing kindness to being weak and dumb. But I have a dark side to be discussed later in another post.

 

There's some real emotional baggage, I believe he's attracted to women and have relationships last longer with women who treats him like crap, like his ex for instance.

Edited October 11, 2015 by ByMyself01

[ByMyself01]

This..... and long-term relationships with them can be very, very damaging. I was in a 17+ year relationship with a narcissist who presents exceptionally well to the rest of the world. He has a spectacular facade. The past 4+ years I actually started to mirror his narcissistic traits back at him. It became the only way I could protect myself, the 'tit for tat' sh*t. So that when he would put me down or complain about me, I could respond, "I know exactly how you feel because you do the same thing to me." He could still find the most miniscule differences to justify his nearly identical behavior toward me yet condemn mine toward him.

 

I now have to live with the shame, disappointment, and emotional fallout of my daughter having witnessed me behave in similar ways during these past 4+ years. Ironically, you cannot win against a narcissist by acting like them. My efforts to mirror back at him were clumsy and obvious, and simply made me look like an ass to my kid. Whenever she brings up something I've done wrong, I acknowledge it was wrong, I tell her what I should have / could have done differently, and I apologize that she had to see me that way.

 

The most I can do is try to recover who I was before I started to mirror those traits, pick that path back up again, and at least I don't have the constant drag that comes from living with a narcissist.

 

The good news is that within 3 weeks of telling me he wanted a divorce he was in a committed relationship with someone new. The best thing that can happen is for them to move on to a new target. He is still in the process of grooming her so I continue to be the cause / source of his victimhood and he occasionally tries to 'get a fix' from me. I do my best to follow NC (a godsend), but we still have some contact due to parenting and a business we run together. I do my best to ignore his jabs at me and stay focused on the few topics I do have to discuss with him. At first I would fight back by telling him to stop being a victim and own his half of why our marriage failed, but that is foolish of me, his mind is incapable of processing it.

 

Yeah it's like they blame us for everything but the things they do are ALWAYS right in their eyes. My ex still blames me for our break-up and everytime we talk about it and I explain to him what he did to make me do what I did, he gets angry and block me.

[truthtripper]

.. I would fight back by telling him to stop being a victim and own his half of why our marriage failed, but that is foolish of me, his mind is incapable of processing it.

That's the most difficult and saddest part.

[truthtripper]

So I think it's safe to label my ex as a narcissist. He started the behavior though about 3-4 months ago after a 2 and a half year relationship. The signs were there but the full traits became apparent in the last 3-4 months of being together.

We get blinded by "love", fun and good times, so we don't take heed of the signs, but also to some degree the signs may have a familiarity that may even consciously or subconsciously attract us-depending on our childhood conditioning.

[Heatherknows]

The past 4+ years I actually started to mirror his narcissistic traits back at him. It became the only way I could protect myself, the 'tit for tat' sh*t. So that when he would put me down or complain about me, I could respond, "I know exactly how you feel because you do the same thing to me." He could still find the most miniscule differences to justify his nearly identical behavior toward me yet condemn mine toward him.

 

 

I did this too. I figured it would empower me by trying to "beat" them at their own game. I sucked at the game and felt worse for playing.