Revenge [pertaining to infidelity]

[xxoo]

I don't think anyone posting is advocating deception/lies. In regard to children, the most important is that they are taught and loved.

 

Taught, is not lost. Grace, safety and love when they are little. Courage, safety, love and......Perseverance/Goodness as they are older.

 

Every parent/child relationship is different and so parents decide when/how to discuss particulars.

 

As a parent, I will spin road kill to a life lesson.

I will bring my kids to give food and shelter to a person who hasn't any. They see my manners to everyone, from helping an aged person cross traffic to listening when a person needs listened to. Please/thank you and excuse me.

 

They will learn that mommy keeps cool, calm and giving under duress or they learn that mommy turns into a devil when she does not get her way.

 

Isn't that my job? Didn't my right to have everything about me end when I had them in the chute?

 

I guess it sucks to be cheated on but I never saw it as an excuse for bad behavior. I never once thought that though I sincerely despise my ex, it would be ok for me to be an a**hole.

 

I always thought that I am responsible for my own actions and that I am responsible for the well being of my children.

 

Even if no one else thought so but myself.

 

My post was regarding telling the BS, not the kids.

 

Still, I believe mommy can keep her cool AND be honest.

 

And while I don't condone hurting kids, ever, I don't judge the BS more harshly than the affair partners.

[xxoo]

We love our relationship. We have guilt about the affair part and wish we had not started that way but we can't go back. So we go forward and try to do the right things now. We went to therapy and reconciled our feelings, we are ok now with guilt because we have to live with ourselves and one another and we had to move on and forgive ourselves, but I don't know if it will ever completely leave us.

 

I have a very large mixed bag of feelings with regard to his ex ranging from feeling bad to rolling my eyes depending how she is trying to ruin my life this week. In the end, it makes me mad but I played my part.

 

I rambled and don't know if I answered your question. Lol. Sorry.

 

You answered it.

 

That lasting cloud is just another way affairs suck. It's interesting, because people say living well is the best revenge, but her pain is surely more hurtful.

 

I hope she finds peace, for everyone's sake.

[Timshel]

You answered it.

 

That lasting cloud is just another way affairs suck. It's interesting, because people say living well is the best revenge, but her pain is surely more hurtful.

 

I hope she finds peace, for everyone's sake.

 

I don't think there has been one post you've written that I disagree with. That's the truth. You and OldShirt. Can't think of one time either of you gave bad advice.

[Timshel]

I hope you are a writer, because you write so eloquently and beautiful. You express your feelings well with written word.

 

Thank you.

[SolG]

This truly is a fascinating thread! I don't know where to begin :/

 

Firstly I must correct some info in my post about a milion pages ago. Broderick was in fact found guilty of 2nd-degree murder. So similarly to Harris, a jury believed that the killings she committed were not premeditated. So there you go!

 

Secondly I have to comment on young marriage. We now know that the brain is not fully devrloped until approximately 25 years of age. Some of the last areas to mature are in the prefrontal cortex; the area of the brain responsible for emotion regulation, risk assessment and impulse control (amongst other things). Given this, it is absolutely no surprise that one of the biggest predictors of divorce is marriage under the age of 25. And further, that the rise in average age when first married (28 for females and 30 for men where I am) is a contributing factor in the falling divorce rate.

 

Yep, throughout the developed world while marriage rates in general are falling, the percentage of those marriages ending in divorce is falling as well. Interesting times!

 

Now back to revenge...

 

This whole thread is essentially about game theory in application. Game theory as in strategic decision making. (I'm a much bigger fan of the behavioral science elements than the math :-) I'm assuming that most of you have been exposed to prisoner's dillema?

 

Human cooperation, and the form and extent of it, is all about constant decision making with reference to risk and return. We constantly calculate what behaviour in a certain circumstance will deliver the biggest return calculated against probability of loss; variously consciously and not.

 

When revenge as discussed here is put through this prism it's actually all understable (if not necessarily excusable). One BS will choose to widely expose an OW because in their context it delivers an emotional dividend that far exceeds the relationship cost given there is no relationship currency with the OW (and therefore little risk) from the action. Conversely, their treatment of the WS will be more measured because there is more risk to self intetest in taking action in this sphere.

 

While another BS may carpet bomb expose a WS because in their calculation the payoff of humiliating and shaming a spouse is a precondition of reconciliation; which to that spouse is the ultimate payoff.

 

And lets not forget my fellow OW who feel the compulsion to confess to a BS... after the A has ended. While some maybe altruistic in their intentions, some are playing vengeful tit for tat. They no longer have a relationship investment so now can afford the risk of seeking payoff by hoping to upset the M.

 

Simplistic examples I know, but I'm sure you can extrapolate to the more complex where full contexts include children, and other factors.

 

Generous tit for tat is known to be a generically effective strategy. I wonder if that holds true for romantic relationships?

[SolG]

Oops. Double post.

[autumnnight]

I can understand being out for blood with regard to the WS and AP in one's own situation, That makes sense.

 

But let's face it - the internet is full of being who are just out for ALL WS and AP's blood, and part of their goal is to make sure that scarlet A never falls off of anyone.

 

THAT is not revenge, that is a....mental health issue that needs to be addressed in counseling.

[Got it]

I found out as an adult about an affair my mom had when we were very young. My father told me when they were divorcing. To be honest my only emotion towards it was annoyance that if that wasn't a sign they should have divorced decades earlier I don't know what was! I never judged either one of them because, frankly, the affair paled in comparison to some of the events that I got to witness growing up.

 

So we have discussed it, and I shake my head at their failure in marriage, but doesn't impact me or my siblings at all.

 

In regards to being in a marriage started as an affair, yes there is some residual emotions tied to it. We have all moved on but with the affair, the scorched earth tactics, the kids being put in the middle of it, it definitely is a wound that is continuing to heal.

 

The one thing I greatly respect about my husband, no matter the number of hits he has taken because of his affair, he has never told the kids about their mother's affair. Even when it would have "leveled the playing field" and may actually help explain his thinking and where he was in the marriage, he has refused to do so until the kids are older. He did not want to tell them in a manner that would be seen as trying to minimize his side/faults.

 

In regards to telling our baby how we met, it will be done in age appropriate ways. We are no more going to give the unvarnished truth with her than they did with their oldest. Nothing like being told, "yep mom and dad got knocked up a month after dating, mom still a teen and dad not much older, mom didn't talk to dad for the first six months of pregnancy as she contemplated an abortion, and so kept you and decided to shack up".

 

I don't believe that the kids know that the oldest was born prior to marriage either.

[velvette]

This truly is a fascinating thread! I don't know where to begin :/

 

Firstly I must correct some info in my post about a milion pages ago. Broderick was in fact found guilty of 2nd-degree murder. So similarly to Harris, a jury believed that the killings she committed were not premeditated. So there you go!

 

Secondly I have to comment on young marriage. We now know that the brain is not fully devrloped until approximately 25 years of age. Some of the last areas to mature are in the prefrontal cortex; the area of the brain responsible for emotion regulation, risk assessment and impulse control (amongst other things). Given this, it is absolutely no surprise that one of the biggest predictors of divorce is marriage under the age of 25. And further, that the rise in average age when first married (28 for females and 30 for men where I am) is a contributing factor in the falling divorce rate.

 

Yep, throughout the developed world while marriage rates in general are falling, the percentage of those marriages ending in divorce is falling as well. Interesting times!

 

Now back to revenge...

 

This whole thread is essentially about game theory in application. Game theory as in strategic decision making. (I'm a much bigger fan of the behavioral science elements than the math :-) I'm assuming that most of you have been exposed to prisoner's dillema?

 

Human cooperation, and the form and extent of it, is all about constant decision making with reference to risk and return. We constantly calculate what behaviour in a certain circumstance will deliver the biggest return calculated against probability of loss; variously consciously and not.

 

When revenge as discussed here is put through this prism it's actually all understable (if not necessarily excusable). One BS will choose to widely expose an OW because in their context it delivers an emotional dividend that far exceeds the relationship cost given there is no relationship currency with the OW (and therefore little risk) from the action. Conversely, their treatment of the WS will be more measured because there is more risk to self intetest in taking action in this sphere.

 

While another BS may carpet bomb expose a WS because in their calculation the payoff of humiliating and shaming a spouse is a precondition of reconciliation; which to that spouse is the ultimate payoff.

 

And lets not forget my fellow OW who feel the compulsion to confess to a BS... after the A has ended. While some maybe altruistic in their intentions, some are playing vengeful tit for tat. They no longer have a relationship investment so now can afford the risk of seeking payoff by hoping to upset the M.

 

Simplistic examples I know, but I'm sure you can extrapolate to the more complex where full contexts include children, and other factors.

 

Generous tit for tat is known to be a generically effective strategy. I wonder if that holds true for romantic relationships?

 

 

Can you say more about the bolded. Not really sure what you mean or are asking.

 

 

As for young marriages, I agree while also recognizing their are exceptions.

 

 

Finally, I don't think exposure is always done out of revenge or wanting to shame someone. More often I have seen it advocated or used as a way to create conflict in an A in order to end it. If there are also feelings of satisfaction seeing an OW or MM squirm, that's only a secondary payoff.

[autumnnight]

Can you say more about the bolded. Not really sure what you mean or are asking.

 

 

As for young marriages, I agree while also recognizing their are exceptions.

 

 

Finally, I don't think exposure is always done out of revenge or wanting to shame someone. More often I have seen it advocated or used as a way to create conflict in an A in order to end it. If there are also feelings of satisfaction seeing an OW or MM squirm, that's only a secondary payoff.

 

And it can be a very effective tool.

 

So what about all those affairs that already ended or ended years ago? Why again is it that those need to be exposed?

 

And wouldn't you agree that it is the BS decision to expose and not someone else's?

[katielee]

I have seen it advocated or used as a way to create conflict in an A in order to end it. If there are also feelings of satisfaction seeing an OW or MM squirm, that's only a secondary payoff.

 

why I exposed.

[autumnnight]

Generous tit for tat is known to be a generically effective strategy. I wonder if that holds true for romantic relationships?

 

There are entire marital relationship philosophies built on tit for tat and scorekeeping, so maybe it is.

[velvette]

And it can be a very effective tool.

 

So what about all those affairs that already ended or ended years ago? Why again is it that those need to be exposed?

 

And wouldn't you agree that it is the BS decision to expose and not someone else's?

 

 

I don't think I ever said affairs ended years ago need to be exposed. The only reason I can think of besides revenge is an OW who will not go away. I considered it a few years after the A in that situation.

 

 

Not sure I understand your last question, but yes its a BS decision whether or not to expose. Whose else decision would it be? Who else would have any interest in exposing.

[velvette]

why I exposed.

 

 

 

How did that work?

[autumnnight]

I don't think I ever said affairs ended years ago need to be exposed. The only reason I can think of besides revenge is an OW who will not go away. I considered it a few years after the A in that situation.

 

 

Not sure I understand your last question, but yes its a BS decision whether or not to expose. Whose else decision would it be? Who else would have any interest in exposing.

 

Well, you'd be surprised....

 

And es, I can see that if an AP will not go away, then exposure would be a very logical recourse. It would probably be the only one because taking legal action like an R would end up probably making some of it public anyway.

[AnotherSadSong]

why I exposed.

 

Curious, wouldn't you want to not create a bunch of conflict to see if your husband would reconcile without having his hands ties. I would feel uneasy about his true feelings toward me, if it was not his choice without all the blow up.

 

 

Just by him knowing you know alone should put the fear in him to drop it fast and reconcile.

[autumnnight]

Curious, wouldn't you want to not create a bunch of conflict to see if your husband would reconcile without having his hands ties. I would feel uneasy about his true feelings toward me, if it was not his choice without all the blow up.

 

 

Just by him knowing you know alone should put the fear in him to drop it fast and reconcile.

 

Sadly that is not usually how it works. Ask anyone in an affair. The peaceful status quo just enables the A to continue. And begging or crying doesn't work because it just seals that the BS wants them so much they'll put up with it.

 

Sometimes the only way to wake up a WS is for the BS to expose the secret.

[AnotherSadSong]

Sadly that is not usually how it works. Ask anyone in an affair. The peaceful status quo just enables the A to continue. And begging or crying doesn't work because it just seals that the BS wants them so much they'll put up with it.

 

Sometimes the only way to wake up a WS is for the BS to expose the secret.

 

That wouldn't work for me but it seems for others. He would have to do all the work. I couldn't be with a man if I had to force him to stop. If he continued as many of them do he would be out the door. I would lose any feeling or respect, he would leave himself by the time I was done with him because his esteem and wanker would be tucked between his legs like a dog as he walked out the door.

 

 

So I would leave before then because the whole situation would not be fair for both of us.

[autumnnight]

That wouldn't work for me but it seems for others. He would have to do all the work. I couldn't be with a man if I had to force him to stop. If he continued as many of them do he would be out the door. I would lose any feeling or respect, he would leave himself by the time I was done with him because his esteem and wanker would be tucked between his legs like a dog as he walked out the door.

 

 

So I would leave before then because the whole situation would not be fair for both of us.

 

To be clear, exposure doesn't "force" anything. Have you ever watched the show, Intervention? Sometimes the only way to wake someone up is to have them look what they are doing in the face, with all of its ramifications.

 

At any rate, a BS telling family and friends about an A in order to get the support they so desperately need, or letting a boss know that two of his/her employees are possible squandering company times and resources are not "revenge."

[katielee]

Curious, wouldn't you want to not create a bunch of conflict to see if your husband would reconcile without having his hands ties. I would feel uneasy about his true feelings toward me, if it was not his choice without all the blow up.

 

 

Just by him knowing you know alone should put the fear in him to drop it fast and reconcile.

 

it did put the fear in him to reconcile, but she needed to stay away while he defogged.

She was not a choice, simply a plaything. But if he wanted her, he could have chosen her. Instead he chose a royally pissed woman he had to work hard to reconcile with. Not easy.

[velvette]

Curious, wouldn't you want to not create a bunch of conflict to see if your husband would reconcile without having his hands ties. I would feel uneasy about his true feelings toward me, if it was not his choice without all the blow up.

 

 

Just by him knowing you know alone should put the fear in him to drop it fast and reconcile.

 

 

Your thought process is really odd to me. Every adult I know is doing exactly what they want to do at any given time and making their own choices.

 

 

Exposure is not about putting fear into someone. More about removing the secrecy that allows affair fantasies to thrive.

 

 

The reality is that most MM never intend for an A to survive reality and their reason for being in an A is not to end their marriage. If they wanted to end their M, they would get a D.

[Cloudcuckoo]

Well, you'd be surprised....

 

And es, I can see that if an AP will not go away, then exposure would be a very logical recourse. It would probably be the only one because taking legal action like an R would end up probably making some of it public anyway.

 

I kept a dignified silence throughout the OW's escalated need for revenge on me ( because she viewed me as the obstacle to her happy ever after with my husband).

 

I felt for her, truly, she must have been devastated after the end of her 4 year involvement with him, but in all truth she knew he was married, knew he wasn't leaving, and as has been mentioned elsewhere at times, lived in hope that she could make him change his mind. What a terrible, lonely existence for a woman her age. She only saw him for approximately a month spread over each year.

 

When dday came, she went into overdrive, and the longer our silence the worse it became for a very long time. Until she started contacting our children (they're all older and independent) spewing vitriol about me, my husbands dealings with her, how she was a much better match for him, and on and on...

 

THEN enough. I involved the authorities. Not out of any twisted sense of revenge, I actually was concerned that she'd lost her mind over it all, but to protect my family. We lost our dear retriever in first year post dday. He'd been given rat poison in meat. The other woman had been witnessed at our address while we were at work. She was subsequently arrested (she'd travelled 360 miles from her home to ours that day) and prosecuted.

 

I still don't have any need for 'revenge' to this day, and we still get the odd 'hang up' call. I don't need to do anything, she's demonstrated all on her own that she found it enormously difficult to face the reality.

[AnotherSadSong]

Your thought process is really odd to me. Every adult I know is doing exactly what they want to do at any given time and making their own choices.

 

 

Exposure is not about putting fear into someone. More about removing the secrecy that allows affair fantasies to thrive.

 

 

The reality is that most MM never intend for an A to survive reality and their reason for being in an A is not to end their marriage. If they wanted to end their M, they would get a D.

 

 

This is true. It would be nice to for more women to beware of the great lengths a man will go to lie. My advice now for any woman who has a man chasing her that seems all that and a bag of chips, who is swearing he is done with the marriage, separated, in house separation, and all that jazz is simply to ask, okay you have an attorney.

 

 

If he does not, then tell him to contact you when he does and because you know men lie (He will put up with this if he interested enough) then you would like a short call to his attorney (with his permission) to confirm this. And the call would only be a simple question, no specific details of the split.

 

 

But what he may not know and I have seen, is a lawyer, (moreso if you have a family that is well known, or lawyers or judges in the family) especially if there is a lot of bad and messy in the divorce, extreme baggage, the attorney may say on a side note, gotta tell you stay out of this one or stay away.....warning.

[autumnnight]

I kept a dignified silence throughout the OW's escalated need for revenge on me ( because she viewed me as the obstacle to her happy ever after with my husband).

 

I felt for her, truly, she must have been devastated after the end of her 4 year involvement with him, but in all truth she knew he was married, knew he wasn't leaving, and as has been mentioned elsewhere at times, lived in hope that she could make him change his mind. What a terrible, lonely existence for a woman her age. She only saw him for approximately a month spread over each year.

 

When dday came, she went into overdrive, and the longer our silence the worse it became for a very long time. Until she started contacting our children (they're all older and independent) spewing vitriol about me, my husbands dealings with her, how she was a much better match for him, and on and on...

 

THEN enough. I involved the authorities. Not out of any twisted sense of revenge, I actually was concerned that she'd lost her mind over it all, but to protect my family. We lost our dear retriever in first year post dday. He'd been given rat poison in meat. The other woman had been witnessed at our address while we were at work. She was subsequently arrested (she'd travelled 360 miles from her home to ours that day) and prosecuted.

 

I still don't have any need for 'revenge' to this day, and we still get the odd 'hang up' call. I don't need to do anything, she's demonstrated all on her own that she found it enormously difficult to face the reality.

 

Oh my goodness....how awful.

 

As the BW, you had every right to expose her, expose him, and take action. Because it was your real face to face life that was drastically affected.

[Cloudcuckoo]

Oh my goodness....how awful.

 

As the BW, you had every right to expose her, expose him, and take action. Because it was your real face to face life that was drastically affected.

 

Agreed Autumn, I could have taken my revenge and exacted it as viciously as she I suppose, but what good would that have done? The woman was beside herself when my husband ended her vision of walking off into the sunset with him, that much was blatantly obvious at dday. She was demented. I couldn't be cruel.

 

My husband was not only dealing with a demented other woman (despite a no contact letter, phone call and email, she continued to turn up at hotels and airports when he was either going to work or returning, begging him to change his mind. We later discovered she had hacked his email account and had access to everything. Including his itinerary), but also a wife experiencing a major breakdown as a result of his behaviour.

 

As for him, I outed his shenanigans to everyone I knew. I left no stone unturned. Not as revenge, but to reveal the kind of man my husband had become to those who considered he was the same honourable person they had always known. Most were terribly shocked.