Consensus - Marriage unhealthy if partner in affair

[autumnnight]

I think part of the reason it elicits such primal responses is that there is a fear that if we admit a marriage had problems, that somehow absolves the WS.

 

It doesn't. I mean, a person who robs a grocery store might need food, but we don't deny that he is still a thief. If a man who needs money robs a bank, we do not assume it wasn't his own choice to go in their with a mask and hold up the place. Because hungry or broke, we all know there are options BESIDES stealing.

 

It is the same with an A. Yes, the3re are people who cheat who are miserable in their marriages. Yes, there ARE. And they would even say that is what "motivated" them to cheat.

 

Thing is, there ARE other options besides cheating to deal with a miserable marriage. Are they always easy or pleasant? No. But they are more ethical. The only time I think that it MAY be a bit more understandable is if someone grows up in a really legalistic background where they have been convinced that in some twisted way divorce would be "worse" than cheating. But even then, we have brains. We have a conscience.

 

I think it is pretty fair to say that when someone cheats it is a sign that THEY are not healthy at the time. However, a terrible marriage may have contributed to their unhealthiness. It still doesn't justify cheating.

 

Personally, I have never understood why it is so hard to recognize those two things simultaneously. Even if I AM a crappy, neglectful, clueless spouse, that doesn't mean it is my FAULT my SO chose to betray me. It may mean I hurt him and helped to make him lonely and vulnerable. But the cheating is all on him.

[velvette]

I think part of the reason it elicits such primal responses is that there is a fear that if we admit a marriage had problems, that somehow absolves the WS.

 

It doesn't. I mean, a person who robs a grocery store might need food, but we don't deny that he is still a thief. If a man who needs money robs a bank, we do not assume it wasn't his own choice to go in their with a mask and hold up the place. Because hungry or broke, we all know there are options BESIDES stealing.

 

It is the same with an A. Yes, the3re are people who cheat who are miserable in their marriages. Yes, there ARE. And they would even say that is what "motivated" them to cheat.

 

Thing is, there ARE other options besides cheating to deal with a miserable marriage. Are they always easy or pleasant? No. But they are more ethical. The only time I think that it MAY be a bit more understandable is if someone grows up in a really legalistic background where they have been convinced that in some twisted way divorce would be "worse" than cheating. But even then, we have brains. We have a conscience.

 

I think it is pretty fair to say that when someone cheats it is a sign that THEY are not healthy at the time. However, a terrible marriage may have contributed to their unhealthiness. It still doesn't justify cheating.

 

Personally, I have never understood why it is so hard to recognize those two things simultaneously. Even if I AM a crappy, neglectful, clueless spouse, that doesn't mean it is my FAULT my SO chose to betray me. It may mean I hurt him and helped to make him lonely and vulnerable. But the cheating is all on him.

 

 

I understand what you are saying, but I have never met anyone that the bolded really applied to. Perhaps they are out there an they can chime in.

 

 

My reaction to it is simply based on the fact that it is a false premise.

 

 

My husband cheated in his first M and his M with me. If we had split up, I have no doubt he would have cheated in any subsequent relationship. That was his way(as it is for many) of coping with HIS issues.

 

 

Did we have problems in our marriage. Yes. Primarily because of his issues that he brought into the marriage and/or my reaction to them.

 

 

Once he fixed HIS issues, all the issues he said he had with me went away.

 

 

Someone who is clueless to their own issues or actively resisting dealing with them may say a bad marriage motivated them to cheat. But just because they say that doesn't mean it is true.

 

 

Lots (I happen to believe most, but your mileage may vary) are cheating as self medication caused by their own unhappiness related to their issues.

 

 

I know that there is nothing I could have done, no way I could have changed myself that would have altered the course of my M until my H decided to confront HIS issue of childhood sexual abuse. He did not want to do that, understandably. He had to walk through hell to save himself and our marriage.

 

 

Here's the primal part of my reaction........those of us that have held the hand of or stood by our wounded spouse who walked through hell to reclaim themselves and our marriages, are offended by people trivializing that with psychobabble. We are not threatened, we are offended when people who don't have a clue what they are talking about spout nonsense.

[Robert]

*****Moderators Note*****

 

Let's keep the posts helpful and not hurtful please, they seem to have dipped on occasion to taking pokes rather than rendering advice.

[dreamingoftigers]

I understand what you are saying, but I have never met anyone that the bolded really applied to. Perhaps they are out there an they can chime in.

 

 

My reaction to it is simply based on the fact that it is a false premise.

 

 

My husband cheated in his first M and his M with me. If we had split up, I have no doubt he would have cheated in any subsequent relationship. That was his way(as it is for many) of coping with HIS issues.

 

 

Did we have problems in our marriage. Yes. Primarily because of his issues that he brought into the marriage and/or my reaction to them.

 

Once he fixed HIS issues, all the issues he said he had with me went away.

 

 

Someone who is clueless to their own issues or actively resisting dealing with them may say a bad marriage motivated them to cheat. But just because they say that doesn't mean it is true.

 

Lots (I happen to believe most, but your mileage may vary) are cheating as self medication caused by their own unhappiness related to their issues.

 

 

I know that there is nothing I could have done, no way I could have changed myself that would have altered the course of my M until my H decided to confront HIS issue of childhood sexual abuse. He did not want to do that, understandably. He had to walk through hell to save himself and our marriage.

 

 

Here's the primal part of my reaction........those of us that have held the hand of or stood by our wounded spouse who walked through hell to reclaim themselves and our marriages, are offended by people trivializing that with psychobabble. We are not threatened, we are offended when people who don't have a clue what they are talking about spout nonsense.

 

The bolded applies to me as well.

 

It is very annoying when even a "female who has no experience with infidelity, and therefore no dog in the fight" is cited as an expert of sorts.

[Got it]

Most of us know that you couldn't find 50 people to agree on the meaning of a simple human action much less a complex human action.

 

 

All you are seeing is that people don't like to be bullS***ed.

 

I also think it is rude to insinuate someone is lying. I have no issue with the premise that 50 mental health providers felt that one way. I am sure that in some way that could happen - i.e. not completely outside the realm of possibility. But I don't necessary agree with them on it.

[Giggle]

My ex had an affair and left me for her. Yes he had issues but we didn't have a great marriage. Though actually ours was better than my bff's. We had crappy communication. If he had tried talking to me about it rather than stepping out, it maybe could have been fixed. I'm not blaming the marriage, but putting all the blame in his lap is just silly. Initial anger and hurt had the blame all on him. It took growing up to see how broken our marriage had been.

 

Another broken marriage didn't cause either one of us to cheat. Choice definitely. BUT there is something wrong if they are choosing it.

[Furious]

Yep. The "great relationship" is the affair

 

That's interesting. Being affair positive, how does that relate to the affair your husband's ex wife had with him and their subsequent marriage?

[cocorico]

That's interesting. Being affair positive, how does that relate to the affair your husband's ex wife had with him and their subsequent marriage?

 

That was what she claimed. That her M sucked, and her A gave her life meaning. At least, that's what her letters and journals of the time stated. That is the only evidence I have to go on - I wasn't there, and it was over 40 years ago so I doubt anyone would remember too clearly if asked now.

[cocorico]

Most of us know that you couldn't find 50 people to agree on the meaning of a simple human action much less a complex human action.

 

Esther Perel, on her website (not sure if linking would be allowed) refers to that view - that As are a symptom of bad relationships - as being the prevailing orthodoxy in the profession, so I don't find it at all surprising that 50 random members of a profession whose prevailing orthodoxy says X agree with X.

 

If you put 50 random medical microbiologists in a room, they'd also agree that HIV caused AIDS, despite that being a "complex" phenomenon, too. Likewise with climate change, or evolution.

[cocorico]

The bolded applies to me as well.

 

It is very annoying when even a "female who has no experience with infidelity, and therefore no dog in the fight" is cited as an expert of sorts.

 

So you if you had a brain tumour, you would not go to a brain surgeon unless s/he had personally had a brain tumour? 0_o

[dreamingoftigers]

So you if you had a brain tumour, you would not go to a brain surgeon unless s/he had personally had a brain tumour? 0_o

 

Unhealthy relationships are the choices of at least one person involved in a relationship.

 

Anyone who can't understand the basic function and premise of how a relationship is formed by two people's choices is not someone I would consider an expert on relationships. Someone lacking any experience with infidelity or dealing with it, simply does not have the background. It would be the equivalent of asking random people on the street their opinion on my province's politics. If they don't live here and aren't particularly interested in having an informed opinion on my area's politics.......of what value is that opinion?

 

It would be like going to a Proctologist to get a brain tumor removed.

 

Or someone else that clearly lacked the basic sense and training to deal with a brain tumor.

 

Sure, they might be great at dealing with asses, but that doesn't mean that they should automatically be counted as qualified enough to get into my skull.

[Furious]

Yep. The "great relationship" is the affair

 

If an an affair is the great relationship you claim how do you reconcile that claim while the "affair" between your husband and his ex wife was a disaster?

[Furious]

That was what she claimed. That her M sucked, and her A gave her life meaning. At least, that's what her letters and journals of the time stated. That is the only evidence I have to go on - I wasn't there, and it was over 40 years ago so I doubt anyone would remember too clearly if asked now.

 

But....this is a diversion that the affair is the "real" relationship as you previously stated.

[purplesorrow]

Esther Perel, on her website (not sure if linking would be allowed) refers to that view - that As are a symptom of bad relationships - as being the prevailing orthodoxy in the profession, so I don't find it at all surprising that 50 random members of a profession whose prevailing orthodoxy says X agree with X.

 

If you put 50 random medical microbiologists in a room, they'd also agree that HIV caused AIDS, despite that being a "complex" phenomenon, too. Likewise with climate change, or evolution.

 

She's also published many articles that people in happy marriages also cheat. Maybe your husband's marriage wasn't good, it doesn't mean that all marriages where there was infidelity was that way. There are no absolutes.

[cocorico]

She's also published many articles that people in happy marriages also cheat. Maybe your husband's marriage wasn't good, it doesn't mean that all marriages where there was infidelity was that way. There are no absolutes.

 

She characterised the view as stated as an orthodoxy. I did not claim that she subscribed to the orthodoxy herself - she doesn't, as per her forthcoming book - but my point was, if it is an orthodoxy (as portrayed) it is not unreasonable to find a room full of random practitioners who subscribe to that view.

[cocorico]

Unhealthy relationships are the choices of at least one person involved in a relationship.

 

Anyone who can't understand the basic function and premise of how a relationship is formed by two people's choices is not someone I would consider an expert on relationships. Someone lacking any experience with infidelity or dealing with it, simply does not have the background. It would be the equivalent of asking random people on the street their opinion on my province's politics. If they don't live here and aren't particularly interested in having an informed opinion on my area's politics.......of what value is that opinion?

 

It would be like going to a Proctologist to get a brain tumor removed.

 

Or someone else that clearly lacked the basic sense and training to deal with a brain tumor.

 

Sure, they might be great at dealing with asses, but that doesn't mean that they should automatically be counted as qualified enough to get into my skull.

 

Brain surgeons are trained professionally to remove brain tumours. There is no professional requirement of them to have, or to have had, brain tumours themselves. Likewise, doctors treat many conditions without having had the condition themselves. Similarly, mental health professionals are not required to have had the conditions they treat - that is the point of their professional training.

[cocorico]

If an an affair is the great relationship you claim how do you reconcile that claim while the "affair" between your husband and his ex wife was a disaster?

 

That was what she claimed. That her M sucked, and her A gave her life meaning. At least, that's what her letters and journals of the time stated. That is the only evidence I have to go on - I wasn't there, and it was over 40 years ago so I doubt anyone would remember too clearly if asked now.

 

But....this is a diversion that the affair is the "real" relationship as you previously stated.

 

As is evident from my post (quoted above) I did not claim that the A between my H and his xW was a "disaster". Other than yourself, I'm not sure who did. Certainly, his xW did not, as I reported.

 

I have no idea what "diversion" you are referring to. You asked how I reconciled my claim that the A was great, with my H's xW's A with her fAP (now my H) being "a disaster". No one but yourself has claimed it was a disaster, so I have nothing to reconcile.

[Furious]

Because the dysfunctionality suited the other partner? Certainly that was the case in my H's M with the xBW. It suited her down to the ground, which is why she was adamant it was so great, no problems, no need for MC...

 

 

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[autumnnight]

I think we also have to remember that "my marriage" does not necessarily generalize to all marriages or even most marriages. I am certain lots of people who cheat had great marriages and awesome spouses. Like it or not, I'm fairly certain there are lots of people who cheated who DID indeed have miserable marriages and lazy, crap spouses.

 

Neither case justifies cheating; however, ignoring either truth is just plain intentional blindness.

[goodyblue]

Well, if it wasn't unhealthy before the affair,, it certainly would be classified as such during and after the affair.

[purplesorrow]

Well, if it wasn't unhealthy before the affair,, it certainly would be classified as such during and after the affair.

 

I think that is a given, but this discussion was about the marriage causing the affair. He was himself until the last couple months of his affair. And his affair indeed destroyed our marriage and led to divorce.

[dreamingoftigers]

Brain surgeons are trained professionally to remove brain tumours. There is no professional requirement of them to have, or to have had, brain tumours themselves. Likewise, doctors treat many conditions without having had the condition themselves. Similarly, mental health professionals are not required to have had the conditions they treat - that is the point of their professional training.

 

But they would have training and experience regarding the subject!

 

It was said, clearly that she had not had experience with it and had "no dog in the fight."

 

I regard that as an uninformed opinion.

[goodyblue]

I think that is a given, but this discussion was about the marriage causing the affair. He was himself until the last couple months of his affair. And his affair indeed destroyed our marriage and led to divorce.

 

Yeah... I.just kind of.think it.is.impossible to have a functioning, happy relationship.with someone who.is in a dysfunctional place in their life. A person is not perfectly happy, highly functioning.and then just has an affair, i truly.dont bdlieve it happens that way. Either the marriage was a mess or the cheater is a mess, either way, the relationship is bad.

[cocorico]

But they would have training and experience regarding the subject!

 

It was said, clearly that she had not had experience with it and had "no dog in the fight."

 

I regard that as an uninformed opinion.

 

Brain surgeons are not required to have *personal* experience of brain tumours, only professional experience - as was clearly stated to be the case in this situation:

 

I should also mention, the professional (Psychologist) who said the initial comment was a female with absolutely no personal experience with infidelity, only professional, so, only seeing it objectively, no dog in the fight for her.

 

 

...and:

 

 

These are people who are working with people daily. Couples and married partners and families. They KNOW what they are talking about, they are seeing it and experiencing it on a daily basis. And not personally, there is no bias. They are seeing it professionally, unbiased, from an objective point of view, it is their job and they are trained to do so.

 

[cocorico]

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