Consensus - Marriage unhealthy if partner in affair

[autumnnight]

My immediate thought is that the "expert" who said the above quote is either living in denial or truly doesn't see the world as it really is.

 

My take is that it was written by a cheater or AP who doesn't have the backbone to admit their crappy choice is in direct opposition to mainstream and accepted morality and values.

[purplesorrow]

I'd send them to a decent counsellor to help them understand what a healthy R **really** was.

 

He has been for two years. Surprise...he was in a solid relationship. One of those 'experts' said so.

[purplesorrow]

Your questions was what would you say to a WS that says they are happy in their marriage and with their spouse but still cheated or is still cheating?

 

What I (ME, RIRI) would say is that if you are cheating something is missing inside YOU, if something is missing within you, you can't be truly happy and at peace with yourself...if you can't be truly happy and at peace with YOURSELF first, then how can you be truly happy and at peace in ALL aspects of your life, inclusing your marriage and spouse?

 

You seem to be eluding to just any old random personal issue but I think we have all gathered that the issues that MOST not all cheaters have are self-esteem issues, self worth issues, entitlement issues, narcissitic traits, conflict avoiding....ALL those issues are deep and certainly bleed into ALL areas of life.

 

And that last questions you asked " Who is happy with everything all the time?" is moot! We all know people would rather put on their happy face and pretend to be happy then walk around broadcasting their issues.

 

Evident by facebook....no one ever gets on there and tells the world " I have low self esteem and my communication with my spouse sucks"! NO! They put their happiest moments and happiest faces.

 

Point is if your issues prevent you from loving you, then they prevent you from ever loving and treating another person right. And if you can't love and treat another person right... Because sooner or later the inabilites to love yourself and others will surface...at that time then is it truly happy?

Sigh...ok. I am a continuous work in progress. There is always something I can improve. Life has ups and downs. I'm not perfect but that never meant I wasn't capable of loving and being loved. I have never posted on facebook so I can't comment on that. My point was everyone's situation is different. It is viewed differently by those involved. There is no one size fits all. If a person feels they were happy, how is it my place or yours to tell them they aren't?

[anika99]

My immediate thought is that the "expert" who said the above quote is either living in denial or truly doesn't see the world as it really is. Human beings can do the dumbest things to mess up the "good things" that we have in our lives. We do it all the time and it's because we have something called a "fallen nature" (call it "self-centered" if that's more palpable for you). Not everything we do is a "defense mechanism" designed to ignore an underlying issue. The most troubling part of this whole report is that 50 "behavioral experts" all agree that the wife should not be told two years later. Really? Wouldn't the admission actually be the first step in fixing the marriage that they say is actually "broken" because the guy had an affair in the first place. Am I the only guy who actually understands what guys are like???

 

So true. In my twenties and early thirties I was the queen of self sabotage. I never married but if I had married young I was totally the type that would have left a good stable healthy marriage to chase excitement and passion with a bad boy. As it was my bf's were mainly the bad boy type and I routinely passed up offers to have good relationships with good stable men because of my own dysfunctions.

 

This is the result of a philosophy that denies the spiritual aspect of what it means to be human. I personally believe that there is a God who Created all things and who has a will for my life. He calls me into a relationship with Himself and asks me to live a lifestyle that reflects His nature in my world. Even if you don't believe that, however, almost every single person alive in the world today has an innate sense of right and wrong (those who don't are called "Psychopaths" which is a recognized behavioral malady), and even though we have this sense of right and wrong we continually do things opposed to what we know (or feel) to be right. Alas - we call that the human nature.

 

 

That self entitled attitude just seems to go along with cheating. People will even go so far as to say that their affair is blessed by God because the affair makes them happy and God loves them and wants them to be happy. LOL. As if God is happy to see people hurt and betrayed, children's homes broken up or rife with lies and pain.

 

My favorite part of that experts quote is this, "or, they are just absolutely unaware of what good actually means." I laugh out loud! You know what we need? An "expert" in human behavior to tell us what good actually means! A person who probably believes in relativism and thinks that good is only determined by the person themselves. In other words, if I want to have an affair than it's good for me and how dare you tell me that it's not. Who cares how many people it impacts because the only person who matters is me! Ohhhh, I could go on, but I relent. I am a man who destroyed every good thing he ever had because he ignored the warnings of his spiritual side. I hope to help as many people as possible avoid what I have experienced. Thank God for His mercy!

 

I don't believe any expert actually said that. It just sounds so uneducated and short sighted.

Edited March 26, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Editorial commentary redacted and quotes fixed

[beach]

My guess is the statement would have been more accurate if displayed as:

 

If partner is cheating - that partner is broken. Adding a broken partner into any marriage makes it nearly impossible to fix that marriage.

 

So the result is a broken marriage based on one partner being broken/selfish/self centered/egotistical/narcissistic.

 

 

Of course folks can pretend to be happy in the M - and the years roll by. But we all know the amount of folks that stay when they aren't happy at all is very high.

 

 

Really any "poll" can be skewed to suit the intended outcome. I don't put much merit in polls.

[Arieswoman]

Poppy47,

Post #36 - I am sorry that you were put in that situation through no fault of your own.

 

As I understand it, if you husband was diagnosed with dementia and was subject to a Deprivation of Liberty Order ( UK ) then legally you had did not have a marriage. Your husband, through no fault of his own, was unable to follow through with his obligations in that area therefore I believe that the marriage could have been annulled.

 

I don't think your situation can be compared to those who have a spouse who is Compus Mentus, yet decide, for their own reasons, to cheat.

[SolG]

As a nerdy xOW, I have at this point read approximately five million hundred and twelve texts on infidelity (okay, maybe I exaggerate... take a million off that estimate). And I'm not talking mass market self help books, but everything up to and including post-graduate level required text books for therapists.

 

Pretty much all the theorists agree that there is usually a level of dissatisfaction with the marital relationship before a WS decides to indulge in an affair. Glass (everybody's fav on LS) in her research put the figures at about 66 per cent for women, and 30 per cent for men. And in the course of therapy, these percentages escalate as the marriage as a system is explored with the couple in question.

 

However... dissatisfaction with the primary relationship (read: some form of dysfunction) is a precursor, or predictor of infidelity. It is not a cause. This distinction is important. And again, this is something that most of the theorists agree.

 

To better illustrate, think of domestic violence. There is undoubtedly dysfunction in relationships in which domestic violence manifests. But do we say that the dysfunction causes one spouse to beat the other? We can say that they collude, or contribute to a context that makes it more likely or even probable... But it would be ludicrous to suggest that he/she is responsible in some way for the actual act of the other spouse choosing to beat him/her.

 

To give a more ludicrous, but apt metaphor... Think of someone who is really cold in the depths of winter and then decides that the appropriate response to set their bed on fire. Yes there is cold, and yes someone decides to set a bed on fire. But one is not the cause of the other as the latter is clearly an illogical and destructive response to the former.

 

And so it is with infidelity. Both spouses are responsible for the marital context, but it is only one that chooses to cheat. And that spouse is accountable for his/her actions as a distinct event.

 

We are really talking about two coexisting issues; one is the state of the marriage, the other the WS's choice to cheat. Comorbid... yet also entirely separate.

[autumnnight]

As a nerdy xOW, I have at this point read approximately five million hundred and twelve texts on infidelity (okay, maybe I exaggerate... take a million off that estimate). And I'm not talking mass market self help books, but everything up to and including post-graduate level required text books for therapists.

 

Pretty much all the theorists agree that there is usually a level of dissatisfaction with the marital relationship before a WS decides to indulge in an affair. Glass (everybody's fav on LS) in her research put the figures at about 66 per cent for women, and 30 per cent for men. And in the course of therapy, these percentages escalate as the marriage as a system is explored with the couple in question.

 

However... dissatisfaction with the primary relationship (read: some form of dysfunction) is a precursor, or predictor of infidelity. It is not a cause. This distinction is important. And again, this is something that most of the theorists agree.

 

To better illustrate, think of domestic violence. There is undoubtedly dysfunction in relationships in which domestic violence manifests. But do we say that the dysfunction causes one spouse to beat the other? We can say that they collude, or contribute to a context that makes it more likely or even probable... But it would be ludicrous to suggest that he/she is responsible in some way for the actual act of the other spouse choosing to beat him/her.

 

To give a more ludicrous, but apt metaphor... Think of someone who is really cold in the depths of winter and then decides that the appropriate response to set their bed on fire. Yes there is cold, and yes someone decides to set a bed on fire. But one is not the cause of the other as the latter is clearly an illogical and destructive response to the former.

 

And so it is with infidelity. Both spouses are responsible for the marital context, but it is only one that chooses to cheat. And that spouse is accountable for his/her actions as a distinct event.

 

We are really talking about two coexisting issues; one is the state of the marriage, the other the WS's choice to cheat. Comorbid... yet also entirely separate.

 

In other words, no matter how unhappy the WS may be or how bad they TELL the AP the marriage is, neither of them have a moral excuse to lie, cheat and betray. That ultimately is a reflection f THEIR chosen character and not the M.

[Arieswoman]

This ,

 

In other words, no matter how unhappy the WS may be or how bad they TELL the AP the marriage is, neither of them have a moral excuse to lie, cheat and betray. That ultimately is a reflection of THEIR chosen character and not the M.

 

 

absolutely.

[truncated]

The theory presented by the op is really quite ironic.

 

it's a coping mechanism espoused by those who can't face the truth that someone who cheats does so because of issues within themselves.

 

Sure, some people who cheat have a bad marriage, but one does not cause the other. There are many who are in bad marriages who never cheat.

 

|when someone cheats, it is because something in them, for whatever reason, believes that it's okay, otherwise, they wouldn't do it. There can be a million reasons why they may feel it's okay, but ultimately, they made the decision they did.

 

 

One more point to ponder. How many times has it been said that human beings are not , by nature, monogamous creatures ( i disagree) and that it is not part of human nature to stay faithful to one partner throughout their life?

 

If this is the case, then how does cheating equate to a bad marriage? If one agrees that humans are not monogamous, they they could well cheat no matter how great their marriage was or how happy they might be.

[elaine567]

I think we all get individual responsibility and choices made.

 

However, cheating is very common. It is said 45% of women and 55% of men admit to having committed adultery. So it is not as if cheaters are a rare breed.

IMO, some are going to be people who do not believe in monogamy, some are going to be born cheaters, some are going to cheat due to bad marriages/relationships and some are going to cheat due to personal issues.

 

I do believe that given the right circumstances, just about anyone has the capacity to cheat and I believe the health of the marriage plays a large part in the decision to cheat or not.

People in healthy marriages talk and solve problems, those in unhealthy marriages avoid problems and rug sweep. I am not surprised that the %s of marital dissatisfaction escalated when couples involved in cheating went into therapy. Many will have ignored the gaping holes in their marriages prior to the cheating event. They only thought they were in good marriages; they were obviously wrong.

 

I think many stuck in marriages that are not "doing it for them" for whatever reason, will cheat given the opportunity.

Many are too involved in the marriage to consider divorce or separation and cheating is a viable alternative; that is why they do it. That is why approximately 50% admit to cheating in studies.

It is balancing act, cheating vs the consequences of getting caught, and for many cheating wins.

[waterwoman]

Ha! Well if it wasn't unhealthy before the affair, it certainly is afterwards.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Trident could only find 4 out of 5 dentists that would recommend sugar-free gum.

 

You found 50 out of 50 Doctors that agree with you!!!!!

 

And you didn't even have to pay them!!!!

 

Personally, I will have to "chew" on your stats a bit.....to see if any "cavities" appear.

[misty12]

I had EA's. My marriage was broken and dysfunctional. But I was too...I have poor boundaries and even worse coping skills. It's usually a combination of multiple factors.

[autumnnight]

I had EA's. My marriage was broken and dysfunctional. But I was too...I have poor boundaries and even worse coping skills. It's usually a combination of multiple factors.

 

Marriage problems can have multiple factors.

 

Cheating is a choice.

[AmyBamy]

Haven't had a chance to look through this yet, but I should state, it isn't made up, lol. It really did happen. I wasn't participating in the discussion, just listening because I didn't want to influence its direction. I was curious as to how many professionals would agree with one person's statement - and sat and watched curiously as they all agreed. Not one single professional disagreed with the premise that "people don't cheat in good marriages".

 

These are people who are working with people daily. Couples and married partners and families. They KNOW what they are talking about, they are seeing it and experiencing it on a daily basis. And not personally, there is no bias. They are seeing it professionally, unbiased, from an objective point of view, it is their job and they are trained to do so.

 

I'm sorry it seems to have hit a nerve with so many people here. My intention was to show a consensus on a heated topic that often appears on this forum. I have always said that if a partner steps out, the marriage is broken. I didn't get into why the marriage is broken in this discussion, but that has always been my firm stance because it is what I have seen over and over again in a professional capacity. I've yet to see someone step out on a healthy marriage, ever.

 

Anyway, the discussion was interesting, and I wish I could have transcripted it to share, but it was happening in real time and I don't know shorthand, lol. So, I shared the consensus because it was very interesting, and I purposely did not influence the discussion because I wanted to see where it went. And where it went is exactly where I thought it would go. So, validated? Yes, absolutely. But it wasn't anything that I didn't already know, but thought that it would be useful to others here who might not have access to a room of mental health professionals discussing affairs.

[AmyBamy]

I should also mention, the professional (Psychologist) who said the initial comment was a female with absolutely no personal experience with infidelity, only professional, so, only seeing it objectively, no dog in the fight for her. That's why I kept quiet until the end when I mentioned the whole subset of people who think the person is broken.

 

I can agree with the chicken and the egg thing, maybe. I never said that there aren't some people who will just always step out - but I do say that there are far more who only step out when they feel like they have no other option for any happiness at all.

 

Good discussion though, aside from those who took it personally and got defensive and hateful. I really wish I could have recorded the conversation, I think sometimes the painful truth is hard to take. I know that when I found out my ex husband was having an affair I was shocked to learn that he was that unhappy. I knew we weren't happy, but I never thought he was that unhappy and it took a while for me to come to terms with it. I think some of you will come to the truth later, but for now, I understand why you resist it. Hang in there, it gets so much better as time goes on.

[cocorico]

If my H was unfaithful, it would be a clear indicator to me that our M was broken. I don't know why that notion should be so threatening. There are many possible causes of a marriage becoming unhealthy - it is not a de facto indictment of the BS.

[dreamingoftigers]

I should also mention, the professional (Psychologist) who said the initial comment was a female with absolutely no personal experience with infidelity, only professional, so, only seeing it objectively, no dog in the fight for her. That's why I kept quiet until the end when I mentioned the whole subset of people who think the person is broken.

 

I can agree with the chicken and the egg thing, maybe. I never said that there aren't some people who will just always step out - but I do say that there are far more who only step out when they feel like they have no other option for any happiness at all.

 

Good discussion though, aside from those who took it personally and got defensive and hateful. I really wish I could have recorded the conversation, I think sometimes the painful truth is hard to take. I know that when I found out my ex husband was having an affair I was shocked to learn that he was that unhappy. I knew we weren't happy, but I never thought he was that unhappy and it took a while for me to come to terms with it. I think some of you will come to the truth later, but for now, I understand why you resist it. Hang in there, it gets so much better as time goes on.

 

How condescending.

 

Anyhow.

 

I used to think like you, "that it must be something wrong with the BS, or the marriage or the WS wouldn't have stepped out."

 

You should come over and meet my father.

 

My mother was a gorgeous young woman whose only crime was aging.

And rather decently at that.

Unfortunately I inherited more of his characteristics, like the Neanderthal eyebrows and overall hairiness. Arg. I could kill my mother for marrying an Italian-mixed man.

 

They have been together over 40 years.

My mother's primary job was maintaining that marriage and they are so close I would say that it is practically enmeshed.

 

My father had a four-month affair six years ago that I caught offhandedly.

Changed my worldview completely.

 

Had they grown apart? Was my father "unhappy"? Was their marriage "bad" or "toxic"? Only the parts my Dad put in with his childhood issues.

 

And his entitlement plus a mid-life crisis.

He was approached by the mistress in his home office. It started right there, evolved very quickly and fizzled at D-Day. How do I know? You don't want to know.

 

My mother actually asked me to do some monitoring because she knew that she knew next to nothing about any of those things.

 

I even found out about the car he was about to buy the mistress. Even met the mistress. That's where I drew the line. It was past the point of unhealthy for me being their daughter. But I can understand my mother's fear and anger. And rather short on folks she could trust to not be particularly loyal to my Dad.

 

Was their marriage "not a good one"?

 

For the four months he was stepping out and the couple of years of broken trust afterward... no it wasn't good.

 

Otherwise, he really had no complaints himself. And seriously, he would complain if he did. He has a way of getting rid of people he doesn't want around. If he didn't want my mother around, he would take care of that in short order. Instead, he took his name off of the house title as a gesture of trust. Something I actually recently verified in my line of work.

 

The one thing that stood out to me though was that this was only my father's second "partner." He had only ever been with my Mom since they met when he was 17 and my Mom was 19. I don't in any way excuse him, but I can see the curiosity being a factor.

[velvette]

If my H was unfaithful, it would be a clear indicator to me that our M was broken. I don't know why that notion should be so threatening. There are many possible causes of a marriage becoming unhealthy - it is not a de facto indictment of the BS.

 

 

I'm not threatened by the concept of a broken marriage. Lots of broken things can be repaired.

 

 

However, I do find incompetent mental health professionals dangerous both to individual mental health and the health of relationships.

 

 

The psychiatric profession has a long history of abusive and dangerous and even life threatening "remedies". They like to present themselves as scientists, but there is little scientific or based on proven success with what many of them espouse.

 

 

This thread is an example. That being said, I have a feeling Amy slanted the whole conversation to her agenda so we really don't know all the details of the case study or the marriage/man being discussed.

 

 

It is a valuable thread for the purpose of reminding people they need to be very careful in selecting a mental health professional.

[dreamingoftigers]

I'm not threatened by the concept of a broken marriage. Lots of broken things can be repaired.

 

 

However, I do find incompetent mental health professionals dangerous both to individual mental health and the health of relationships.

 

 

The psychiatric profession has a long history of abusive and dangerous and even life threatening "remedies". They like to present themselves as scientists, but there is little scientific or based on proven success with what many of them espouse.

 

 

This thread is an example. That being said, I have a feeling Amy slanted the whole conversation to her agenda so we really don't know all the details of the case study or the marriage/man being discussed.

 

 

It is a valuable thread for the purpose of reminding people they need to be very careful in selecting a mental health professional.

 

I have dealt with two "drug-pusher" psychiatrists personally.

 

One nearly put my husband in an early grave.

 

Another counselor we had was VERY unethical.

 

I have also worked in group homes, had my brother become brain injured due to a physician error..........

 

Both of my siblings are autistic and so I have dealt extensively with the medical/mental health professions most of my life. Including two legal battles.

 

I have come to the conclusion that while a large percentage of the medical industry is good for the life-saving basics, another large percentage is overrun, overrtired to the point of burnout, many "care facilities" are nothing more than glorified, over-medicated storage for the disabled. Supported by a self-serving bureaucracy.

 

And finally, many people who enter into the "helping" professions often entered because "they were troubled and someone helped them' or "it's good to help and I am a good, helping person." The problem is, the person who was troubled and got help may still not see their very dangerous pathology to help is actually knee-capping people. As well, many have very limited experience in resolving root issues or even understanding root issues from anything more than a basic CBT-based ideal.

 

To be completely blunt and honest, I find more psychiatrists in particular to be not well-adjusted and concerning that I would find in the general population. There is something about the career in itself (perhaps the $$, it is a top paying specialty) that attracts the wrong type of person OR creates it's own monsters. I suspect many are actually sociopaths.

[eye of the storm]

When my exH cheated on me, yes our marriage was toxic. But the toxic marriage was not the reason he cheated. If that was the reason to cheat, I would have been cheating for years.

 

 

My MM says his marriage is good. He has stated that he just likes OW.

 

 

You can't blame a marriage if one partner drinks or gambles. It is all on that person. Just like stepping out on their marriage. It is a failing of the person, not the marriage.

 

 

Of course, this is just my personal opinion.

[velvette]

I have dealt with two "drug-pusher" psychiatrists personally.

 

One nearly put my husband in an early grave.

 

Another counselor we had was VERY unethical.

 

I have also worked in group homes, had my brother become brain injured due to a physician error..........

 

Both of my siblings are autistic and so I have dealt extensively with the medical/mental health professions most of my life. Including two legal battles.

 

I have come to the conclusion that while a large percentage of the medical industry is good for the life-saving basics, another large percentage is overrun, overrtired to the point of burnout, many "care facilities" are nothing more than glorified, over-medicated storage for the disabled. Supported by a self-serving bureaucracy.

 

And finally, many people who enter into the "helping" professions often entered because "they were troubled and someone helped them' or "it's good to help and I am a good, helping person." The problem is, the person who was troubled and got help may still not see their very dangerous pathology to help is actually knee-capping people. As well, many have very limited experience in resolving root issues or even understanding root issues from anything more than a basic CBT-based ideal.

 

To be completely blunt and honest, I find more psychiatrists in particular to be not well-adjusted and concerning that I would find in the general population. There is something about the career in itself (perhaps the $$, it is a top paying specialty) that attracts the wrong type of person OR creates it's own monsters. I suspect many are actually sociopaths.

 

I hear you. Imagine selecting a therapist to help you work through infidelity and inadvertenly choosing an affair cheer leader who thinks affairs are all caused by the evil BS mistreating poor WS lol.

[Got it]

Very interesting thread, not sure how I feel about the premise of it as I think there are 100 roads to Rome so I have a hard time with only one reason for such a complex human action.

 

But I am quite surprised by the immediate defensive and insulting posts.

 

I think a general "agree to disagree" reply would have sufficed.

[velvette]

Very interesting thread, not sure how I feel about the premise of it as I think there are 100 roads to Rome so I have a hard time with only one reason for such a complex human action.

 

But I am quite surprised by the immediate defensive and insulting posts.

 

I think a general "agree to disagree" reply would have sufficed.

 

 

Most of us know that you couldn't find 50 people to agree on the meaning of a simple human action much less a complex human action.

 

 

All you are seeing is that people don't like to be bullS***ed.