gettingstronger Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Bathtub, I'm confused, are you speaking of the cancer of an affair in your post? Link to post Share on other sites
bathtub-row Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 This may be true for you but it may not be for someone else. Why is it so difficult to consider that it is different for all? No one's way is the only way. Just because they think differently doesn't mean they live in dysfunction. I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances but most of the relationships I see everywhere are so dysfunctional, it's unreal. I don't think people know what normal is anymore. When a person reaches the point of cheating, they might as well stand on a rooftop and shout, "I'm done with this marriage!" Whether they actually leave or not, in their mind, they're done. Cheating is not an act of trying to preserve a relationship. It's a way of wielding the axe. That's probably what those professionals already know. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Wifeinpain Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Amy, my therapist is a PHD and specializes in infidelity and he couldn't disagree more. I am a former AP and I believed their marriage was bad, until my now husband had an affair...in both cases the marriages were great and happy, but the problem was our husband. Yes happy marriages are not affair proof. I don't care what you and fifty professionals have to say, I KNOW my husband and his issues had nothing to do with the marriage. He was unhappy with work so thought a little excitement would be loads of fun. 9 Link to post Share on other sites
purplesorrow Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances but most of the relationships I see everywhere are so dysfunctional, it's unreal. I don't think people know what normal is anymore. When a person reaches the point of cheating, they might as well stand on a rooftop and shout, "I'm done with this marriage!" Whether they actually leave or not, in their mind, they're done. Cheating is not an act of trying to preserve a relationship. It's a way of wielding the axe. That's probably what those professionals already know. And what do you make of the ones who cheated that say they didn't feel what you proclaim their cheating meant? And as I stated before, there is a professional to support any argument. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Grapesofwrath Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The topic of the conference is relevant. Was it on marriage and couples? Personality disorders? Sexual addiction? Makes a difference in how they would interpret the case study, IMO. That said, it is confusing and painful to know that one is an AP for someone in a good marriage. Hard to feel like anything other than a toy for someone who has basically got a pretty great life and just wants to have his cake and eat it too. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Hope Shimmers Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The topic of the conference is relevant. Was it on marriage and couples? Personality disorders? Sexual addiction? Makes a difference in how they would interpret the case study, IMO. No, it doesn't, actually. Treatment and strategies should be the same, because the things you mentioned are part of the case study (differential diagnoses - meaning other possible diagnoses - are considered as part of the case). That is something every clinician needs to consider in every case, so the title/topic of the conference is irrelevant. That said, it is confusing and painful to know that one is an AP for someone in a good marriage. Hard to feel like anything other than a toy for someone who has basically got a pretty great life and just wants to have his cake and eat it too. True. But I think it is more complicated than that. Link to post Share on other sites
minimariah Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances but most of the relationships I see everywhere are so dysfunctional, it's unreal. I don't think people know what normal is anymore. they do - but for MANY, staying in a dysfunctional relationship is better than being alone. also, if you stay in that kind of relationship for long enough - you start looking at it as something normal. also, think of those people who truly don't know better because they were raised in a dysfunctional environment. that's why staying in a relationship like that is most definitely a personal problem, always. When a person reaches the point of cheating, they might as well stand on a rooftop and shout, "I'm done with this marriage!" Whether they actually leave or not, in their mind, they're done. Cheating is not an act of trying to preserve a relationship. It's a way of wielding the axe. That's probably what those professionals already know. this simply isn't true. you really can't generalize about infidelity, not at all. that's why you won't ever hear a true professional speak the way the OP claims they did. they know better because they've seen a lot of different cases. i've actually said this in other threads (so... in a way, i agreed with these imaginary professionals) - cheating usually IS a symptom that shows you something is wrong & missing in the marriage. there were issues that "allowed" you to become that reckless that you're actually willing to inflict that much pain on your BS & risk your entire marriage. many people go crazy at this because they take it as victim blaming (of the BS) - but it's not. i also said that, in most cases, people cheat because they stopped loving (or lost the connection) to their BS. they love them as persons, friends, parents... but not in a romantic way. once you lose that? you'll able to connect romantically with someone else. the thing is - cheating is ALSO a personal problem. it CAN be a symptom of a dead marriage + it usually is a symptom of deeper issues (people not being honest, not handling their problems well + leading double lives, you need to have a certain kind of... character to do all of this). some people recognize this, get a divorce and seek IC and learn something. some don't. however - you can have a good marriage and a f*ucked up person in it, literally. that's where mental disorders and deeper issues come in - BPD, for example. in that case, the cause of the cheating isn't a bad marriage and you can't claim that these people are done with it or that they don't love their spouses. i mean... you will NEVER hear a professional who has good education + rich experience say something like - every marriage that had an A is doomed. that's like saying that only smokers get lung cuncer. it's not without a reason that all posters who work in medicine are a little baffled at the OP's post - they know what's really up. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
beach Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 There was a case study presented about a man who had an affair and lengthy discussion about possible treatment routes regarding him possibly telling his wife two years after the fact. Not a single person in the room thought he should tell his wife, although every single one agreed that he should not be in the marriage with her bc it was obviously dysfunctional if he had an affair - and that was the consensus among 50 professionals who are trained in human behavior and psychology. Why didn't the discussion include the fact that the M was most likely dysfunctional from the fact that he cheated and betrayed his wife? 4 Link to post Share on other sites
HtotheN Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (see: BPD) & deeper issues. Does BPD stand for bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder? Link to post Share on other sites
minimariah Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Does BPD stand for bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder? borderline personality disorder. Link to post Share on other sites
Poppy47 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Anybody can justify any side of the argument if it suits their purpose. I had something very wrong in my marriage and no escape except my husband's death. THAT is why I eventually cheated. I was lonely and a carer for 10 years because he was in a nursing home with dementia and didn't know me. Was there a dysfuntional aspect to me or was I just being human???? I never did it ever before. Nobody else can ever say because they haven't been there. Everybody should agree to disagree because we will never all agree... or something. Cheers, Poppy Link to post Share on other sites
Bootsie Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hmm a case study you say.... about "a man". Well maybe the case study was presented in such a way that the facts supported that the marriage was dysfunctional and the man had no other obvious problems, the wife was from hell, and the OW was his saviour and healer. Perhaps in a different "case study" about "a man", all those professionals would have concluded that the man, not the marriage, had serious problems. Professionals expressing an opinion about a case study, means nothing outside the context of that case study. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffian1 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 If it was "the marriage" or in other words "their relationship" that made them cheat, how does that explain the stats that the AP's who go on to have a relationship with each other are twice as likely (than the original marriage) to part ways too. 3% I think is all the "affairages" that seem to last for awhile. Because the cheaters have such "lurve" for each other and the OW is perfect unlike the BS and their relationship is obviously going to be perfect I would think that these Affair Relationships would be 100% solid, not 3%. What did these 50 professionals say about relationships born of affairs? Healthy and happy all the time? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yes happy marriages are not affair proof. I don't care what you and fifty professionals have to say, I KNOW my husband and his issues had nothing to do with the marriage. He was unhappy with work so thought a little excitement would be loads of fun. Ok, he was unhappy with work, so why didn't he go white water rafting or swimming with sharks or hill climbing or learn to play guitar, for loads of fun and excitement? NO, he chose to "solve" the "happy" marriage by having sex with, talking to and hanging out with another woman. He was so "happy" in the marriage that instead of taking comfort from his wife when he was feeling down, he chose to go elsewhere. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
purplesorrow Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ok, he was unhappy with work, so why didn't he go white water rafting or swimming with sharks or hill climbing or learn to play guitar, for loads of fun and excitement? NO, he chose to "solve" the "happy" marriage by having sex with, talking to and hanging out with another woman. He was so "happy" in the marriage that instead of taking comfort from his wife when he was feeling down, he chose to go elsewhere. What are you saying here? He chose to cope with his unhappiness in an unhealthy way, that is a given. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 If it was "the marriage" or in other words "their relationship" that made them cheat, how does that explain the stats that the AP's who go on to have a relationship with each other are twice as likely (than the original marriage) to part ways too. 3% I think is all the "affairages" that seem to last for awhile. Because the cheaters have such "lurve" for each other and the OW is perfect unlike the BS and their relationship is obviously going to be perfect I would think that these Affair Relationships would be 100% solid, not 3%. What did these 50 professionals say about relationships born of affairs? Healthy and happy all the time? The unhealthiness and unhappiness in the marriage/relationship does not equate to happiness elsewhere. The fact few affairiages last long term, is not relevant. If I am unhappy living in Belgium for instance and I decide to move to France, is it guaranteed I will be happier in France? No, of course not. I may be just as unhappy in France, or I may be happier. I moved to France because I was unhappy in Belgium full stop, what happens after that is in the lap of the Gods. France may just be a stopping off point. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What are you saying here? He chose to cope with his unhappiness in an unhealthy way, that is a given. I am saying that had he been truly happy in his marriage, then he would have chosen to get his fun and excitement in a non-cheating way. He chose cheating for fun and excitement, because the OW fixed the part of his life that he thought needed fixing. As that role filled by the OW, should have been filled by his wife, or in some other non cheating way, then what does that say about the marriage? The "happy" marriage is then purely one sided. No-one, IMO has a truly "good and happy" marriage, if one partner feels they need to cheat or will cheat or have cheated. That partner is no longer giving themselves totally to the marriage, their focus for sex, closeness and comfort is elsewhere, they have chosen to betray and lie to the person they chose to marry and promised fidelity to. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
purplesorrow Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I am saying that had he been truly happy in his marriage, then he would have chosen to get his fun and excitement in a non-cheating way. He chose cheating for fun and excitement, because the OW fixed the part of his life that he thought needed fixing. As that role filled by the OW, should have been filled by his wife, or in some other non cheating way, then what does that say about the marriage? The "happy" marriage is then purely one sided. No-one, IMO has a truly "good and happy" marriage, if one partner feels they need to cheat or will cheat or have cheated. That partner is no longer giving themselves totally to the marriage, their focus for sex, closeness and comfort is elsewhere, they have chosen to betray and lie to the person they chose to marry and promised fidelity to. So you...who knows nothing about them nor their marriage can tell them they weren't truly happy in their marriage? 3 Link to post Share on other sites
William Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The thread topic appears to discuss conclusions reached in a case study during a meeting of professionals and did not address any particular person's affair so we moved the thread to GRD, re-titled it to accurately reflect the content and removed posts which were clearly not addressing the topic. On-topic discussion of the case study is welcomed. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 There is no doubt that the person cheating is unhealthy while in the affair. As far as the marriage. A marriage could be very unhealthy when a person cheats. However, the presence of an unhappy marriage and an affair does not equal causation. I can buy that a very unhappy and/or unhealthy marriage can cause resentment, loneliness, hurt, and vulnerability. But it doesn't CAUSE an affair. Just like being hungry or poor does not CAUSE stealing. It may contribute to why a person would be tempted to steal, but they still ultimately CHOOSE to break the law. Besides, do we really want to live with a person who thinks that if someone else is doing something wrong or not keeping "their part of the bargain," it becomes fine to toss aside values and morals? The WS or AP who honestly thinks a BS who wasn't a good spouse somehow makes what is categorically wrong (cheating) right has a serious character issue. My values and morality shouldn't depend on someone else's behavior. 9 Link to post Share on other sites
central Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 IMO, you can have a great relationship AND an affair. However, the person having the affair is risking hurting their spouse, so at least they are selfish and dishonest. Sometimes the relationship isn't great, but that's not what I'm addressing here. It's generally true that your spouse cannot - and should not be expected to - meet ALL of your needs (socially, intellectually, as well as sexually). That has never been an expectation in the past (aside from the sexual aspect), but modern ideas of marriage have changed to often include the dysfunctional idea that your spouse needs to be your "soul mate." If you take away the non-consensual, clandestine aspect of an affair, so that it is mutually agreed and permitted to have other sexual partners, you take away the selfish, dishonest, potentially harmful cheating aspect. The relationship can be great, with no cheating, yet still allow outside sexual partners, opposite sex friends, etc. Taking it one step further, it can become consensual polyamory if extramarital love relationships form. Link to post Share on other sites
cocorico Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I did bring up that there are a subgroup of people who are convinced that people in "good" marriages have affairs and one of the experts responded with, "it's a defense mechanism for them to avoid admitting that their marriage wasn't actually good - or, they are just absolutely unaware of what good actually means". Plenty of evidence of that on this thread, too My thoughts, as a fOW - I think oftentimes the MAP is unaware quite how bad their M has become, a little like the frog in the slowly heating pot unaware that it's getting hotter until it cooks them. It's only when they hope into a pot of cool water - the A - that they realise just how bad things were getting in the M pot. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
cocorico Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 My question to these professionals would have been: If it is the marriage that is dysfunctional, why is it only one spouse cheated? Because the dysfunctionality suited the other partner? Certainly that was the case in my H's M with the xBW. It suited her down to the ground, which is why she was adamant it was so great, no problems, no need for MC... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
cocorico Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 IMO, you can have a great relationship AND an affair. Yep. The "great relationship" is the affair Link to post Share on other sites
purplesorrow Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yep. The "great relationship" is the affair If it is that simple why aren't all ow/Om now with their mm/mw? 11 Link to post Share on other sites
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