Burying Brother's Ashes at Scene of Crime: Will BS Be Triggered into Pieces?

[road]

Not a bad idea at all (about my husband). It would be interesting, good for him but there is absolutely NO possibility that he would go. None whatsoever. The NC between him and OW is sacrosanct. No exceptions ever for any reason or adjustment of circumstances. Non negotiable.

 

fyi - I'm still considering going again but there should be no need to interact with her. My sons are fine handling that. I would not like dealing with her sons' wistful asking after my H, however.

 

Here's her latest communication (which I didn't answer):

 

merrmeade -

W

says you, Y and Z will be coming. Y'all are welcome to stay at the cabin with us. We'll manage to find a place for everyone to sleep. Weather permitting we'll bury the ashes Saturday afternoon at 2. Really look forward to being with you. -- snakeinthegrass

PS. I hope you will bring the power point.

 

 

 

 

After reading the later posts and learning or just picking up on things I may have missed you would be wrong to weaken and break NC.

 

 

More important from what you have written you are wrong to not expose this affair.

 

 

How can you let this OW get away without consequences and play the grieving widow?

[beach]

Not a bad idea at all (about my husband). It would be interesting, good for him but there is absolutely NO possibility that he would go. None whatsoever. The NC between him and OW is sacrosanct. No exceptions ever for any reason or adjustment of circumstances. Non negotiable.

 

fyi - I'm still considering going again but there should be no need to interact with her. My sons are fine handling that. I would not like dealing with her sons' wistful asking after my H, however.

 

Here's her latest communication (which I didn't answer):

merrmeade -

W

says you, Y and Z will be coming. Y'all are welcome to stay at the cabin with us. We'll manage to find a place for everyone to sleep. Weather permitting we'll bury the ashes Saturday afternoon at 2. Really look forward to being with you. -- snakeinthegrass

PS. I hope you will bring the power point.

 

Wow, she has some nerve acting like she doesn't acknowledge what she's done. No remorse or feelings for you and how she's harmed you.

 

When family/people ask why you're not going - I think it would be useful at this point to be honest.

 

I'd say the reason is she had an affair while married to your brother, which caused much harm to your family - that it's impossible to look at her without distain towards her for what she's done.

 

Let her truth be known.

 

 

And I'd leave it at that.

[merrmeade]

But what you all do not seem to be thinking about is how it would play out and how - telling the truth so the truth will make us all free - could backfire or be used to create another layer of garbage double-speak. The timing is everything.

 

First of all - before going into the different timing scenarios - let me just explain my experience at 'coming out' to people. I have been burned and ended up feeling more alone, blamed and unsupported in the past by the people I told. So besides my kids, I told someone I'd considered my best friend and about a year post-DDay I told a first cousin who'd spent lots of time with OW/WH during the A and still spends time with OW. So the BF's reaction was measured, listening without reacting, asking questions and then giving advice that was not to tell anyone else. She did not follow up and see how I was doing. I emailed the cousin that I wanted to talk to her and then called. Her first reaction when I told her and then said the reason I was telling her was because she'd always looked so confused about the weirdness of the family settings when I'd skype from abroad to OW's house and they'd all be there eating or whatever. She answered that she felt confused why I wasn't there with him more than anything (i.e., it was my fault he was alone and vulnerable). Then, she wrote an email advising me to forgive, citing all of OW's trials and difficulties (including my brother's having caused his own stroke b/c he wouldn't take care of his diabetes properly).

 

So this is what I've gotten when I've come out to people I'd thought were close to me. I'm a bit diffident about going through that disappointment again.

 

The question is whether THEY - my brother and his wife - have a right to know and should know, and I agree they should

 

So back to the question of timing and when this disclosure could take place. I think the very worst time possible would be this weekend BECAUSE she would use that act to make me look vindictive. The spin would be that I took the event and made it about me. That's one thing. The other is that I don't WANT to take the focus of the weekend from my brother to me. I want it to be about him.

 

So if I could get brother #2 to come to where we live now, I could let H tell him after the weekend. That would be my preference.

 

Yes, I agree about the NC with OW. I need to write my own NC letter like my WH did especially since I think she really and truly does not get it about me. It's as if she actually believes that I want a relationship with her, as if she's doing me a favor bestowing her great friendship skills on me. Talk about insult to injury. Like somebody said, she's kind of dopey. WH's NC letter worked b/c she has left him alone and has not abused or disregarded the directive in that letter since receiving it two and a half yrs ago. My letter would be different, however, because I have to leave the option for business communication related to family matters, e.g., a trust.

 

Maybe I can get it done before Sat but if not will do a stopgap communication with the basics: I do not now or ever want a relationship with her. I do not want any overtures, gestures or expressions of regard from her. I have not decided yet if I can be there at the same time, but I very much want to be there to see B#2 and do right by my deceased brother. It would help if I knew she would respect my space. Something like that.

Edited March 19, 2015 by merrmeade

[autumnnight]

Merr, there are people who subscribe to a very very specific philosophy who believe in widespread exposure no matter what and no matter how long it has been. That has very good merit. But this is YOUR life with YOUR circumstances. Please don't get caught up in that. Strategic exposure can work wonders to kill and affair. And sometimes even years later it really NEEDS to be done. I can understand why, for you, it might cause more overall harm. This is your decision.

 

Let me be clear on this: I believe in the plan that has been referenced. I believe it is very good. I am just thinking about your specific direction.

Edited March 19, 2015 by autumnnight

[beach]

I think waiting until after this weekend would be best. Maybe even a month or so...

[merrmeade]

Merr, there are people who subscribe to a very very specific philosophy who believe in widespread exposure no matter what and no matter how long it has been. That has very good merit. But this is YOUR life with YOUR circumstances. Please don't get caught up in that. Strategic exposure can work wonders to kill and affair. And sometimes even years later it really NEEDS to be done. I can understand why, for you, it might cause more overall harm. This is your decision.

 

Let me be clear on this: I believe in the plan that has been referenced. I believe it is very good. I am just thinking about your specific direction.

I appreciate the measured way you present this, but I think you're assuming I'm more aware of what all you're referencing. In some ways, I'm still very much a newbie considering I came from completely innocent, everybody I know shares my values place I was in two years ago to knowing a great deal, but not everything, about dealing with infidelity.

 

Please explain, autumnnight. I'm intrigued and think it will help me.

What do you think has good merit?

What is the plan that has been referenced?

What do you think my specific direction is?

Strategic exposure can work wonders to kill and affair. And sometimes even years later it really NEEDS to be done.

?? So the affair is killed. I have NO doubt about that. But perhaps you're referring to her continued behavior that allows the public to think OW & WH have a friendly relationship or had one that was normal (but wasn't) and THAT would be dashed with dose of exposure?

 

I mean, what is the benefit and goal here of exposure? Respect and dignity returned to me? Something else I'm missing? Obviously I don't get it because here we are same old same old...

 

And by "public" I'm just thinking my brother & his wife. What were you thinking? More? Whom? **

 

Please expand.

 

** I mean, WH told his older sister (only) in his family about a different affair a few decades ago but told her in a controlled way that probably gave him a slightly sympathetic edge and benefit of the doubt. I mean, when HE tells (or probably any WH to effect a desired inference on the part of the listener - and any WH would know this and allow or exploit it depending on the person) the inference on the other side is probably - what was going on with merrmeade when that happened? You know, the

old

"poor guy; his marriage sucked / he felt stuck and helpless / she didn't appreciate him / she didn't want sex" or whatever they say to make the other person feel sorry for them and blame shift.

Edited March 19, 2015 by merrmeade

[autumnnight]

I appreciate the measured way you present this, but I think you're assuming I'm more aware of what all you're referencing. In some ways, I'm still very much a newbie considering I came from completely innocent, everybody I know shares my values place I was in two years ago to knowing a great deal, but not everything, about dealing with infidelity.

 

Please explain, autumnnight. I'm intrigued and think it will help me.

What do you think has good merit?

What is the plan that has been referenced?

What do you think my specific direction is?

?? So the affair is killed. I have NO doubt about that. But perhaps you're referring to her continued behavior that allows the public to think OW & WH have a friendly relationship or had one that was normal (but wasn't) and THAT would be dashed with dose of exposure?

 

I mean, what is the benefit and goal here of exposure? Respect and dignity returned to me? Something else I'm missing? Obviously I don't get it because here we are same old same old...

 

And by "public" I'm just thinking my brother & his wife. What were you thinking? More? Whom? **

 

Please expand.

 

** I mean, WH told his older sister (only) in his family about a different affair a few decades ago but told her in a controlled way that probably gave him a slightly sympathetic edge and benefit of the doubt. I mean, when HE tells (or probably any WH to effect a desired inference on the part of the listener - and any WH would know this and allow or exploit it depending on the person) the inference on the other side is probably - what was going on with merrmeade when that happened? You know, the

old

"poor guy; his marriage sucked / he felt stuck and helpless / she didn't appreciate him / she didn't want sex" or whatever they say to make the other person feel sorry for them and blame shift.

 

 

 

Bottom line, I think in your case reopening all this publicly will be bad for YOU. Y'all are recovering, the A is over.

 

I think go Italian on the OW. "She is dead to me." That is if you go. I believe your brother is even now wanting to comfort you and is seeing your love for him. You are a good sister.

[merrmeade]

I am so touched and warmed by all the posters, giving life to my beloved brother. It's as if he is receiving tribute from all over the world and everyone is helping me transform his sad, noble demise into a presence that celebrates the best he was and that we all are and share as one.

 

I do feel so much better for having posted this thread - for whatever I do!

[BetrayedH]

You didn't ask me but, forgive me if I ramble for a moment.

 

Some people subscribe to the belief that affairs should be exposed widespread. Some of the cutesy phrases are, "Affairs are like mushrooms; they thrive in the dark and die in the sunlight," or "Affair partners are like cockroaches; turn on the light and they scatter," or "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be."

 

The affair recovery systems that preach widespread exposure are typically advising it as a tool to kill the affair. It's a system of shock and awe that uses shame to manipulate affair partners into stopping the affair and returning to the marriage. The reverse scenario (keeping the affair secret because the BS is either embarrased/ashamed, protective of the WS, or simply paralyzed with indecision) tends to enable the affair to continue. Because of this, some people say to tell anyone and everyone that will listen (the other BS, the AP's family, parents on both sides, the kids, relatives, priests/pastors, the grocery clerk, etc). In my view, this strategy is arguably effective in stopping an affair but I don't endorse it because it can have unintended consequences (especially with kids) and I wouldn't want my spouse to return only out of guilt and shame. But, none of that applies to you as the affair is long over.

 

What I do support is telling people for the sake of support. I leaned on family and friends and refused to ever feel guilt about it. I didn't expose the affair out of punishment or manipulation but simply because I needed my friends and family.

 

I also believe that there are some people that simply deserve to know. The most obvious person is the other BS and I don't care who tells them. Some people believe that the children deserve to know. Personally, I think that's debateable but fortunately, not really applicable to you. However, what you might consider is what relatives (particularly on your side) deserve to know. I'm not sure how your relatives would feel if they knew they'd spent the weekend offering kind condolences to your SIL if they knew she had been betraying your brother by sleeping with your husband.

 

I think it also merits some thought to consider why you'd help keep this secret at all. Who are you protecting by participating in the lie? Should they be protected? Why are you not being honest and authentic? What message does this send to the betrayers? If you are denying yourself from potential supporters, why are you doing that?

 

Personally, I think exposure to get support is fine. And I think some people need to know. But otherwise, I'm selective and prioritize thoughts about protecting kids from unnecesary trauma. But even with all that said, I have my limits. If your SiL can't respect your very reasonable and understandable boundaries, I wouldn't hesitate to stand up in front of everyone and annouce what a farce she's putting on. There's a limit to how much the BS needs to try to take the high road and how much hyperanalysis we should be expected to do. You didn't ask for any of this.

 

Confused enough about what to do now? Yeah, sorry. I'm not really sure how well I'm really contributing to this thread.

[BetrayedH]

I should add, I don't blame you for not informing your brother before he passed away. It was an awful scenario and you made a very conscientious and thoughtful decision. Sadly, you've still got more to make.

 

At the end of the day, just remember that you and your brother are the victims in this scenario.

[merrmeade]

You didn't ask me but, forgive me if I ramble for a moment.

 

Some people subscribe to the belief that affairs should be exposed widespread. Some of the cutesy phrases are, "Affairs are like mushrooms; they thrive in the dark and die in the sunlight," or "Affair partners are like cockroaches; turn on the light and they scatter," or "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be."

 

The affair recovery systems that preach widespread exposure are typically advising it as a tool to kill the affair. It's a system of shock and awe that uses shame to manipulate affair partners into stopping the affair and returning to the marriage. The reverse scenario (keeping the affair secret because the BS is either embarrased/ashamed, protective of the WS, or simply paralyzed with indecision) tends to enable the affair to continue. Because of this, some people say to tell anyone and everyone that will listen (the other BS, the AP's family, parents on both sides, the kids, relatives, priests/pastors, the grocery clerk, etc). In my view, this strategy is arguably effective in stopping an affair but I don't endorse it because it can have unintended consequences (especially with kids) and I wouldn't want my spouse to return only out of guilt and shame. But, none of that applies to you as the affair is long over.

 

What I do support is telling people for the sake of support. I leaned on family and friends and refused to ever feel guilt about it. I didn't expose the affair out of punishment or manipulation but simply because I needed my friends and family.

 

I also believe that there are some people that simply deserve to know. The most obvious person is the other BS and I don't care who tells them. Some people believe that the children deserve to know. Personally, I think that's debateable but fortunately, not really applicable to you. However, what you might consider is what relatives (particularly on your side) deserve to know. I'm not sure how your relatives would feel if they knew they'd spent the weekend offering kind condolences to your SIL if they knew she had been betraying your brother by sleeping with your husband.

 

I think it also merits some thought to consider why you'd help keep this secret at all. Who are you protecting by participating in the lie? Should they be protected? Why are you not being honest and authentic? What message does this send to the betrayers? If you are denying yourself from potential supporters, why are you doing that?

 

Personally, I think exposure to get support is fine. And I think some people need to know. But otherwise, I'm selective and prioritize thoughts about protecting kids from unnecesary trauma. But even with all that said, I have my limits. If your SiL can't respect your very reasonable and understandable boundaries, I wouldn't hesitate to stand up in front of everyone and annouce what a farce she's putting on. There's a limit to how much the BS needs to try to take the high road and how much hyperanalysis we should be expected to do. You didn't ask for any of this.

 

Confused enough about what to do now? Yeah, sorry. I'm not really sure how well I'm really contributing to this thread.

No, not confused and agree with the various rationales.

 

What I tried to explain earlier was that I was major BURNed by exposing to my cousin and a friend when I was vulnerable and in need of support. I didn't realize how close the cousin and OW were until then. All I got was lecture, no concern or understanding, admonishment to take the high road, etc. And the friend just seemed like she didn't want to know. She could see the writing on the wall and the family split that would ensue, probably hard since she was close to my brothers, too. Anyway, that was not something I want to go through again!

 

Brother #2 and I are not that close, and he was annoyed with my husband for other reasons (but also related in a way) for a few years. On the other hand, he's a retired doctor and approaches life as an empirical experiment. He'll ask us questions that won't even occur to other people and he won't select tone or wording. He'll get the relevant information and reach his own conclusions. He MIGHT offer some advice by way of sharing his perspective but not necessarily.

 

So: Interesting timing

My nephew just called me from Illinois. I feel close to this one for some reason. We chatted about this and that to do with the plans for the weekend -(was I coming - maybe) talked a lot about his dad - and then he said, "Aunt Merrmeade, I hope you won't be offended if I ask this but do you think you can ever forgive my mother?"

 

Goddamnitsonofabitch! I just hate that! Pulling on my f--king heartstrings and, no, I don't think she put him up to it at all. Of course, he wants and needs that and can't understand why I can't. I tried to tell him he's not responsible. I tried to mention the main issues for me and finally just said I can only work on my marriage. I'm sorry. I wonder where he'll be about it in a year or longer.

 

I tried to explain that it's not a choice or a decision; it's visceral and out of my control. I explained that I understood all the reasons it happened, all the circumstances and that I was responsible for the fact that my H was living at the cabin, that I regret it but that it's STILL not my fault. I told him how I felt about lying to my brother and then said we didn't need to revisit the topic any more for a while. He was disappointed that I completely dashed his hopes. I wonder how it will be spinned.

Edited March 19, 2015 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

I'm bogarting my own thread, but I guess that's my right. I'm going to post two breakthroughs/insights.

 

I just had a GREAT conversation with my daughter. Told her about conversation with her cousin, his disappointment.. I said he just doesn't understand, doesn't get it. She flipped out., repeated, "Why not?" several times, "Why doesn't he get it?" How can he just dismiss it? It was trashy, cheap, low-class to happen with family members. It should have been against the moral fiber of everyone in the family. Our grandparents didn't teach or model that. And why can't you speak up instead of apologizing? You need to write a script or something that you have ready for these situations. "Like what?" I said. Like, "I don't have to accommodate or fix a breach I did not create. 'Fixing it ' would be only insult my own moral fiber. It's not my place and I don't have to make allowances for those responsible for the destruction of our families. I'm not responsible for their lack of ability to acknowledge. How am I supposed to make better when they haven't even acknowledged what they did to me, to all of us. They should be pandering to me for the rest of their lives if there's any fixing to be done…"

 

Then, she launched into what I can and should do, saying I should be a more vocal role model for the family. Every one of us knows very well what our moral legacy is, so why do I let OW be the spokesperson. She said I need to hold them accountable when a line is crossed, open dialogue when things happen or get said, remind them of what we believe and how we treat each other. I need to remember my mother — famous for her standards, her humanity, and her ability to articulate what she believed and why it was important.

 

We were on the phone and I wrote or remembered as much as possible, but omg it was awesome. She's amazing. I'll take some credit for it, but at this point she deserves it all for having taken the heritage she was given, making it her own and then articulating it.

Edited March 20, 2015 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

So this is it. I realized it like a bell or a light after talking with my daughter (above) — that is, why I've hedged about telling my other brother:

 

I'm embarrassed because what they did was trashy. I know that my brother would be shocked and think badly of my husband. And he should.

 

And I know that it is my husband. Of course, it's also the SIL. As she said, "It was mutual. We were needy." But what I know that no one else knows about my husband is that he has had something with all of my sisters-in-law—from inappropriate to infidelity. And this IS a question of character and deep down decency - an absence. Something is missing that makes certain things in life too distasteful to take part in.

 

And what I realized is that it is not who my brothers and I were or are.

[Mazerati]

Merr,

 

You have raised a wonderful daughter! I agree with your recent posts, you show great strength (you may not think it but I do), and I admire that.

I understand the NC for your husband, but he should be by your side when the time is right for all to know the truth.

 

You honor your brother and family well!

 

In my thoughts.

 

Maz

[dreamingoftigers]

I've had it with your SiL. I'd buy a plane ticket to come see you slap the smirk off her face and announce to everyone what a farce that ceremony is. I haven't heard one iota of compassion for you since your multiple Dday, trickle truth nonsense began and burying his remains at the scene of the crime is ridiculous. And people there will all be expressing sympathy for her loss and she'll be sucking up the attention. Gag. Barf.

 

I'm glad you're not attending. You're a better person than I because at this point, I'd probably make sure everyone knew why I wasn't.

 

Hide the couches!

[beach]

I agree with your daughters assessment!

 

Have a voice and speak your truth! Expose to all her family! Her son shouldn't expect you to forgive when his own Mother has shown no remorse and no empathy for you.

 

She needs consequences. It may also create extreme heat for your H - but he deserves it too.

 

It's as though you've protected them with staying silent.

 

It's time to speak up - loud and clear. I'd wait a week or so until your emotions settle a bit and then fire away. You deserve to let her truth be known.

 

The outcome will come... Lay low after exposing and have her deal with the windfall. Allow your H to suffer his consequences too... Himself.

 

Honor your brother by exposing the rat he was married to - he will reward you for your truth.

[whichwayisup]

I don't envy you..You're in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

Your nephew must have a skewed version of what happened, for to him to ask you to forgive his mom - He obviously hasn't heard the nasty stuff she's done and said? One thing that probably has passed through his head though and why he asked you - You forgave your husband so maybe that is why he is hoping you'll forgive her.

 

Sooner or later the truth will come out, it has to. As things are now, some know, some don't...Tell when you feel ready to and are strong enough to handle it.

[beach]

Where does your H stand in all this? What does he say about all this chaos he helped create?

[Lion Heart]

You and I both! I am so bowled over and heartened by the outpouring of support and FEELING, literally buoyed up and carried.

 

Such a strange group of friends this is, disembodied and faceless, but gathered 'round more palpably and firmly than real family.

 

Can't imagine how alone it would have felt had I waited even one more day to post. As it is, I feel so peaceful and well. I can only compare it to how my parents used to make me feel—respected, valued and understood.

 

I gathered up the timely nuggets of things I can DO in a tight situation (if I go) and printed out a little go-to reference sheet, with colored ink

 

It's EMPATHY. The best of all virtues lacking in society. When in pain, we all need empathy. I got tears in my eyes reading this. Just because.

 

Your thread starter was so full of agony. It's the only word I can use. Pure unadulterated AGONY. The conflicted emotions. Urgent decisions to make.

 

NOW look at you! You go girl! Figuratively speaking.

 

Try to hold this feeling with both hands and your whole heart as you tread your path. We are ALL here cheering for you no matter what you choose to do. KNOW you can access LS should you attend the memorial and if you can't, KNOW we are here anyway. "Team Merrmeade"!!

 

I have never felt so understood except here. To see similar thoughts, feelings and unbearable pain expressed here is SO sad but so incredibly comforting. Others have trodden paths similar to mine and survived. Grown. Then learnt how to fly.

 

You're a flying Merrmeade!

 

One of my favourite quotes is:

"Be still and KNOW that I am God".

 

I wish you the deepest of peace. You are such a brave and wonderful woman.

Lion Heart.

[merrmeade]

Where does your H stand in all this? What does he say about all this chaos he helped create?

Where he's great is in supporting me about her. He's understanding and tries to protect me. I think he sees me as easy prey because of my personality and tries to kind of coach me how not to be vulnerable. Daughter, same. It's rather hopeless though. I'm just not a natural bitch. (This is me, getting nervous ... )

 

Yes, it's a telling question and one that defines our R. The way WSs in general handle this reality is pivotal. There's our Mrs. Adams' position, which is the ideal remorseful WS. She is able at any moment to accept her culpability and the damage she caused. She gives no resistance, none, to any and all discussion about all aspects of it and her reaction is always deep, personal pain, which she conveys. She gives herself and expects no margin of excuse or explanation. She expects nothing.

 

My SIL is at the other end. She feels she's paid her dues for her mistake and expects everything to go back the way it was. She sees the current situation as my responsibility.

 

My H vacillates between these extremes. He sees the bitch for what she is and is trying to do and tries to protect me from her general predatory nature and from my generally vulnerable one. When I said to him recently that the difference between them regarding the A was that he never gave excuses, always accepted the responsibility and I could tell gave him a boost. He needed to be better than OW and to be told he's not scum. But then last night, when I shared my insight about myself and why I've resisted telling my brother, my daughter's references to the tawdry cheapness of family infidelity as a reality, and then looked at him and realized the second part of that insight. THAT is what is so crippling for him, what his toxic shame is about. I said softly that it simply was true. I wasn't trying to hit him over the head with it and repeated what I'd said above: He's always accepted responsibility, never gave excuses. He said sarcastically, "Yeah, right" and practically yelled at me, "I'm sorry!" I took the dog for a walk, came back and his behavior was apologetic. And that's how it goes. He cannot grovel.

 

Someone suggested that he tell my brother. He also offered to do this once. I wonder if he could actually go through with it. I have my doubts and think it would be like many, many times in his life where he says he'll do something he knows is right but right before (as in minutes) the reality of it, he explodes with the conflicting extremes of emotions. The "I'm sorry" above was that kind of explosion — hating that I was right, hating what it says about him and wanting to genuinely be able to say he was sorry. It comes out sounding anything but.

 

I've mixed description of behavior with explanation of what it means. I think if I were better able to go straight to what it means as my daughter is so apt with, I'd handle everyone and myself much better.

 

So back to what he does well. He helps me get ready for facing her. When I went to the church funeral in the fall, he tried to coach me some. He also agrees I should go NC with her. I've shown him 5 or 6 letters (emails) I've tried to write her. He has the same reaction each time: Short and to the point is better. He usually suggests something like: Your overtures imply that we have a relationship. We can never have a relationship. Please don't contact me again. I'm never able to leave it at that and keep adding explanation about WHAT SHE DID.

 

And that's where my daughter kind of concurred I thought yesterday. See, this conversation with her about it was rare and not one I regularly pursue with her. She asked me not to and I've respected that. But because of the upcoming event, we've had a couple of talks. She knows how I am. She knows how her father is. She knows how her aunt, brothers and cousins are. She just knows. And what she said was that I needed to stop letting myself be victimized and show everyone the higher moral road - for their good.

 

It's takes a special person to pull that off in such a crowd. Not sure I'm up to it, guys.

[Lion Heart]

You didn't ask me but, forgive me if I ramble for a moment.

 

Some people subscribe to the belief that affairs should be exposed widespread. Some of the cutesy phrases are, "Affairs are like mushrooms; they thrive in the dark and die in the sunlight," or "Affair partners are like cockroaches; turn on the light and they scatter," or "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be."

 

The affair recovery systems that preach widespread exposure are typically advising it as a tool to kill the affair. It's a system of shock and awe that uses shame to manipulate affair partners into stopping the affair and returning to the marriage. The reverse scenario (keeping the affair secret because the BS is either embarrased/ashamed, protective of the WS, or simply paralyzed with indecision) tends to enable the affair to continue. Because of this, some people say to tell anyone and everyone that will listen (the other BS, the AP's family, parents on both sides, the kids, relatives, priests/pastors, the grocery clerk, etc). In my view, this strategy is arguably effective in stopping an affair but I don't endorse it because it can have unintended consequences (especially with kids) and I wouldn't want my spouse to return only out of guilt and shame. But, none of that applies to you as the affair is long over.

 

What I do support is telling people for the sake of support. I leaned on family and friends and refused to ever feel guilt about it. I didn't expose the affair out of punishment or manipulation but simply because I needed my friends and family.

 

I also believe that there are some people that simply deserve to know. The most obvious person is the other BS and I don't care who tells them. Some people believe that the children deserve to know. Personally, I think that's debateable but fortunately, not really applicable to you. However, what you might consider is what relatives (particularly on your side) deserve to know. I'm not sure how your relatives would feel if they knew they'd spent the weekend offering kind condolences to your SIL if they knew she had been betraying your brother by sleeping with your husband.

 

I think it also merits some thought to consider why you'd help keep this secret at all. Who are you protecting by participating in the lie? Should they be protected? Why are you not being honest and authentic? What message does this send to the betrayers? If you are denying yourself from potential supporters, why are you doing that?

 

Personally, I think exposure to get support is fine. And I think some people need to know. But otherwise, I'm selective and prioritize thoughts about protecting kids from unnecesary trauma. But even with all that said, I have my limits. If your SiL can't respect your very reasonable and understandable boundaries, I wouldn't hesitate to stand up in front of everyone and annouce what a farce she's putting on. There's a limit to how much the BS needs to try to take the high road and how much hyperanalysis we should be expected to do. You didn't ask for any of this.

 

Confused enough about what to do now? Yeah, sorry. I'm not really sure how well I'm really contributing to this thread.

 

You're the bomb BetrayedH. You ALWAYS give pearls of wisdom. You contribute ALOT!

LH

[merrmeade]

I should add, I don't blame you for not informing your brother before he passed away. It was an awful scenario and you made a very conscientious and thoughtful decision. Sadly, you've still got more to make.

 

At the end of the day, just remember that you and your brother are the victims in this scenario.

Thanks for this, BH. I remember how strongly you campaigned for the truth at all costs.

 

I was never okay with it for so many reasons. We were all LYING all the time. All of us. SIL, my H were so easy with lying. I'd watch them and think of how they were. That was how they dealt with life, with everything. When they were diddling each other at the cabin they would get up, say "it was stupid" (never "wrong," just stupid), and go see my brother in the nursing home and LIE. Then, the infidelity came to light and everyone agreed officially to lie. The sons, the niece and nephews, me. Lying was what we all just shrugged our shoulders and did - for his sake. And what about ours?

 

I hated it. I'd look at him in his contorted state and agree I could not add to his pain and went on lying. But the fact that it was so easy for everyone turned my stomach. And the result is this, what we have today, now, this weekend. They practiced burying the truth so well, so long that they expect me to go on with them.

[Lion Heart]

Where he's great is in supporting me about her. He's understanding and tries to protect me. I think he sees me as easy prey because of my personality and tries to kind of coach me how not to be vulnerable. Daughter, same. It's rather hopeless though. I'm just not a natural bitch. (This is me, getting nervous ... )

 

Yes, it's a telling question and one that defines our R. The way WSs in general handle this reality is pivotal. There's our Mrs. Adams' position, which is the ideal remorseful WS. She is able at any moment to accept her culpability and the damage she caused. She gives no resistance, none, to any and all discussion about all aspects of it and her reaction is always deep, personal pain, which she conveys. She gives herself and expects no margin of excuse or explanation. She expects nothing.

 

My SIL is at the other end. She feels she's paid her dues for her mistake and expects everything to go back the way it was. She sees the current situation as my responsibility.

 

My H vacillates between these extremes. He sees the bitch for what she is and is trying to do and tries to protect me from her general predatory nature and from my generally vulnerable one. When I said to him recently that the difference between them regarding the A was that he never gave excuses, always accepted the responsibility and I could tell gave him a boost. He needed to be better than OW and to be told he's not scum. But then last night, when I shared my insight about myself and why I've resisted telling my brother, my daughter's references to the tawdry cheapness of family infidelity as a reality, and then looked at him and realized the second part of that insight. THAT is what is so crippling for him, what his toxic shame is about. I said softly that it simply was true. I wasn't trying to hit him over the head with it and repeated what I'd said above: He's always accepted responsibility, never gave excuses. He said sarcastically, "Yeah, right" and practically yelled at me, "I'm sorry!" I took the dog for a walk, came back and his behavior was apologetic. And that's how it goes. He cannot grovel.

 

Someone suggested that he tell my brother. He also offered to do this once. I wonder if he could actually go through with it. I have my doubts and think it would be like many, many times in his life where he says he'll do something he knows is right but right before (as in minutes) the reality of it, he explodes with the conflicting extremes of emotions. The "I'm sorry" above was that kind of explosion — hating that I was right, hating what it says about him and wanting to genuinely be able to say he was sorry. It comes out sounding anything but.

 

I've mixed description of behavior with explanation of what it means. I think if I were better able to go straight to what it means as my daughter is so apt with, I'd handle everyone and myself much better.

 

So back to what he does well. He helps me get ready for facing her. When I went to the church funeral in the fall, he tried to coach me some. He also agrees I should go NC with her. I've shown him 5 or 6 letters (emails) I've tried to write her. He has the same reaction each time: Short and to the point is better. He usually suggests something like: Your overtures imply that we have a relationship. We can never have a relationship. Please don't contact me again. I'm never able to leave it at that and keep adding explanation about WHAT SHE DID.

 

And that's where my daughter kind of concurred I thought yesterday. See, this conversation with her about it was rare and not one I regularly pursue with her. She asked me not to and I've respected that. But because of the upcoming event, we've had a couple of talks. She knows how I am. She knows how her father is. She knows how her aunt, brothers and cousins are. She just knows. And what she said was that I needed to stop letting myself be victimized and show everyone the higher moral road - for their good.

 

It's takes a special person to pull that off in such a crowd. Not sure I'm up to it, guys.

 

Mermeade, I'm hoping you don't feel pressure from anyone here to out the A full stop.

 

TBH you have enough to deal with right now. Adding another layer besides attending the memorial (outing the A to broader family or friends) is just something you can deal with as you wish at a later date.

 

Ofcourse IMO everyone should know. The big BUTT is here, for the pure sake of SUPPORT for you. I guess for the matter of truth & fact as well.

 

As I read the last couple of pages of this thread, things written by you rang a very strong bell with me. I want to share what I've learnt recently (from my psych BF, books and a website culminated). It's ESP since our WHs behaved in an extremely similar way but mine has changed in depth and shared this fearfully & tearfully only tonight.

 

Please take the time to digest this, read up, share and make new scripts in the future.

 

The underlying premise to my point is this: people you out the A to will usually respond only with what previous background knowledge THEY have when presented with (shocking) new information / paradigms. Esp when their preconceived concepts of a person is severely challenged. VERY few are capable of expressing empathy which results in compassion immediately off the bat. (Our DDs being exceptions to this. Mine started to vomit when I phoned her immediately after WH phoned me at the gym & told me of his A. Yours showing complete empathy also).

Depending on a person's depth of character is how they respond. Eg if a person has depth = empathy. If a person has flawed character = crazy speak reaction / anger at you. Too simple for broad generalizations but you get my drift. I'll illustrate this quickly: my "best friend" came to my home to comfort me on the night I found out about exWH As. 9 mth old DD etc. After listening for about 1 hour her response was this "I don't know what you're carrying on about. You'll just divorce him and marry someone else, heaps of people have asked you to marry them." What the ffff... actually I did. When I was expecting my twins to new H YEARS later, Drs told me to terminate them. She was the ONLY person to angrily reinforce Drs view. I went NC. Ex best friend was reacting from a premise of jealousy on both occasions. I didn't see this at all because I'm not a jealous person.

 

Ok. I predict NC of sorts MAY need to occur for you with anyone with similar responses ie. Cruel, uncaring etc.

Be prepared for this.

 

My main point is for you to investigate all you can about "Villifying the victim" George K. Simon I believe gives the best account. By TT or not telling the ENTIRE story. A WS gathers sympathy. They withold important information when relaying "evil" deeds so THEY can maintain their status quo ie other people's good opinion of them. They villify US who are actually the victims so that WE look real bad and they are excused for ANY behaviour.

 

Once I read this to my WH about 4w ago, he was horrified that he'd done just that for YEARS.

I had his number. WH only started coming clean with his family and friends with ONE fact of what he'd also done previous to his A and was met with shock, disgust etc. He has a WHOLE lot more to tell and has decided to do this as he processes his OWN behaviour. Plus new diagnoses etc.

 

From excerpts of the emails OW sent you, she was doing and will continue to try to do this very thing. I intuit your WH has done similar by snippets I gathered when you've written about him.

 

THIS is why you feel such injustice.

THIS may also be why said cousin and others are not sympathetic to you. And they should be. You're the victim here.

 

Get your power back by researching this!

 

Prepare your scripts at a later date.

 

I've gone NC with ALL my WHs family and friends UNTIL he's told them every damaging, anti-marraige thing he's done. The only reason why is because he very quickly ran to them and EAs to report my behaviours completely out of context. YES! For eg I've been crazy mad about WH getting us further into debt and dumping it on me. 4 busted credit cards etc. WH only told them about the "crazy me", never WHY I went crazy. He was attempting to maintain their saintly opinion of him and now some of them are bl**dy angry with him.

 

Sorry that was so long. I also picked 15 ticks off my bush ranging son (who I didn't terminate) in between writing this post! The fffffun! This post probably needs mountains of editing. Sorry.

 

Hope you got something that can help you as you expose the A over time.

 

Big hugs

Lion Heart.

[merrmeade]

That brought tears to my eyes, LH, but isn't midnight or something Down Under? Why are you picking ticks off your babies at this hour?

 

Anyway, I have to do some work today but I'm definitely going to read the things you mentioned and respond to several things later.

 

In the meantime, everyone, I'm still wavering about going tomorrow. I think i just compromised things and gave SIL justification to make everyone who knows blame me for the impasse or whatever they think it is. I wrote my nephew a too-long email, said too much. Probably anything was too much because all he did was ask me one question and received another twenty minutes of dialogue and a long email in response.

 

Then, I read Lion Heart's observations on how people process defamatory information about people they care about and especially how shamed people parse up and reinterpret information to gain sympathy and make themselves the victims and realized that, by putting certain things in writing and emailing them to my nephew, I've nailed my coffin. Here's what I sent him:

 

I was never okay with lying to your dad for

so

many reasons. We were all lying all the time. All of us. I realized how practiced they were at lying. They would be together, go see him, and lie. Then, the infidelity came to light and everyone officially agreed to lie. His sons, niece, nephews, me. Lying was what we all just shrugged our shoulders and did - for his sake. (What about ours?) I'd look at him in his contorted state and agree I could not add to his pain and went on lying. But the fact that it was

so

easy for everyone turned my stomach.

 

And the result is this, what we have today, now, this weekend. Everyone practiced burying the truth

so

well,

so

long that they don't even remember what it was and expect me to go on with them. It, therefore, becomes my problem. That's extended to implications about my personality, perhaps, or the virtues of forgiveness (as an expectation without its concomitant humility and remorse from the other party — which is something else but not forgiveness).

 

Okay, I'll write what [your cousin] said. Let me say that I don't talk to her about this situation much - at her request. She decided to speak up this time for some reason after I told her that you and I had talked. I said I thought you just don't get it, can't understand. She asked, "Why not?" I was surprised at this because she usually changes the subject and answered, "What? What do you mean?" and she flipped out and repeated, "Why not?" several times.

H

 

Here's a replay:

— Why doesn't he get it? How does not get it? How does he just dismiss it? It was trashy, cheap what they did; it was in a family. It should have been against everyone's moral fiber. Grandmother and Papa didn't teach or model that. Why can't you speak up instead of apologizing? You need to write a script or something that you have ready for these situations.

— Like what? What would I say?

— Like, "I don't have to accommodate or fix a breach I did not create. 'Fixing it ' would only insult my own moral fiber. It's not my place and I don't have to make allowances for those responsible for the destruction of our families. I'

m

not responsible for their lack of ability to acknowledge. How am I supposed to make better when they haven't even acknowledged what they did to me, to all of us. They should be pandering to me for the rest of their lives if there's any fixing to be done…!"

 

Then, she launched into what she thinks I should do, telling me to be a more vocal role model for the family. Every one of us knows very well what our moral legacy is,

so

why do I let someone else be the spokesperson. She wants me to hold everyone accountable when a line is crossed, open dialogue, remind them of what we believe and how we treat each other. I need to remember my mother — her standards, her humanity, and her ability to articulate what she believed and why it was important.

 

That's what your consin said, though I am NOT about to give the script she suggested or become the moral police. In the first place, I'

m

not sure I could bring it off. Second, the reason I could not bring it off is that I would feel unsupported and alone.

 

Now, we are here, and everyone wants, expects to bury the truth with your dad's ashes and asks that I do the same. I cannot. It's not just a high, moral road. It happened. It would be a disrespect to me, to his memory and to the memory of our parents to insist that we all act as if it didn't matter. (

btw

, do you know that, in your uncle's and mom's parlance, it was not "wrong" for a long time, just "stupid." Think about that for a minute.)

 

After I found out, things changed for [your uncle]. He didn't get it at first but had to deal with what a mess I was for a long time. He saw my suffering, read some and worked to make sure I knew he got it. That work? That's necessary. For the person that wronged, for the person that was wronged. Healing takes that work and understanding.

 

And though people can heal, it does not change or erase what was done. Your cousin is right in this regard. We as a family (the same as a society) do ourselves no favors by agreeing to pretend something did not happen or should not matter. We begin to erode as people once we dismiss and excuse because we don't want to be uncomfortable. It gets easier to bend values and blur more and more boundaries. Like lying to your dad.

 

It was tawdriness of it, in fact, that I realized yesterday is why I've never told Brother-#2 — not any other reason. I'

m

embarrassed for my husband because I know my brother's values and sensibilities, both brothers. They're the same as mine. A small anecdote here:

Once, a cousin suggested to me that your dad was doing something shady with the trusts. I asked [bro-2] what he thought, and he just said, "No. [bro-1] wouldn't do that."

People may glibly say such things about a lot of people, but Bro-2 and I can say it about Bro-1, about each other and know it is true. We don't lie (much), steal, commit adultery not because we have to think about it, but because we don't think about it. It's unthinkable. Your uncle and mom did the unthinkable, and, yes, of course, I forgive and understand the circumstances. Hell, I'

m

responsible for a big part of the circumstances. But that doesn't erase the abject grief, shock, and misery I went through or the disrespect I felt. Monogamy is a vow and a trust, and that was betrayed. I cannot forget, and I cannot be asked to forget. I cannot survive that additional disrespect. For that reason, the thought of being friends with [your mom] is insupportable for me.

Edited March 20, 2015 by merrmeade

[BetrayedH]

Thanks for this, BH. I remember how strongly you campaigned for the truth at all costs.

 

I was never okay with it for so many reasons. We were all LYING all the time. All of us. SIL, my H were so easy with lying. I'd watch them and think of how they were. That was how they dealt with life, with everything. When they were diddling each other at the cabin they would get up, say "it was stupid" (never "wrong," just stupid), and go see my brother in the nursing home and LIE. Then, the infidelity came to light and everyone agreed officially to lie. The sons, the niece and nephews, me. Lying was what we all just shrugged our shoulders and did - for his sake. And what about ours?

 

I hated it. I'd look at him in his contorted state and agree I could not add to his pain and went on lying. But the fact that it was so easy for everyone turned my stomach. And the result is this, what we have today, now, this weekend. They practiced burying the truth so well, so long that they expect me to go on with them.

 

Hopefully I didn't campaign too hard. I'm certainly an advocate for honesty and I try to hold myself accountable for having very few exceptions. That said, I've not been honest with my children (felt I had some mitigating circumstances for that) and see you as having been in a similar situation. You didn't lie because you're just all good with being a big fat liar but because you had really analyzed the issue up one side and down the other. There was no obviously correct answer and no positive outcome, regardless of your choice. You gave it a lot of thought and consideration and made the best choice you could. That kind of thought process should be engaged (something that serial liars and cheats don't bother wrestling with). I think your situation was a perfectly legitimate time to question the "honesty is always the best policy" rule and is arguably a valid exception. No judgement coming from me.