It's always the man's fault...

[trippi1432]

Well, in my last RS I was the one who did everything wrong.

 

 

I would have a list reeled off to me of 'incidents' each week which I had to justify.

 

 

I never knew before then that wanting time to do a load of my washing and hang it to dry was a need that was unacceptable.

Other things that were a problem were cooking, eating, cleaning, talking to friends or family, watching a TV show, reading a book, being at work, travelling to and from work, going food shopping and cutting my toe nails.

Having a shower was OK, as was sleeping but only between certain hours.

 

 

:roll eyes:

 

 

Good Lord, so you've met my ex-husband!?!?

 

 

Don't forget to add (or in my case) the only positive attention was when HE wanted sex.

 

 

Personally, my opinion of the spreadsheet is an immature way to go about it....not the spreadsheet itself, evidence perhaps, but the presentation/delivery and the failure to just have an adult conversation about it was.

 

 

"I open it up, and it's a sarcastic diatribe basically saying he won't miss me for the 10 days I'm gone. Attached is a SPREADSHEET of all the times he has tried to initiate sex since June 1st" , (The Concourse [online])

 

 

I'm sure some picked up on the lack of effective communication as well as the wife's lack of having sex with her husband no?? The delivery of it was to incite shame, guilt (perhaps to start a divorce discussion), but nowhere do I see this as being effective to actually fixing the issue in the marriage.

 

 

To the other topic about gender characterization, the true issue is this the only value she brings to the relationship for HIM? Is the only real value of being married today (or in an exclusive relationship) only about the sex? The quantity, the quality or the lack of?

 

 

I don't see this as a debate about a gender characterization, but a real issue in marriages/relationships today.

[xxoo]

Quantity doesn't usually equal quality

 

Maybe that is what the wife of spreadsheet guy is thinking.

[ThaWholigan]

Probably because frustrated men get on the net and vent more than women.

May they should do more than just vent on the internet then!

[Maleficent]

 

People say he should have divorced her and not play stupid games. I don't think this was a game. He lined out for her his frustration and as you can see, instead of her taking note, she ridicules the list. Well, maybe he shouldn't have even bothered to do the list - knowing what she's like. But then, she'll probably be crying on some message board about how her husband just "out of the blue" cheated and/or dumped her.

 

 

The problem is not with creating the list. The problem is how he made 'her' responsible for his lack of sex and worse is how he brought it up to her.

 

It's one thing to keep track of situations and how it happened to try and fix a possible problem, it is another to send this list to her work email while she is on her way to the airport for what seems to be work related travel.

 

He dumped this list on her while staying risk-free of the repercussions of bringing up the issue.

 

I'm all for equal responsibilities in relationship but this is clearly a case that belongs in the 'this is why we broke up' column.

[xxoo]

Yeah, a list or journal isn't a problem in isolation. I often recommend that someone keep track to identify patterns or relieve anxieties.

 

It's using the list as a weapon rather than a communication tool that is passive aggressive, wimpy, and childish.

[joystickd]

May they should do more than just vent on the internet then!

 

I totally agree. The thing is before they can do anything they do need to get that emotion out but its one thing to vent every once and a while but its another to consistently fuss about what women do.

[joystickd]

Yeah, a list or journal isn't a problem in isolation. I often recommend that someone keep track to identify patterns or relieve anxieties.

 

It's using the list as a weapon rather than a communication tool that is passive aggressive, wimpy, and childish.

 

I wonder if this woman just shut down and it was a way to get her attention to have the conversation. A lot of details missing. I don't know any man that would do a spreadsheet as one of the first thing maybe as a very last resort

[Taramere]

She removed her post from Reddit, but the summary is there. It says that he sent her an inflammatory email (with the spreadsheet attached) as she was driving to the airport, then cut contact. Refused to take any calls from her. That doesn't sound like somebody who wants an honest dialogue about why sex is tailing off to once every 10 days or so. It doesn't sound like somebody who wants to hear their partner's side of things. It sounds like somebody who just wants to go on the attack.

 

This story did actually get discussed in some serious mainstream newspapers, God help us. Here's the Guardian with a male view versus female view

 

My wife keeps saying 'No sex tonight': the spreadsheet that lays it all bare | Life and style | The Guardian

 

They seem to know more about this than we do. Presumably because the woman hadn't deleted her post by that point.

 

Are the man's sexpectations reasonable? According to her account, until she started going to the gym, "We averaged 3-5 times a week I'd say? Including a non-reciprocated blowjob thrown in here and there." If we assume a rate of four per week, that's a 42-hour frequency, even if you disregard the blowjobs.

 

The Daily Mail has further insight into their private lives...

 

She explained the couple had been together for five years in total but been married for last two. Although they had no kids, they bought a house together five months ago.

 

'Our lives have been crazy busy,' she wrote. 'We spent all spring renovating our new house. At my job I was given nearly double my usual workload after some of my colleagues were laid off. I gained some weight in the winter and have been busting my a** at the gym to get rid of it.'

 

We've all seen complaints on here about wives who gain weight and are too lazy to try to lose it. So according to this she's straining under a high workload, she's trying to lose weight and the two of them have been working on house renovations. Since the average for couples (sex wise) is generally reported to be once or twice a week, they were below average - but there seem to be some reasons for that relating to various external stresses...and they certainly weren't in a sexless marriage.

 

So this tail off from 3 to 5 times a week plus unreciprocated blow jobs to 2 or 3 times a month must have been pretty recent from what she's said - and coincided with her going to the gym more (and perhaps overdoing it as people are often inclined to do when they start going to a gym).

 

I've got to say that if a man presented a situation on here whereby his workload had doubled, he'd been involved in major home renovations, was trying to lose weight he'd gained over the winter - and (while on his way to a 10 day business trip) received a nasty "I won't miss you" email from his wife with that spreadsheet attached, I would feel sorry for him.

 

So yeah, while I don't condone the wife uploading that spreadsheet (though assuming it's anonymous it's really no different from people bitching about their marriages on here), under the circumstances outlined I feel sorry for her.

[joystickd]

She removed her post from Reddit, but the summary is there. It says that he sent her an inflammatory email (with the spreadsheet attached) as she was driving to the airport, then cut contact. Refused to take any calls from her. That doesn't sound like somebody who wants an honest dialogue about why sex is tailing off to once every 10 days or so. It doesn't sound like somebody who wants to hear their partner's side of things. It sounds like somebody who just wants to go on the attack.

 

This story did actually get discussed in some serious mainstream newspapers, God help us. Here's the Guardian with a male view versus female view

 

My wife keeps saying 'No sex tonight': the spreadsheet that lays it all bare | Life and style | The Guardian

 

They seem to know more about this than we do. Presumably because the woman hadn't deleted her post by that point.

 

 

 

The Daily Mail has further insight into their private lives...

 

She explained the couple had been together for five years in total but been married for last two. Although they had no kids, they bought a house together five months ago.

 

 

 

We've all seen complaints on here about wives who gain weight and are too lazy to try to lose it. So according to this she's straining under a high workload, she's trying to lose weight and the two of them have been working on house renovations. Since the average for couples (sex wise) is generally reported to be once or twice a week, they were below average - but there seem to be some reasons for that relating to various external stresses...and they certainly weren't in a sexless marriage.

 

So this tail off from 3 to 5 times a week plus unreciprocated blow jobs to 2 or 3 times a month must have been pretty recent from what she's said - and coincided with her going to the gym more (and perhaps overdoing it as people are often inclined to do when they start going to a gym).

 

I've got to say that if a man presented a situation on here whereby his workload had doubled, he'd been involved in major home renovations, was trying to lose weight he'd gained over the winter - and (while on his way to a 10 day business trip) received a nasty "I won't miss you" email from his wife with that spreadsheet attached, I would feel sorry for him.

 

So yeah, while I don't condone the wife uploading that spreadsheet (though assuming it's anonymous it's really no different from people bitching about their marriages on here), under the circumstances outlined I feel sorry for her.

How do we know this wasn't discussed before email? Seems the email would be a reaction to what's going on. No man would send an email like that to his wife unless he was at his wits end about the situation. In the end they both should have communicated and worked at a compromise.

[Taramere]

How do we know this wasn't discussed before email?

 

We don't know that.

 

No man would send an email like that to his wife unless he was at his wits end about the situation.

 

We don't know that either. There are plenty of unreasonable, narcissistic people of both genders out there who do lots of stupid, unfair things.

 

If this thread is going to reach a conclusion that involves accepting the premise that "no man would (behave unfairly/dishonourably)" then the title will have to be changed to "It's always the woman's fault..." because essentially you're asking us to believe and accept the notion that there are certain codes and standards of behaviour that no man falls short of. And I think all of us who have spent any amount of time on this planet know that just isn't the case.

 

Also, at his wits' end? Really? There are people out there struggling with immense debts, the threat of homelessness, or with partners who have major health problems, or are having affairs, or are physically abusing them...and this guy is at his wits' end because sex has tailed off from 3 to 5 times per week plus blow jobs a few months ago, to 3 times in 5 weeks during a very hectic spell in their lives.

 

If that has sent him to his wits' end, then I hate to think how he's going to deal with some of what life will throw at him over the next few decades.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Taramere

[joystickd]

We don't know that.

 

 

 

We don't know that either. There are plenty of unreasonable, narcissistic people of both genders out there who do lots of stupid, unfair things.

 

If this thread is going to reach a conclusion that involves accepting the premise that "no man would (behave unfairly/dishonourably)" then the title will have to be changed to "It's always the woman's fault..." because essentially you're asking us to believe and accept the notion that there are certain codes and standards of behaviour that no man falls short of. And I think all of us who have spent any amount of time on this planet know that just isn't the case.

I'm not saying that but we can't say the its anyone's fault. I'm saying how do we know they didn't have the conversation. He probably reacted that way because usually no sex is a symptom of a bigger issue. Honestly if she had communicated that she was too busy (which is a possibility she did but don't know) then maybe they could have worked something out like going to gym together or work out a schedule to spend time together. I get the feeling they both wanted to end it. The busyness was the typical woman way of hoping the man would catch the hint.

[GemmaUK]

How do we know this wasn't discussed before email? Seems the email would be a reaction to what's going on. No man would send an email like that to his wife unless he was at his wits end about the situation. In the end they both should have communicated and worked at a compromise.

 

I have to say that I don't think any man would have sent that if he HAD communicated about it - it doesn't make any sense.

 

 

We also don't know anything about how he was asking, whether he was still 'dating' his wife and vice versa, what each of their love styles were.

 

 

The info Taramere has posted certainly puts a whole new slant on things. I would also feel sorry for someone going through all of that and then receiving that in a work email.

 

 

Stress can seriously affect people, male and female.

Sometimes the last thing someone wants right before sleep is to get jiggy.

 

 

When myself and my LT partner were dealing with rough times (not between us but things going on for each of us that we had no control over) we realised what was going on and changed things around.

Getting in from work became great fun!

[joystickd]

 

Also, at his wits' end? Really? There are people out there struggling with immense debts, the threat of homelessness, or with partners who have major health problems, or are having affairs, or are physically abusing them...and this guy is at his wits' end because sex has tailed off from 3 to 5 times per week plus blow jobs a few months ago, to 3 times in 5 weeks during a very hectic spell in their lives.

 

If that has sent him to his wits' end, then I hate to think how he's going to deal with some of what life will throw at him over the next few decades.

 

Yeah wits end with the relationship. Hell people do get frustrated when they feel they meet someone's needs and its not being reciprocated especially if they feel they exhausted everything they thought they could do. Its easy for us to say what should have been done but we are not them and the perceived options for them could have been different and limited.

[joystickd]

I have to say that I don't think any man would have sent that if he HAD communicated about it - it doesn't make any sense.

 

 

We also don't know anything about how he was asking, whether he was still 'dating' his wife and vice versa, what each of their love styles were.

 

 

The info Taramere has posted certainly puts a whole new slant on things. I would also feel sorry for someone going through all of that and then receiving that in a work email.

 

 

Stress can seriously affect people, male and female.

Sometimes the last thing someone wants right before sleep is to get jiggy.

 

 

When myself and my LT partner were dealing with rough times (not between us but things going on for each of us that we had no control over) we realised what was going on and changed things around.

Getting in from work became great fun!

 

Yeah some would. If they were really frustrated and the woman didn't see it as an issue.

[Taramere]

Yeah wits end with the relationship. Hell people do get frustrated when they feel they meet someone's needs and its not being reciprocated especially if they feel they exhausted everything they thought they could do. Its easy for us to say what should have been done but we are not them and the perceived options for them could have been different and limited.

 

As Gemma said, sending that spreadsheet isn't suggestive of any attempts at discussion having taken place. After all, wouldn't a detailed and accurate spreadsheet also contain some reference to such discussions? If it doesn't, then it's not much of a spreadsheet is it?

 

Look at the columns: 1. Date 2. Sex? 3. Excuse

 

Where's "problem identified" or "action taken"? Or even just "Discussion" (column to be ticked or crossed to denote whether any discussion about the incident complained of occurred)..

 

I tell you what. If that guy were sacking/firing an employee based on a spreadsheet that looked like that, I wouldn't fancy his chances trying to justify it before a tribunal - because if anything ever looked like a "setting another person up for failure" exercise, that spreadsheet would be it. The way it's laid out tells the story. This was a spreadsheet he recorded over a period of some 6 weeks with the clear intention of confronting his wife at the end of that 6 week period.

 

Now I'm sure we all know how important it is for people to be right. How people will often sabotage themselves and their relationships just to be right. Admittedly based on nothing more than my experience of people and my knowledge of human nature generally, I would suggest that a guy who has embarked on a little project of amassing "frigid wife" data to confront his wife with is probably not going to be approaching his wife for sex in the most loving or friendly - or indeed appealing - of manners. The guy's amassing evidence against her for a future argument, for goodness sake. It's right there in the way the spreadsheet is laid out. And we're really supposed to buy the notion that while he was compiling that data, he was also attempting to build a more loving, trusting and communicative relationship with the Missus?

Edited November 23, 2014 by Taramere

[GemmaUK]

Yeah some would. If they were really frustrated and the woman didn't see it as an issue.

 

What would a guy gain from doing something like that though?

[joystickd]

As Gemma said, sending that spreadsheet isn't suggestive of any attempts at discussion having taken place. After all, wouldn't a detailed and accurate spreadsheet also contain some reference to such discussions? If it doesn't, then it's not much of a spreadsheet is it?

 

Look at the columns: 1. Date 2. Sex? 3. Excuse

 

Where's "problem identified" or "action taken"? Or even just "Discussion" (column to be ticked or crossed to denote whether any discussion about the incident complained of occurred)..

 

I tell you what. If that guy were sacking/firing an employee based on a spreadsheet that looked like that, I wouldn't fancy his chances trying to justify it before a tribunal - because if anything ever looked like a "setting another person up for failure" exercise, that spreadsheet would be it. The way it's laid out tells the story. This was a spreadsheet he recorded over a period of some 6 weeks with the clear intention of confronting his wife at the end of that 6 week period.

 

Now I'm sure we all know how important it is for people to be right. How people will often sabotage themselves and their relationships just to be right. Admittedly based on nothing more than my experience of people and my knowledge of human nature generally, I would suggest that a guy who has embarked on a little project of amassing "frigid wife" data to confront his wife with is probably not going to be approaching his wife for sex in the most loving or friendly - or indeed appealing - of manners. The guy's amassing evidence against her for a future argument, for goodness sake. It's right there in the way the spreadsheet is laid out. And we're really supposed to buy the notion that while he was compiling that data, he was also attempting to build a more loving, trusting and communicative relationship with the Missus?

 

A job? That is a bad example. Honestly issues in a relationship are more emotional than a job conflict. No one thinks clearly in those relationship conflicts. I bet you have before so you should understand. Like I said its easy for us to say we should do this or that but we are not them. They are working with the options they have

[joystickd]

What would a guy gain from doing something like that though?

 

In his mind logically shedding light on the issue. Your best bet if you could would be to ask him

[GemmaUK]

I would suggest that a guy who has embarked on a little project of amassing "frigid wife" data to confront his wife with is probably not going to be approaching his wife for sex in the most loving or friendly - or indeed appealing - of manners. The guy's amassing evidence against her for a future argument, for goodness sake. It's right there in the way the spreadsheet is laid out. And we're really supposed to buy the notion that while he was compiling that data, he was also attempting to build a more loving, trusting and communicative relationship with the Missus?

 

 

Can't argue with this.

It was a pre-meditated 'attack' basically.

[joystickd]

Can't argue with this.

It was a pre-meditated 'attack' basically.

 

And your proof of that GemmaUK. Honestly you can't say that too many missing details

[GemmaUK]

So a man may well send this kind of thing to a work email when his wife is off on a ten day business trip. Bearing in mind the possibility that she may also be auto-forwarding her mails.

His reason is to 'logically' shed light on the issue and hope for some conversations and reconciliations on the subject while she is busy and away on a ten day business trip?

Surely if he wanted to shed light on it it would be better if she were in the same location.

Then again, his reason for sending it was to say that he wasn't going to miss her.

So shedding light and saying he isn't going to miss her don't add up/make sense either.

 

 

Would it not be more logical to end the relationship if he was that unhappy about things?

 

 

I have no proof, perhaps his list with dates and times was made up right there and then at the time he sent the mail.

[BlueIris]

Sending a list of faults or failures to someone as they leave for a business trip doesn’t show good faith attempt to address and resolve, in my book. They can’t talk about it then. But he’s clearly upset, so it has to be addressed. The only options I see are to (1) shut it out of her mind until she gets back, (2) spend her time and energy on the trip calling and/or skyping with him to try to work it out as soon as possible, or (3) send him an email that she’ll think about it and hope they can talk about it when she gets back, and then actually think about it when she’s not busy with work. Her posting it online doesn’t help any. All it does is add more fuel to the flames. These two look finished to me unless they can (and want to) put their swords down.

I don't understand how this is about men always being at fault, though. To me it just likes like two people stacking their cannonballs.

[Taramere]

And your proof of that GemmaUK. Honestly you can't say that too many missing details

 

The proof is right there in the spreadsheet. In the way it's laid out. Date, sex? Excuse. And it is indeed relevant to compare this to a job - because the guy himself has elected to take the kind of approach, to his wife, that you would normally expect to be restricted to the corporate environment.

 

A job? That is a bad example. Honestly issues in a relationship are more emotional than a job conflict.

 

Of course. Exactly. I agree with that. One shouldn't approach relationship conflicts as though they were as straightforward and easily dealt with as professional ones. The issues in a relationship are far more complex and emotional. Which is precisely why they have to be approached with some emotional intelligence and in the manner of a human being rather than a robot. Or, even worse, with layers of fury repressed under some ludicrous spreadsheet employed in an embarrassingly inappropriate attempt to be clinical and businesslike sounding about something as emotionally charged as a marriage in trouble.

 

And that's why this guy is being criticised for his spreadsheets. Because that is not the way you broach a sensitive discussion with an intimate partner.

 

Going back to something the OP said

 

I guess another good reason for the "visual" from the spreadsheets is that women communicate differently from men. On my job one time, I circled in red and put sticky notes where on a subordinate's document I wanted her to review and rewrite. Instead of her taking note, all she turned it into is how her feeeelings were hurt. I don't argue feelings, I argue the facts. The spreadsheet was needed so he could focus his wife on what's going on, but again, she and others turned into "oooh, look at the baby crying over how he's not getting laid".

 

That's a post where somebody seems to be patting themselves on the back for approach that's very clearly lacking in emotional intelligence. "Look how stereotypically unemotional-guy-like I am, focusing on the facts rather than feelings."

 

Which is fine in the workplace, where facts rather than feelings are what people must focus on. But as you're saying yourself - in a situation like this marriage, you're looking at highly emotional issues. And it's emotional for both sides. No use in anybody retreating behind the usual crap about "why are women so emotional?" Men are also emotional in these situations.

 

But this guy very evidently doesn't know how to deal with those emotions. So instead, out comes the spreadsheet and he gets to work compiling a case against his wife. Which might give him some falsely reassuring sense of being organised and businesslike about the whole thing, but at the end of the day all it's going to ensure is that he destroys what's left of his marriage up - probably to a state beyond repair.

 

And that's what he's being criticised for. Not for absolutely everything that ever went wrong in that marriage. We don't know about that - but what we do (or should, if we have any sense) know is that you never, ever should furnish an intimate partner with a list of complaints in a spreadsheet as though Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory is your role model in life. Not unless you want to be mocked all over Reddit.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Taramere

[joystickd]

The proof is right there in the spreadsheet. In the way it's laid out. Date, sex? Excuse. And it is indeed relevant to compare this to a job - because the guy himself has elected to take the kind of approach, to his wife, that you would normally expect to be restricted to the corporate environment.

 

 

 

Of course. Exactly. I agree with that. One shouldn't approach relationship conflicts as though they were as straightforward and easily dealt with as professional ones. The issues in a relationship are far more complex and emotional. Which is precisely why they have to be approached with some emotional intelligence and in the manner of a human being rather than a robot. Or, even worse, with layers of fury repressed under some ludicrous spreadsheet employed in an embarrassingly inappropriate attempt to be clinical and businesslike sounding about something as emotionally charged as a marriage in trouble.

 

And that's why this guy is being criticised for his spreadsheets. Because that is not the way you broach a sensitive discussion with an intimate partner.

 

Going back to something the OP said

 

 

 

That's a post where somebody seems to be patting themselves on the back for approach that's very clearly lacking in emotional intelligence. "Look how stereotypically unemotional-guy-like I am, focusing on the facts rather than feelings."

 

Which is fine in the workplace, where facts rather than feelings are what people must focus on. But as you're saying yourself - in a situation like this marriage, you're looking at highly emotional issues. And it's emotional for both sides. No use in anybody retreating behind the usual crap about "why are women so emotional?" Men are also emotional in these situations.

 

But this guy very evidently doesn't know how to deal with those emotions. So instead, out comes the spreadsheet and he gets to work compiling a case against his wife. Which might give him some falsely reassuring sense of being organised and businesslike about the whole thing, but at the end of the day all it's going to ensure is that he destroys what's left of his marriage up - probably to a state beyond repair.

 

And that's what he's being criticised for. Not for absolutely everything that ever went wrong in that marriage. We don't know about that - but what we do (or should, if we have any sense) know is that you never, ever should furnish an intimate partner with a list of complaints in a spreadsheet as though Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory is your role model in life. Not unless you want to be mocked all over Reddit.

He was only doing what he knew. Like I said its easy for us to say its wrong because we are not him. There was a method to the madness in his mind. Maybe they argued about it and she didn't remember doing that or denied it. He had some reason why he did it and knowing that would really shed some light to this issue.

[carhill]

Another perspective is that, if they're still hurling missiles at each other, that indicates a modicum of desire to engage, even if unhealthily. Otherwise, the spreadsheet wouldn't have been created, an irreconcilable differences lawsuit would have been filed and the guy would be getting his sex from any number of women he might otherwise fancy. People who don't care make their former partner irrelevant and move on without comment or rancor.

 

There's no known force in the universe which compelled the man to form a spreadsheet outlining his marital sex life and sending it to his wife, nor is there any force which compelled either them to take any actions prior or subsequent to the publication of that spreadsheet. Each made choices, all along the line, and from long before the formation and publication of the spreadsheet, and are responsible, jointly and severally, for those choices. Society, and us, of course, are welcomed to our opinions of how such responsibility is apportioned. I'm reminded of the words of our MC when he opined that there's my story, my spouse's (at the time) story and then there's the truth. We're each responsible for our portion of that truth.