I love him but I don't know what he's thinking anymore

[Divasu]

What a nightmare (the part in bold). I fear this happening, and yes, total slap in the face.

 

I guess I just don't get the timeline for commitment, or why it's set in stone that if someone doesn't commit right away, it means they don't ever want a commitment with you. My brother has been in a great relationship for years, and it took them months to commit. He says it takes a while to really get to know someone and take that step. This guy didn't commit with his ex until 3 months in. 3 weeks really is EARLY, as is 6 weeks. Personally, if I really liked a guy, and he asked for commitment at 3 weeks, I'd be a little sketched out. I've had it happen. I agreed to it and stuck with it long enough to let the initial "freak-out" pass, but it definitely threw me for a loop, even though I really liked the guy.

 

Well when you frame it in the way your brother did, yes, I can agree with that line of thinking too. The problem is if/when the emotional components of the two individuals, aren't in alignment. As what happened herein.

 

See, if you were REALLY into said man in your hypothetical example, you'd probably be happy with his level of devotion at three weeks in. And, welcome it.

 

So, it all goes back to the progression of feelings and capabilities. Similar to the analogy of hammering a square into a hole.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Very true.

 

AlwaysPuzzled

Watch this.

 

Okay, watched it. He makes good points.

 

In this one

he says there are things you can do to get a man to commit, the most important of which is not to be so available. I've seen this written about before, and it makes sense.

 

With the one you linked, he's saying that no man is going to commit when he gets everything he wants without the commitment.

 

It really does seem like you have to "play the game" ya know? And if you don't do it *just right* you're doomed. It's exhausting and frustrating and depressing, really.

 

To me, this guy is backing up what I've been saying -- that a man WILL balk at commitment.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

See, if you were REALLY into said man in your hypothetical example, you'd probably be happy with his level of devotion at three weeks in. And, welcome it.

 

I've had times in the past where I was really into someone, and he brought up making it official, and I felt momentarily icked out. It made me take a step back emotionally. I have a hard time saying no, so I said yes (and I did like him, and I do have such a fear of losing people), but internally, it set me back a bit. With one guy, I got over it. With another guy, I didn't get over it, and I lost interest. I think it was too soon to put it all on the line like that.

 

So, it all goes back to the progression of feelings and capabilities.

 

Well, this is what I'm wondering about. Can't feelings progress over time? It seems like the more time you spend with someone, and the more you open up to each other, the closer you feel (if things are going well). So with him, if I had continued past the 6 weeks, and didn't end things, might we have gotten closer and he could have wanted to commit within the following few weeks or months?

[Itspointless]

I really like this exchange AlwaysPuzzled, thank you. You are also the first on this board who I see answering everybody. I do not know how you manage to do that. Even if English was my first language I wouldn’t be able to follow that example.

I really think it hurts the worst when short relationships fall apart, way more so than long relationships. If you're with someone for a long time, you at least get to see all their bad points, and all the little things they do to annoy you. With short relationships, you only see their good side, as they're on their best behavior during that time, and you haven't gotten the chance to fully know them. So it feels like they were a perfect person with no flaws, almost. With a long relationship, you know you've put the time in to give it a good try, and you know what didn't work. With a short relationship, you're always left wondering what could have been.

Well it certainly did not help that the things I had noticed only were very small. Her 180 on the other hand made me realize that I had to see that behavior also as a part of her personality. Besides that she was surprised that I had been worried about her condition. Can you believe it? It baffled me.

I can see that. […] I dated a guy for six months once who was exceedingly calm and patient. It eventually got on my nerves, because I simply wanted him to react to something - ANYTHING - instead of just passively accepting everything. This is probably not how you were, as you tried to communicate and talk about things.

No I do not passively accept everything, but is actually is something I try to be very actively aware of

You should feel very proud of your strength It's REALLY hard to overcome the urge to apologize or explain. I'm glad you left it without doing that.

Thank you! Makes me look at a new way at it. I guess your right, it showed strength. I did explain in the letter though, but I have carefully written it to not apologize in any way where it was not needed

So you think that my anxiety and avoidance just sped up the inevitable end. […] My natural tendency really is to blame myself, always. That's one reason I keep analyzing him, because if I don't constantly remind myself of his faults, I just take on all the blame.

Yes. Well, you know what you need to be aware of I also have the tendency to keep analysing. For me it works to kill again and again all the remnants of hope.

Breaking up with someone on their birthday is almost sadistic, isn't it?

It is hurtful behavior the least. Dismissive-avoidant like to test people, see if they abandon them. I would say that he deserved to be abandoned after such an act.

To me, this guy is backing up what I've been saying -- that a man WILL balk at commitment.

Certain man are like that. There are also heaps of good man who won’t do such things.

[chimpanA-2-chimpanZ]

Okay, watched it. He makes good points.

 

In this one

he says there are things you can do to get a man to commit, the most important of which is not to be so available. I've seen this written about before, and it makes sense.

 

With the one you linked, he's saying that no man is going to commit when he gets everything he wants without the commitment.

 

It really does seem like you have to "play the game" ya know? And if you don't do it *just right* you're doomed. It's exhausting and frustrating and depressing, really.

 

To me, this guy is backing up what I've been saying -- that a man WILL balk at commitment.

 

This is an example of selection bias. You are watching a video targeted at a small portion of women who are actively pursuing men who will not commit to them. These people are not representative of the general population. Furthermore, one person saying something on the Internet should not be accepted as gospel (and the credulity you lend all these sources is a little disconcerting). You don't have to "play the game" with mature, emotionally healthy adults. I'm a far cry from perfect but I've never played games and neither have any of the men I've dated.

 

Asking for commitment is not hard, nor is it solely the woman's responsibility. Three of my former boyfriends have been the ones to raise the subject. In one case it was as simple as him saying "ChimpanA, what are we doing here?" Sure, sometimes it took a few months to go from exclusive dating to boyfriend/girlfriend, but all of these men liked me enough to stop pursuing other women. To suggest that I should've waited til they were more comfortable, or been coy with them, or played games, is just suggesting that I don't deserve someone who likes me that much. Please! I know I'm worth someone who wants to be with me. Aren't you?

 

Think about it from a practical perspective: it's also risky to get into a sexual situation without some kind of commitment. Condoms do not protect 100% against most STDs, and they don't necessarily protect at all against herpes. It's not at all unreasonable, clingy or desperate to ask for exclusivity before having sex.

 

You can believe that most men are scared of commitment, but that doesn't make it so. All you're doing is bringing your expectations so low they're practically underground.

Edited November 30, 2014 by chimpanA-2-chimpanZ

[elaine567]

This makes sense to me I just read it on another thread.

 

Regarding men and commitment

 

"we do commit, but only when we find a woman who enriches our lives, makes life better with her than on our own."

 

I am sure the same could be said for women too.

[snowflakes88]

You "love him," but you don't need a committed relationship or any assurances about the future? Come on, girl -- you have to be real with yourself, if nothing else. When you start lying to yourself about what you want, contorting your desires because you KNOW the other person doesn't want the same thing you do, and lowering your standards to a level commensurate with the crumbs the other person is maaaaaaaaaaaaybe willing to give you if you badger and plead enough -- you already lost. BIG time.

 

In one breath, you insist that he could come back because nobody here knows what he's thinking. But in the next, you've used the internet to diagnose and analyze him, and decided that YOU know what he will and won't do, even if he reeeeeeeeeally cares, based on your amateur Google diagnosis. How do you reconcile those lines of thought?

 

So many of us have been where you are, which is why this is so hard to watch.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

I really like this exchange AlwaysPuzzled, thank you. You are also the first on this board who I see answering everybody. I do not know how you manage to do that. Even if English was my first language I wouldn’t be able to follow that example.

 

Aw, thanks I didn't know English wasn't your first language. I love and appreciate your input!

 

Well it certainly did not help that the things I had noticed only were very small. Her 180 on the other hand made me realize that I had to see that behavior also as a part of her personality. Besides that she was surprised that I had been worried about her condition. Can you believe it? It baffled me.

 

Very true. These people who blow hot and cold and do complete 180s are the worst. It's SO confusing when someone seems to have two completely different personalities. Everyone has a range of moods, but when you have someone who is either all good or all bad in any given moment, it's impossible to understand.

 

No I do not passively accept everything, but is actually is something I try to be very actively aware of

 

It's good that you know to be aware of it. Being actively aware will hopefully eventually change our habits! We have to form new habits to replace the old.

 

Thank you! Makes me look at a new way at it. I guess your right, it showed strength. I did explain in the letter though, but I have carefully written it to not apologize in any way where it was not needed

 

It definitely showed strength! I've always kind of felt a need to have the last word, but I think it shows more strength to just accept something and not continue to try to add to it or correct it. Leave it hanging and let them wonder what you're thinking. As for apologizing, that's a VERY hard habit to break, and something else to be actively aware of. Sometimes we apologize just to be polite, or be the bigger person, or make the other person feel better - it doesn't always mean that we think we were completely in the wrong. But I guess it's often perceived as such by the other party.

 

Yes. Well, you know what you need to be aware of I also have the tendency to keep analysing. For me it works to kill again and again all the remnants of hope.

 

Thanks for understanding. It does serve its purpose. Hopefully we will one day no longer feel the need, and can just let it go.

 

It is hurtful behavior the least. Dismissive-avoidant like to test people, see if they abandon them. I would say that he deserved to be abandoned after such an act.

 

And yet she didn't abandon him. She taught him, by taking him back over and over and over again for 3 years, that he could do anything he damn well pleased with no fear of consequences. His other on-and-off-again ex has probably taught him the same thing. So he KNOWS that women fall madly in love with him and keep coming back no matter how he treats them. I fell right in line by doing the same thing the first time. No matter how much he ignored me, I kept trying. And then when we did see each other again, I didn't even want to talk about it. A friend of mine pointed out that in that moment, I taught him to treat me badly. So true.

 

I think I read that dismissive-avoidants fear abandonment and rejection deep down. So if they test someone, and that person continues to stay with them and doesn't abandon them, will they eventually let their guard down? It seems a catch-22... if the person sticks with them, it builds trust for the dismissive... but the dismissive would also lose respect for the person who continues to stick around for poor treatment, right? I don't know the best way to handle these "tests."

 

Certain man are like that. There are also heaps of good man who won’t do such things.

 

I just hope I can find one, and be attracted to him when I do.

 

*******************************

Question for you (and I almost hate to ask it, because it's going to sound so weak, but here goes...):

 

Just to recap, this guy has learned throughout his relationship history that women will stick around for years while he comes and goes. He's learned that he doesn't have to commit, or treat them well all the time, as long as he treats them well some of the time. He's learned that they will still be there waiting for him whenever it suits him. I followed this pattern the first time, and again the second time when I said "goodbye" but went right back two days later. I'm sure he may not have expected me to stick with it the final time, but I have.

 

SO, my question is -- since I finally showed some self-respect and self-control, and I walked away after pointing out that it's not cool how he treats people and that I wouldn't stick around for it, and told him that I wouldn't allow him to come in and out of my life -- is there any chance that this will raise my value in his eyes, and he may come back around and do better? I know he liked me, but he also knew that he could get away with anything, so he didn't HAVE to do any better. Is there any chance that this will eventually make him rethink things? And if so, how long would that take, you think?

 

***for anyone who thinks this is a weak, pathetic question, please feel free not to answer it. I'm interested in itspointless's answer on it, since he understands the attachment theory dynamics***

[AlwaysPuzzled]

This is an example of selection bias. You are watching a video targeted at a small portion of women who are actively pursuing men who will not commit to them. These people are not representative of the general population. Furthermore, one person saying something on the Internet should not be accepted as gospel (and the credulity you lend all these sources is a little disconcerting).

 

I can assure you that I'm not taking ANYTHING as gospel. The stuff the guy said in the video is the same thing I've read over and over and over again in relationship articles. I'm not naive enough to accept one person's view on anything. It's simply food for thought.

 

You don't have to "play the game" with mature, emotionally healthy adults. I'm a far cry from perfect but I've never played games and neither have any of the men I've dated.

 

What about with immature, emotionally unhealthy adults? Not all of us are secure enough to not have walls up. Not all of us are good enough in relationships to just go with it and have it work out. A lot of people just don't know what the hell they're doing, me included. It would be soooo nice not to have to play "games", but if what I'm doing naturally isn't working, what then? I have to do something else.

 

Asking for commitment is not hard, nor is it solely the woman's responsibility. Three of my former boyfriends have been the ones to raise the subject. In one case it was as simple as him saying "ChimpanA, what are we doing here?" Sure, sometimes it took a few months to go from exclusive dating to boyfriend/girlfriend, but all of these men liked me enough to stop pursuing other women.

 

This guy wasn't pursuing other women that first time (don't know about the second time). We met on a dating site, and he immediately quit logging in the day after we met. I kept logging in for a week or so, and saw that he wasn't, so I deleted my profile. I looked a couple of times later on, just to see, and he hadn't logged in a single time the whole time we were seeing each other. Plus, he was always either with me or talking to me. So we were exclusive without the title.

 

Asking for commitment, for me, is SO hard. I'm scared of the answer, and scared to put on the pressure. If I ever have a relationship again, I'm coming back here for help and guidance through those first few uncertain months!!!

 

To suggest that I should've waited til they were more comfortable, or been coy with them, or played games, is just suggesting that I don't deserve someone who likes me that much. Please! I know I'm worth someone who wants to be with me. Aren't you?

 

Right now, my self-esteem is so out of wack that I guess I don't really know I'm worthy of it, sadly enough. Just being honest. I'm glad that you feel confident with yourself.

 

Think about it from a practical perspective: it's also risky to get into a sexual situation without some kind of commitment. Condoms do not protect 100% against most STDs, and they don't necessarily protect at all against herpes. It's not at all unreasonable, clingy or desperate to ask for exclusivity before having sex.

 

This is true. Like I said above though, we were only seeing each other. But yes, I do agree with you here. Maybe from this point forward, I should just never again have sex outside of a committed relationship. Sex wasn't that big of an issue with him, because like I said, he was always too drunk to follow through. I was glad, because it took that whole worry off the table! That was actually one of the things I appreciated most about him, because with most men, they're ALL about sex. It gets old and annoying.

 

The second time with him, he was wanting sex a lot more than the first, and I just kind of avoided it because I didn't want to have it with the way things were so uncertain.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

This makes sense to me I just read it on another thread.

 

Regarding men and commitment

 

"we do commit, but only when we find a woman who enriches our lives, makes life better with her than on our own."

 

I am sure the same could be said for women too.

 

Makes sense. How long does it take for a guy to realize that a woman makes life better? Seems like it would take quite a while, and that they'd have to experience going through different things together to get the full scope of how well their lives will mesh.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

You "love him," but you don't need a committed relationship or any assurances about the future? Come on, girl -- you have to be real with yourself, if nothing else. When you start lying to yourself about what you want, contorting your desires because you KNOW the other person doesn't want the same thing you do, and lowering your standards to a level commensurate with the crumbs the other person is maaaaaaaaaaaaybe willing to give you if you badger and plead enough -- you already lost. BIG time.

 

In one breath, you insist that he could come back because nobody here knows what he's thinking. But in the next, you've used the internet to diagnose and analyze him, and decided that YOU know what he will and won't do, even if he reeeeeeeeeally cares, based on your amateur Google diagnosis. How do you reconcile those lines of thought?

 

So many of us have been where you are, which is why this is so hard to watch.

 

You're right. I even find myself wondering if I SHOULD just stick around for the crumbs, since I enjoy my time with him so much. Is it better to have nothing at all with someone you really enjoy and care for, or to take what you can get? I would never settle for this kind of non-relationship with someone I didn't care for. I DO want more with him, but if he's not willing to give it, then should I just appreciate what I do get? That sounds sooooo weak, I know, but do you get what I'm saying? If I'm not going to be dating anyone else anyways, what do I have to lose by just appreciating him when he is around?

 

I've asked myself this many times, but I know the answer. I lose dignity and self-respect, and I continue to be miserable when I'm not with him, because I want more of him. It's not a relationship in general that I care about, it's HIM. When I'm not with him, I miss him terribly. So seeing him once a month, or whatever it would have diminished down to, would just leave me feeling unhappy the other 30 days. And this is why I did walk away.

 

I don't even know what I'm hanging on to anymore. I've analyzed it to death. I've sat back and done nothing with him, to see if he'd come back around, and he hasn't. I can't go back in time and not end things like I did the first time. I'm reaching the point of being done. I guess I just want to be 100% sure that there's no second or third chance with him here, if I do things the right way. I really did care about him. We had the BEST time together. I really did love him, but I honestly don't feel that anymore.

 

I've learned a lot here, and I hope that it helps with my next relationship. That may not be for a very long while though, because I don't often meet people who really excite me. I'm back on the dating site, but not a single person has caught my interest, because I compare them all to him. So I will take this time to work on myself, I guess.

[snowflakes88]

You're right. I even find myself wondering if I SHOULD just stick around for the crumbs, since I enjoy my time with him so much. Is it better to have nothing at all with someone you really enjoy and care for, or to take what you can get? I would never settle for this kind of non-relationship with someone I didn't care for. I DO want more with him, but if he's not willing to give it, then should I just appreciate what I do get? That sounds sooooo weak, I know, but do you get what I'm saying? If I'm not going to be dating anyone else anyways, what do I have to lose by just appreciating him when he is around?

 

I do get what you're saying. Completely, because I've been there. I think most of us have, which is why it's so easy to see from the outside looking in that there is nothing particularly unique or special or unicorn-esque about your situation. And I've done exactly what you've proposed, more than once. Swallowed my feelings and my needs, for the sake of being the cool girl. Pretended I was fine with whatever minimal attention I got, because just being in his presence seemed preferable to the alternative. But it's like someone else pointed out earlier... it's like a drug. When whatever limited time he throws at you comes to an end, you're low and pathetic and miserable until you get your next hit. And it's never fully satisfying, because it's not really what you want.

 

And the cherry on top is that these situations usually end when the guy you'd convinced yourself was just avoidant and commitment-phobic and wounded by his ex and needed time and would come around if you'd juuuuuuust play it cool and not pressure him -- he meets a woman who REALLY knocks his socks off, and he commits to her. And let me tell you, the feeling that accompanies THAT is so, so, so, so, so much worse than what you're feeling now.

 

About two months ago, one of my best friends set me up with a great guy. I'm 32, and I make no secret of the fact that I'm ready to be settled. This guy ticked all of the boxes on my list. Handsome, intelligent, educated, fun to be around, attentive, reliable, consistent, etc. We were spending tons of time together, and for the first time in a LONG time, I was really happy. I let my guard down and started to fall. I felt safe falling, because he said all of the right things. How happy he was to have met me, how he found himself wondering if I could be "it." How he hoped I was. And then, after an awesome weekend spent together a few weeks ago, he told me he had trust issues because of his last relationship. That he thought he was ready to try again, but was having doubts. That he was worried about half-assing it and being unfair to me because of it. I was crushed. Beyond disappointed.

 

Had this been 3-4 years ago, I probably would have tried to dial down my expectations, tell him we could keep dating with no pressure, convince myself that I didn't really need him to be all in less than 2 months in, that he might come around. The woman I am today won't sell myself short like that. I already know I'd be miserable in that sort of arrangement, because whether it was early or not -- I *was* all in. And I deserve someone who wants to be all in with me too, or at least affirmatively work towards that without hesitation or a bunch of walls up. As much as I wish I could, I can't make him feel something he doesn't. It also does me no good to sit around and dwell on all of the things he said early on, because even though he may have thought he felt them then -- he obviously doesn't feel them strongly enough now, or he'd still be here. It's just that simple, as much as that sucks. So I cut ties, and I'm doing my best to move forward. If he changes his mind, he will reach out. It isn't on me to try to maintain contact -- he's a grown ass man, he knows I'm alive, and I'm too awesome to be forgettable just because I'm not in front of his face.

 

I'm not sure how old you are or how much dating experience you have, but chances are good you'll get to a place where you realize you're worth more than having to contort yourself, stifle your needs, or peddle yourself to someone like a used car salesman. It sucks to be where you are now, but it will get better. I promise.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

So you're living it too, huh? Hugs!!! Sounds like you're coping a whole lot better than I am. I'm glad for you that you are

 

I do get what you're saying. Completely, because I've been there. I think most of us have, which is why it's so easy to see from the outside looking in that there is nothing particularly unique or special or unicorn-esque about your situation. And I've done exactly what you've proposed, more than once. Swallowed my feelings and my needs, for the sake of being the cool girl. Pretended I was fine with whatever minimal attention I got, because just being in his presence seemed preferable to the alternative. But it's like someone else pointed out earlier... it's like a drug. When whatever limited time he throws at you comes to an end, you're low and pathetic and miserable until you get your next hit. And it's never fully satisfying, because it's not really what you want.

 

He was spending every other day with me, but I feared that our times together would become few and far between once his parents got back. It's JUST like a drug. After getting my high, I would've spent the next several days or weeks in withdrawal, always waiting for the next hit like you say.

 

And the cherry on top is that these situations usually end when the guy you'd convinced yourself was just avoidant and commitment-phobic and wounded by his ex and needed time and would come around if you'd juuuuuuust play it cool and not pressure him -- he meets a woman who REALLY knocks his socks off, and he commits to her. And let me tell you, the feeling that accompanies THAT is so, so, so, so, so much worse than what you're feeling now.

 

I can't think of anything worse than having that happen!

 

The sad thing is that I knocked his socks off in the beginning. I just have to say it, because it's true.

 

About two months ago, one of my best friends set me up with a great guy. I'm 32, and I make no secret of the fact that I'm ready to be settled. This guy ticked all of the boxes on my list. Handsome, intelligent, educated, fun to be around, attentive, reliable, consistent, etc. We were spending tons of time together, and for the first time in a LONG time, I was really happy. I let my guard down and started to fall. I felt safe falling, because he said all of the right things. How happy he was to have met me, how he found himself wondering if I could be "it." How he hoped I was. And then, after an awesome weekend spent together a few weeks ago, he told me he had trust issues because of his last relationship. That he thought he was ready to try again, but was having doubts. That he was worried about half-assing it and being unfair to me because of it. I was crushed. Beyond disappointed.

 

Almost the exact same scenario. Mine was telling me that it was meant to be, and that it must be a sign. Like you, I was happier than I'd been in a very very long time. It had been so long since I felt like that that I didn't even know it was possible.

 

I really hate guys sometimes, for doing this to us. It happens time and time again, over and over, with so many women. They come on so strong and reel us in and make us feel comfortable, and then they yank it all away. It's really quite horrible. I'm sorry that you've been through it too.

 

Had this been 3-4 years ago, I probably would have tried to dial down my expectations, tell him we could keep dating with no pressure, convince myself that I didn't really need him to be all in less than 2 months in, that he might come around. The woman I am today won't sell myself short like that. I already know I'd be miserable in that sort of arrangement, because whether it was early or not -- I *was* all in. And I deserve someone who wants to be all in with me too, or at least affirmatively work towards that without hesitation or a bunch of walls up. As much as I wish I could, I can't make him feel something he doesn't. It also does me no good to sit around and dwell on all of the things he said early on, because even though he may have thought he felt them then -- he obviously doesn't feel them strongly enough now, or he'd still be here. It's just that simple, as much as that sucks. So I cut ties, and I'm doing my best to move forward. If he changes his mind, he will reach out. It isn't on me to try to maintain contact -- he's a grown ass man, he knows I'm alive, and I'm too awesome to be forgettable just because I'm not in front of his face.

 

I love your spirit Thank you so much for sharing your story. How did you go about cutting ties with him? How long has it been since you've spoken with him? Has he tried to reach out at all? In your heart, do you think he'll come back around? I guess I'm the queen of false hope, but you do hear stories of women walking away and guys realizing weeks or months later what they actually lost. I really love your last sentence!

 

I'm not sure how old you are or how much dating experience you have, but chances are good you'll get to a place where you realize you're worth more than having to contort yourself, stifle your needs, or peddle yourself to someone like a used car salesman. It sucks to be where you are now, but it will get better. I promise.

 

I know I sound young and lacking in relationship experience, but I'm about 5 years older than you, and I've had a lot of dating experience (mostly because most of them were short-lived like this one... it adds up). I've never had a relationship that lasted over a year. I've had a ton of these short-lived non-relationships, a couple of 6-month relationships in which I got bored and lost interest, another 6-month relationship which I ended because I felt unsatisfied, two live-in boyfriends who were both abusive, a couple of FWB situations in which I grew attached and he didn't. What I've never had is something solid and long-lasting, and I don't have a clue how it's supposed to work.

[elaine567]

I guess I'm the queen of false hope, but you do hear stories of women walking away and guys realizing weeks or months later what they actually lost.

 

Yes, but the vast majority walk away and never even think of what they lost because THEY did the walking.

Are you regretting splitting up with the two guys you lost interest in or the guy you left because you were unsatisfied or the two guys who were abusive to you?

Have YOU realised what you lost when YOU walked away?

Are you rushing to answer their texts? Are you sitting there moping because they were the ones that got away?

 

I doubt it. Had you truly regretted it, you would be right round there pleading with them to take you back, I bet.

 

Has this chap ever pleaded with you to take him back? Is he keenly answering your texts? Is he always saying let's meet up?

Has he given you any indication he regrets his actions? Has he made any moves to contact you that you haven't initiated first?

[snowflakes88]

I love your spirit Thank you so much for sharing your story. How did you go about cutting ties with him? How long has it been since you've spoken with him? Has he tried to reach out at all? In your heart, do you think he'll come back around? I guess I'm the queen of false hope, but you do hear stories of women walking away and guys realizing weeks or months later what they actually lost. I really love your last sentence!

 

As far as how I cut ties -- I just did it, cold turkey. We were actually cuddled up in bed when he gave me the I'm-not-sure-I'm-ready speech... I confirmed that I *was* ready, which meant we weren't on the same page. He got teary, gave me a speech about how he wished he met me before he met his ex, etc. I felt myself weakening, so I told him that if he was sure about what he was telling me -- he needed to go. I told him I felt he'd probably regret his decision, but that I wasn't going to fight him on it. I walked him out, and he asked if we could still be friends, said he couldn't imagine not having me in his life anymore. I told him that wasn't an option for me because I was sure I wanted to be more than friends and pretending otherwise would make it impossible for me to move on. He said he understood, and he left. That was it.

 

We haven't spoken in about 3 weeks. He hasn't tried to reach out, other than probing the friend who set us up for info as to how I'm doing, what I'm up to -- which I don't consider "effort" on his part. I don't know if he'll come back around or not, but I'm 100% operating as though he will not. IMO, it makes much more sense to move forward as though he won't (and have it be a satisfying surprise if he does), than to sit/wallow/over-analyze/speculate over whether he will -- and then be stuck there having made no progress if and when he doesn't.

 

It's so easy to get caught up in thinking you won't meet somebody else who makes you that happy, or who you want to be with as much. But that's your insecurity playing tricks on you. If I could get excited about him, I can get excited about someone else. I thought the same thing about the last failed situation (that I'd neeeeeeever find that connection again, woe is me!)... then here I was down the line, into this guy. It can happen again, and eventually it'll happen with someone who wholly reciprocates. I want someone whose socks I'm still knocking off years down the line -- not just for the first few weeks, or on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'm worthy of that. You are too.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Yes, but the vast majority walk away and never even think of what they lost because THEY did the walking.

Are you regretting splitting up with the two guys you lost interest in or the guy you left because you were unsatisfied or the two guys who were abusive to you?

Have YOU realised what you lost when YOU walked away?

Are you rushing to answer their texts? Are you sitting there moping because they were the ones that got away?

 

I doubt it. Had you truly regretted it, you would be right round there pleading with them to take you back, I bet.

 

Has this chap ever pleaded with you to take him back? Is he keenly answering your texts? Is he always saying let's meet up?

Has he given you any indication he regrets his actions? Has he made any moves to contact you that you haven't initiated first?

 

No, not yet. But like I said, I have had about 2/3 of past guys come back around eventually. And trust me, that's a lot of guys (since like I said, I've had a lot of short-term things). With most, it was a case similar to this one - there were major fireworks in the beginning, I got anxious and piled on the pressure, and it ended just as quickly. A couple months later, or in some cases years later, they contacted me out of the blue. I asked one guy why he had quit talking to me but then came back around, and he said he was waiting for me to cool off, because I sent him messages similar to how I did with this guy during those two months. With another guy, I stressed him out with my anxiety about where things stood, and he finally got exasperated and told me that he was just NOT interested. Actually hearing the words, I believed him, and I moved on. A few months later, back he comes, wanting to take me on a real date, offering to pay me to clean his house because I was low on money, asking me if I wanted to move in! Seriously. It's happened so many many times. This tells me that guys do like me, but I overwhelm them. Later, when all the drama or whatever has died down, they remember that they did like me, and back they come.

 

I don't personally long for any of my past exes anymore, but I did contact the one I lived with years later, and went to see him. Most of the others just turn my stomach because they treated me so badly. The two that I got bored of, I had my fill of. Those were situations where I was with them long enough to feel smothered. It wasn't a case of intense and then done. There was a long period of decreasing attraction on my part. There was no time for that here.

 

This guy did keenly answer my texts for a while. Until I harshly ended it. Before that, I would text, and he would want me to come over. Or I would say hey how are you, and he'd answer immediately.

 

I'm not making up excuses. You asked, so I'm just giving you an answer.

[snowflakes88]

And to be clear, OP -- at the end of the day, I'm still human. I cry. I allowed myself mini pity parties when things first fell apart. I spent a few days over-analyzing every single thing he ever said or did with friends. Questioned whether I was the one at fault for rushing things. Thought about calling him. You'd be abnormal if you didn't feel those things. The trick is prioritizing yourself and your own well-being over those self-destructive urges.

[Kaya]

I think most of us have, which is why it's so easy to see from the outside looking in that there is nothing particularly unique or special or unicorn-esque about your situation. And I've done exactly what you've proposed, more than once. Swallowed my feelings and my needs, for the sake of being the cool girl.

 

@snowflakes88 and @alwayspuzzled

 

I just want to share that I too have been involved in this destructive dynamic, way longer than I'd actually like to admit.

 

The first guy was all those things, handsome, intelligent, kind, cared about me, great connection, "exciting", - but he always had one foot out the door, I thought he'd come round. At the very beginning, I remember him saying "I don't want to hurt you", he decided within the second month or so that we should break up as he wasn't able to give me his all.

Being the naive idiot that I was, I convinced him to stay, told him he was being way to serious, I said, why don't we "just go with the flow". He said "ok",..

We then proceeded to be together for a year and a half, he stayed over at my house every night (but always had his clothes in an overnight bag), we acted like a "normal couple", did fun things together, had great intimacy, but deep-down I wasn't happy, continually hoping for more.. at around the one year mark, his best friend would say "why don't you just commit to her?". He would say "I don't believe in spending the rest of your life with one person, I can't make that kind of promise to someone". I mentioned something like "why don't we buy a house together", he got terribly upset. And then a few weeks later, we were lazing around on the couch, and out of the blue he said "I'm going home", he got his bag, left my spare set of keys on the table and.. that was it.

We emailed a bit after that, in one of his emails he actually said ..

"You derserve everything you want, don't sell yourself short".

About a year later, after he had therapy, he met a girl and bought a house together with her and they are now living happily ever after, ouch indeed.

 

I on the other hand, also went to therapy, but unforutnately I never learned my lesson, and went on to have another 4YEAR on/off "relationship" with the exact same dynamic!! Handsome, intelligent, kind, caring, great connection, "exciting", yada yada yada... Having been through this twice now, I finally get it.

 

AlwaysPuzzled, even if you didn't break up with him that first time, even if you acted like the perfect non-anxious girl, I think the end results would've been the same. We have to understand that we can't make these guys change with time and effort. They need to want the same things as we do. It's okay for us to have expectations, and to walk away as soon as we see that the guy is not willing or able to meet them.. no matter how great we think they are. Trust your instincts.

 

I really do think you're lucky that you've only had six weeks with this fellow.. don't be like me and waste so much time on something that is clearly doomed from the very beginning .

[Itspointless]

Aw, thanks I didn't know English wasn't your first language. I love and appreciate your input!

Yeah, I am from one of those non-English speaking small European countries.

And yet she didn't abandon him. She taught him, by taking him back over and over and over again for 3 years, that he could do anything he damn well pleased with no fear of consequences. His other on-and-off-again ex has probably taught him the same thing. So he KNOWS that women fall madly in love with him and keep coming back no matter how he treats them. I fell right in line by doing the same thing the first time. No matter how much he ignored me, I kept trying. And then when we did see each other again, I didn't even want to talk about it. A friend of mine pointed out that in that moment, I taught him to treat me badly. So true.

 

I think I read that dismissive-avoidants fear abandonment and rejection deep down. So if they test someone, and that person continues to stay with them and doesn't abandon them, will they eventually let their guard down? It seems a catch-22... if the person sticks with them, it builds trust for the dismissive... but the dismissive would also lose respect for the person who continues to stick around for poor treatment, right? I don't know the best way to handle these "tests."

You describe him as a guy with magical qualities. To be honest he does sound very self-absorbed and egocentric to me. You know we see that he shows avoidant traits, but I am not a psychologist and have never met the guy. It could very well be that he isn’t even in the avoidant spectrum, although I doubt that. It also could just as well be that he a personality disorder. Reading your descriptions I have the feeling that if I had the chance to meet him I would find him a very annoying person. I mostly do not like people who think the world of themselves. Anyway …

 

I think the point you are making about respect has nothing to do with avoidance, it is something people generally conclude when they notice they can trample over others. I do not see that catch as what you described in your example, in all honesty is just cruel behavior nobody should ever accept from anybody.

 

Your remarks made me also think of something Downtown sometimes write to people as your ex uses this (un)consciously to his advantage (either way it is manipulative). Here the ex was likely a bpd’er.

This idealization is the "high" of the relationship and the reason it quickly becomes so addictive. It also is the reason that you likely will find it hard "to settle" for a normal, healthy woman for a while -- the emotionally available women won't find you to be so God-like within the first two weeks of your relationship.

 

Question for you (and I almost hate to ask it, because it's going to sound so weak, but here goes...) […] SO, my question is -- since I finally showed some self-respect and self-control, and I walked away after pointing out that it's not cool how he treats people and that I wouldn't stick around for it, and told him that I wouldn't allow him to come in and out of my life -- is there any chance that this will raise my value in his eyes, and he may come back around and do better? I know he liked me, but he also knew that he could get away with anything, so he didn't HAVE to do any better. Is there any chance that this will eventually make him rethink things? And if so, how long would that take, you think?

It perhaps makes you interesting. But as the avoidant tendencies often are unconscious there is little to rethink, it also wouldn’t change a thing in his behavior.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Itspointless

[elaine567]

We have to understand that we can't make these guys change with time and effort. They need to want the same things as we do. It's okay for us to have expectations, and to walk away as soon as we see that the guy is not willing or able to meet them.. no matter how great we think they are. Trust your instincts..

 

 

This ^^^^^

[Itspointless]

I think we must be careful when discussing emotional unavailability, as there are more reasons why people (man and woman) can be emotionally unavailable. It can be caused due to stress, depression, dismissive-avoidance attachment, a full blown PD, indecisive people like Kaya her ex, etc. The consequences are all hurtful, but they are not the same.

[elaine567]

We also have to consider that some of those people are not necessarily avoidant, they are just people who in the relationship are not feeling the same as the other partner. The expectations are just mismatched

 

If after dating for a while some men see the picket fence and 3 kids in school uniform, and a wife pecking him on the cheek as he leaves for work, and the woman says, "wait a minute there" and leaves, because she saw a year out, a round the world trip, and a career in business for herself.

 

Is she avoidant, is she a commitment phobe, is she emotionally unavailable?

I doubt it.

[snowflakes88]

I think we must be careful when discussing emotional unavailability, as there are more reasons why people (man and woman) can be emotionally unavailable. It can be caused due to stress, depression, dismissive-avoidance attachment, a full blown PD, indecisive people like Kaya her ex, etc. The consequences are all hurtful, but they are not the same.

 

They aren't all the same, but they do share one common factor -- you cannot "fix" the underlying issue, or love someone out of it. Whatever the reason someone cannot or will not make themselves emotionally available to you, the end result is the same: they cannot or will not make themselves emotionally available to you.

 

ETA: And honestly, whether the issue is he's just not that into me, he has a diagnosed personality disorder, he has attachment issues, or whatever -- NONE of those are traits of a person I want to tie myself to, hoping against hope that things will change.

[Itspointless]

We also have to consider that some of those people are not necessarily avoidant, they are just people who in the relationship are not feeling the same as the other partner. The expectations are just mismatched

 

If after dating for a while some men see the picket fence and 3 kids in school uniform, and a wife pecking him on the cheek as he leaves for work, and the woman says, "wait a minute there" and leaves, because she saw a year out, a round the world trip, and a career in business for herself.

 

Is she avoidant, is she a commitment phobe, is she emotionally unavailable?

I doubt it.

 

They aren't all the same, but they do share one common factor -- you cannot "fix" the underlying issue, or love someone out of it. Whatever the reason someone cannot or will not make themselves emotionally available to you, the end result is the same: they cannot or will not make themselves emotionally available to you.

 

ETA: And honestly, whether the issue is he's just not that into me, he has a diagnosed personality disorder, he has attachment issues, or whatever -- NONE of those are traits of a person I want to tie myself to, hoping against hope that things will change.

I agree with both of you! It is just that I see all to often on the net people discussing these things like it is all the same. The hurt unfortunately is very similair or even the same.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Hey everyone! Thanks for all the new posts. I've gotten behind because I'm playing catch-up with some work I need to finish, but I promise to read and reply to everything tomorrow. Just wanted to check in and say a quick hello. Been missing him a lot today. It sucks not being able to just text and say hi, but I know it would be pointless. I hate that we went so quickly from "friends" to strangers.

 

Last night I was reading some old threads by a member here who dated this girl for 4 months. Apparently he treated her like crap and then dumped her. One of his threads was missing, so I didn't get the full beginning of the story. After he dumped her, she tried desperately to get him back for 3 months, and he just blew her off. Several months after that, she started dating a new guy, and suddenly he became obsessed with wanting her back. Reached out to her and explained that he'd had walls up at the time they were dating, and that he now had deep dumper's remorse. The tables turned at that point, and she started playing mind games with him, throwing out ambiguous crumbs, stringing him along. It made for interesting reading:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/search.php?searchid=22434111

 

I guess it goes without saying that I wish that would happen here! These guys always seem to circle back around once you've truly moved on (like I said, I've had it happen a ton of times, and I've seem message boards detailing how it's happened.)

 

I'll be back tomorrow! Thanks again for everyone's input, and I look forward to reading the new posts!