I love him but I don't know what he's thinking anymore

[Divasu]

So it appears you haven't reached the indifference stage, yet. When will you get there my dear?

 

I can tell you from first hand experience, when old flames come back, you will have moved on emotionally. All three men I was in long relationships with, have years later, not once did I feel the urge to go back.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

So it appears you haven't reached the indifference stage, yet. When will you get there my dear?

 

I can tell you from first hand experience, when old flames come back, you will have moved on emotionally. All three men I was in long relationships with, have years later, not once did I feel the urge to go back.

 

I don't know if I'll ever get there The feelings aren't as strong, at least, so I guess that's progress? But I'd still go back in a heartbeat, can't lie.

 

I'm indifferent about all my past ones other than him. I can only think of one of them who might could maaaaaybe woo me back in, if he was really charming. The rest of them, I couldn't care less about.

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

[Divasu]

I don't know if I'll ever get there The feelings aren't as strong, at least, so I guess that's progress? But I'd still go back in a heartbeat, can't lie.

 

Are you indifferent yet about your last?

 

I'm indifferent about all my past ones other than him. I can only think of one of them who might could maaaaaybe woo me back in. The rest of them, I couldn't care less about.

 

Yes, progress. Good. . You'll wax and wane a bit from time to time, that's normal.

 

In response to your question, as an example - a man I was engaged to, messaged me about a month ago asking if I was free to join him for happy hour. I didn't go of course. I have not seen him since we ended our relationship 10 years ago aside from running into him at Home Depot . I have been over him romantically since the day we ended our relationship.

 

So figure it like this maybe... You have a few decades in front of you left on this earth. Opportunities await, new people and new experiences await. The past is gone, tomorrow is just around the corner. Embrace the day.

 

Everyone moves on at their own pace. No worries. I was merely trying to provide you with a little reality check along the way.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Okay, finished with what I was doing, so I can catch up here a bit

 

As far as how I cut ties -- I just did it, cold turkey. We were actually cuddled up in bed when he gave me the I'm-not-sure-I'm-ready speech... I confirmed that I *was* ready, which meant we weren't on the same page. He got teary, gave me a speech about how he wished he met me before he met his ex, etc. I felt myself weakening, so I told him that if he was sure about what he was telling me -- he needed to go. I told him I felt he'd probably regret his decision, but that I wasn't going to fight him on it. I walked him out, and he asked if we could still be friends, said he couldn't imagine not having me in his life anymore. I told him that wasn't an option for me because I was sure I wanted to be more than friends and pretending otherwise would make it impossible for me to move on. He said he understood, and he left. That was it.

 

My heart aches for you, reading this. But I really do admire your strength and resolve! That will surely leave a lasting positive impression with him. Good for you!! I'm sure he's been rethinking things in the time since. Maybe I'm just mad at guys right now (frank and itspointless excluded from this statement!), but his exit sounds weak and cowardly to me. I will never understand how these guys can seem to like us so much, and then suddenly dip out like that.

 

We haven't spoken in about 3 weeks. He hasn't tried to reach out, other than probing the friend who set us up for info as to how I'm doing, what I'm up to -- which I don't consider "effort" on his part.

 

Again, weak. Why not man up and ask you himself? I guess you made it clear you didn't want to be friends, so maybe that's the reason. Regardless... while it may not be effort on his part, I'd consider it a good sign. Means he's thinking of you. I'd be THRILLED if mine did such a thing.

 

I don't know if he'll come back around or not, but I'm 100% operating as though he will not. IMO, it makes much more sense to move forward as though he won't (and have it be a satisfying surprise if he does), than to sit/wallow/over-analyze/speculate over whether he will -- and then be stuck there having made no progress if and when he doesn't.

 

This is a good way of being, and I need to be doing this as well. I've been stuck in limbo for months (before he came back, while I was seeing him again briefly b/c I didn't know what he wanted, and after I said goodbye again). You're right about needing to make progress in the meantime. If they come back, and you're still stuck in the false hopes and/or depression of losing them, you won't be very attractive and appealing (talking about myself here - YOU are doing GREAT).

 

It's so easy to get caught up in thinking you won't meet somebody else who makes you that happy, or who you want to be with as much. But that's your insecurity playing tricks on you. If I could get excited about him, I can get excited about someone else. I thought the same thing about the last failed situation (that I'd neeeeeeever find that connection again, woe is me!)... then here I was down the line, into this guy. It can happen again, and eventually it'll happen with someone who wholly reciprocates. I want someone whose socks I'm still knocking off years down the line -- not just for the first few weeks, or on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'm worthy of that. You are too.

 

I hope you're right! I'm not seeing it happening, but maybe one day. I like your line about finding someone who wholly reciprocates. How amazing that would feel.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Yes, progress. Good. . You'll wax and wane a bit from time to time, that's normal.

 

In response to your question, as an example - a man I was engaged to, messaged me about a month ago asking if I was free to join him for happy hour. I didn't go of course. I have not seen him since we ended our relationship 10 years ago aside from running into him at Home Depot . I have been over him romantically since the day we ended our relationship.

 

So figure it like this maybe... You have a few decades in front of you left on this earth. Opportunities await, new people and new experiences await. The past is gone, tomorrow is just around the corner. Embrace the day.

 

Everyone moves on at their own pace. No worries. I was merely trying to provide you with a little reality check along the way.

 

Thank you

 

It really does seem to happen more often than not that men will circle back around. I just wish they wouldn't wait 10 years, like in your example! Must have felt nice to tell him no I recently had one come back from like 20 years ago - first guy I ever had sex with, very short-term non-relationship in which he pulled the slow fade. Messaged me several months ago on facebook apologizing for how he treated me, wanted to take me to dinner and treat me like a real man should. I appreciated the gesture, but really felt nothing for him anymore (I mean, c'mon - two decades later? gimme a break). But I've definitely had several come back within a period of months, and I'm really hoping that happens with this guy. I guess for my own benefit, it would be best if I was truly over him by then - but I'm definitely not over it yet.

[Divasu]

Thank you

 

It really does seem to happen more often than not that men will circle back around. I just wish they wouldn't wait 10 years, like in your example! Must have felt nice to tell him no I recently had one come back from like 20 years ago - first guy I ever had sex with, very short-term non-relationship in which he pulled the slow fade. Messaged me several months ago on facebook apologizing for how he treated me, wanted to take me to dinner and treat me like a real man should. I appreciated the gesture, but really felt nothing for him anymore (I mean, c'mon - two decades later? gimme a break). But I've definitely had several come back within a period of months, and I'm really hoping that happens with this guy. I guess for my own benefit, it would be best if I was truly over him by then - but I'm definitely not over it yet.

 

Sure thing.

 

No, I wouldn't say it felt nice. Sure I could say, "yay for my ego" but thought at the time to myself, "what the hell"?! And, "you're married with kids, what the duck is wrong with you?!"

 

Yes, probably best for your benefit. You'll have a clearer sense of yourself.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Hey Kaya, thanks so much for your post although I'm sorry that you've gone through it too

 

@snowflakes88 and @alwayspuzzled

 

I just want to share that I too have been involved in this destructive dynamic, way longer than I'd actually like to admit.

 

The first guy was all those things, handsome, intelligent, kind, cared about me, great connection, "exciting", - but he always had one foot out the door, I thought he'd come round. At the very beginning, I remember him saying "I don't want to hurt you", he decided within the second month or so that we should break up as he wasn't able to give me his all.

Being the naive idiot that I was, I convinced him to stay, told him he was being way to serious, I said, why don't we "just go with the flow". He said "ok",..

 

Ahhh, "go with the flow." I've said that before too, and had it said to me. Guys like to say it in order to keep our expectations down, and we like to say it to take the pressure off of them (while secretly wanting more, of course).

 

We then proceeded to be together for a year and a half, he stayed over at my house every night (but always had his clothes in an overnight bag), we acted like a "normal couple", did fun things together, had great intimacy, but deep-down I wasn't happy, continually hoping for more.. at around the one year mark, his best friend would say "why don't you just commit to her?". He would say "I don't believe in spending the rest of your life with one person, I can't make that kind of promise to someone". I mentioned something like "why don't we buy a house together", he got terribly upset. And then a few weeks later, we were lazing around on the couch, and out of the blue he said "I'm going home", he got his bag, left my spare set of keys on the table and.. that was it.

 

It's amazing that these guys can stick around for a year or two while not committing. You'd think that after that long together, it kind of IS a commitment - especially if you're spending every night together. It almost makes me angry that guys always have the most power in these situations - it's usually the woman waiting around on the guy to decide that we're good enough for him fully be with us. I know we can kind of blame ourselves for putting up with it, but it really just seems the natural order of things: guys almost always have the most power. Ugh.

 

What a heartbreaking ending I'm so sorry you had that happen. I can only imagine how hurtful that was.

 

We emailed a bit after that, in one of his emails he actually said ..

"You derserve everything you want, don't sell yourself short".

 

How very "gracious" of him

 

About a year later, after he had therapy, he met a girl and bought a house together with her and they are now living happily ever after, ouch indeed.

 

Every woman's nightmare. So sorry

 

I on the other hand, also went to therapy, but unforutnately I never learned my lesson, and went on to have another 4YEAR on/off "relationship" with the exact same dynamic!! Handsome, intelligent, kind, caring, great connection, "exciting", yada yada yada... Having been through this twice now, I finally get it.

 

How long were the periods of on and off? What caused the off periods? How did you finally walk away (or did he finally call it off for good)?

 

AlwaysPuzzled, even if you didn't break up with him that first time, even if you acted like the perfect non-anxious girl, I think the end results would've been the same. We have to understand that we can't make these guys change with time and effort. They need to want the same things as we do. It's okay for us to have expectations, and to walk away as soon as we see that the guy is not willing or able to meet them.. no matter how great we think they are. Trust your instincts.

 

I really do think you're lucky that you've only had six weeks with this fellow.. don't be like me and waste so much time on something that is clearly doomed from the very beginning .

 

Thank you for your story, and for this perspective. It doesn't make me miss/want him any less, but I can agree that a several-year on/off thing with him is not what I would have wanted. I actually bluntly told him in one of my final goodbye messages that I wouldn't be one of these girls he strings along for years. I wonder if my messages had any impact whatsoever, or if he just doesn't care how he treats people. I told him that he deeply hurts people. I really laid into him about it. He probably doesn't care.

 

I guess you're right that the end result would have been the same, even if I'd been the perfect non-anxious girl (which I couldn't have been). The way he's always lived his life is in no way conducive to commitments of any kind (work, living situation, relationships). He ditches people all the time (friends, girls, family) and comes back around whenever it suits him. I will be DEVASTATED if he commits to some other girl before I become indifferent towards him, but with the way he is now, I have to just hope that won't happen. But I'm getting side-tracked here - my thoughts start running away with me.

 

Thanks Kaya!!

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Sure thing.

 

No, I wouldn't say it felt nice. Sure I could say, "yay for my ego" but thought at the time to myself, "what the hell"?! And, "you're married with kids, what the duck is wrong with you?!"

 

Yes, probably best for your benefit. You'll have a clearer sense of yourself.

 

Ohhhhh. What a loser!!!

[AlwaysPuzzled]

You describe him as a guy with magical qualities.

 

This is unfortunately how I see him

 

To be honest he does sound very self-absorbed and egocentric to me. You know we see that he shows avoidant traits, but I am not a psychologist and have never met the guy. It could very well be that he isn’t even in the avoidant spectrum, although I doubt that. It also could just as well be that he a personality disorder. Reading your descriptions I have the feeling that if I had the chance to meet him I would find him a very annoying person. I mostly do not like people who think the world of themselves. Anyway …

 

Actually, I think you'd like him VERY much upon meeting him. He comes across as very calm and quiet and humble. Doesn't seem the least bit arrogant, not even almost. I just personally know that he thinks highly of himself because he's told me how smart he is, said things like "who wouldn't want to go to bed with me?", etc etc. He's actually a VERY likable person (unfortunately enough )

 

I really do think he's very avoidant, the more I've thought about it and read about it. It fits him totally. I wish he would take that test!!! I bet he'd score extremely high on avoidance and pretty low on anxiety (he may have anxiety that I don't know about - if he does, he hides it well).

 

I think the point you are making about respect has nothing to do with avoidance, it is something people generally conclude when they notice they can trample over others. I do not see that catch as what you described in your example, in all honesty is just cruel behavior nobody should ever accept from anybody.

 

Very true, very true.

 

Your remarks made me also think of something Downtown sometimes write to people as your ex uses this (un)consciously to his advantage (either way it is manipulative). Here the ex was likely a bpd’er.

Originally Posted by Downtown View Post

This idealization is the "high" of the relationship and the reason it quickly becomes so addictive. It also is the reason that you likely will find it hard "to settle" for a normal, healthy woman for a while -- the emotionally available women won't find you to be so God-like within the first two weeks of your relationship.

 

Thanks for sharing this. God-like! That's exactly how I feel about him. I'm not sure what the context of this quote was, but I guess in applying it to my ex-guy... secure, emotionally available women won't be as charmed and swept off their feet by him so early on. Or even if they are, they will quickly become disillusioned once he starts his hot/coldness. They would probably sense that something was *off* earlier than someone like me, who still to this day remains under his spell. I still have him up on a pedestal, as much as I've tried to hate him and see his bad side.

 

It perhaps makes you interesting. But as the avoidant tendencies often are unconscious there is little to rethink, it also wouldn’t change a thing in his behavior.

 

I'm sure you're right. I would still, though, like another chance... just to apply what I've learned about my own self and just see for myself if things would be different. I know that's unrealistic. I know. But I still want it. I just can't help but wonder, if one person is fully aware of both their own destructive tendencies and those of their partner's, if they could somehow "manipulate" the situation into working. I don't use the word "manipulate" in an evil or self-serving manner - just in a way that suggests knowing the best things to do, and what not to do, in order to set yourself up for the best possible outcome. I don't mean it as clinically as it sounds, I hope you get my point....

[AlwaysPuzzled]

I think we must be careful when discussing emotional unavailability, as there are more reasons why people (man and woman) can be emotionally unavailable. It can be caused due to stress, depression, dismissive-avoidance attachment, a full blown PD, indecisive people like Kaya her ex, etc. The consequences are all hurtful, but they are not the same.

 

Yes, definitely. It's very easy to get carried away with our cyber-researched diagnoses.

 

While he was ignoring me those two months, I read a ton of stuff online because I was so hurt and confused and just didn't know how to cope. I became convinced that he was a full-blown narcissist (I do still think he has tendencies). I even sent him a link so that he could read about himself LOL. I sent him another link about the effects of the silent treatment, and some other similar thing as well. So embarrassing, but he obviously wasn't phased since he came back for Round 2 of hanging out with me. I asked him, drunkenly, one night if he was a sociopath - he looked at me blankly and said he didn't know what that was. He told me a few times that I was crazy (which I'm not), so whatever. (Which reminds me of a very sweet moment -- sighhhh. He said "I know you worry about being crazy, but you shouldn't worry about it. I know I'm crazy and I don't give a f**k." It was just very sweet, how he said it, trying to calm [his misconstrued take on] my worries.)

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

[AlwaysPuzzled]

We also have to consider that some of those people are not necessarily avoidant, they are just people who in the relationship are not feeling the same as the other partner. The expectations are just mismatched

 

If after dating for a while some men see the picket fence and 3 kids in school uniform, and a wife pecking him on the cheek as he leaves for work, and the woman says, "wait a minute there" and leaves, because she saw a year out, a round the world trip, and a career in business for herself.

 

Is she avoidant, is she a commitment phobe, is she emotionally unavailable?

I doubt it.

 

Very true. But when someone exhibits signs of avoidance, emotional unavailability, and commitment-phobia in ALL areas of his life, and with ALL people in his life, it seems more likely that there is some issue. That's not to say that things couldn't change if something in his life drastically changed. Or god forbid, if he meets THE perfectly compatible person to be with (I just hate to think of that). I guess you have to look at someone's life/personality/way of being throughout all elements of their life, and throughout their history, to gauge whether or not it's just a one-off thing. IMO.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

They aren't all the same, but they do share one common factor -- you cannot "fix" the underlying issue, or love someone out of it. Whatever the reason someone cannot or will not make themselves emotionally available to you, the end result is the same: they cannot or will not make themselves emotionally available to you.

 

ETA: And honestly, whether the issue is he's just not that into me, he has a diagnosed personality disorder, he has attachment issues, or whatever -- NONE of those are traits of a person I want to tie myself to, hoping against hope that things will change.

 

I would 95% agree with this. Especially the last paragraph, which is where I need to somehow get to.

 

BUT. Looking at myself as an example (just because I'm the only person I fully know)... I know what it would take to make me feel less anxious and make me eventually quit pushing someone away. I know that what I need is patience, understanding, open communication, and reassurances that someone cares and wants to be with me. Over time (and I don't think it would even take all that long), I would eventually use my fearful/avoidant strategies less and less, and become more secure. I may never be perfectly secure, but with a partner who did the right things, I would improve tremendously. So in that sense, I really think someone COULD love me out of it.

 

The trick is that the other person would either have to intuitively know what to do, or I would have to tell them. If I told them, they would have to want to do it, of course (offer reassurance, etc etc). And I would have to like them enough that I would give them the chance. We would both have to want the same thing.

 

But what if, hypothetically, I was lukewarm about someone, or even really liked them but kept pushing them away. What if they figured out on their own what I needed, and just did it. I might then start to grow closer to them, and trust them more, and maybe want/love them more.

 

So what if this guy REALLY did like me (and I know he did, especially at the beginning), and I had been able to intuitively figure out what he needed. And I gave him what he needed, not to manipulate, but because I loved him and cared enough to want him to feel good. Maybe he then would have relaxed and felt more secure himself and with me. And the outcome would have changed.

 

Just some serious food for thought. I think it's probably too late with this guy, as we triggered our "stuff" in each other (that's one way to look at it, via the anxious-avoidant trap) and he's most likely done with it all. But for future relationships for all of us, it's something to think about.

 

ETA: I guess I was thinking in terms of attachment styles when I wrote this....

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

[Itspointless]

Actually, I think you'd like him VERY much upon meeting him. He comes across as very calm and quiet and humble. Doesn't seem the least bit arrogant, not even almost. I just personally know that he thinks highly of himself because he's told me how smart he is, said things like "who wouldn't want to go to bed with me?", etc etc. He's actually a VERY likable person

I think you are right and believe you. The same applies to my ex, she was really sweet to many.

I really do think he's very avoidant, the more I've thought about it and read about it. It fits him totally. I wish he would take that test!!! I bet he'd score extremely high on avoidance and pretty low on anxiety (he may have anxiety that I don't know about - if he does, he hides it well).

For me it was startling as well as almost everything I read fitted. I hate putting labels onto people but at some point I had to admit that it just described her in to many ways. It was confronting as it dashed my hope.

I still have him up on a pedestal, as much as I've tried to hate him and see his bad side. [...] I'm sure you're right. I would still, though, like another chance... [...] I know that's unrealistic. [...] I don't use the word "manipulate" in an evil or self-serving manner - just in a way that suggests knowing the best things to do, and what not to do, in order to set yourself up for the best possible outcome. I don't mean it as clinically as it sounds, I hope you get my point....

That is our anxiety. I passed a year and still would like that chance. Unfortunately I also know it is stupid to want that and that the trust is entirely gone. But I really would like it. I learned from a psychologist that the word manipulate comes from mending with your hands, that is the way I meant it.

Very true. But when someone exhibits signs of avoidance, emotional unavailability, and commitment-phobia in ALL areas of his life, and with ALL people in his life, it seems more likely that there is some issue. That's not to say that things couldn't change if something in his life drastically changed. Or god forbid, if he meets THE perfectly compatible person to be with (I just hate to think of that). I guess you have to look at someone's life/personality/way of being throughout all elements of their life, and throughout their history, to gauge whether or not it's just a one-off thing. IMO.

Yes, exactly. With her I at first was very understanding as I blamed her situation and the stress that comes with it, who wouldn't be distressed in her situation. But at a given moment I saw that it was an to easy answer with other things she had told me and the strange way she had turned completely. There were also other things that confirmed it for me, so at a given moment I had to admit it to myself.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Itspointless

[snowflakes88]

So what if this guy REALLY did like me (and I know he did, especially at the beginning), and I had been able to intuitively figure out what he needed. And I gave him what he needed, not to manipulate, but because I loved him and cared enough to want him to feel good. Maybe he then would have relaxed and felt more secure himself and with me. And the outcome would have changed.

 

As long as you remain willingly stuck in this what-if cycle, there's probably not much anyone here can say to help you. I don't say that to be harsh -- but it's almost like you delight in torturing yourself with these mental gymnastics. Is it possible that continuing to over-analyze and obsess over him provides you with the illusion of the connection you two no longer have? Like thinking about him all the time and indulging these thought patterns still links you to him in a way? Not sure if that makes sense, but I know I have been guilty of this in the past.

 

At some point you're going to have to direct your focus and accept that if he was interested in being in a real relationship with you -- hell, if he was even interested in letting you in to TRY to become a super-psychic using all your super-psychic powers to intuit his needs and meet them all in a loving, yet non-manipulative way because HE's the one on the pedestal and you need to work your ass off to prove yourself worthy! -- if he was even interested in letting you engage in those unhealthy behaviors, he would be here. He isn't. He would reach out. He hasn't. And you can throw yourself into further mental gymnastics about how your Google diagnosis suggests he's the special snowflake who just wouldn't dare reach out, even if he decided he needed you in his life -- but you have no real basis for that assumption, aside from your own false hope. Plus, you've reached out to him. Given him an opening. He knows you're amenable to communication, and he still isn't communicating.

 

It sucks, I know. But you've got to wrap your brain around it if you're going to move on. I guess a relevant question is whether you really want to move forward.

[snowflakes88]

Just some serious food for thought. I think it's probably too late with this guy, as we triggered our "stuff" in each other (that's one way to look at it, via the anxious-avoidant trap) and he's most likely done with it all. But for future relationships for all of us, it's something to think about.

 

ETA: I guess I was thinking in terms of attachment styles when I wrote this....

 

On another note, why would you even want to be thinking about ways to try winning the affection of an emotionally unavailable person in future relationships? Shouldn't your goal for future relationships be to find someone who is emotionally available from the start, rather than repeating this cycle?

[Itspointless]

So what if this guy REALLY did like me (and I know he did, especially at the beginning), and I had been able to intuitively figure out what he needed. And I gave him what he needed, not to manipulate, but because I loved him and cared enough to want him to feel good. Maybe he then would have relaxed and felt more secure himself and with me. And the outcome would have changed.

 

Just some serious food for thought. I think it's probably too late with this guy, as we triggered our "stuff" in each other (that's one way to look at it, via the anxious-avoidant trap) and he's most likely done with it all. But for future relationships for all of us, it's something to think about.

 

ETA: I guess I was thinking in terms of attachment styles when I wrote this....

If he is as avoidant as you wrote in your reply to me than no, sorry but no, it is no food for thought. If he is, than he is telling himself what my ex told me a couple of times. 'I am just as happy alone.' I had a little bit of trouble to be not offended when she said that the first time. After reading a lot about dismissive-avoidance I found out she actually wasn't lying. They actually think that. What they suppress on the other hand is their longing for human connection: as that is an inherently basic human need and they have it too. They actually do not understand why you make them happy, it confuses them. Lately I found a video on youtube where a therapeutic practitioner said something about this that hit me like thunder as it again reminded me of things she said to me (pfff).

 

You know AlwaysPuzzled as I understand it, even when they stay it will be with a lot of space. That means - as is constantly told - that you have to get your emotional needs met outside the relation. I do not know about you, but I do not want that.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Itspointless

[AlwaysPuzzled]

As long as you remain willingly stuck in this what-if cycle, there's probably not much anyone here can say to help you. I don't say that to be harsh -- but it's almost like you delight in torturing yourself with these mental gymnastics. Is it possible that continuing to over-analyze and obsess over him provides you with the illusion of the connection you two no longer have? Like thinking about him all the time and indulging these thought patterns still links you to him in a way? Not sure if that makes sense, but I know I have been guilty of this in the past.

 

At some point you're going to have to direct your focus and accept that if he was interested in being in a real relationship with you -- hell, if he was even interested in letting you in to TRY to become a super-psychic using all your super-psychic powers to intuit his needs and meet them all in a loving, yet non-manipulative way because HE's the one on the pedestal and you need to work your ass off to prove yourself worthy! -- if he was even interested in letting you engage in those unhealthy behaviors, he would be here. He isn't. He would reach out. He hasn't. And you can throw yourself into further mental gymnastics about how your Google diagnosis suggests he's the special snowflake who just wouldn't dare reach out, even if he decided he needed you in his life -- but you have no real basis for that assumption, aside from your own false hope. Plus, you've reached out to him. Given him an opening. He knows you're amenable to communication, and he still isn't communicating.

 

It sucks, I know. But you've got to wrap your brain around it if you're going to move on. I guess a relevant question is whether you really want to move forward.

 

I think you're right. That's exactly why I keep doing this (analyzing): it makes me feel like there is still a connection with him. After I stop, every last trace of him is gone. I've realized before that this is what I'm doing, but then seemed to forget about it and continued on doing it.

 

I fall asleep thinking about him and wake up thinking about him.

 

It really hurts that he doesn't even care enough to reach out and say hello. Why doesn't he?!? We had a great time together, we got along great, we got to know each other so well. So why doesn't he even want to be in touch? Is it because I was so harsh with my "goodbye" speech, or because he doesn't want to lead me on? Or do I just not exist to him anymore? That's what it feels like.

 

Thanks for the reality check.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

On another note, why would you even want to be thinking about ways to try winning the affection of an emotionally unavailable person in future relationships? Shouldn't your goal for future relationships be to find someone who is emotionally available from the start, rather than repeating this cycle?

 

Yeah, I just had a thought and went with it there, because it occurred to me that if I could be loved through my issues and walls and barriers, why couldn't someone else? I just got a bit one-track minded in that post and wasn't seeing the forest for the trees.

 

That said, it seems that most of the dating pool is filled with emotionally unavailable people. They're all that are left. The more secure individuals are already in relationships with other secure individuals. So if this is all that's left, shouldn't we figure out how to maximize our chances with them? Also, you don't often know that they are unavailable until they hook you in. That's how they operate. So by the time you recognize it, you're already attached.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

I think you are right and believe you. The same applies to my ex, she was really sweet to many.

 

It was confronting as it dashed my hope.

 

That is our anxiety. I passed a year and still would like that chance. Unfortunately I also know it is stupid to want that and that the trust is entirely gone.

 

This is the best I can do on separating quotes while on my phone - kind of messy, sorry! Following the order of what you said above:

 

I think they are sweet until someone gets too close for comfort. They have no reason to act unappealingly with strangers or acquaintances or people they're just starting to know, because these people pose no threat. You can only be a threat once you start to get inside them.

 

Your sentence about it dashing your hopes is interesting, because I'm the opposite. For some reason, it has raised my hopes. I feel like if you can fully understand something, you can "fix" it. Your view is more realistic than mine, I am sure.

 

You're right about the trust being entirely gone. How could we ever trust that the same thing wouldn't happen with them again? And once the trust is gone, it's hard to relax and be open and fun and give things a fair chance. Unless this guy piled it on thick with explanations and apologies, I'd never believe in his feelings for me. He TOLD me he liked me, and he ACTED like he was sooo into me. And then he turned right around and acted like I meant nothing at all to him. How can you ever trust someone like that? These people are horrible for playing on our emotions like this. It's really emotional abuse and gaslighting, is what it is. It's like they're saying "Why on earth would you think I ever cared about you?" after showering you with attention and affection and making it seem like you're their whole world. WE must be the crazy ones for believing in them, right? It couldn't possibly be because they send mixed signals, and give-vs-withdraw affection at will.

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

[AlwaysPuzzled]

To continue my thoughts from my previous post....

 

When he said that first time that we were "just friends," I have honestly never felt more confused in my whole life. The way it happened was:

 

He was doing some work at my parents house, and one day he asked if he could skip that day and just come the next. I asked him why, and he gave some vague answer (I now know that he was either massively hungover, or had already started drinking early that day). I felt he was being cold and distant (this was all over text), and I said "Well are we okay?" and he said "What do you mean?" And I said that I was less worried about the work, and more just wanted to make sure that he still wanted to be with me. And he said "It's too early to say be with me. I think just friends for now." And I was like, wow, okay. And I just didn't get it, because we had been acting in every way like we were a couple. "Friends" don't constantly cuddle and hug and touch each other and spend every moment together and talk about the future and say I Love You and say it's a sign and meant to be. I was still upset about it later, and he said he guessed he didn't think it was any big deal, he thought we were just friends.

 

WTF, ya know?!?!?!?

 

I let it slide, because it WAS early (only 3 weeks in at that point). But how confusing is that? Honestly, I still don't get it.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

If he is as avoidant as you wrote in your reply to me than no, sorry but no, it is no food for thought. If he is, than he is telling himself what my ex told me a couple of times. 'I am just as happy alone.' I had a little bit of trouble to be not offended when she said that the first time. After reading a lot about dismissive-avoidance I found out she actually wasn't lying. They actually think that. What they suppress on the other hand is their longing for human connection: as that is an inherently basic human need and they have it too. They actually do not understand why you make them happy, it confuses them. Lately I found a video on youtube where a therapeutic practitioner said something about this that hit me like thunder as it again reminded me of things she said to me (pfff).

 

You know AlwaysPuzzled as I understand it, even when they stay it will be with a lot of space. That means - as is constantly told - that you have to get your emotional needs met outside the relation. I do not know about you, but I do not want that.

 

Thanks for the explanation and reminder - I've read this too, but it helps to hear your confirmation.

 

Have you read about deactivating strategies?

 

from: Type: Dismissive-Avoidant | Jeb Kinnison

The dismissive attempts to limit his level of exposure to partners by manipulating his response, commonly by failing to respond to messages requesting assurance. In big and small ways, dismissives let you know that you are low on their priority list, and your inner emotional state is your problem—when you are with one, you are really still alone, in an attachment sense. By only partly participating in the normal message-response of the attached, they subconsciously limit the threat another poses to their independence. This behavior is called distancing (also called deactivating strategies), and all of us do it to limit our intimacy with others when we don’t want to be as close as they do, but for the dismissive it’s a tool to be used on the most important people in their lives.

 

from: The Avoidant Love Addict: Rewiring Patterns | Love Addiction Treatment

According to researchers, love avoidant types are good at keeping partners at a distance by using various “deactivating strategies,” actions characterized by a denial of attachment needs, and a “compulsive self-reliance.” Someone who is avoidant frequently engages in behaviors designed (consciously or unconsciously) to keep a partner at a distance in order to preserve one’s own autonomy or sense of independence.

 

I'm sure you recognize all of that, both from reading about it and dealing with it with her. I fully believe that when this guy used to disappear on his ex, break up on her birthday, dip out on throwing a NYE party together, be too hungover for a celebration for her mom, etc etc.... these were deactivating strategies, because he always seemed to bail out during times/events that would normally bring two people closer.

 

Maybe his "just friends" thing was another deactivating strategy, said to keep me at bay. I know a lot of people here think it's naive to think of it that way, but I think that you at least understand, from all your reading and research. It somehow hurts less if this is indeed what it was. I don't think I'm twisting the truth though - he really really seems to have deep avoidant issues. He said he wouldn't even miss his own parents if he moved out of state, and they have a great relationship, no turmoil. Wouldn't most people miss their parents? I would.

[snowflakes88]

It really hurts that he doesn't even care enough to reach out and say hello. Why doesn't he?!? We had a great time together, we got along great, we got to know each other so well. So why doesn't he even want to be in touch? Is it because I was so harsh with my "goodbye" speech, or because he doesn't want to lead me on? Or do I just not exist to him anymore? That's what it feels like.

 

I know this isn't the answer you want, but it could well be because he simply does not care. I mean, think back over the timeline. You meet this guy and everything is super great while his parents are out of town and he needs someone to be around to fill the space and amuse him and nurture him and allow him intimacy while they're gone and he has the house to himself. They return, the dynamic shifts, and you cut him off. Does he chase you? No. Does he fight you on it? No. He ignores you and moves on.

 

You beg and plead and apologize for daring to have feelings, and he throws you a crumb. But it's not enough, because he still doesn't want what you want, so you cut him off again. And again -- does he chase you? No. Does he fight you on it? No. He ignores you and moves on.

 

So you beg and plead and apologize for daring to have feelings, for months this time. You send him articles from the internet to try and convince him that no, it's not that you two shouldn't be together -- it's that he must have some condition that's just making it more difficult than it should be (*cringe*). And he continues to ignore you until -- CONVENIENTLY -- his parents are gone again, and he needs someone to be around to fill the space and amuse him and nurture him and allow him intimacy while they're gone and he has the house to himself. Until they return, when he stops contacting you. Again.

 

So you cut him off. Again. Does he chase you? No. Does he fight you on it? No.

 

He. Moves. On.

 

Do you see the pattern there? He is into you when it's convenient for him, when the house is empty and it's convenient for him to have the company of someone he KNOWS wants more than he does, as he already told you. And when he doesn't need that anymore -- *poof*. Trigger your cycle of misery --> ending whatever's left of it --> misery --> begging and pleading to re-start the very thing that made you miserable --> him ignoring you --> you continuing to beg and plead --> him caving the next time his parents are gone and he could use a few days or weeks of fun.

 

He lets you walk away because he's OK with it. He lets time lapse without you in his life because he's OK with it. That's the harsh reality. I know it's hard to see when you're in it, but you've got your rose-colored glasses on and the prescription is STRONG. Viewed objectively, this is hardly the ill-fated romance you've created in your head. This is a 30-something alcoholic still living at home with his parents who enjoys the benefit of your company when mommy and daddy leave him home alone and is content to have very little to do with you otherwise. THAT'S the guy you're placing on a pedestal and chasing your tail for. At some point, you're gonna have to knock him off.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

I just tried to add this to my last post in response to itspointless and it wouldn't allow me to edit it --

 

 

ETA:

I got side-tracked again, with the analyzing. Sigh. You're right that it would suck to be in a relationship where you never had your emotional needs met. It would really be quite horrible. I could see being able to do it for a short while, but it would be miserable long term.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

I know this isn't the answer you want, but it could well be because he simply does not care. I mean, think back over the timeline. You meet this guy and everything is super great while his parents are out of town and he needs someone to be around to fill the space and amuse him and nurture him and allow him intimacy while they're gone and he has the house to himself. They return, the dynamic shifts, and you cut him off. Does he chase you? No. Does he fight you on it? No. He ignores you and moves on.

 

You beg and plead and apologize for daring to have feelings, and he throws you a crumb. But it's not enough, because he still doesn't want what you want, so you cut him off again. And again -- does he chase you? No. Does he fight you on it? No. He ignores you and moves on.

 

So you beg and plead and apologize for daring to have feelings, for months this time. You send him articles from the internet to try and convince him that no, it's not that you two shouldn't be together -- it's that he must have some condition that's just making it more difficult than it should be (*cringe*). And he continues to ignore you until -- CONVENIENTLY -- his parents are gone again, and he needs someone to be around to fill the space and amuse him and nurture him and allow him intimacy while they're gone and he has the house to himself. Until they return, when he stops contacting you. Again.

 

So you cut him off. Again. Does he chase you? No. Does he fight you on it? No.

 

He. Moves. On.

 

Do you see the pattern there? He is into you when it's convenient for him, when the house is empty and it's convenient for him to have the company of someone he KNOWS wants more than he does, as he already told you. And when he doesn't need that anymore -- *poof*. Trigger your cycle of misery --> ending whatever's left of it --> misery --> begging and pleading to re-start the very thing that made you miserable --> him ignoring you --> you continuing to beg and plead --> him caving the next time his parents are gone and he could use a few days or weeks of fun.

 

He lets you walk away because he's OK with it. He lets time lapse without you in his life because he's OK with it. That's the harsh reality. I know it's hard to see when you're in it, but you've got your rose-colored glasses on and the prescription is STRONG. Viewed objectively, this is hardly the ill-fated romance you've created in your head. This is a 30-something alcoholic still living at home with his parents who enjoys the benefit of your company when mommy and daddy leave him home alone and is content to have very little to do with you otherwise. THAT'S the guy you're placing on a pedestal and chasing your tail for. At some point, you're gonna have to knock him off.

 

Yeah I feel like I say "You're right" all the time here, but you all really are right, and make such good points. I think you're right here. It just HURTS to see it this way.

 

So is he just a selfish, user jacka**? Because when you lay it out like that, how can he be anything else? I would never use someone like that. I think it's horrible.

 

I still do think I screwed it up that first time though. All that you said above, I believe applies to the second time. But after his parents got home (first time), we had about a week where he was still contacting every day, we went out and did things. He had told his parents about me. I gave it less than one week before I blew up at him, because I had the FEAR that what you said above is what was going to happen. He didn't pull away - I abruptly ended it.

 

QUESTION: If someone did to you what I did to him, how would you react? Say someone ended things coldly and semi-angrily over text, out of nowhere, when you'd done nothing wrong and things had been going along quite well. Then the person sent apology messages the next day, but let's say that you were a bit taken aback and put off that they had done this, and didn't immediately feel like forgiving and forgetting. So the day after that, you tried to say hello and be friendly, but the person again reacted angrily and started accusing you of stuff that had not even happened yet? Say this went on for a couple of days, and you were trying to be nice, but they just kept being cold and upset and angry for no reason. How was he SUPPOSED to react, ya know? And then let's say that this person then started flip-flopping between angry vs. apologetic text messages, completely overwhelming you with explanations and feelings, all while you were at the beach trying to decompress and take some time to yourself. The more messages this person sent, the more you realized you had the upper hand, and that you could have them back whenever you wanted. There was no hurry. It's quite the ego trip to have someone chasing you, wanting desperately to mend things with you. And you know that YOU did nothing wrong, so you may even think they deserve to have to chase their tail for a bit. And the longer it goes on, the less likely you are to respond, because you're getting a fix off watching this person go to every length to have you back, and it's quite frankly unattractive.

^^^^ THAT is what I think happened the first time ^^^^

 

But I do think you're right about the second time, sadly enough.

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

[snowflakes88]

 

I still do think I screwed it up that first time though. All that you said above, I believe applies to the second time. But after his parents got home (first time), we had about a week where he was still contacting every day, we went out and did things. He had told his parents about me. I gave it less than one week before I blew up at him, because I had the FEAR that what you said above is what was going to happen. He didn't pull away - I abruptly ended it.

 

Yes. And wisely so, given that he also told you that the he considered the two of you "just friends" during that timeframe. Telling his parents about you and hanging out means very little in the big scheme of things when he is telling you straight up that what you viewed as a huge romance, he viewed as a friendship.

 

QUESTION: If someone did to you what I did to him, how would you react? Say someone ended things coldly and semi-angrily over text, out of nowhere, when you'd done nothing wrong and things had been going along quite well. Then the person sent apology messages the next day, but let's say that you were a bit taken aback and put off that they had done this, and didn't immediately feel like forgiving and forgetting. So the day after that, you tried to say hello and be friendly, but the person again reacted angrily and started accusing you of stuff that had not even happened yet? Say this went on for a couple of days, and you were trying to be nice, but they just kept being cold and upset and angry for no reason. How was he SUPPOSED to react, ya know? And then let's say that this person then started flip-flopping between angry vs. apologetic text messages, completely overwhelming you with explanations and feelings, all while you were at the beach trying to decompress and take some time to yourself. The more messages this person sent, the more you realized you had the upper hand, and that you could have them back whenever you wanted. There was no hurry. It's quite the ego trip to have someone chasing you, wanting desperately to mend things with you. And you know that YOU did nothing wrong, so you may even think they deserve to have to chase their tail for a bit. And the longer it goes on, the less likely you are to respond, because you're getting a fix off watching this person go to every length to have you back, and it's quite frankly unattractive.

^^^^ THAT is what I think happened the first time ^^^^

 

But I do think you're right about the second time, sadly enough.

 

Again, you are ascribing thoughts and emotions to him that you really cannot unless you are in his head. But as for me, if I knew that someone wanted to be with me and I told them I viewed us as just friends -- I would understand if they cut me off. I'd understand why they might do so in an angry manner too, especially if I'd just spent extended amounts of time being intimate with them in a way that strongly suggested I viewed them as more than a friend. And though it's not the right thing to do, I might (and have) reached out a few days later in a cordial way, in an attempt to assuage my guilt and make myself feel a little better about the situation I created. And if that person went on to engage in the behavior you did -- being completely honest, I would think they were totally effing crazypants and disappear.

 

What I *wouldn't* do is later pop up to use them for company again when it was convenient for me, only to cut them off again when I no longer needed the company. And that's because I'm a decent person.