I love him but I don't know what he's thinking anymore

[AlwaysPuzzled]

You're welcome.

 

Well I hope I can help with insight, but, to specifically outline things for you in terms of what I as a dismissive personality type prefer, in attempt to bring this person back into your life, I cannot really say. At the end of the day, I am different then he and may react differently.

 

But see, this needs to be about you, and why you're drawn to emotionally unavailable men and what is it you can do to attract men who are stable and secure.

 

Sadly, there are certain types that are drawn to one another romantically, but it ultimately leads to a cycle of dysfunction and destruction. This short span of time apart from him, isn't quite enough for changes to occur within you. And, whose to say same for him, an alcoholic.

 

And that's not to dismiss that there was some form of a connection between you, obviously there was. But you need to figure out, why after only knowing him a short time, you were so overwhelmed by him emotionally. That will take some time to process, don't you think?

 

As for me, I'd want to be more aware of my thoughts, feelings and behaviors by approaching things slowly. I would need to successfully communicate that to said person. So in correlation to this man you speak of, it has to come from him.

 

Though I also think it isn't a good idea to be actively pursuing a man, as a woman, in the way you are attempting to do. It puts you both in opposite spectrums and I'm not sure that's the way to go. Especially given the dynamic of your personalities.

 

I've rambled on a bit but I hope it makes sense.

 

It does all make sense, thank you! I'm on my phone again so can't separate the quotes. Basically, in the natural sense of things, the man needs to pursue the woman. I agree with this fully. I think it's an issue that a lot of women run into. We're so "take charge" oriented, and we put so much more thought into things, that it feels natural for us to pursue and try to make things happen. But guys don't like or respond well to that, unfortunately. Furthermore, he has to be the one to to explore his own thoughts and feelings and then let me know. Did that sum up what you were saying?

 

I've backed way off and quit pursuing. I must say that I'm proud of myself for not trying to reverse my "goodbye" like I did last time. I still have these thoughts, obviously, of trying to figure out some way to approach him and make things work. But I haven't done anything! Thus far, I've taken it back pretty quickly - apologizing and explaining. I'm sure he expected me to do that this time as well, and may still think I eventually will. But I haven't. So that's major improvement.

 

I agree that certain types are drawn to each other and it creates dysfunction. But if just ONE person works on themselves and changes their way of being, it could positively affect the outcome, I think. It could lead the other to change their behavior by default, in reaction to what you're doing or not doing.

 

Thanks for your input. You seem to agree with almost everyone else that I should just let this go. I'm hearing it, even though I keep trying to find hope with him. If I had come here after the first time I called things off, I'm positive that I would not have spent two months messaging him. I wish I had come here sooner. But it is what it is, and the way I feel now, I kind of bet that I will have given up all these mental efforts come a week from now.

Edited November 30, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

[Divasu]

It does all make sense, thank you! I'm on my phone again so can't separate the quotes. Basically, in the natural sense of things, the man needs to pursue the woman. I agree with this fully. I think it's an issue that a lot of women run into. We're so "take charge" oriented, and we put so much more thought into things, that it feels natural for us to pursue and try to make things happen. But guys don't like or respond well to that, unfortunately. Furthermore, he has to be the one to to explore his own thoughts and feelings and then let me know. Did that sum up what you were saying?

 

I've backed way off and quit pursuing. I must say that I'm proud of myself for not trying to reverse my "goodbye" like I did last time. I still have these thoughts, obviously, of trying to figure out some way to approach him and make things work. But I haven't done anything! Thus far, I've taken it back pretty quickly - apologizing and explaining. I'm sure he expected me to do that this time as well, and may still think I eventually will. But I haven't. So that's major improvement.

 

I agree that certain types are drawn to each other and it creates dysfunction. But if just ONE person works on themselves and changes their way of being, it could positively affect the outcome, I think. It could lead the other to change their behavior by default, in reaction to what you're doing or not doing.

 

Thanks for your input. You seem to agree with almost everyone else that I should just let this go. I'm hearing it, even though I keep trying to find hope with him. If I had come here after the first time I called things off, I'm positive that I would not have spent two months messaging him. I wish I had come here sooner. But it is what it is, and the way I feel now, I kind of bet that I will have given up all these mental efforts come a week from now.

 

Yes I'm on iPad so can't do quotes either. To answer your first question, yes that about sums it up, in this case... Because I think for you and people like me, given experience with anxiety in the past, you start to become more controlling of the situation in attempt to curb the anxiety that you're feeling. Kind of like how you reacted when faced with uncertainty. I've been down that road, no worries. I get it.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

You go on and on about the progress you've made, and I'd really like to believe you, but two threads and twelve pages later you're still asking the exact same questions

 

My progress, small though it may be, is:

 

1) I'm not messaging him trying to fix it like I did the first time I called things off. I have stuck with my goodbye, and haven't tried to take it back a single time.

 

2) I'm not white-knuckling it in order not to message him - I actually truly feel no urge.

 

3) I've accepted that he's most likely no longer interested RIGHT NOW, which is all that it is important right now.

 

4) I have a greater understanding of how my own attachment style contributed to everything from being attracted to him to pushing him away. This will hopefully help me if he ever comes back, or in my next relationship.

 

Baby steps. This has all kept me from reaching out to him, which would have shown desperation. Instead, I have stuck with what I told him, and I didn't reach out for whatever crumbs he was willing to give me. You guys know that I want him back, but HE doesn't know that.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Yes I'm on iPad so can't do quotes either. To answer your first question, yes that about sums it up, in this case... Because I think for you and people like me, given experience with anxiety in the past, you start to become more controlling of the situation in attempt to curb the anxiety that you're feeling. Kind of like how you reacted when faced with uncertainty. I've been down that road, no worries. I get it.

 

Yep!!! Uncertainty is the worst - that's what I have such a hard time dealing with. That's why I call things off with them - I'd rather make the decision on my own and know it's done than deal with the uncertainty of not knowing.

 

Thanks for getting it

[AlwaysPuzzled]

My progress, small though it may be, is:

 

1) I'm not messaging him trying to fix it like I did the first time I called things off. I have stuck with my goodbye, and haven't tried to take it back a single time.

 

2) I'm not white-knuckling it in order not to message him - I actually truly feel no urge.

 

3) I've accepted that he's most likely no longer interested RIGHT NOW, which is all that it is important right now.

 

4) I have a greater understanding of how my own attachment style contributed to everything from being attracted to him to pushing him away. This will hopefully help me if he ever comes back, or in my next relationship.

 

Baby steps. This has all kept me from reaching out to him, which would have shown desperation. Instead, I have stuck with what I told him, and I didn't reach out for whatever crumbs he was willing to give me. You guys know that I want him back, but HE doesn't know that.

 

5). The more time that passes, the less I genuinely care about him. I'm still stuck on the high and the fun we had, and what could be or have been... but it's hard to care about someone who exhibits no signs that they care about you. Progress!!

[chimpanA-2-chimpanZ]

Can you really say that there aren't tons of guys out there who wouldn't balk at the boyfriend title 3 or 6 weeks in, no matter how much they liked someone? Guys are notorious for hating that kind of talk early on.

 

I do not consider myself particularly lucky in love (current boyfriend excepted! I'm such a winner!) but every man with whom I've had a relationship has agreed to be exclusive after four dates. Men are not delicate deer who have to be coaxed into a relationship. ALL people, male or female, are willing to commit when they like the person they're with. Do not try to justify this jerk's behavior.

 

So I will say again, aside from a handful of words, he never gave any indication that we were "just friends".

"So aside from explicitly telling me we were just friends, he never gave any indication."

 

I'm investing tons of thought still, obviously, but HE doesn't know that, at least! Thank god. By all appearances to him, I have moved on.

You're still contacting him and asking how he is even when he gives little to no response. No matter how little he gives you or how long he ignores you, you keep coming back for more. I assure you he knows you're giving this tons of thought.

 

As each day passes, I accept more and more that he no longer does.

Again, your repeated page-length posts about how he might still care and how there could be a second chance suggests you don't accept it at all.

 

So I just keep WONDERING, if I had chilled and not had so many anxieties, could it have grown into more? I think that's a legitimate question.

It's a legitimate question in the way "would Joe have liked me if I hadn't asked him out before lunch"* is a legitimate question. It is legitimate but it's also useless, because your behaviors can't be undone and it doesn't change where you are now. And for the record I believe the answer is no. If he had wanted more, he would have pursued it or be pursuing it now. He's not.

 

I guess my point was that he could ignore me again if he was sick of me or hated me, but he has made a concerted effort not to.

REPLYING TO A TEXT MESSAGE IS NOT A CONCERTED EFFORT. IT IS ABOUT AS MUCH EFFORT AS CHANGING CHANNELS.

 

I don't know if I've said this, but a week and a half after his parents got back, he was out of town working, and I wrote this message about being upset that he once again went MIA on me, blah blah blah. It was harsh. His reply was "I'll be back tonight." Why say that if he had no interest in seeing me again? Why not just ignore my message or something. Why tell me when he'd be back in town?

You entertain him. He likes your company, but not enough to be your boyfriend or date you or even ask about your day. He is willing to use you as his entertainment when you're blowing up his phone. Your text was a reminder that he could get some later that night if he wanted.

 

Women do this all the time, though. We're told not to cling, not to ask for anything, not to pressure, just be the cool girl, let him bring up commitment, never tell him how you feel, play hard to get. And no matter what we do, it always seems to be the wrong thing, because men are SO resistant to commitment that if we don't play our cards just right, he will disappear.

The only people telling you this are idiots on the Internet who are writing articles trying to take advantage of you low self-esteem. This garbage is exactly why you should not be reading any more relationship help books, because so many of them feed into this. No, sorry, men are no SO resistant to commitment! Men do not go running when someone asks about a relationship. When a man meets a woman who's truly special, he has no problem committing. She doesn't have to do or say anything; she just has to be herself, and he will fall over backwards to be the man for her. If you haven't seen this in the men you've dated, it's because you've dated men who weren't actually interested in you. That's all it is. "He's Just Not That Into You" became such a sensation because it was actually genuine. If you have to chase after someone, they're not very attracted to you anyhow. Someone who likes you leaves no doubt.

 

I still think that my expectations were too high for 6 weeks of dating, with a guy who is highly independent and resistant to commitment.

Some of the best advice I've ever heard: "there is no such thing as a fear of commitment, only a fear of settling." We all know people who seemed to hate commitment or marriage, even when they were in long-term relationships, only to meet someone new and get married within two years. It is possible to go decades without meeting someone who makes you rethink those ideals, but the fact is that no one ever feared making a commitment to someone they truly loved. If someone doesn't want to commit, it's because they're still thinking of what else is out there.

 

I don't know why I can't just stick with one line of thought. It's not just me who does this though (I hope!!!). The internet is filled with questions from people trying to get someone back, along with tons and tons of advice articles on how to go about it. Everyone has hope. And sometimes the hope pans out. I've seen it said that most exes DO come back around. I was thinking back on all the guys I've had anything to do with in the past, and I estimate that a good 2/3 of them came back around. There were two different guys in my past that I had brief flings with (flings for them - I got attached) who later came back around wanting me to move in with them for one reason or another. I had the one guy who came back around and we had a full-on relationship. I've had guys come back who I no longer wanted anything to do with. My first real love came back recently, 17 YEARS later, apologizing for how he treated me and wanting to take me out and how me how a man really should treat a woman. IT HAPPENS. All the time. And if it happens with this guy, I want to be self-aware enough not to sabotage it, and give it an honest chance.

All I got from this paragraph was an elaborate justification for why you won't attempt to move on. No, most exes do not come back, and this guy wasn't even a boyfriend or a lover so in his mind there's nothing to go back to. You are mindless short-term fun for him. He doesn't care how you feel about the situation.

 

* = No, he wouldn't have; that guy was a jerk. Joe, if you're out there, I still think you're a jerk.

Edited November 30, 2014 by chimpanA-2-chimpanZ

[elaine567]

Some of the best advice I've ever heard: "there is no such thing as a fear of commitment, only a fear of settling." We all know people who seemed to hate commitment or marriage, even when they were in long-term relationships, only to meet someone new and get married within two years. It is possible to go decades without meeting someone who makes you rethink those ideals, but the fact is that no one ever feared making a commitment to someone they truly loved. If someone doesn't want to commit, it's because they're still thinking of what else is out there.

 

Very true.

 

AlwaysPuzzled

Watch this.

[Itspointless]

My gosh you guys type a lot while I am asleep on the other side of the ocean. I am really grateful for your kind words.

How long did you date her? Forgive me if you already said....

From the very beginning to the end it only was four months. It also was long distance.

Honestly, you sound like the perfect person for her. You have the patience and understanding that she needs in order to slowly open up. I'm really sorry it didn't work out with her, and my heart goes out to you. I guess we can't make someone stick around and work it through with us. I think I've read that dismissives can be "normal" with others, but shut down with those with whom they are the closest?

Abandonment is a HUGE issue for me, too. In fact, I'd say it's THE issue. And what we fear, we create. Over the years, I've learned that in order not to be abandoned, I just have to get them before they get me. That's why I end things with everyone. It's not a good method, and doesn't lessen the pain! But it's a coping mechanism that I've learned, and it's hard to quit doing it. I do it with EVERYONE.

Yes, because the ones closes to them can hurt them the most. I guess I won’t have to tell you what her biggest fear was? She was abandoned as a small child as her parents had to send her away for education. And I guess you also do not have to guess what happened when she got stressed? Thank you for the compliments about my patience and understanding, I really am thankful that you write this. At the same time, it is what I have to be aware of the most (!) and I think you do too. We can’t help others. Unfortunately we want to help. Why, because we want to be needed, so we won’t get abandoned. I tried with her not to do this, but even my patience worked the opposite way. For her in the end my patience meant annoying pressure.

Those hopes are what makes it hard to heal and move on. You really don't want to move on if you don't have to - if there's any chance at all. But waiting around indefinitely for someone is just too painful, and it sounds like you did the right thing for yourself by cutting it off. It sounds, from your second sentence, like the trust was broken for you, as well

Beyond that, I sabotaged the entire thing by doing what I do. So really, I do believe that it WAS my fault. I KNOW I sabotaged it. I guess there's a fine line between being pathetic, and being self-aware and willing to own up to your own part in things.

I agree that certain types are drawn to each other and it creates dysfunction. But if just ONE person works on themselves and changes their way of being, it could positively affect the outcome, I think. It could lead the other to change their behavior by default, in reaction to what you're doing or not doing.

chimpanA-2-chimpanZ, said quite some things that really are important for you. I think it really is important to see that under your hope lies anxiety. You know the fact that you posted this thread in this forum and not the coping-forum says a lot. I recognize your anxiety, I really do. Just as with you sometimes people have to say the same things 20 times to me and even than I still hope that they are wrong, but I know better. For people without the anxiety this behavior is very hard to understand and usually it results in people getting annoyed. I knew I had to cut off the contact, but it was the very last thing I wanted to do. When I got her message I got a very strong urge to react back and apologize. Which of-course would have been weak in her world.

 

I also observe that you focus much more on your avoidance than your anxiety. It is not so strange as it facilitates you in blaming yourself. I hate to say it but I really think with the things you described about him that you only have sped up things with your behavior. His previous relations are proof that he pushes away everyone who comes close. You know if he is really avoidant (and he seems to be) he only can take your presence at a distance. This means that it is save for him to message you, but the moment you come to near, rinse and repeat. There is nothing we can do about it. Just as we can nothing do about the fact that he probably suppressed the things he felt in the first moments and has altered his memories and story about it as he thinks positive about himself and negative about others (just like narcissists).

 

The only thing we can do is learn why we feel attracted to them and work on curing ourselves and find secure people. There is a really good book by Klosko and Young psychologist about dysfunctional patterns called ‘Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthrough Program to End Negative Behavior and Feel Great Again’ I really recommended it to you as it also spoke to me.

[anna121]

For a while, I had a guy friend who was giving me the "inside view" on how guys act at times. He has since gotten a girlfriend, so he doesn't really have any time to talk anymore, but here are some interesting tidbits I picked up from him... ...

 

Obviously I'm applying these points to my own situation. I've asked this guy about "my guy" and he says he just can't figure him out, that he's unlike any other guy he knows. ...My friend used to know this guy - "my guy" used to work for him long long ago, and was best man at his wedding - but went a decade without talking to him. So he kinda knows him but not really.

 

Anyways. I feel in my gut that this guy was into me, and I keep trying to offer proof and evidence. Because if y'all believe me, then maybe you could help me figure out what I could do to correct the mistakes I've made that sabotaged the whole thing.

 

 

FWIW, I think your guy friend's advice is no more valid than the stuff you've been getting here. He actually sounds a bit avoidant himself, as well as into game playing. Ugh.

 

It is so hard to see your various rationalizations, going on 13 pages, for why your guy might really, really be into you.

 

Having read everything, I'm very sorry but I am finding that very, very hard to believe.

 

Consider this, though.

 

Liking you is not enough, anyway. He has to want to BE with you. He doesn't. NOT being with you is FAR more important to him than the benefit (such as it is) of being with you.

 

I know you wish time travel were real and you could go back and have a do-over. You can never change what you did and yes it IS possible that it freaked him out. You yourself have said you went a bit nuts. He does NOT want that, and he has had great evidence of exactly how you get when you are stressed.

 

But, even if time travel were available, you cannot change who you are without ALOT of effort and self-reflection. These actions/ reactions are INSTINCTIVE. He brings them out in you. That would NOT change, even with a do-over.

 

All the "proof and evidence" to date is that this thing has exactly zero chance of working out to your benefit. I mean, think of your OWN example of the guy who came back and you got into a relationship with. You actually describe him as abusive!!! Um....what? Is that really your example of how things could eventually work out?

 

I know it is hard. I have been there. Most of us have!! Hence why many of us are saying: Stick a fork in it. It's done.

[anna121]

I typed that last message before getting to the end.

 

I am glad to see what you wrote most recently. If you can stick to that train of thought, this will all go much quicker for you and you will be on your way to being free of him once and for all.

 

Good luck.

[Itspointless]

Very true.

 

AlwaysPuzzled

Watch this.

Hi Elaine, concerning the sentence: "there is no such thing as a fear of commitment, only a fear of settling." You sure are right that there are also many people who use, abuse and/or fool people. I read your story and I am really sorry for your siltation. I find it admirable that you try to warn others.

 

But I guess reality is also more nuanced as there also people who do not commit as they are afraid to be abandoned. These people actually often think they want to commit, but when they get the opportunity they sabotage and go cold or go away to be never seen again. On this website there are many examples to be found, even people who have been left by their fiancées only a few weeks before their wedding. A user named GreenPolicy has written down an example of it in 2010.

[elaine567]

Hi Elaine, concerning the sentence: "there is no such thing as a fear of commitment, only a fear of settling." You sure are right that there are also many people who use, abuse and/or fool people. I read your story and I am really sorry for your siltation. I find it admirable that you try to warn others.

 

But I guess reality is also more nuanced as there also people who do not commit as they are afraid to be abandoned. These people actually often think they want to commit, but when they get the opportunity they sabotage and go cold or go away to be never seen again. On this website there are many examples to be found, even people who have been left by their fiancées only a few weeks before their wedding. A user named GreenPolicy has written down an example of it in 2010.

 

"there is no such thing as a fear of commitment, only a fear of settling." Those are not my words but the words used by chimpanA-2-chimpanZ which I quoted.

But I do get if you do not commit then there is nothing to abandon, you cannot be abandoned if you duck out before any deep relationship is formed

If you never try or enter the game in the first place then by some twisted logic you cannot fail or lose.

[Itspointless]

But I do get if you do not commit then there is nothing to abandon, you cannot be abandoned if you duck out before any deep relationship is formed

If you never try or enter the game in the first place then by some twisted logic you cannot fail or lose.

Yes that is true and unfortunately some people do that to other people.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

I do not consider myself particularly lucky in love (current boyfriend excepted! I'm such a winner!) but every man with whom I've had a relationship has agreed to be exclusive after four dates. Men are not delicate deer who have to be coaxed into a relationship. ALL people, male or female, are willing to commit when they like the person they're with. Do not try to justify this jerk's behavior.

 

"So aside from explicitly telling me we were just friends, he never gave any indication."

 

You're still contacting him and asking how he is even when he gives little to no response. No matter how little he gives you or how long he ignores you, you keep coming back for more. I assure you he knows you're giving this tons of thought.

 

Again, your repeated page-length posts about how he might still care and how there could be a second chance suggests you don't accept it at all.

 

It's a legitimate question in the way "would Joe have liked me if I hadn't asked him out before lunch"* is a legitimate question. It is legitimate but it's also useless, because your behaviors can't be undone and it doesn't change where you are now. And for the record I believe the answer is no. If he had wanted more, he would have pursued it or be pursuing it now. He's not.

 

REPLYING TO A TEXT MESSAGE IS NOT A CONCERTED EFFORT. IT IS ABOUT AS MUCH EFFORT AS CHANGING CHANNELS.

 

You entertain him. He likes your company, but not enough to be your boyfriend or date you or even ask about your day. He is willing to use you as his entertainment when you're blowing up his phone. Your text was a reminder that he could get some later that night if he wanted.

 

The only people telling you this are idiots on the Internet who are writing articles trying to take advantage of you low self-esteem. This garbage is exactly why you should not be reading any more relationship help books, because so many of them feed into this. No, sorry, men are no SO resistant to commitment! Men do not go running when someone asks about a relationship. When a man meets a woman who's truly special, he has no problem committing. She doesn't have to do or say anything; she just has to be herself, and he will fall over backwards to be the man for her. If you haven't seen this in the men you've dated, it's because you've dated men who weren't actually interested in you. That's all it is. "He's Just Not That Into You" became such a sensation because it was actually genuine. If you have to chase after someone, they're not very attracted to you anyhow. Someone who likes you leaves no doubt.

 

Some of the best advice I've ever heard: "there is no such thing as a fear of commitment, only a fear of settling." We all know people who seemed to hate commitment or marriage, even when they were in long-term relationships, only to meet someone new and get married within two years. It is possible to go decades without meeting someone who makes you rethink those ideals, but the fact is that no one ever feared making a commitment to someone they truly loved. If someone doesn't want to commit, it's because they're still thinking of what else is out there.

 

All I got from this paragraph was an elaborate justification for why you won't attempt to move on. No, most exes do not come back, and this guy wasn't even a boyfriend or a lover so in his mind there's nothing to go back to. You are mindless short-term fun for him. He doesn't care how you feel about the situation.

 

* = No, he wouldn't have; that guy was a jerk. Joe, if you're out there, I still think you're a jerk.

 

On my phone again, so can't separate the quotes. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and it's another reality check for sure. But I still just don't think it's as black and white as "not that into you." NOT every man is going to commit within weeks of meeting someone they like. There are guys who will never commit, after coming out of a bad divorce. There are guys who are polyamorous who will never commit to just one woman no matter what. There are guys with low self-esteem who are so insecure that they push everyone away. There are sociopaths who never form true connections. Then there are guys for whom the time is just bad - if they're heavily involved in work and can't be distracted at the moment, or if they've lost their job and don't feel like a man, or if they're ill or have a family member who is ill. Then there are guys who have been seriously hurt in a relationship before and are determined not to open themselves up for that again. Or guys who are still young and want to play the field for as long as possible. Guys who are introverted and so independent that they don't believe they need anyone else in life. Guys with mental illness or attachment disorders. Alcoholics who live on shame and secrecy.

 

So I really do have to disagree with you there. There are people who are unwilling or unable to commit to ANYONE at certain times in there lives, if ever. And there are those who move really really slowly, knowing that it takes a long time to get to really know someone. I could go on and on with examples. The point is that not everyone is a healthy, secure individual without heaps of baggage. On the other side of the coin, you also have those guys who so desperately want a girlfriend that they will commit to anyone who is willing - just because they're committing doesn't mean that they're totally into that person.

Edited November 30, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Very true.

 

AlwaysPuzzled

Watch this.

 

I'll finish watching after I catch up here, since it's like 16 minutes long. I started it though, and the first reason men don't commit is because it's just too easy not too. Women don't make men commit. So how does that equate to "not that into her"? If he can get what he wants without commitment, he will do that. Even if he likes her, right?

 

I'll watch the rest in a few, thanks!

[chimpanA-2-chimpanZ]

the first reason men don't commit is because it's just too easy not too. Women don't make men commit. So how does that equate to "not that into her"? If he can get what he wants without commitment, he will do that. Even if he likes her, right?

 

No. If a woman doesn't ask for a commitment, it's her own fault. However, if a man genuinely likes a woman, he will happily commit if she asks.

 

You keep accusing me of black-and-white thinking and insisting that your situation is far more complicated than it is. If someone's issues are so extensive that they can't form a relationship, then there's no sense in fretting about them anyhow.

 

Honestly, I'm about to give up on this thread because you contort every piece of advice to fit your own predetermined conclusions. You refuse to accept that he isn't interested. If someone wants to be with you, they will try to be with you. They will tell you know they want to be with you. It really is that simple.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

From the very beginning to the end it only was four months. It also was long distance.

 

I really think it hurts the worst when short relationships fall apart, way more so than long relationships. If you're with someone for a long time, you at least get to see all their bad points, and all the little things they do to annoy you. With short relationships, you only see their good side, as they're on their best behavior during that time, and you haven't gotten the chance to fully know them. So it feels like they were a perfect person with no flaws, almost. With a long relationship, you know you've put the time in to give it a good try, and you know what didn't work. With a short relationship, you're always left wondering what could have been.

 

Thank you for the compliments about my patience and understanding, I really am thankful that you write this. At the same time, it is what I have to be aware of the most (!) and I think you do too. We can’t help others. Unfortunately we want to help. Why, because we want to be needed, so we won’t get abandoned. I tried with her not to do this, but even my patience worked the opposite way. For her in the end my patience meant annoying pressure.

 

I can see that. Just thinking further on this -- Maybe people don't want someone who it too accommodating. Maybe people want someone who will call them on their sh*t and not let them get away with crap. Someone who will force them to stretch and grow. I dated a guy for six months once who was exceedingly calm and patient. It eventually got on my nerves, because I simply wanted him to react to something - ANYTHING - instead of just passively accepting everything. This is probably not how you were, as you tried to communicate and talk about things. This ex I speak of didn't. I just bring it up because I think you're right in that too much patience can sometimes work against us.

 

You know the fact that you posted this thread in this forum and not the coping-forum says a lot.

 

It so does, huh?

 

chimpanA-2-chimpanZ, said quite some things that really are important for you. I think it really is important to see that under your hope lies anxiety. I recognize your anxiety, I really do. Just as with you sometimes people have to say the same things 20 times to me and even than I still hope that they are wrong, but I know better. For people without the anxiety this behavior is very hard to understand and usually it results in people getting annoyed.

 

YES. Unfortunately, yes.

 

I knew I had to cut off the contact, but it was the very last thing I wanted to do. When I got her message I got a very strong urge to react back and apologize. Which of-course would have been weak in her world.

 

You should feel very proud of your strength It's REALLY hard to overcome the urge to apologize or explain. I'm glad you left it without doing that.

 

I also observe that you focus much more on your avoidance than your anxiety. It is not so strange as it facilitates you in blaming yourself. I hate to say it but I really think with the things you described about him that you only have sped up things with your behavior. His previous relations are proof that he pushes away everyone who comes close. You know if he is really avoidant (and he seems to be) he only can take your presence at a distance. This means that it is save for him to message you, but the moment you come to near, rinse and repeat. There is nothing we can do about it.

 

So you think that my anxiety and avoidance just sped up the inevitable end. You're probably right. A more secure person would have soon ended things as well, as they wouldn't stick around for his hot and cold pushing and pulling. That's why anxious and avoidants often end up together - because the anxious are the only ones who are determined enough to stick it through.

 

My natural tendency really is to blame myself, always. That's one reason I keep analyzing him, because if I don't constantly remind myself of his faults, I just take on all the blame.

 

So forgive me for going on about him AGAIN, but it will help to just say this. He committed to his ex after 3 months, and yet look how he went on to treat her. Breaking up with someone on their birthday is almost sadistic, isn't it? Out of all the days surrounding that one day, he chose to leave on the morning of her birthday and ruin her whole day. They hadn't been fighting or anything. He just up and gathered his stuff and left out of nowhere. He must like hurting women. It must make him feel good. I can't, for the life of me, imagine why. And the whole time I was with him, he seemed like he'd never hurt a flea. It's very avoidant behavior, though - a birthday is a day in which you'd get closer, and I guess it made him need to run. He went back a few days or a week later.

 

Just as we can nothing do about the fact that he probably suppressed the things he felt in the first moments and has altered his memories and story about it as he thinks positive about himself and negative about others (just like narcissists).

 

Yes, I think he's probably done this for sure. He's probably rewritten history and blocked the whole thing out as if it meant nothing at all.

 

The only thing we can do is learn why we feel attracted to them and work on curing ourselves and find secure people. There is a really good book by Klosko and Young psychologist about dysfunctional patterns called ‘Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthrough Program to End Negative Behavior and Feel Great Again’ I really recommended it to you as it also spoke to me.

 

Adding this to my list, thank you!!!

[AlwaysPuzzled]

You're still contacting him and asking how he is even when he gives little to no response. No matter how little he gives you or how long he ignores you, you keep coming back for more. I assure you he knows you're giving this tons of thought.

 

I guess I was hoping that he would assume I'm over it since I'm not doing what I did last time I ended things. The first time, I immediately turned right around and tried to make amends and explain and apologize. I haven't done that this time, not at all, not once. I stuck to it. And I've only said hello once, and Happy Thanksgiving once, and I didn't reply again after he replied, I left it hanging. Last time, I was posting songs and quotes on my facebook page that surely indicated I was upset. This time, I'm just going about my business and not making any mention of it whatsoever. I've seen him online and I haven't said hello. I'm really not doing anything at all.

[Divasu]

Chimp is a bit correct on the issue of commitment in general regardless of a person's personality type. The thing is, while you may have jumped the gun on wanting a commitment, you essentially still wanted one, with him. He however, did not want one with you.

 

I recall after ending things with someone I dated for a brief period (similar circumstances but not an alcoholic, as far as I knew) but a month or so later, he was "in a relationship" with another woman. Now, I don't blame him for "moving on" but witnessing that was a slap in the face.

 

Someone in this thread mentioned living your life based on the evidence in front of you, and, I think that is a good rule to live by.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Thanks anna, this makes a lot of sense, much as I obviously hate to accept and believe it.

 

FWIW, I think your guy friend's advice is no more valid than the stuff you've been getting here. He actually sounds a bit avoidant himself, as well as into game playing. Ugh.

 

So many men are, though, aren't they? I guess I just don't know very many good men. My dad and my brother are good guys, maybe an uncle or two, an acquaintance here and there. But most of the guys I've met throughout my life are avoidant and game players (not just the ones I've personally dated). But I get your point.

 

Liking you is not enough, anyway. He has to want to BE with you. He doesn't. NOT being with you is FAR more important to him than the benefit (such as it is) of being with you.

 

You're right

 

I know you wish time travel were real and you could go back and have a do-over. You can never change what you did and yes it IS possible that it freaked him out. You yourself have said you went a bit nuts. He does NOT want that, and he has had great evidence of exactly how you get when you are stressed.

 

But, even if time travel were available, you cannot change who you are without ALOT of effort and self-reflection. These actions/ reactions are INSTINCTIVE. He brings them out in you. That would NOT change, even with a do-over.

 

Right again. Good point. I guess I've been thinking that now that I'm more aware of my tendencies, I could figure out something to do that would keep them at bay. But they really are instinctive. I guess the only way it would work is if I could explain to him where it comes from, and he had the patience to just ride through it, maybe offer a bit of reassurance when I need it. But that aint gonna be happening. As each day passes, I do see more and more that he doesn't want to be with me. He probably didn't think I would stick with the goodbye, and that I would still come back around looking for crumbs. So it would take some time for him to see that I really was serious, but since he surely knows by now that I am, and he hasn't reached out, I can pretty much realize he doesn't care.

 

I'm actually giving myself a headache with all the what-if's and all the analyzing and all the what-can-I-do-now's. I think I'm about done with it. About time, huh?!?

 

All the "proof and evidence" to date is that this thing has exactly zero chance of working out to your benefit. I mean, think of your OWN example of the guy who came back and you got into a relationship with. You actually describe him as abusive!!! Um....what? Is that really your example of how things could eventually work out?

 

Well... I know. I didn't work out in a great way, but he did come back, and we did have an actual relationship. That was my point. He just happened to be an abusive individual. When I talked to him years after the fact, he hadn't had any more serious relationships. Some people are just so full of issues that it makes it difficult to have real relationships (present company included). It's really NOT always a matter of just-not-that-into-you (I don't know why that idea gets under my skin so bad, grrr).

 

I know it is hard. I have been there. Most of us have!! Hence why many of us are saying: Stick a fork in it. It's done.

 

That's why I came here! I've been resistant to hearing it, because I wanted soooo badly for something to work with him. But if 95% of all people (here, my friends, my parents, his ex) are telling me that there is zero chance of it working, I eventually have to accept the opinion of the majority. It's hard to see things like everyone else does, when you're so deep in it. Y'all have a lot of patience. I'm surprised you're all still here, frankly. I'd be annoyed with me by now! In fact, I AM annoyed with me. Like I said, I'm starting to give myself a headache. I guess you eventually just get tired of the effort.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Hi Elaine, concerning the sentence: "there is no such thing as a fear of commitment, only a fear of settling." You sure are right that there are also many people who use, abuse and/or fool people. I read your story and I am really sorry for your siltation. I find it admirable that you try to warn others.

 

I haven't read yours, elaine, but I'm sorry if you've been through something hurtful as well. I'll have to take some time later and read what you've gone through. Hugs.

 

But I guess reality is also more nuanced as there also people who do not commit as they are afraid to be abandoned. These people actually often think they want to commit, but when they get the opportunity they sabotage and go cold or go away to be never seen again. On this website there are many examples to be found, even people who have been left by their fiancées only a few weeks before their wedding. A user named GreenPolicy has written down an example of it in 2010.

 

This is exactly what I keep trying to say, over and over again. People seem to think that fear of commitment is a myth. But there are SO many elements that contribute towards a person's willingness or ability to commit. Sure, maybe an entirely healthy/secure individual may only commit to *the one* once he/she finds it. But most people have a whole host of issues that make relationships scary and difficult. Not wanting to commit does not always equal not liking that person enough.

 

And what about those who DO commit? A lot of them then go on to cheat, or abuse, or dump them two weeks later, or bail out before the wedding like itspointless's example.

 

It's all just very messy and complicated. People aren't cardboard cutouts.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

But I do get if you do not commit then there is nothing to abandon, you cannot be abandoned if you duck out before any deep relationship is formed

If you never try or enter the game in the first place then by some twisted logic you cannot fail or lose.

 

Right. I think a lot of people live this way.

[anna121]

Thanks anna, this makes a lot of sense, much as I obviously hate to accept and believe it.

 

 

 

So many men are, though, aren't they? I guess I just don't know very many good men. My dad and my brother are good guys, maybe an uncle or two, an acquaintance here and there. But most of the guys I've met throughout my life are avoidant and game players (not just the ones I've personally dated). But I get your point.

 

 

 

No - not really. Have I met avoidant men? You bet! But when men were interested in ME, they were not avoidant. Even though I knew - and had even witnessed! - them being avoidant with other women.

 

So, so much of this is about chemistry and connection. I know you felt both with him - I believe you! But whatever he was feeling (and I am sure that in many ways it would have been quite pleasant), it wasn't enough.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

No. If a woman doesn't ask for a commitment, it's her own fault. However, if a man genuinely likes a woman, he will happily commit if she asks.

 

I'm at a loss about how you're supposed to ask for commitment, without coming across as clingy and desperate and pushy. I never ask for commitment. I just get upset when I realize that it's not being given, and I get angry and bail. How might I ask someone, instead?

 

You keep accusing me of black-and-white thinking and insisting that your situation is far more complicated than it is. If someone's issues are so extensive that they can't form a relationship, then there's no sense in fretting about them anyhow.

 

I don't mean to accuse YOU of black and white thinking. It's the whole idea in itself ("he's just not that into you") that really bugs me. A ton of people think the same way you do about it. I'm not attacking you or discounting what you're saying - I'm just debating the idea.

 

Honestly, I'm about to give up on this thread because you contort every piece of advice to fit your own predetermined conclusions. You refuse to accept that he isn't interested. If someone wants to be with you, they will try to be with you. They will tell you know they want to be with you. It really is that simple.

 

Well I can see that you're getting frustrated with me, and if you want to go because you don't like my way of thinking, then go. I actually value your input, even if I do debate it. I would be getting annoyed with me, too, though. So I get it.

 

I don't think I'm refusing to accept that he's not interested. I think I actually have accepted that he's not interested anymore. I don't think think I can be convinced that he never was, because I KNOW that he was (the first time). He WAS trying to be with me the first time. The second time, not so much. Now, not at all. I accept that.

[AlwaysPuzzled]

Chimp is a bit correct on the issue of commitment in general regardless of a person's personality type. The thing is, while you may have jumped the gun on wanting a commitment, you essentially still wanted one, with him. He however, did not want one with you.

 

I recall after ending things with someone I dated for a brief period (similar circumstances but not an alcoholic, as far as I knew) but a month or so later, he was "in a relationship" with another woman. Now, I don't blame him for "moving on" but witnessing that was a slap in the face.

 

Someone in this thread mentioned living your life based on the evidence in front of you, and, I think that is a good rule to live by.

 

What a nightmare (the part in bold). I fear this happening, and yes, total slap in the face.

 

I guess I just don't get the timeline for commitment, or why it's set in stone that if someone doesn't commit right away, it means they don't ever want a commitment with you. My brother has been in a great relationship for years, and it took them months to commit. He says it takes a while to really get to know someone and take that step. This guy didn't commit with his ex until 3 months in. 3 weeks really is EARLY, as is 6 weeks. Personally, if I really liked a guy, and he asked for commitment at 3 weeks, I'd be a little sketched out. I've had it happen. I agreed to it and stuck with it long enough to let the initial "freak-out" pass, but it definitely threw me for a loop, even though I really liked the guy.