I love him but I don't know what he's thinking anymore

November 27, 2014

I'm sorry that you had to go through this with her. I know the pain!!! I guess we have to remind ourselves of the cliche saying, how it's better to have loved and lost. At least for a short time, we were able to experience something that felt wonderful with someone. It seems that the more intense/dramatic relationships are the ones that always end, but also the ones that give us the most extreme happiness.

Thank you for these kind words. The hardest part for me was/is knowing she had to undergo some heavy surgery and I have no clue how she is doing. It is a harsh reminder of the illness and death of my mother in my teenage years. It was intense but I start to think that relations are not meant to be that intense.

I've taken this test! It places me as a fearful-avoidant. I feel that at times I fall into the preoccupied side of things, as well, though.

It is not surprizing you feel that you also fall at the preoccupied side, The name fearful-avoidant is a bit misleading. You remember that I said 'Dismissive-avoidants have a positive view of self and a negative view of others'. Anxious people (I am somewhere in the left corner of that quadrant have a positive view of others and an negative view of self. Fearful-avoidant last but not least have a negative view of others and a negative view of self. Now it is a spectrum so we can have traits that also can fall almost in other quadrants or feel safer with certain people and hence be a bit different with them. Having said this, usually attachment behaviour becomes clear in times of stress/fear/feeling low, it is primary behaviour ingrained in our nervous-system.

I really advice you to learn more about it or search for therapy. Attachment theory has its origin in developmental psychology. It actually are early experiences with our caregivers that shape our attachment-behaviour for a large part. You know your outcome indicates that your attachment behaviour probably also must have puzzled people in the past. People in that category fall into both the traps of the avoidant and the anxious category: 'Like dismissingly avoidant individuals, fearfully avoidant people often cope by withdrawing and distancing themselves from relationship partners. Unlike their dismissing counterparts, however, who deny being afraid or needing anyone’s support, the “fearful avoidants” continue to experience anxiety, ambivalence, and a desire for the relationship partner’s love and support.' (Mikulincer & Shaver, 2007, p. 42), See also: Type: Fearful-Avoidant (aka Anxious-Avoidant) | Jeb Kinnison

Oh, he definitely does. He may have some deep-seated insecurities, but he comes across as highly self-confident. He's said that most people in this world make him feel like a genius because they're so stupid, lol. I guess we've all felt that way at times. But he knows how intelligent and talented he is, and how good-looking. He has a very high view of himself. I think he is dismissive-avoidant, and the drinking allows him to let down his guard and be extremely intimate. I've also read that these people come on really strong in the beginning, but when it becomes apparent that a connection is forming, they bail. He does have a history of intense short relationships. Even with his ex of three years, he kept disappearing and leaving all the time, right at times when a couple would normally get closer (her birthday, New Year's Eve, moving in together). Another ex has been an on-and-off situation for years. And then his ex told me about a few girls he had in rotation while with her, that he would see periodically for short intense periods of time. I really do think he's avoidant, and can only handle so much closeness.

Also gotta mention that his ex said they were together on and off for three years. He always told her that it wasn't cheating because they weren't "together," even though they were living and sleeping together! His version is that they dated for about 6 months and then she stalked him for 2 years. I believe her version.

Yeah, he shows a lot of avoidant tendencies. You know what strucks me here is that fearful-avoidance is often connected with some kind of abuse in childhood, alcoholism of one of the parents is regularly mentioned. Read Kinnison his article, perhaps it gives you some clues.

November 27, 2014

I'm going to go against the grain here and tell you to trash the relationship books.

I have to react to this as most of the titles I posted are from highly respected psychologists, doctors in their fields. Yes, knowing what to read is important, having said that knowledge in my world still means power. I am actually posting all that stuff so that AlwaysPuzzled can introspect and learn.

November 27, 2014

Why are you bothering investigating HIS personality?

What is the point?

You are not together and are unlikely to be together ever again in any sense of a normal, loving, caring relationship.

He has told you so many times and in so many different ways that you are not "the one" for him.

His exes tried and failed too, they are not "the one" either.

One day I guess he will surprise you all and go off and marry some girl out of the blue and leave you all stunned.

Stop beating yourself up, stop analysing him and get yourself sorted out.

He may have some deep-seated insecurities, but he comes across as highly self-confident. He's said that most people in this world make him feel like a genius because they're so stupid, lol. I guess we've all felt that way at times. But he knows how intelligent and talented he is, and how good-looking. He has a very high view of himself. I think he is dismissive-avoidant, and the drinking allows him to let down his guard and be extremely intimate. I've also read that these people come on really strong in the beginning, but when it becomes apparent that a connection is forming, they bail. He does have a history of intense short relationships. Even with his ex of three years, he kept disappearing and leaving all the time, right at times when a couple would normally get closer (her birthday, New Year's Eve, moving in together). Another ex has been an on-and-off situation for years. And then his ex told me about a few girls he had in rotation while with her, that he would see periodically for short intense periods of time. I really do think he's avoidant, and can only handle so much closeness.

Also gotta mention that his ex said they were together on and off for three years. He always told her that it wasn't cheating because they weren't "together," even though they were living and sleeping together! His version is that they dated for about 6 months and then she stalked him for 2 years. I believe her version.

November 28, 2014

First of all, I have to say that we have to be very careful with putting labels onto others. While reading your story, I read that you are pretty anxious. I recommend you to do this test. It give me a better view onto myself: Attachment Styles and Close Relationships Knowing how we perhaps can place the other is in the end helpful as it gives us a hint as to what problems we have to search with ourselves and need to work on.

I did the survey for fun. My attachment-related anxiety score is 1.89, and attachment-related avoidance score is 2.06. The scale is from 1 to 7. There was a neat graphic, and it placed me in the secure region of it, almost at the top-left. This is neat.

I do this over and over again. It's so painful and always ends badly, and yet I keep doing it (going for the casual guys). Something in me is highly attracted to these kinds of guys. I'm drawn to them like a flame. This particular guy never said he wanted casual, but I probably sensed it early on, given that he was a bit evasive about what he was looking for.

I don't know how to break out of it. I'm in my later 30's, and this has been my relationship pattern my entire life. Over and over again. I read that being in a relationship with a person of secure attachment style for some length of time can lift an anxious or avoidant into being more secure themselves, for what it's worth. Maybe I'll find someone like that one day. In the meantime, I need to figure out how to do the internal work. It's something that makes complete sense in concept, but I don't really know where to start. I'll think on that. I guess being more self-aware and informed is the first step.

You recognize your weakness, which is good. Knowing is half of the battle. An overly simplified explanation of your desire for such men is their unavailability. I'm saying this to help you break down the complexity of your situation to a simplified element. Which is the way you need to tackle this problem. In a simplified way. Try to discipline yourself to avoid such men that exhibit the tendencies that draw you to them. I'm sure this is will be a difficult exercise because their unavailability will also factor in to your attraction to them, but you'll have to separate that element, isolate it, and willfully resist it. You can start with this man. Build up discipline, build up your boundary, don't indulge him.

So you do think he's doing a lot of this on purpose then? I was sure of it during those two months he was ignoring me, like I posted upthread. I do feel he plays mind games with the texting. But then I think, he really does seem to be such a kind and compassionate person, why would he do that? And I start to doubt myself. It's crazy-making! Maybe he has some hidden lack of confidence, and having a girl chase him makes him feel good about himself. It helps that none of you seem to think he's actually a great guy. I wish I could fully, deep-down believe that he's not. His ex said that his parents, her family, and all their friends felt sorry for her, because they could see how badly he was treating her. And she and her friends thought maybe he's a sociopath. I became convinced at one point that he's a narcissist. But then it was back to putting him on a pedestal as the sweetest guy in the whole world.

I don't think he is a good guy just solely on his alcoholism. Personally, I never trust anyone that is an alcoholic, or simply abuses alcohol to help them get through some troubles. But this is my opinion. Aside from that, I'm sure he has treated you with kindness, was charming, maybe even romantic at some points. He may not even be a bad guy. But you know very well he does it to manipulate, to control. So he is definitely a sociopath, or at least has sociopathic tendencies.

I probably will have to do some of this at some point, and I agree that it might be best. But thinking of taking all those drastic measures of deleting everything just makes me feel sick. I'm not ready yet, but when I'm ready, I will. I guess I should give up on any hopes of it working out in the future, huh? That's one reason I wanted to keep a connection, just in case it could work out with us later. But if he's this toxic, he's probably not going to change. I need to accept that.

Deleting him from your life is best to do like pulling a band-aid off. Do it really quick so it will hurt for the shortest amount of time, than pulling it slowly off and extending the pain. Believe me, it is a great feeling to do such a ritual. Great catharsis.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm lashing out at you Elaine, because I'm not, but I feel defensive of the view you presented. It's not as if he normally has great relationships, and he just so happened to use and toss me because I wasn't good enough. I know YOU aren't saying I wasn't good enough, but that's how it feels, if he did indeed do that. He has a history of crappy behavior with women. He also has an ex-wife from years ago who he cheated on. They were married for 5 years. That's all I know. He claims that every single one of the women he's dated were "nuts" and "crazy". All of them. I've mentioned the girl he's strung along for years. From what I gather, he led her on and then dropped her during the second month he was ignoring me. He does this same thing to ALL women. So it's not as if i came along, and just wasn't his type, and he really just didn't like me enough but thought I would do for the moment. And then I'm so bad at reading situations, and so desperate to be loved, that I misconstrued the whole situation and became a nuisance who refused to give up and go away. He CREATES this situation with ALL women. He comes on super-strong in the beginning, draws them in and engulfs them with attention and affection. I really think he feels it too. And then eventually, when a conflict arises or he realizes that they want more than he is capable of giving or sustaining, he bolts. It doesn't mean he didn't care about me, or them, or that he saw it as a fling in the moment. As for me "hounding" him - like I said above, this situation is crazy-making. It's confusing that someone can be so into it, and them all of a sudden turn cold and shut you out. I mentioned that his ex is not an anxious style, and yet she did all the same things I've done. She called and texted him endlessly when he would disappear. She spent days crying in pain. Everything would be going along normally, he'd be sweet and present, and then he'd break up with her out of nowhere on her birthday. And then he'd go back. Maybe he went back to her because he learned that he could, whereas I get extremely harsh and abrasive when he disappears. He also lived with her, so he kind of had to go back.

It's good you know this about him, which should give you the perspective that he isn't going to change. At least you are not going to be able to change him. He would need to do it himself. He has a pattern that he is miserably comfortable with, and he hurts the women in his life. Let go of him. I understand it is difficult, because you are focusing on his good side, but you are driving yourself mad by making excuses for him. Just let go.

Happy Turkey Day.

November 28, 2014

Always, Self help books can be useful. But sometimes we google our cold symptoms and before get off the computer we think we are dying from the plague. So, I take self help books with a grain of salt. My therapist recommended a couple to me during my sessions and part of my homework was to read certain chapters and then next session we would discuss them. That way I could read do some research, and still have some feedback on what I was reading and we would discuss how items applied to me and my situation. It kept me from going down a rabbit hole.

That is the problem with many books, they are impossible to write exactly what is going on with you, as an individual.

Blocking him is never going to be easy. I threw up the day I blocked my ExH. But it made my life better. It is not meant to be this big dramatic deal. It is simply a "I am so tired of this mess so I need to heal"

I don't really think any posters have meant that you are not good enough for him. Just that you are not right for him. But more important, he is not right for you.

I kinda want to shoot a nerf dart at you when you started talking about finding a stable guy to help you get more stable. That is the way to more pain and more drama. You need to get yourself out of this hole. You need to do the work to make yourself more stable. It is the same for people looking for that special someone to make them happy. That person does not exist. You must be happy in your self. And you must be stable in yourself.

Nobody else can do it for you. Nobody.

But here is the amazing thing. YOU can do it. All by yourself.

Try this exercise. Stand up. in the middle of the room stand up. You didn't need any help. Look at your feet, see how solid they are, how planted they are, how capable they are. That is you.

You are an amazing person, unique in all the world. There is NOBODY exactly like you. Think about it. Nobody is like you. So before anyone else can come to love and want to be with the one and only you...you have to learn to love the one and only you. Don't be afraid of you. Revel in it.

Once that happens...the only eggshells you will have to worry about is the ones in your omelet.

November 28, 2014

Hi everyone. Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving! I'm a bit behind on posts here, so I may not comment on every statement as I normally do - but I have read it all, and appreciate the input as always

It was intense but I start to think that relations are not meant to be that intense.

I've read that this kind of intensity is a relationship red flag.

Now it is a spectrum so we can have traits that also can fall almost in other quadrants or feel safer with certain people and hence be a bit different with them. Having said this, usually attachment behaviour becomes clear in times of stress/fear/feeling low, it is primary behaviour ingrained in our nervous-system.

Great point! I guess those times of stress/fear could be something within our own lives, or it could be directly triggered by something that our partner does that creates a fear in us, and we react accordingly. And I guess it's so ingrained that we can't force ourselves to act any differently. Even if we white-knuckle it through the fear for a while, it still ends up coming out. When I get anxious about something, I can try my best to play it cool, and I can pull it off for a short while; but it's only a matter of time before it comes bubbling to the surface, and I react like I've always reacted to such things.

You know your outcome indicates that your attachment behaviour probably also must have puzzled people in the past.

I bet you're right! I've found myself wondering if people actually know that I'm interested at times, because I sometimes pull away, act hot and cold, try to show disinterest for fear of seeming clingy, etc. And then there are the moments where I get angry/upset and try to cut them out of my life for good, seemingly out of nowhere. Like with this guy the first time that I called it off - my anxieties were building, and came out all at once when I said it was over. But to him, things probably seemed just fine. Then he told me he was going to the beach, and all of a sudden I'm questioning what we are, and telling him that it's all completely over. Within the span of a few minutes, I switched from being warm and fun and laid-back, to pressuring him and putting him on the spot with a "what are we" question, to cold and angry and kicking him out of my life. Geez, what was he supposed to think? Things were GREAT up til that point. This is why I feel like I ruined it all, during that one fateful moment. Then everything went downhill after that. I wish so badly that I could go back and not do what I did, but like I said a minute ago, it was bound to come out at some point.

People in that category fall into both the traps of the avoidant and the anxious category: 'Like dismissingly avoidant individuals, fearfully avoidant people often cope by withdrawing and distancing themselves from relationship partners. Unlike their dismissing counterparts, however, who deny being afraid or needing anyone’s support, the “fearful avoidants” continue to experience anxiety, ambivalence, and a desire for the relationship partner’s love and support.'

Thanks for this excerpt. SO TRUE. I can pull away and shut someone out, but internally, I'm wanting nothing more than to be with them. I need reassurance in those moments, but refuse to ask for it, so I just shut them out instead. Then I panic that I might actually lose them, so I turn right around and try to cling to them.

Yeah, he shows a lot of avoidant tendencies.

I'm glad you can see it. I really don't think he "just wasn't that into me." I'm totally into him, and look how I acted, based on my own issues. Why couldn't it be the same for him? If he's avoidant, then he's totally following the pattern, and it's what he does. Being into me wouldn't change what is ingrained in him to do.

You know what strucks me here is that fearful-avoidance is often connected with some kind of abuse in childhood, alcoholism of one of the parents is regularly mentioned. Read Kinnison his article, perhaps it gives you some clues.

Neither of my parents drank at all, and there was no abuse, but my childhood was extremely chaotic and downright miserable. I'll read this article, thanks!!!

November 28, 2014

Why are you bothering investigating HIS personality?
What is the point?

Because like itspointless said about books, *knowledge is power*.

He was 50% of the equation here, and after this whole thing has caused me THIS much stress and pain, I want to make damn sure I never go through this again. Figuring him out seems essential to figuring the whole mess out, which seems an important step towards learning more about myself and preventing this kind of thing in the future.

I also find him interesting. I'm obviously still hung up on him. I told above of the relationship I had in the past with someone, where we had parted and reunited. I've had many many "exes" come back around later, and if he ever does come back around, I would like a good solid shot with him. It's not out of the realm of possibility that it could happen. If there's a better way to relate to him, I want to know about it.

November 28, 2014

I did the survey for fun. My attachment-related anxiety score is 1.89, and attachment-related avoidance score is 2.06. The scale is from 1 to 7. There was a neat graphic, and it placed me in the secure region of it, almost at the top-left. This is neat.

Cool, huh! I didn't even notice the numerical scorings. I still have my results open in a tab, so went back and looked. Mine says:

Your attachment-related anxiety score is 6.67, on a scale ranging from 1 (low anxiety) to 7 (high anxiety). Your attachment-related avoidance score is 5.17, on a scale ranging from 1 (low avoidance) to 7 (high avoidance).

So I guess I do have pretty high avoidance traits. And the anxiety score is about as high as it could get Wow.

You recognize your weakness, which is good. Knowing is half of the battle. An overly simplified explanation of your desire for such men is their unavailability. I'm saying this to help you break down the complexity of your situation to a simplified element. Which is the way you need to tackle this problem. In a simplified way. Try to discipline yourself to avoid such men that exhibit the tendencies that draw you to them. I'm sure this is will be a difficult exercise because their unavailability will also factor in to your attraction to them, but you'll have to separate that element, isolate it, and willfully resist it. You can start with this man. Build up discipline, build up your boundary, don't indulge him.

Yep, that's the hard part - resisting it. In the future, I will keep this in mind and avoid the unavailable. Best to catch it when I realize the attraction is high, but before I get so emotionally attached. With him, I didn't realize he was unavailable, because he came on so strong in the beginning (which is something else I need to avoid, I guess - guys who come on extremely strongly from the start). I thought he was SO available. I couldn't believe my luck for having met him. Maybe my subconscious picked up on his unavailability.

I don't think he is a good guy just solely on his alcoholism. Personally, I never trust anyone that is an alcoholic, or simply abuses alcohol to help them get through some troubles. But this is my opinion. Aside from that, I'm sure he has treated you with kindness, was charming, maybe even romantic at some points. He may not even be a bad guy. But you know very well he does it to manipulate, to control. So he is definitely a sociopath, or at least has sociopathic tendencies.

You're probably right. I'm thinking back right now to one of the times he said he loved me. He said "I love you. That's what you want to hear, right?" And I was a bit taken aback that he said that second part. I'd given no prompting whatsoever suggesting I wanted to hear it. Sociopaths figure out what you want, and they provide it. But god, they can be sooo convincing.

Deleting him from your life is best to do like pulling a band-aid off. Do it really quick so it will hurt for the shortest amount of time, than pulling it slowly off and extending the pain. Believe me, it is a great feeling to do such a ritual. Great catharsis.

It's good you know this about him, which should give you the perspective that he isn't going to change. At least you are not going to be able to change him. He would need to do it himself. He has a pattern that he is miserably comfortable with, and he hurts the women in his life. Let go of him. I understand it is difficult, because you are focusing on his good side, but you are driving yourself mad by making excuses for him. Just let go.

I'm still not ready to completely let go yet. I still have hope (sorry, pathetic I know). Hope that maybe if we came back together, I could take my new found self-awareness coupled with my greater understanding of him, and see if things could work. Or maybe after some time has passed and the drama and wounds have healed, and I've worked on myself in the meantime, things could be different. I don't really want to cut the ties with him. Also, I did try that last time, and panicked, which set off my frantic two-month stretch of messaging trying to reverse it. So I'll wait until the fog has cleared, and then make a decision. I agree that it would be cathartic, but I know I have to be ready.

He has a pattern that he is miserably comfortable with, and he hurts the women in his life.

This is true, and that's why I don't believe that he just wasn't that into me (that way of thinking just really depresses me and gets under my skin, and isn't productive to my well-being at all). He's not going to just miraculously meet the perfect girl one day and all of a sudden commit and it will be rainbows and butterflies. He has issues, and a deeply ingrained pattern. I guess saying this is a bit contradictory to my having hopes that he and I could have another chance, but who knows.

Edited November 28, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

November 28, 2014

Always, Self help books can be useful. But sometimes we google our cold symptoms and before get off the computer we think we are dying from the plague. So, I take self help books with a grain of salt. My therapist recommended a couple to me during my sessions and part of my homework was to read certain chapters and then next session we would discuss them. That way I could read do some research, and still have some feedback on what I was reading and we would discuss how items applied to me and my situation. It kept me from going down a rabbit hole.

That is the problem with many books, they are impossible to write exactly what is going on with you, as an individual.

That sounds like an excellent approach. I'm glad you were able to have that kind of therapy - I'm sure it was immensely helpful. I've been to therapy before, many times, but none of them ever wanted to work with me on relationship problems. Kind of makes me angry, thinking back on it. That's what I need the most help with, because it disrupts my life to such a huge extent. But yes, I agree with what you say about self-help books. I think they are a great tool for deeper self-analysis. There is something valuable in just about everything we read, as long as we're open-minded and aware enough not to take every sentence as set in stone. That said, some are less beneficial than others.

Blocking him is never going to be easy. I threw up the day I blocked my ExH. But it made my life better. It is not meant to be this big dramatic deal. It is simply a "I am so tired of this mess so I need to heal"

I've done this with other guys in the past, and it really was helpful. With him, I'm not ready yet. But there are times when it's completely necessary in order to break a self-destructive pattern, like with you and the cyberstalking. I've been doing less of that with him these past few days, so I feel it's getting better on its own for the moment. If I get stuck in the obsessive pattern again, I probably will have to block him. You say you threw up when you did it - I can understand that! Did you feel panicked for a while after that, or did you feel a pretty quick relief?

I don't really think any posters have meant that you are not good enough for him. Just that you are not right for him. But more important, he is not right for you.

I know people don't mean to say that <3 It's just how I take it. I feel like if I'm not right for him, it's because I'm not good enough. I guess that's my insecurities and low-worth talking.

I kinda want to shoot a nerf dart at you when you started talking about finding a stable guy to help you get more stable. That is the way to more pain and more drama. You need to get yourself out of this hole. You need to do the work to make yourself more stable. It is the same for people looking for that special someone to make them happy. That person does not exist. You must be happy in your self. And you must be stable in yourself.

I know I didn't mean that I would try to find someone to help me heal (although I've had passing moments of temptation to find someone new to help me get over him). I just meant that if you do end up in a relationship with someone of a secure attachment style, you can grow less anxious by being with them. I don't think I could stick with that kind of relationship right now. I'm a mess. So no worries, I wouldn't do that

Nobody else can do it for you. Nobody.

But here is the amazing thing. YOU can do it. All by yourself.

Try this exercise. Stand up. in the middle of the room stand up. You didn't need any help. Look at your feet, see how solid they are, how planted they are, how capable they are. That is you.

You are an amazing person, unique in all the world. There is NOBODY exactly like you. Think about it. Nobody is like you. So before anyone else can come to love and want to be with the one and only you...you have to learn to love the one and only you. Don't be afraid of you. Revel in it.

Once that happens...the only eggshells you will have to worry about is the ones in your omelet.

May I just point out that you have a beautiful outlook and way of describing things? Thank you I do need to work on this, and try to love and accept my uniqueness.

November 29, 2014

Thank you very much for your openness about yourself, you have the ability to look at yourself in an honest fashion, that is really important. I think the challenge for you is to stay this open and honest as thinking about things can become unpleasant if it comes really close: you have to avoid your avoidant tendencies. My ex had a very difficult time when she broke up. she was extremely closed, but as she told me she ‘granted’ me the truth. She also told me that she knew other people who were the same. So she concluded: ‘I am normal’. For me that meant you can whine what you want I am not willing to work on things together with you. Cognitively I can understand now, but emotionally I am still puzzled with it. Luckily the intense emotions are gone, it is just an ache permanently living in my body. Being somewhat anxious doesn’t help eiher.

I've read that this kind of intensity is a relationship red flag.

Yes. And even though I tried to take things slow, at a certain point she had me convinced like no one before. When she broke up she told me that nothing had changed, except the situation she had to deal with. Searching on the net I found these words that helped me a lot

Many people have asked, […] why didn’t you leave as soon as her avoidant behaviour appeared?’

It’s not quite that simple. At the start of the relationship, they’ll build your confidence level up to a height that you’ve never experienced before in your life. After that, you’re hooked, committed, invested, etc. As soon as they know that you’re hooked, many months down the road, that’s when they let their guard down; when it’s too late.

When the avoidant behaviour appears, your first instinct is to do what any sane person would do: work on the relationship’s problems, and tend to your partner and their issues.

It takes many months to draw the conclusion that they are well-and-truly nuts. The syrupy sweet personality that you witnessed in the beginning is simply a lure.

Thanks for this excerpt. SO TRUE. I can pull away and shut someone out, but internally, I'm wanting nothing more than to be with them. I need reassurance in those moments, but refuse to ask for it, so I just shut them out instead. Then I panic that I might actually lose them, so I turn right around and try to cling to them.

Your sentence hurts to read as parts of it happened to me. I wanted to be there for her, but she didn’t let me. I actually have found an earlier conversation where she already said that she did not know If she wanted me to see her vulnerable. It made going silent on her very hard for me, especially because in the end she made ME do it. She kept contacting me once a month asking if I was enjoying life and was annoyed if I said something about us. In the end I wrote her a letter. I still wonder how she is doing. As for the citation, if you google for it you can find a pdf of the book.

Neither of my parents drank at all, and there was no abuse, but my childhood was extremely chaotic and downright miserable. I'll read this article, thanks!!!

Well it does not have to be that obvious. What is important is that unconsciously we often search for some kind of disturbed dynamic that we are used to. Your attachment style (next to disorganized attachment) is the only one that is frequently connected with abuse in research, so I had to mention it.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Itspointless

November 29, 2014

Thank you very much for your openness about yourself, you have the ability to look at yourself in an honest fashion, that is really important. I think the challenge for you is to stay this open and honest as thinking about things can become unpleasant if it comes really close: you have to avoid your avoidant tendencies.

Thanks. I feel like if I could be this open with a guy I was dating, and just explain my fears, it would help tremendously. But he would have to care enough to listen and understand, ya know? I could never have said all this stuff to this last guy, as he doesn't like talking about emotions and relationships and such. Or who knows, maybe he would have been more receptive to it than I think, if I had ever tried to discuss things in person rather than just blurting things out over text. When I do that, I don't get to see his reactions.

My ex had a very difficult time when she broke up. she was extremely closed, but as she told me she ‘granted’ me the truth. She also told me that she knew other people who were the same. So she concluded: ‘I am normal’. For me that meant you can whine what you want I am not willing to work on things together with you. Cognitively I can understand now, but emotionally I am still puzzled with it.

Difficult in what way? What specific "truth" did she grant you? Not being willing to work on things together with you is the key, and is so very unfortunate. I can tell that you're an understanding guy, receptive to working through difficulties. It's a shame that she wasn't willing or capable.

Luckily the intense emotions are gone, it is just an ache permanently living in my body. Being somewhat anxious doesn’t help eiher.

Hugs. I know this ache well. It's almost as bad as the sharp pain, because it just sits there inside you and you don't know if it'll ever go away. Sometimes I think it'll take finding love with someone else in order to fully get over it. Not just dating, or settling for someone, because then you'll just compare to your ex and it will all feel worse. But finding an actual relationship and connection. It can't be rushed or pulled out of a hat, unfortunately. But maybe in time, someone will come along.

Yes. And even though I tried to take things slow, at a certain point she had me convinced like no one before. When she broke up she told me that nothing had changed, except the situation she had to deal with. Searching on the net I found these words that helped me a lot:

Many people have asked, […] why didn’t you leave as soon as her avoidant behaviour appeared?’

It’s not quite that simple. At the start of the relationship, they’ll build your confidence level up to a height that you’ve never experienced before in your life. After that, you’re hooked, committed, invested, etc. As soon as they know that you’re hooked, many months down the road, that’s when they let their guard down; when it’s too late.

When the avoidant behaviour appears, your first instinct is to do what any sane person would do: work on the relationship’s problems, and tend to your partner and their issues.

It takes many months to draw the conclusion that they are well-and-truly nuts. The syrupy sweet personality that you witnessed in the beginning is simply a lure.

YES. Omg, yes. We don't go into these things falling for someone who is cold and aloof and shut down. These people come on so strong, making you feel like you're their whole world. You can't believe your luck to have found someone this open and loving and into you. Then when they start pulling back, or showing little glimpses of avoidant behavior, it is down-right confusing. You know that YOU haven't changed or done anything to precipitate their change, oftentimes - so you don't know what is happening. I obviously tore everything to shreds when I ended things that first time, but before that, he showed moments of cold aloofness at random times, and I didn't understand. It was very subtle, something like the tone of his texts changing from one day to the next.

Your sentence hurts to read as parts of it happened to me. I wanted to be there for her, but she didn’t let me. I actually have found an earlier conversation where she already said that she did not know If she wanted me to see her vulnerable. It made going silent on her very hard for me, especially because in the end she made ME do it.

This made me think of something I said to him one time, so I went back and searched our convos for it. This was on a day where he was being a bit standoffish, and I didn't understand why he was being that way. I told him in text that I was thinking about moving on from him, because I didn't understand why he was being so cold and distant. His answer was that he just doesn't like talking too much. A few hours later, he said let's talk about it, to come over because he can talk about things better in person than typing it. And I said "Sometimes it's more comfortable than feeling vulnerable in person" (I was talking about texting being easier for me). I just thought of that when you say that your ex didn't want you to see her vulnerable. For what it's worth, I can understand that feeling, completely.

She kept contacting me once a month asking if I was enjoying life and was annoyed if I said something about us.

That's just sheer torture, hearing from her once a month but being unable to talk to her about anything real. On the one hand, I'm sure you didn't want her completely out of your life, but on the other hand, it's almost more painful to accept the random crumbs they throw your way.

In the end I wrote her a letter. I still wonder how she is doing.

Did she ever reply? Even if she didn't, I'm sure she listened. When my guy started talking to me again, he brought up a few things I'd said in all those messages I'd been sending. I wondered sometimes if he even fully read them, but it appears that he did. Do you think you'll ever try to reach out to her again?

Well it does not have to be that obvious. What is important is that unconsciously we often search for some kind of disturbed dynamic that we are used to. Your attachment style (next to disorganized attachment) is the only one that is frequently connected with abuse in research, so I had to mention it.

I'm not surprised you mentioned it. Back when Loveline and Dr. Drew became popular, he used to tell every caller that they must have had some abuse in their past. And all these callers were having relationship troubles similar to what I was having. This is embarrassing now, but I became convinced for a while that I must have repressed some childhood abuse. I couldn't understand why I was having such problems. I would go on to have several abusive relationships over the years (and again, women who end up in these have often had childhood abuse). But no, nothing like that in my past. Just the chaos.

*********************************

I found this somewhere about avoidants, and wanted to share it with you as well.

People with a dismissive avoidant attachment tend to lead more inward lives, both denying the importance of loved ones and detaching easily from them. They are often psychologically defended and have the ability to shut down emotionally. Even in heated or emotional situations, they are able to turn off their feelings and not react. For example, if their partner is distressed and threatens to leave them, they would respond by saying, “I don’t care.”

From what I've read, they are truly able to actually quit caring, you think? Or do you think that they know they care, but push it so far down that they are simply unwilling to acknowledge it?

It's all just mind-boggling.

November 29, 2014

All this energy, all this soul-searching, all this angst, all this analysis and for what ?

He is probably just pouring himself a cold beer at the moment, not a care in the world.

November 29, 2014

All this energy, all this soul-searching, all this angst, all this analysis and for what ?

He is probably just pouring himself a cold beer at the moment, not a care in the world.

Because more often then not, whatever it is the OP is feeling, will manifest later at some point. It's better she gets this out in the open with herself, versus internalizing it.

That doesn't mean she should be trying to get back together with this individual, just that she is trying to work through it, with and for herself.

November 29, 2014

Because more often then not, whatever it is the OP is feeling, will manifest later at some point. It's better she gets this out in the open with herself, versus internalizing it.

That doesn't mean she should be trying to get back together with this individual, just that she is trying to work through it, with and for herself.

Exactly. Thank you for getting it. Maybe it seems pointless to others, but I've experienced months of pain over this guy, and this thread is the first thing that's actually helped me deal with it in any constructive way. We don't know WHAT he's feeling or thinking, Elaine. Maybe he is completely over it and just doesn't give a crap anymore. This is very likely the case. But I'm still dealing with it, and just doing the best I can. I'm not trying to get him back. I'm not talk to him or reaching out. I said Happy Thanksgiving, he said it back, I left it at that.

If I could just shut off all emotions and cease to care, then I would. But I obviously can't, or I wouldn't be here talking about it.

November 29, 2014

Hi, AlwaysPuzzled, thank you for this exchange. It is hard to say if he would have listened if you said it to him directly. Face to face talking is actually more demanding as people expect the other to react in certain ways. Actually people who prefer texting over more direct ways over communication are also often mentioned as exhibiting a red flag and a sign of being avoidant.

Difficult in what way? What specific "truth" did she grant you?

To the outside world she was a happy and very strong personality but very closed when it came to details about her private life. She was a sensitive soul, but she was hard for herself. It was the one things that had me worried. It took her immense effort in the end telling me what actually was wrong medically. There were also problems that her parents had to deal with. With both things she felt powerless. I understood that. For me illness is also an old demon, I have lost my mother to illness when I was a teenager. Also thank you for your insights about vulnerability!

Not being willing to work on things together with you is the key, and is so very unfortunate. I can tell that you're an understanding guy, receptive to working through difficulties. It's a shame that she wasn't willing or capable.

Thank you I see that she really wasn’t capable. It made it hard for me to be mad at her.

Hugs. I know this ache well. It's almost as bad as the sharp pain, because it just sits there inside you and you don't know if it'll ever go away. Sometimes I think it'll take finding love with someone else in order to fully get over it. Not just dating, or settling for someone, because then you'll just compare to your ex and it will all feel worse. But finding an actual relationship and connection. It can't be rushed or pulled out of a hat, unfortunately. But maybe in time, someone will come along.

I think you are right about love. Luckily I know life gets better, I dealt with pain before. But I seem to be great in recreating situations where I get abandoned in some sort of way. Therefore I agree with what Divasu said. Sometimes our mind is great in dissociating which works for the time it really was needed, but it leaves us with a lot of hidden crap to work through. I have been working on myself for years now, work in progress I guess.

That's just sheer torture, hearing from her once a month but being unable to talk to her about anything real. On the one hand, I'm sure you didn't want her completely out of your life, but on the other hand, it's almost more painful to accept the random crumbs they throw your way. […]Did she ever reply? Even if she didn't, I'm sure she listened. When my guy started talking to me again, he brought up a few things I'd said in all those messages I'd been sending. I wondered sometimes if he even fully read them, but it appears that he did. Do you think you'll ever try to reach out to her again?

True, she had made some vague promises and I sincerely hoped for a couple of months. Although I always had the annoying thought, what if this happens again when she is stressed again. She replied the next day that she understood, that it would be her last message to me and that she wished me the best. Looking at pictures or texts of her is something I have been avoiding for eight months now. Perhaps in the future I will as I still can, but for now it is something I really have to avoid.

I'm not surprised you mentioned it. Back when Loveline and Dr. Drew became popular, he used to tell every caller that they must have had some abuse in their past.

Well I have to say that abuse can also be really implicit and it can even emerge out of pattern that are meant well. The most important thing is how it affected your wellbeing. With attachment it is said that those patterns are set in our brain in our first two years.

From what I've read, they are truly able to actually quit caring, you think? Or do you think that they know they care, but push it so far down that they are simply unwilling to acknowledge it?

Yeah, those sentences are quoted often on websites as they are very clear in describing. All the styles are all in spectrum so I think it differs per person and per situation. In addition to that I think this will answer your question: Avoidant: Emotions Repressed Beneath Conscious Level | Jeb Kinnison

November 30, 2014

Thanks for your post, itspointless, and for sharing your own difficulties. I'm on my phone right now so will wait til I'm back on my laptop in a bit to quote and respond.

Thank you for the link. Reading it brought to mind something else about him that offers further "proof" that he may be a dismissive. His ex told me that back when he was married, his best friend would go over to the apartment and ask where his wife was, and he would say she was visiting her family out of state. The next time he went over, he would notice that furniture was missing. It turned out that they were actually already separated and heading for divorce. His ex-wife had moved back home to her family, and was slowly moving her stuff out. My guy (he's obviously not mine, but don't know what else to call him) just never told his BEST FRIEND what was going on. It's like he was dismissing the reality of the situation, and didnt feel it was important to mention. Sure, maybe he was embarrassed, or thought she'd come back or something. But I think the fact that he was so detached from his best friend that he didn't tell him what was going on means something.

I'm finally starting to have tiny moments when I think of things other than him, so I guess this means that I'm finally accepting it and mentally moving on a bit. I still miss him so much though. It hurts that we were so close at one point, and now we aren't a part of each other's lives at all in any way. I almost wish I could text him and just say hey, I know this won't be anything beyond the moment, but let's hang out and just enjoy it. I can't do that though, because I would want more. And he would know I want more, and it just wouldn't work. I just miss being in his presence. We had more fun together than I've ever had with anyone else, EVER.

I really really wish I hadn't called it off that first time and had just allowed it to play out. Things were going really well. Yes, there were red flags, but if I had stuck it through, I wouldn't be left with all these questions and doubts. I could have experienced first-hand what would have happened, and there would be no need for all this speculation. I could kick myself for doing that. Things might have even gotten better and closer with him. Now I will truly never know, and that's the hardest part. When I broke up with that guy I lived with, the one I mentioned upthread, I dealt with the ending VERY well. I loved him truly, and I was sad, but I moved on with relative ease. I guess the difference between that and this is that with that guy, we gave it a good shot and I was able to see that it wasn't good. With this guy, I didn't give it a shot - I called it off when things were amazing. I tried to fix it, tried so very hard, but it was too late. That's a good reason for all this analysis - to make sure that I never put myself through this same kind of hell, ever again.

Edited November 30, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

November 30, 2014

You know I took the tests on the links in this thread, it shows me as a "dismissive", though I think I was more fearful dismissive years ago. So, if I can be of any help, I was similar to you at one point.

We need to reach the "secure" attachment style, if that's even possible. Keep working through it, you're doing a great job.

November 30, 2014

You know I took the tests on the links in this thread, it shows me as a "dismissive", though I think I was more fearful dismissive years ago. So, if I can be of any help, I was similar to you at one point.

We need to reach the "secure" attachment style, if that's even possible. Keep working through it, you're doing a great job.

Thanks Divasu! Ya know, maybe you can help. My mind is still turning things over and wondering if there's any way to reconnect with him enough to give it an honest try this time (on my part - as in, try not to let my anxieties overcome me enough to sabotage the whole thing). Most here think he's just not interested, and that very well may be the case right now. (But he WAS interested, I fully believe). He has a definite pattern of going back to the same women over and over again. He came back to me after two months of me badgering him with messages. So anything is possible.

SOOO... Can you think of any way to reach out to him that wouldn't be filled with pressure? If you were him, what could I do to make you feel "safe" enough to hang out? My problem is, though, that while I'm willing to lay off the "what are we" pressure, I don't want to be a doormat. I don't want to reach out to him and get cold replies half the time. It would be better if HE reached out, but he won't. IF there is any interest left for him, he still won't reach out. He's very stubborn and self-controlled. He doesn't hate me, as he's made a polite effort not to ignore me at all since we started talking again, and even after I said "goodbye" but still said hey or whatever, he politely replied.

But I can imagine that with the pressure I put on him, he'd be extremely wary of opening up. When I wrote the goodbye messages, I told him how much he hurts people, and that alcoholism is no excuse, and that he has a pattern of doing this with everyone and then dumps them like trash. I was pretty harsh. Yet he still talked to me and was friendly after all that I said, go figure. The pressure though, of knowing I want more, would easily scare someone like him away, regardless of interest level.

I'm just kind of thinking out loud. Not saying I would risk reaching out to him, but maybe after a bit more time has passed. I know he loves my company, and I know he's attracted, and I know we have great times and great talks when together. If I could chill on the expectations and pressure, it might could be something good, IF he still wanted that. (Please no one think I'm pathetic here - we don't know what he's thinking or feeling - my actions alone could make him unwilling to initiate, even if he was interested). I dunno, any ideas?

ETA:

I don't really know how exactly to articulate what I want. I'm not looking for something super-serious. I'm not concerned with titles just for the sake of a title (bf/gf). I don't need to hear that it will last forever. I'm not looking for marriage at any point in the foreseeable future. What I do want is consistency, reassurance that he cares, communication, and companionship. What we were doing the first time was GREAT. I didn't need more than that - my anxities just told me I needed reassurance, and I didn't know how to ask for it, so I just blew up at him and coldly shut him out. I would just love to go back to how things were back then. They almost were like that the second time - in person they were. And he talked into the near future, about doing stuff together. Heck, he asked me over and over to move out of state with him. If he wasn't that into me, why would he want my permanent company? My problem was that he wasn't texting me first. I got SO hung up on that. That is the sole reason I called it off again (along with a few short text replies here and there) (well, and my anxieties about what would happen when his parents returned - I didn't even wait around long enough to find out what would happen, I just bailed). He is not perfect, obviously. But regardless of him, I personally sabotaged this whole entire thing, so many many times. That's why I kept messaging him for two months. I knew I bailed too early, and I tried to correct it. If he had ended it, I would never have done that.

ETA #2:

I really don't think he's seeing someone, based on his online times. I happened to see him on Facebook last night and tonight. When he's with someone, he doesn't get on. If he was seeing someone, he'd be with them on weekend nights. Ya never know, I guess, but I'm pretty sure, based on that.

Edited November 30, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

November 30, 2014

Always, please stop looking for ways to get back with this guy. He will do nothing but drag you down. You have a huge laundry list of issues.

But instead of working on why you are so afraid of real life you are content to hide at your parents. I hate to tell you something but,,,they are probably going to die before you. How will you survive then?

Don't you think you should maybe spend a bit more time on fixing you, learning to be independent, learning to be a functional adult, and less time trying to become a shrink so you can get someone back in your life with just as many problems as you have.

This guy is not good for you. He gave you a momentary high. The first time I changed a tire on the freeway I got the same high. Called everyone I knew to brag about how amazing I am. I felt powerful.

Don't you want to feel powerful? Don't you want that I am amazing feeling? That is what you should be working on. YOU.

Let this boat anchor go. Work on you. Not you and him.

I actually think that maybe you are so determined to get this guy back because then it is just another reason/excuse why your life isn't great. You intentionally sabotage yourself. Stop it.

How can you soar if you tie yourself off to any boulder you find? Don't be afraid...it is truly the most amazing feeling in the world. And it is all yours.

November 30, 2014

Sorry for the delay in reply, I just got back on my laptop. It's hard to separate the quotes on my phone.

Hi, AlwaysPuzzled, thank you for this exchange. It is hard to say if he would have listened if you said it to him directly. Face to face talking is actually more demanding as people expect the other to react in certain ways. Actually people who prefer texting over more direct ways over communication are also often mentioned as exhibiting a red flag and a sign of being avoidant.

Texting is my own downfall. I normally hate talking on the phone, so I carry out convos with friends pretty much exclusively via text. With him, he did say one time that he talks in person better than typing. I always text because 1) I feel like I can express myself better through writing, 2) I have more courage to say whatever I want to say, and 3) I feel a whole lot less vulnerable. I will remember this lesson for the future, and not say heavy things over text unless absolutely necessary. The few times I tried to talk to him in person about things, I waited until we were both drunk as we could be before I brought it up. Then I kind of hoped he'd forget I said anything come morning. Definitely something I need to work on!!! (my communication skills!)

To the outside world she was a happy and very strong personality but very closed when it came to details about her private life. She was a sensitive soul, but she was hard for herself. It was the one things that had me worried. It took her immense effort in the end telling me what actually was wrong medically. There were also problems that her parents had to deal with. With both things she felt powerless. I understood that. For me illness is also an old demon, I have lost my mother to illness when I was a teenager. Also thank you for your insights about vulnerability!

Thank you I see that she really wasn’t capable. It made it hard for me to be mad at her.

Honestly, you sound like the perfect person for her. You have the patience and understanding that she needs in order to slowly open up. I'm really sorry it didn't work out with her, and my heart goes out to you. I guess we can't make someone stick around and work it through with us. I think I've read that dismissives can be "normal" with others, but shut down with those with whom they are the closest? I'm also very sorry about the loss of your mother. I can't imagine the pain. <3 I hope you realize that your ex lost out here more than you did. I hope you find someone worthy of your kindness and understanding.

I think you are right about love. Luckily I know life gets better, I dealt with pain before. But I seem to be great in recreating situations where I get abandoned in some sort of way. Therefore I agree with what Divasu said. Sometimes our mind is great in dissociating which works for the time it really was needed, but it leaves us with a lot of hidden crap to work through. I have been working on myself for years now, work in progress I guess.

Exactly. If nothing else comes from the pain, at least we can attempt to learn and grow from it in the hopes that we won't repeat the same scenario in the future. We still may, but maybe it will just take some trial and error to finally get to a better point with relationships. Abandonment is a HUGE issue for me, too. In fact, I'd say it's THE issue. And what we fear, we create. Over the years, I've learned that in order not to be abandoned, I just have to get them before they get me. That's why I end things with everyone. It's not a good method, and doesn't lessen the pain! But it's a coping mechanism that I've learned, and it's hard to quit doing it. I do it with EVERYONE.

True, she had made some vague promises and I sincerely hoped for a couple of months. Although I always had the annoying thought, what if this happens again when she is stressed again. She replied the next day that she understood, that it would be her last message to me and that she wished me the best.

Those hopes are what makes it hard to heal and move on. You really don't want to move on if you don't have to - if there's any chance at all. But waiting around indefinitely for someone is just too painful, and it sounds like you did the right thing for yourself by cutting it off. It sounds, from your second sentence, like the trust was broken for you, as well. You always would have had the fear in the back of your mind that it would happen again. Once trust is broken, you put your own guard up, and then things get all kinds of messy when both people have walls of self-protection up.

Looking at pictures or texts of her is something I have been avoiding for eight months now. Perhaps in the future I will as I still can, but for now it is something I really have to avoid.

Same here. I don't think I'll be deleting my few pics and videos of him any time soon. I don't look at them at all. They remain in my camera roll, and they'll stay there until I seriously don't care anymore, but for now... I can't even look at them. Picturing him in my mind is hard enough.

How long did you date her? Forgive me if you already said....

November 30, 2014

You go on and on about the progress you've made, and I'd really like to believe you, but two threads and twelve pages later you're still asking the exact same questions (isn't it possible he might still like me and just doesn't show it? Will you read my six-page analysis of his history, behavior and motivations? How can I get him back?)

Most here think he's just not interested, and that very well may be the case right now. (But he WAS interested, I fully believe). He has a definite pattern of going back to the same women over and over again. He came back to me after two months of me badgering him with messages.

There are so many problematic things here. It's not that he's not interested right now, he's just not interested. Whether he was or wasn't doesn't change the fact that he isn't right now. You also need to stop talking about him like a boyfriend or a lover. He was very clear that he thought of you as a friend and nothing more, and now you're somewhat less than that. Why should you care so much when he cares so little? Why would you invest so much for so little in return? You deserve someone who's at least one-tenth as committed, and he isn't.

So anything is possible...we don't know what he's thinking or feeling

You keep saying this (we don't know what he's thinking! Never say never!) and it's just not correct. Yes, anything is possible, but that doesn't mean we spend our lives preparing for extremely unlikely things. If someone ignores you, treats you poorly, never initiates, and fails to acknowledge you exist when you're not making contact, you should not assume he's interested just because there's some convoluted, complicated scenario in which he might. You need to live your life based on the evidence in front of you right now.

SOOO... Can you think of any way to reach out to him that wouldn't be filled with pressure? If you were him, what could I do to make you feel "safe" enough to hang out? My problem is, though, that while I'm willing to lay off the "what are we" pressure, I don't want to be a doormat. I don't want to reach out to him and get cold replies half the time. It would be better if HE reached out, but he won't.

Here you are again. "I want to be with him, but he doesn't want to talk to me. How do I make him want to talk to me?" You cannot do this. If he won't reach out to you, what makes you think he wants to spend time with you? He obviously doesn't want it enough to, you know, actually ask for it, so why are you humiliating yourself like this by begging for his attention? It took him nearly twenty-four hours to respond to a simple greeting---wasn't that enough?

He doesn't hate me, as he's made a polite effort not to ignore me at all since we started talking again...he politely replied...yet he still talked to me...

Let me be clear. I do not think you are a pathetic person. I think you're pretty smart and probably pretty, vivacious and fun to be around. But this is pathetic behavior. You are insisting he must have some feelings because he doesn't completely ignore you. He is giving you the bare minimum of basic social courtesy and you're using it as proof of affection. This is pathetic because it's so, so little and you've turned it into so much.

(Please no one think I'm pathetic here...my actions alone could make him unwilling to initiate, even if he was interested).

You have different expectations of a relationship. Rather than accept that and move on, you've decided you're to blame for it. You are not to blame for wanting something different and being honest about it. Trying to apologize for that and make it your fault is also pathetic behavior.

I don't really know how exactly to articulate what I want. I'm not looking for something super-serious. I'm not concerned with titles just for the sake of a title (bf/gf). I don't need to hear that it will last forever. I'm not looking for marriage at any point in the foreseeable future.

This is absolutely false. If you wanted these things you could have them tomorrow; you just can't have them with him. Admit it: if this guy told you he loved you and wanted to make you his one and only, you would be ecstatic. That is what you want. But he won't give you that, so now you have to lower your standards to pretend you want the barest minimum he might possibly be willing to give. All the self-help books in the world won't get you anywhere if you keep lying to yourself.

ETA #2:
I really don't think he's seeing someone, based on his online times. I happened to see him on Facebook last night and tonight. When he's with someone, he doesn't get on. If he was seeing someone, he'd be with them on weekend nights. Ya never know, I guess, but I'm pretty sure, based on that.

It is not healthy to be watching his Facebook logins and making extrapolations about his personal life. You need to block him immediately. I don't care if you don't think you're ready; if you don't, you're going to be here twelve pages from now crying on New Years' Day about how he didn't respond to your text and how much it hurt when you thought about the girl he kissed at midnight. Start making good choices for yourself today. Edited November 30, 2014 by chimpanA-2-chimpanZ

November 30, 2014

Always, please stop looking for ways to get back with this guy. He will do nothing but drag you down. You have a huge laundry list of issues.

Practically, I agree. But I really really liked and cared for him, ya know? We had SO much fun together. We "got" each other. We had similar issues and difficulties and outlooks on life. I'm still stuck on how he was in the beginning, when I was SO happy, and feeling confident, and having fun, and feeling hopeful. I know you aren't supposed to rely on someone for things like that. I know. I was so much better off then than I am now, though. I was better off before I even met him, and then a little more better off when he and I were together the first time, and ever since then it's just been awful. If you find someone who brings joy to your life, it's hard to let go.

But instead of working on why you are so afraid of real life you are content to hide at your parents. I hate to tell you something but,,,they are probably going to die before you. How will you survive then?

I know. My biggest fear!!! Instead of confronting the fear, I just numb myself to it, and live day by day. I really don't know where to start. I guess the first step is getting a job, but that's scary for all kinds of reasons. I've worked on and off since I was a teenager, but getting a *real* full-time job is beyond overwhelming. It could be that if I were more independent, this guy would have been more inclined to stick with me despite the rest of everything. I hate to think of it that way, because it's not something I can fix any time soon. It'll take a long time to reach that point. When we met, he wasn't working much either, and he was just chilling at his parents house. So we were very similar in that regard. Then he started working more and staying home less once they got back, because he doesn't like being around them (they get along great, his parents are good people, the respect is there - but he doesn't feel good about living there, and doesn't want them to know how much he drinks).

Don't you think you should maybe spend a bit more time on fixing you, learning to be independent, learning to be a functional adult, and less time trying to become a shrink so you can get someone back in your life with just as many problems as you have.

I might subconsciously be hanging onto this so that I don't have to move forward and confront reality. I can admit that. Focusing on him makes it easier to not focus on myself.

This guy is not good for you. He gave you a momentary high.

Yep. A HUGE high. Just like a drug, I guess. They say that once you try heroin just once, you're hooked. I got hooked on him in a big way, and would love nothing more than to have that high back. But it really was more than that. I really really grew to care about him. While we weren't speaking for those two months, I found out he'd gotten a dui (long story - he wasn't driving, and the charges were dropped)... I actually cried for him, and worried about him. I truly did care. I thought we connected, and that we had something real. So it was more than the high, but the high was a big part of it.

The first time I changed a tire on the freeway I got the same high. Called everyone I knew to brag about how amazing I am. I felt powerful.

Don't you want to feel powerful? Don't you want that I am amazing feeling? That is what you should be working on. YOU.

I get you. I guess there are other ways to get the same feeling of power, independent of any other person. Yes, I would like to feel that.

Let this boat anchor go. Work on you. Not you and him.

I actually think that maybe you are so determined to get this guy back because then it is just another reason/excuse why your life isn't great. You intentionally sabotage yourself. Stop it.

I guess I feel like if we were together, and we were both happy (like we were in the beginning), it would be a great form of support and encouragement to work on my other issues. It's easier to go through life in a partnership than it is on your own. I hesitate to even say that, because I know you have to be okay on your own. And that type of partnership is not something that could have been formed during the short time we were together. But it was fun and it made me happy, and I felt confident, and I felt good. And when you feel good and confident, it makes it easier to confront bad/scary things in life. Does that make sense? I feel like I keep contradicting myself and talking in circles.

I get exactly what you're saying. I do. But I still miss him and wish we could try again. I accept that we probably can't, and I'm not going to go out of my way to try to make it happen. I won't put my dignity on the line, and I don't want to overstep any of his boundaries. I do plan to work on myself, with him or without him. But I really hate losing someone I connected with and felt comfortable and happy with, just because I wasn't ready for it, ya know?

How can you soar if you tie yourself off to any boulder you find? Don't be afraid...it is truly the most amazing feeling in the world. And it is all yours.

Thank you again for your kind words I don't want y'all to feel like you have to give me personal encouragement and therapy, but I appreciate the care and input very much!

November 30, 2014

You go on and on about the progress you've made, and I'd really like to believe you, but two threads and twelve pages later you're still asking the exact same questions (isn't it possible he might still like me and just doesn't show it? Will you read my six-page analysis of his history, behavior and motivations? How can I get him back?)

OKAY. You brought me back to reality. I vacillate in perspective. Sometimes I really and truly see it your way, and sometimes I really and truly think there might be some way to salvage this.

There are so many problematic things here. It's not that he's not interested right now, he's just not interested. Whether he was or wasn't doesn't change the fact that he isn't right now.

You're right. All that matters is now. I can't seem to get past the beginning, when everything was awesome.

You also need to stop talking about him like a boyfriend or a lover.

I didn't think I was....

He was very clear that he thought of you as a friend and nothing more, and now you're somewhat less than that.

Honestly, no he wasn't very clear. He said the words a couple of times ("just friends"), but his ACTIONS suggested otherwise (the first time). He certainly didn't ACT like a friend in any way, shape, or form. He acted like a boyfriend, in just about every way - physically and emotionally. Can you really say that there aren't tons of guys out there who wouldn't balk at the boyfriend title 3 or 6 weeks in, no matter how much they liked someone? Guys are notorious for hating that kind of talk early on. I brought it up too soon. I forced it, and put him on the spot with pressure, and not everyone is emotionally mature enough to say the exact right thing in response. Ideally, he should have said "I'm not ready for that, but I really like you, etc etc.." but he's obviously not good at talking about things. He did say later that night how much he liked me. So I will say again, aside from a handful of words, he never gave any indication that we were "just friends".

Why should you care so much when he cares so little? Why would you invest so much for so little in return? You deserve someone who's at least one-tenth as committed, and he isn't.

This is why I called it off the final time. I did call it off, ya know. I didn't stick around for crumbs. I guess I just keep thinking back on the sequence of events, and I know that I screwed it up that first time, and he probably acted differently the second time because of all of that. I'm investing tons of thought still, obviously, but HE doesn't know that, at least! Thank god. By all appearances to him, I have moved on.

You keep saying this (we don't know what he's thinking! Never say never!) and it's just not correct. Yes, anything is possible, but that doesn't mean we spend our lives preparing for extremely unlikely things. If someone ignores you, treats you poorly, never initiates, and fails to acknowledge you exist when you're not making contact, you should not assume he's interested just because there's some convoluted, complicated scenario in which he might. You need to live your life based on the evidence in front of you right now.

Another good reality check, thank you. It hurts to agree with what you're saying here, because I want him to care. I do think that he did care. As each day passes, I accept more and more that he no longer does. When I talk about wishing we could try again, it's because I know that people can become reinterested, reattracted, whatever. People do try again, all the time. It happens. It's not always a one-and-done deal - lots of people have second and third chances together. I've had it happen before.

Here you are again. "I want to be with him, but he doesn't want to talk to me. How do I make him want to talk to me?" You cannot do this. If he won't reach out to you, what makes you think he wants to spend time with you? He obviously doesn't want it enough to, you know, actually ask for it, so why are you humiliating yourself like this by begging for his attention? It took him nearly twenty-four hours to respond to a simple greeting---wasn't that enough?

I hate to say "Okay, but...." But I need to. WHY after I "ended" things three times, got mad, said semi-harsh things, told him I can't have him coming and going in my life, told him that he hurt me, criticized him for not living up to my expectations, and then acted like this is for the best and I've moved on and I'm totally fine with it... WHY would he reach out now, given all of that? I'm sure he would be fine with hanging out and having fun, if not for all this heavy stuff. We always had a great time and enjoyed each other's company. There was never an awkward or boring moment. He was always happy to see me. And while I initiated the texting, he always initiated the hanging out. I didn't ask if he wanted to get together. I texted to say hello, and he said it would be good to see me. I didn't force my presence upon him; he wanted me there.

So I just keep WONDERING, if I had chilled and not had so many anxieties, could it have grown into more? I think that's a legitimate question.

Let me be clear. I do not think you are a pathetic person. I think you're pretty smart and probably pretty, vivacious and fun to be around. But this is pathetic behavior. You are insisting he must have some feelings because he doesn't completely ignore you. He is giving you the bare minimum of basic social courtesy and you're using it as proof of affection. This is pathetic because it's so, so little and you've turned it into so much.

No, I don't believe it's anything other than common courtesy. I don't make it into more. I said that I didn't think it meant anything when he said Happy Thanksgiving back. I guess my point was that he could ignore me again if he was sick of me or hated me, but he has made a concerted effort not to. I don't see it as affection, just politeness, and I appreciate it because it was torture when he ignored me for those two months.

I don't know if I've said this, but a week and a half after his parents got back, he was out of town working, and I wrote this message about being upset that he once again went MIA on me, blah blah blah. It was harsh. His reply was "I'll be back tonight." Why say that if he had no interest in seeing me again? Why not just ignore my message or something. Why tell me when he'd be back in town? The time after that was when I started my short series of goodbye messages, and after the first one, he said he could talk later. But I didn't give it a chance, I just said "let's just leave it at goodbye".

You have different expectations of a relationship. Rather than accept that and move on, you've decided you're to blame for it. You are not to blame for wanting something different and being honest about it. Trying to apologize for that and make it your fault is also pathetic behavior.

Women do this all the time, though. We're told not to cling, not to ask for anything, not to pressure, just be the cool girl, let him bring up commitment, never tell him how you feel, play hard to get. And no matter what we do, it always seems to be the wrong thing, because men are SO resistant to commitment that if we don't play our cards just right, he will disappear. We always blame ourselves. Always.

Beyond that, I sabotaged the entire thing by doing what I do. So really, I do believe that it WAS my fault. I KNOW I sabotaged it. I guess there's a fine line between being pathetic, and being self-aware and willing to own up to your own part in things.

This is absolutely false. If you wanted these things you could have them tomorrow; you just can't have them with him. Admit it: if this guy told you he loved you and wanted to make you his one and only, you would be ecstatic. That is what you want. But he won't give you that, so now you have to lower your standards to pretend you want the barest minimum he might possibly be willing to give. All the self-help books in the world won't get you anywhere if you keep lying to yourself.

You're so right. I became willing to accept the smallest of crumbs just to have him in my life. BUT, I corrected myself and walked away. My problem lies in thinking back on all the things I could have done differently that would have worked towards a more desirable outcome.

Yes, I would have been ecstatic if he had wanted to make me his one and only. I wouldn't have been ready for marriage, but I would have been very happy to be his girlfriend. I still think that my expectations were too high for 6 weeks of dating, with a guy who is highly independent and resistant to commitment. Not every guy moves at the same pace.

It is not healthy to be watching his Facebook logins and making extrapolations about his personal life. You need to block him immediately. I don't care if you don't think you're ready; if you don't, you're going to be here twelve pages from now crying on New Years' Day about how he didn't respond to your text and how much it hurt when you thought about the girl he kissed at midnight. Start making good choices for yourself today.

I know, I've thought about this. I would be devastated to see evidence of him with another girl. I won't be sending a Merry Christmas or Happy New Year's message, I can assure you. When I become 100% sure in my mind that unfriending/blocking him is the right thing to do, I'll do it. I'm not ready to burn the bridge yet, and it doesn't seem necessary at this point in time. I'm having no urges to message him, which is HUGE progress, because I had to white-knuckle it before just to keep myself from saying anything. If I say anything at all to him from now on, it will be something that I've really thought about and weighed the risks vs. rewards ahead of time.

************************************

Like I said, I go back and forth between thinking there's still some small chance he cares, or that he could care again, and accepting that he's just completely over it. I don't know why I can't just stick with one line of thought. It's not just me who does this though (I hope!!!). The internet is filled with questions from people trying to get someone back, along with tons and tons of advice articles on how to go about it. Everyone has hope. And sometimes the hope pans out. I've seen it said that most exes DO come back around. I was thinking back on all the guys I've had anything to do with in the past, and I estimate that a good 2/3 of them came back around. There were two different guys in my past that I had brief flings with (flings for them - I got attached) who later came back around wanting me to move in with them for one reason or another. I had the one guy who came back around and we had a full-on relationship. I've had guys come back who I no longer wanted anything to do with. My first real love came back recently, 17 YEARS later, apologizing for how he treated me and wanting to take me out and how me how a man really should treat a woman. IT HAPPENS. All the time. And if it happens with this guy, I want to be self-aware enough not to sabotage it, and give it an honest chance.

November 30, 2014

Thanks Divasu! Ya know, maybe you can help. My mind is still turning things over and wondering if there's any way to reconnect with him enough to give it an honest try this time (on my part - as in, try not to let my anxieties overcome me enough to sabotage the whole thing). Most here think he's just not interested, and that very well may be the case right now. (But he WAS interested, I fully believe). He has a definite pattern of going back to the same women over and over again. He came back to me after two months of me badgering him with messages. So anything is possible.

SOOO... Can you think of any way to reach out to him that wouldn't be filled with pressure? If you were him, what could I do to make you feel "safe" enough to hang out? My problem is, though, that while I'm willing to lay off the "what are we" pressure, I don't want to be a doormat. I don't want to reach out to him and get cold replies half the time. It would be better if HE reached out, but he won't. IF there is any interest left for him, he still won't reach out. He's very stubborn and self-controlled. He doesn't hate me, as he's made a polite effort not to ignore me at all since we started talking again, and even after I said "goodbye" but still said hey or whatever, he politely replied.

But I can imagine that with the pressure I put on him, he'd be extremely wary of opening up. When I wrote the goodbye messages, I told him how much he hurts people, and that alcoholism is no excuse, and that he has a pattern of doing this with everyone and then dumps them like trash. I was pretty harsh. Yet he still talked to me and was friendly after all that I said, go figure. The pressure though, of knowing I want more, would easily scare someone like him away, regardless of interest level.

I'm just kind of thinking out loud. Not saying I would risk reaching out to him, but maybe after a bit more time has passed. I know he loves my company, and I know he's attracted, and I know we have great times and great talks when together. If I could chill on the expectations and pressure, it might could be something good, IF he still wanted that. (Please no one think I'm pathetic here - we don't know what he's thinking or feeling - my actions alone could make him unwilling to initiate, even if he was interested). I dunno, any ideas?

ETA:
I don't really know how exactly to articulate what I want. I'm not looking for something super-serious. I'm not concerned with titles just for the sake of a title (bf/gf). I don't need to hear that it will last forever. I'm not looking for marriage at any point in the foreseeable future. What I do want is consistency, reassurance that he cares, communication, and companionship. What we were doing the first time was GREAT. I didn't need more than that - my anxities just told me I needed reassurance, and I didn't know how to ask for it, so I just blew up at him and coldly shut him out. I would just love to go back to how things were back then. They almost were like that the second time - in person they were. And he talked into the near future, about doing stuff together. Heck, he asked me over and over to move out of state with him. If he wasn't that into me, why would he want my permanent company? My problem was that he wasn't texting me first. I got SO hung up on that. That is the sole reason I called it off again (along with a few short text replies here and there) (well, and my anxieties about what would happen when his parents returned - I didn't even wait around long enough to find out what would happen, I just bailed). He is not perfect, obviously. But regardless of him, I personally sabotaged this whole entire thing, so many many times. That's why I kept messaging him for two months. I knew I bailed too early, and I tried to correct it. If he had ended it, I would never have done that.

ETA #2:
I really don't think he's seeing someone, based on his online times. I happened to see him on Facebook last night and tonight. When he's with someone, he doesn't get on. If he was seeing someone, he'd be with them on weekend nights. Ya never know, I guess, but I'm pretty sure, based on that.

You're welcome.

Well I hope I can help with insight, but, to specifically outline things for you in terms of what I as a dismissive personality type prefer, in attempt to bring this person back into your life, I cannot really say. At the end of the day, I am different then he and may react differently.

But see, this needs to be about you, and why you're drawn to emotionally unavailable men and what is it you can do to attract men who are stable and secure.

Sadly, there are certain types that are drawn to one another romantically, but it ultimately leads to a cycle of dysfunction and destruction. This short span of time apart from him, isn't quite enough for changes to occur within you. And, whose to say same for him, an alcoholic.

And that's not to dismiss that there was some form of a connection between you, obviously there was. But you need to figure out, why after only knowing him a short time, you were so overwhelmed by him emotionally. That will take some time to process, don't you think?

As for me, I'd want to be more aware of my thoughts, feelings and behaviors by approaching things slowly. I would need to successfully communicate that to said person. So in correlation to this man you speak of, it has to come from him.

Though I also think it isn't a good idea to be actively pursuing a man, as a woman, in the way you are attempting to do. It puts you both in opposite spectrums and I'm not sure that's the way to go. Especially given the dynamic of your personalities.

I've rambled on a bit but I hope it makes sense.

November 30, 2014

For a while, I had a guy friend who was giving me the "inside view" on how guys act at times. He has since gotten a girlfriend, so he doesn't really have any time to talk anymore, but here are some interesting tidbits I picked up from him:

-- His current girlfriend is someone he had a fling with many months ago. They kind of hooked up a few times and then let it drop. Months later, he contacted her again. They started off with casual sex, and then it turned into bf/gf. He only looked her up again because he was horny and desperate (hate to be so blunt, but that was my take on it). Still, he started liking her more, they started doing more together, and before I knew it, they were both posting pics of the two of them together on Facebook. So IT CAN HAPPEN! Now, however, she has started to get clingy about texting and wanting to be with him all the time, so he's become unsure because he doesn't like feeling smothered. So they had a casual fling that didn't mean much to him (because well, it ended), they got back together and he started to like her a lot and was taking more relationshippy steps, and now that she's started to get clingy he is having doubts. If she wasn't acting clingy, he would still be cool with her.

This tells me that 1) guys can come back and feel more, 2) just because it ended the first time doesn't mean he wasn't into her, or at least couldn't become more into her again, 3) the timing might happen to be more conducive to a relationship the next time, and 4) even if a guy likes a girl, he will shut down when she expects too much too fast.

-- When things were going well with them this second time around, he said she was doing most of the initiating, and that he really liked that. One, he was busy, and two, it made him feel wanted.

-- Before they got back together, when he was totally single and on the lookout for someone, he was telling me that he would play little "games" to get women interested. He wouldn't reply for a long period of time, or say on a Friday night, so that a girl would think he was busier than he was, or that he had other things going on. He did it in purpose, to try to increase her interest.

There were other little things he'd do, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

Point being:

1) Things can change with a guy, second/third chances can happen

2) Some guys WANT the girl to do the initiating

3) Some guys consciously play little mind games to make a girl more interested

4) A guy can really like a girl, and then she starts acting clingy and it plants doubts in his head. It isn't that he wasn't into her - it's that her behavior put him in an awkward spot and made him feel rushed, and his response is to emotionally back up.

Obviously I'm applying these points to my own situation. I've asked this guy about "my guy" and he says he just can't figure him out, that he's unlike any other guy he knows. He even thought for a while that he might be gay or something (he's not - he gets too drunk to follow through, but he wants it). So he doesn't know how to help me, but his input about typical guy behavior was very interesting. I've told him in detail about the times I felt like "my guy" (seriously don't know how to refer to him here) was sitting online waiting for me to speak, or giving some other subtle hint, and he fully thought my instinct was correct. He's very blunt and would tell me if he thought otherwise. But he DOES think "my guy" was interested, that he was getting online all day that day he asked for his property back because he probably wanted to talk, etc. My friend used to know this guy - "my guy" used to work for him long long ago, and was best man at his wedding - but went a decade without talking to him. So he kinda knows him but not really.

Anyways. I feel in my gut that this guy was into me, and I keep trying to offer proof and evidence. Because if y'all believe me, then maybe you could help me figure out what I could do to correct the mistakes I've made that sabotaged the whole thing.

I know I shouldn't care. I know I should focus on myself. I know I should recognize that he himself has too many issues to want to be with him. I know he wasn't treating me right in the end. But I also know that we're so very alike in so many ways - our way of being in the world, our outlook on life, our values and opinions, what we want for ourselves (example, neither of us wants kids). We shared and connected mentally and emotionally. We were on the same level. The physical attraction was there. We had SO much fun together, every single minute that we were together. We could both be ourselves without being judged. Everything was comfortable, with no awkwardness or boredom. We're both very introverted, and self-involved. We have a few common interests, but were interested in our differences. He DID treat me with care and respect, and was genuinely interested in what I had to say. He did put in a lot of effort the first time. He did show through action that he wanted to be there. Same thing the second time, in person. But I SABOTAGED it, and didn't give it a chance to grow organically. I pressured, and just like with my guy friend and his girl, he reacted by backing up. And I want to know if it's mendable. I could still be with him (if he wanted it), work on my relationship difficulties within a relationship, and work on myself individually all at the same time. I offered the example of what my guy friend said and has gone through as evidence that things aren't always into-you vs not-into-you. It's not set in stone. Anyone agree?

Edited November 30, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

I love him but I don't know what he's thinking anymore

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