BS role or part in the affair

[HermioneG]

I'm so glad you posted this. This explains SO much about your view.

 

I am sure it does.

 

Overbenefitted spouses are the most likely to cheat. Those who are less invested in the marriage, and those who have excessive need ( not healthy, excessive and dysfunctional, sometimes rooted in personality disorders and sometimes trauma) for outside validation tend to be an issue.

 

So, please, go ahead and file this under " she failed her spouse and wasn't focused on telling him he was awesome 24 hours a day".

 

My spouse would be the first person to argue with you, and the first person to explain that he cheated because of issues that had zero to do with me. He says now, and he said then, that our marriage has never ever been the problem, and neither have I.

 

Believe me- I spent a lot of time wishing it was something I did. You can work to fix things that you played a part in breaking- but not this.

 

In the end, the healthy and accurate view is that people cheat for personal issues, not marital ones. We do not control other people. I cannot control my spouse's reaction to a parental cancer diagnosis and the death of one of our children. I had the same stresses, and I managed to cope without an affair. I managed to find internal peace and I managed to not need someone praising me from the outside for spending money on fake boobs and tattoos to medicate the bad things.

 

Yeah.

 

So if you can manage and allow it, understand that my "guy" and his situation, I tandem with the majority of situations I have encountered in my life on this subject do not involve either a bad marriage or a bad spouse.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited April 23, 2014 by HermioneG

[fellini]

In other words: people always have plenty of ways out, if you decide not to use them then it is your own fault. It is like being on a sinking ship and seeing a lifeboat and merely running right past it and allowing yourself to go down with the ship. You had a way to save yourself, but you chose not to.

 

perhaps it never ocurred to you that from the perspective of the WS the lifeboat is the AP and the marriage is the sinking ship. The BS sees it differently, naturally.

 

 

This is the very dream I had after dday when I dreamt being on a ship and as it was sinking along came AP to the rescue and off she went. Only in this dream the ship didnt sink and when we got to shore she had to face me and her daughter.

 

This is the shell of the story of Conrads Lord Jim, in which a captain and his crew shamelessly abandon their sinking ship full of passengers only to find out the passengers didnt go down with the ship, and "Lord Jim" spends the rest of his life seeking redemption. It's a story of betrayal, a story of triggers and intrusions. And a story of genuine remorse from a man who made a single mistake in his life to abandon his "vows" as a ship' mate.

Edited April 23, 2014 by fellini

[fellini]

I agree with you.

 

I also think that there is a "dangerous" divide created here in LS, a very active one indeed, that is trying to reduce the entire debate down to something that simply does not bear out in the majority of cases:

 

The BS has NOTHING to do with the affair IS not the same thing as saying

The BS has NOTHING to do with the decision to have an affair.

 

Because a BS (or a person yet to be a BS) does not consider infidelity to be an "option" to solve problems, we know from experience that this tends to allow ONE or both spouses to become lazy (or as another poster put it somewhere, "the marriage gets put on the back burner") and without even necessarily being aware of it, have it in their head that infidelity IS NOT AN OPTION. I know I lived like this with my current WS. No one who knows this woman would ever DREAM that she would do it. It was unthinkable.

 

Not even her best friend who knew about the growing attraction between my WS and their mutual friend, a single, highly valued co-worker, believed it would come to "that". Obviously we were all wrong.

 

I think it's safe to say that if any BS's thought that infidelity were an option for their spouse, they would like to move back the clock and do something differently. Even if that only means reading the telltales sooner to put a stop to it. And I imagine that a good many WS's wish the same, that their BS's could have imagined that infidelity was an option (albeit NOT an acceptable one, but an option nonetheless)) and done something about what was making them unhappy (if that was the case).

 

Now that I know that infidelity is an OPTION for my SO (this one or any future) I am better armed. Is that not a reasonable assertion to make?

 

I agree with many authors that part of my problem was my naive thinking that just because we married that meant that I didn't have to consider infidelity to be an option. Some go as far as to say THIS IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM, that BLIND FAITH makes us just that: BLIND, and more so, lazy. Because if we do not do think our spouses would ever break their vows, then we are no hurry or danger not dealing with marital crises, little or big, because we assume that the biggest danger is a call for divorce and we don't see things getting that far yet.

 

Now if anything I have said makes sense, in terms of those infidelities that emerge from marriages that have crises points, how can we blanket say the BS has NOTHING to do with the affair?

 

I go back to my premise: saying the BS does not make the decision for the A, that is owned by the WS is not the same thing as saying that the BS does not contribute to the conditions for making that decision. Almost everyone seems to agree to this.

 

Michelle Langley says this about how a WS (especially WW) end up choosing infidelity as an "option" to solve their marital issues:

 

So

again, you are not in limbo because you are unsure about whether you should stay married or get divorced. You are in limbo because you cheated on your husband and instead of taking responsibility for doing something that you believed to be wrong, you chose to change your view about cheating. You now view cheating as an option, at least under certain circumstances. In order to break out of limbo, you have to stop seeing cheating as an option under any circumstances.

 

For some of us, getting to "cheating as an option" never actually arrives. In others it does. But that is not the same thing as saying that a BS is "unaware of cheating as an option", they are certainly aware, our culture is a constant reminder of this, the problem is that a spouse living in the halo of "happily ever after" never considers cheating as an option for his/her spouse.

 

 

I do appreciate that, and I believe with everything in me that an A is completely on the head of the person who chooses it. We ALWAYS have other choices; we may just not like them.

 

 

The truth that a BS does not cause an A is valid on its own. We don't need to add all this "WS don't have legitimate pain" and "It's always the WS who made the M unhappy" stuff. That just muddies things and takes credibility AWAY from the central truth.

 

No matter who made the M unhappy or for how long....it is STILL wrong to cheat.

[fellini]

Ok, and Im a BS by the way, let's see what happens when we pick other analogies, ones I consider to be entirely relevant to the dynamics of a relationship:

 

I go to a football match. I yell out a racist slur against one of the visiting players. A security guard comes over and throws me out. Are you telling me the security guard OWNS the choice to throw me out? I don't have to accept responsibility for my role in him throwing me out? What you are saying is that people do things and they are not responsible for how those in their vicinity react (insult = death analogy). But we all know that there are countless examples when we know to keep our mouths shut because not doing so will bring pain and suffering upon us. We also know countless examples where we need to do a specific thing in order NOT to be punished for not doing it. Punished by others. Like NOT paying taxes. I cannot blame myself for being put in jail for tax evasion? If I know that my behaviour in a marriage is going to have an adverse effect on my partner, why can I not accept responsibility for my poor behaviour, and recognise that my role is in provoking the reaction, although the manner of the reaction is OUT OF MY HANDS. Why would I risk this? And If I do it, knowing the risk, why am I not taking some of the responsibility to contributing to A REACTION I am clearly CAUSING?

 

Okay, lets find a better example:

 

I stop having sex with my wife, for whatever reason. At some point she says, "hey, I have needs! If you don't come to bed with me soon, Im going to have to get it elsewhere." Now, if I don't rise to the occasion of a threat of infidelity, am I completely OFF THE HOOK if she actually does what she has threatened to do? I didn't see it coming? Of course SHE OWNS the decision to ACTUALLY DO THE DEED, but are you saying Im completely off the hook?

 

Now my point: Marriages are often just LIKE that last example. We go into a marriage KNOWING what is expected of us, and we KNOW that when we begin to stop caring and stop providing our part in a marriage, we risk something.

Most of us don't think the risk is infidelity, but hey, can we also say we had no idea that infidelity was an option for someone who is not getting their needs met?

 

Of course infidelity is the WORST OPTION available to an unhappy spouse. But the problem is that they get into an A and from all accounts here, its actually a pleasurable experience (for the most part) for them. WRONG OPTION, for the most part NEEDS MET.

 

Infidelity is wrong. In some countries and states, its a crime, in other cultures its a status symbol. But being wrong does NOT remove it as an option in the eyes of those who choose to give it a try.

 

Again.... none of you guys who defend the theory of BS's sharing the responsibility in the affair have answered my question. Do an abused person in family abuse setting share in the responsibility of the abuse he/she is receiving? Is the victim with his/her attitude "making" the aggressor abuse them? Because all the abusers have the same thinking "look what you are making me do" (shifting the blame onto the victim every time).

 

A WS is an adult person who is (or not) confronted with matrimonial issues and it is only the WS the one who decide react to those issues (assuming the issues are indeed there) by having sex with other people. BS did not force the WS into someone else sex, it was only the WS decision to take that road, there is many ways a person can react to matrimonial issues and many ways that they can be solved (one of them being divorce if the situation is unsustainable).

 

Another analogy, if someone insults you when you walk in the street and you kill him because of that insult, can you say that the victim had a part of responsibility in his dead because he insulted you? Really? Can you not choose any other way to react to that insult?

 

The same thing happen in a marriage, how you react to the issues that you face it is ultimately your own and only responsibility, don't try to blame other people for your actions, you are an adult person and you need to own your actions...

Edited April 23, 2014 by fellini

[yellowmaverick]

I agree with you.

 

I also think that there is a "dangerous" divide created here in LS, a very active one indeed, that is trying to reduce the entire debate down to something that simply does not bear out in the majority of cases:

 

The BS has NOTHING to do with the affair IS not the same thing as saying

The BS has NOTHING to do with the decision to have an affair.

 

Because a BS (or a person yet to be a BS) does not consider infidelity to be an "option" to solve problems, we know from experience that this tends to allow ONE or both spouses to become lazy (or as another poster put it somewhere, "the marriage gets put on the back burner") and without even necessarily being aware of it, have it in their head that infidelity IS NOT AN OPTION. I know I lived like this with my current WS. No one who knows this woman would ever DREAM that she would do it. It was unthinkable.

 

Not even her best friend who knew about the growing attraction between my WS and their mutual friend, a single, highly valued co-worker, believed it would come to "that". Obviously we were all wrong.

 

I think it's safe to say that if any BS's thought that infidelity were an option for their spouse, they would like to move back the clock and do something differently. Even if that only means reading the telltales sooner to put a stop to it. And I imagine that a good many WS's wish the same, that their BS's could have imagined that infidelity was an option (albeit NOT an acceptable one, but an option nonetheless)) and done something about what was making them unhappy (if that was the case).

 

Now that I know that infidelity is an OPTION for my SO (this one or any future) I am better armed. Is that not a reasonable assertion to make?

 

I agree with many authors that part of my problem was my naive thinking that just because we married that meant that I didn't have to consider infidelity to be an option. Some go as far as to say THIS IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM, that BLIND FAITH makes us just that: BLIND, and more so, lazy. Because if we do not do think our spouses would ever break their vows, then we are no hurry or danger not dealing with marital crises, little or big, because we assume that the biggest danger is a call for divorce and we don't see things getting that far yet.

 

Now if anything I have said makes sense, in terms of those infidelities that emerge from marriages that have crises points, how can we blanket say the BS has NOTHING to do with the affair?

 

I go back to my premise: saying the BS does not make the decision for the A, that is owned by the WS is not the same thing as saying that the BS does not contribute to the conditions for making that decision. Almost everyone seems to agree to this.

 

Michelle Langley says this about how a WS (especially WW) end up choosing infidelity as an "option" to solve their marital issues:

 

So

again, you are not in limbo because you are unsure about whether you should stay married or get divorced. You are in limbo because you cheated on your husband and instead of taking responsibility for doing something that you believed to be wrong, you chose to change your view about cheating. You now view cheating as an option, at least under certain circumstances. In order to break out of limbo, you have to stop seeing cheating as an option under any circumstances.

 

For some of us, getting to "cheating as an option" never actually arrives. In others it does. But that is not the same thing as saying that a BS is "unaware of cheating as an option", they are certainly aware, our culture is a constant reminder of this, the problem is that a spouse living in the halo of "happily ever after" never considers cheating as an option for his/her spouse.

 

No, not almost every BS agrees that she or he contributed to the conditions for their spouse's choice to have an affair.

 

You have falsely projected your own experience onto every other BS. Maybe YOU

were lazy in your marriage, but I was not lazy in mine. I was not perfect, but I worked my butt off in my marriage.

 

Under your theory, I guess I could have prevented the "conditions" for the affair by keeping his penis in a vice grip and keeping him under lock and key. Crazily, I chose to believe that my spouse was mature and honorable.

 

The "conditions" for his affair were set long before I even met him. Nothing I did or did not do contributed to his sense of entitlement or lack of character.

[fellini]

NO I have stated elsewhere that there are affairs that emerge that have nothing to do with the BS's behaviour.

 

In fact we know that at least three things can happen:

 

The marriage is suffering: someone chooses to have an affair. WS (accepts or doesn't accept responsibility for the CHOICE, but points to problems in the marriage as the source of the decision to cheat.

 

The marriage is just FINE: someone chooses to have an affair. Accepts responsibility entirely for the decision.

 

The marriage is just FINE: someone cheats and tries to blame the marriage to avoid taking responsibility.

 

It's not that I have ignored your point, or mapped my experience on to all BS's, its that I have already talked at length about those things and do not wish to repeat them again in this one post. I think that's fair, but Im sorry you didn't see those posts and thought I was blaming you for your husband's issues.

 

I don't believe my marriage was that bad at all. My WS fits in the 3rd option I have above. She tried to use old marital issues that in fact WERE resolved to explain or justify her cheating. It took us 8 months to unravel that. Finally one day I said it to her clear: your needs were not being met by me because you didn't ask for them, you were already getting them from you AP. Put to her that way, she recognised that this was in fact, true.

 

But she also told me how it really came home to her when she remembered an incident in which something happened and I didn't respond the way she thought I would: She asked me to stop behaving in a particular way (responding angrily to some small inconvenience) and all I said was: "Okay, it won't happen again". She told me, "I was disappointed with your response, I preferred you argued with me, because it made me realize you had changed, and that my affair was not going to be explainable.

 

 

 

No, not almost every BS agrees that she or he contributed to the conditions for their spouse's choice to have an affair.

 

You have falsely projected your own experience onto every other BS. Maybe YOU

were lazy in your marriage, but I was not lazy in mine. I was not perfect, but I worked my butt off in my marriage.

 

Under your theory, I guess I could have prevented the "conditions" for the affair by keeping his penis in a vice grip and keeping him under lock and key. Crazily, I chose to believe that my spouse was mature and honorable.

 

The "conditions" for his affair were set long before I even met him. Nothing I did or did not do contributed to his sense of entitlement or lack of character.

[fellini]

No, not almost every BS agrees that she or he contributed to the conditions for their spouse's choice to have an affair.

 

You have falsely projected your own experience onto every other BS. Maybe YOU

were lazy in your marriage, but I was not lazy in mine. I was not perfect, but I worked my butt off in my marriage.

 

The "conditions" for his affair were set long before I even met him. Nothing I did or did not do contributed to his sense of entitlement or lack of character.

 

I think too, if you reread my post, you will see these two very important contextual phrases:

 

Now if anything I have said makes sense,

in terms of those infidelities that emerge from marriages that have crises points

, how can we blanket say the

BS

has NOTHING to do with the affair?

 

Because if we do not do think our spouses would ever break their vows, then we are in no hurry

or danger not dealing with marital crises,

little or big, because

 

There are all kinds of affairs my post do not explain (sexual addiction, exit affairs, midlife crises affairs... to name but a few)

 

The role of the BS is ZERO if the BS does not contribute to the marital breakdown. I think that is self evident.

Most of the discussion here revolves around a marriage in which the BS does in fact contribute to the conditions upon which a WS latter blame shifts the affair.

Today, regardless of my WS's having to OWN the A, regardless of her attempt to blame-shift it onto the marriage, there are things that I can do to improve our marriage.

 

Whether that reduces the prospect that in the future she will stray (or chose straying as an option) rather than speaking with me about it, or finding other acceptable alternatives, I am banking on the affirmative.

Edited April 23, 2014 by fellini

[cocorico]

Is this the general consensus? That because our marriage wasn't perfect I have to accept responsibility for his affair.

 

My H's XBW had nothing to do with our R, just as I had nothing to do with her M.

 

It's true that, had the M been less toxic, he would not have been vulnerable to my advances. But then, each time during the M that she reneged on an undertaking (not to have kids, to participate in MC, to consult him before committing large amounts of his money to spurious purchases, etc) he had an opportunity to dump her with just cause, and he chose not to. After the first split, when she begged him to take her back, he could simply have refused.

 

She is responsible for her abusive behaviour, her empty promises, broken vows, her own betrayal as a WS and the damage she caused her kids through her toxic parenting. But our A was our business.

[fellini]

Thank you for the lesson on what is acceptable, actually I didnt need it.

If you kindly read all my posts you will see that I repeatedly say that infidelity is an UNACCEPTABLE option, but this does not ELIMINATE it as an option, obviously. Killing someone is an unacceptable option / response to insults, but just saying something is "unacceptable" doesn't mean it won't happen.

 

And who, living today, in this world, does not know that choosing infidelity is a popular choice, unacceptable as it is, for many people?

 

Your focus is only on acceptability. This discussion has been revolving around the question of what the role is of PERSON A existing in a relationship with PERSON B.

If I withhold sex from my wife (person A) and my wife reacts with what you call an acceptable option "divorce", who "owns the divorce"? She OWNS IT? That's it. She makes an "acceptable response" to a provocation, but she owns it entirely? I have no role to play in the decision to divorce?

 

I mean come ON, for EVERY ACTION THERE IS A REACTION. So how does this work for some people:

Action: bad marriage Reaction: Divorce - acceptable response THEREFORE action leads to reaction - the reaction is "justified" - it is coherant with the action?

Action: bad marriage Reaction: Infidelity - unacceptable response THEREFORE action DOES NOT RELATE to reaction? - "blame-shifting"?

 

Let's live in the real world of what we all know to be true instead of converting marriages into boolean diagrams!

 

Anyone who is prepared to say that if I do something bad, and my wife makes an appropriate response she is ALLOWED to point to my action for the reason why she made THAT response.

But if I do the same bad thing, and my wife makes an INAPPROPRIATE response she is NOT ALLOWED to point to my action for the reason why she made THAT response?

 

Since when do "reasons" have anything to do with valuing what is "acceptable behaviour"? One is a motive, the other is the action taken. Nothing more.

 

 

 

 

And that is an example of a measured reaction to your own action. If you are not meeting your spouse expectations in a marriage you can expect the other person taking measures on it, being angry at you is a normal reaction, speaking to you and giving you warnings about what your attitude is doing to the relationship are normal reactions, even filing for divorce if there is not way to solve the marriage is a normal and valid reaction... cheating is not a valid reaction (exactly like the insult- killing reaction. If someone insult you it would be normal if you ask him why or even if you get angry at him because that person insulted you but killing him is not a normal or valid reaction).

Do a guard own his responsibility on the act of throwing you out of a football match? Totally!, he owns it because it was his choice of acting vs your way of acting and he is in the right. The same guard could have chose to hit you and let you half dead close to the stadium and that would have been a wrong way of acting (like cheating is).

 

 

 

If you stop having sex with your wife you can expect your wife either to accept it (not very likely), to try to convince you that you are damaging the relationship, or to divorce you in the long way. All three reactions from your wife would be normal and acceptable, cheating is not an acceptable way to tackle the issue and it is not your responsibility... it is only hers.

Are you in the wrong on not having sex with your spouse? Yes that is your choice and your responsibility, are you responsible in any way for her choice to cheat? NOT. She is an adult and how she reacts to issues is only her only responsibility.

Edited April 23, 2014 by fellini

[DKT3]

We simply can't know the butterfly effect involving infidelity. Infidelity happens in all states of relationships from happy to content to unhappy.

 

Its the wayward who owns 100% the choice to venture outside of the marriage. Sometimes the choice can be made easier by the BS actions or lack of. Is that an excuse? Absolutely not.

 

After my wifes affair, for the first time since my teens I seriously thought and considered being with another women. Come really close the decided it wasn't something I wanted to deal with. I hardly think I would have been anywhere close to cheating had I not been cheated on.

 

Her infidelity made cheating an option that I hadn't thought about to that point. However it would have been my choice to do it.

 

Can I define that as her having played a role in it? Its hard to say. I will say this, many people will attribute staying faithful to their partner and having to do with the partner.

 

Maybe in some cases there is a valid point. Of course no one wants to own that.

 

Cheating should never be an option, but we are all human and life is always complicated and complex. Wouldn't it be nice if it was always clear cut black or white.

[fellini]

If you read me correctly you would see I have said the very same thing.

The actions we take are our choices. The reasons for doing them are not always our own.

 

I don't see so many people saying "you made me do it". No sir. I see people saying, I cheated BECAUSE I FELT or I cheated because there was no one home when I got there,

I cheated because you did not meet my needs

 

This is not the same thing as saying: "You didn't meet my needs so you left me no choice but to cheat." No sir. I cheated (my choice) you didn't meet my needs (your choice).

This is not You made me cheat because you refused to meet my needs. That's a whole other view. And I think too many people confuse one with the other.

 

Contrary to what you say, concepts arrive quite easily to my brain, accepting concepts that don't make sense to me, is a different story.

 

 

Again... there is a concept that seems not to get to your brain. The concept of adult people owning the responsibility of their actions. Life give you choices and you and only you decide which one of them you take.

If I take part of a bad marriage I can and I should take ownership for that bad marriage, if I decide to divorce then I should take ownership for that choice too (it doesn't matter how bad the marriage it is, it is MY CHOICE to divorce).

Owning your own decisions in life is something some people should learn to do, you can always explain the reasons why you may have made that choice and those reasons may seem valid for some people and not valid for other but the responsibility of your decision is ONLY yours.

Every choice implies a new choice for you and for the people who are affected by your choices. So when a BS chooses to reconcile the decision is his/her responsibility and if the WS also decides to reconcile they need to own that decision as well.

What is wrong with adults in this website who seem not to be able to own their own choices...."you made me do this", "you brought me to do that".... really? How funny....

 

By the way, choosing infidelity is always an option, regardless of anything you may do, if a person wants to proof the forbidden fruit it doesn't matter if you are the best spouse in the world...

Edited April 23, 2014 by fellini

[janedoe67]

I am sure it does.

 

Overbenefitted spouses are the most likely to cheat. Those who are less invested in the marriage, and those who have excessive need ( not healthy, excessive and dysfunctional, sometimes rooted in personality disorders and sometimes trauma) for outside validation tend to be an issue.

 

So, please, go ahead and file this under " she failed her spouse and wasn't focused on telling him he was awesome 24 hours a day".

 

My spouse would be the first person to argue with you, and the first person to explain that he cheated because of issues that had zero to do with me. He says now, and he said then, that our marriage has never ever been the problem, and neither have I.

 

Believe me- I spent a lot of time wishing it was something I did. You can work to fix things that you played a part in breaking- but not this.

 

In the end, the healthy and accurate view is that people cheat for personal issues, not marital ones. We do not control other people. I cannot control my spouse's reaction to a parental cancer diagnosis and the death of one of our children. I had the same stresses, and I managed to cope without an affair. I managed to find internal peace and I managed to not need someone praising me from the outside for spending money on fake boobs and tattoos to medicate the bad things.

 

Yeah.

 

So if you can manage and allow it, understand that my "guy" and his situation, I tandem with the majority of situations I have encountered in my life on this subject do not involve either a bad marriage or a bad spouse.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

For the record, both HE and I can tell definitively that I was NOT the overbenefitted spouse. Not by a long shot.

[fellini]

Now put that into the context of a marriage that is suffering from a A, so we can judge if those examples are explanatory or obfuscating what we already know to be going on.

 

The thing about using examples outside as analogies, is the analogies have to work. So give me an analogy of an affair. I've given you lots. I have used my own marriage to explain. Others here have done the same.

 

Because for me you skipped over the FIRST order response:

 

"I can be angry at you BECAUSE you KISSED a GIRL."

You missed that part! You are blaming your ANGER (response) to my kissing a GIRL (nothing to do with you). Your anger is a response to the stimulus. Okay, so you OWN the responsibility for later KILLING me. But who is responsible for your ANGER? Now in your case, you secretly love this girl. But if its a secret, even your anger is misplaced because I don't know what you expect of me. We are not in a relationship with an understanding, you and I. A proper analogy would be if I were a friend of yours and KNEW you loved this girl and I kissed her. Now who owns what? Now it's not so black and white is it. That's more like what happens in marriages.

 

A marriage is not a relationship based on secrets, its a relationship based on mutual trust and agreements. So if I withhold sex from my wife, she will feel REJECTED. Then she will choose what to do with her REJECTION. I do not own her affair, but I do have a role to play in her feelings of rejection.

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is the part where you consider those reasons to be valid and then you also say that the BS holds responsibility in the decision of their spouse to cheat.

Every person may have the reasons or motivations they may consider valid to do something. I can be angry at you because you kissed a girl and I am secretly in love with her and then I can go and kill you. My reason to kill you is that you kissed that girl, does it make you responsible for me killing you? NOT.

 

I can hate my boss because he every day make my day impossible but if I decide to hit him in the face, is he responsible for my response? NOT. He is responsible for being an ass but I am the only one who can take the blame for me hitting him.

 

It is as easy as it gets....

Edited April 23, 2014 by fellini

[fellini]

First of all, I am not "wrong". I have my opinions, I have worldviews that are different from yours.

 

You prefer to dissect actions down to the molecules, and from that perspective you see things in isolation.

 

I prefer to see the whole picture, and to take into consideration how people respond.

 

So Ill finish by reminding you of the burning bed case in the united states, in which an abused woman was found not guilty for killing her husband while he slept because she believed his abusing her was sufficient grounds for self defence. You on the other hand would say no, she must take responsibility for setting fire to her husband rather than walking out of the house.

 

The real world is more complicated than you suggest, in my opinion, and I am always more interested in nuanced explanations than those which try to catch all the possible perspectives in a single simple reduction of logic.

 

No, you are wrong, I have been trying to tell you this from the beginning.

 

Lets use the friend example, you are my friend and you know I love this girl, so you go and kiss her, that makes me angry, so you with your action made me angry and that opens a window of possibilities on how to act (choices). I can ask you why you had to do that, or I just can stop being your friend, I can kill you too but the last would be an horrible choice (stupid)... So while you are responsible for kissing that girl I am still responsible for how I choose to react to that. It is my choice and only my responsibility!!!!!.

If I decide to kill you, does the fact that you kissed that girl make you somehow responsible for me reaction? NO

 

If I choose to withhold sex from my wife (stupid but people do this), she would be right to point that I am responsible for the withholding of sex. I may be responsible for her feeling rejected. But I still have NO part on her taking the decision of having sex with another guy...

 

Lets put it this way, lets say a BS walks home and finds his wife and the AP in bed, he decides to take a gun and kill them at that moment. Are the WS and the AP responsible for their death? Can the BS justify to kill their WS and the AP because they made him angry? Or it is the BS who decides how he deals with the new situation?

 

Lets make it even more clear, a BS finds out his wife has cheated on him and he decides to deal with it by abusing her and hitting his wife every day since then... The WS made the BS angry so is the WS responsible for the abusive behavior of her husband? Or is the husband the one who owns the responsibility on how to deal with his wife affair?

 

I am curious about what you think about that....

[janedoe67]

The WS made the BS angry so is the WS responsible for the abusive behavior of her husband? Or is the husband the one who owns the responsibility on how to deal with his wife affair?

 

You'd be amazed how many people would say the WS is responsible for being beaten, even going so far as to say she deserves it.

Edited April 23, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fixed quote

[HermioneG]

The WS made the BS angry so is the WS responsible for the abusive behavior of her husband? Or is the husband the one who owns the responsibility on how to deal with his wife affair?

 

You'd be amazed how many people would say the WS is responsible for being beaten, even going so far as to say she deserves it.

 

That's terrible.

 

Thankfully, I do not know anyone who would say such things. Multiple wrongs never ever make a right.

Edited April 23, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fixed quote, I think!

[janedoe67]

You'd be amazed how many people would say the WS is responsible for being beaten, even going so far as to say she deserves it.

 

That's terrible.

 

Thankfully, I do not know anyone who would say such things. Multiple wrongs never ever make a right.

 

(quote above)

 

Some people are honest enough to come out and say it. The rest...it's glaringly obvious when you read between the lines. Just like a "BUT" cancels out a WS who says "My affair was completely wrong, but..."

 

It is the same thing to say "No, the WS doesn't deserve X, BUT..."

 

In fact, there is a WS/FWS on LS now whose husband is an addict, and that dynamic is in play plainly, up to and including suggesting the REASON he is an addict is because of what she did.

 

Happens all the time.

Edited April 23, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Sub]

In fact, there is a WS/FWS on LS now whose husband is an addict, and that dynamic is in play plainly, up to and including suggesting the REASON he is an addict is because of what she did.

 

You're completely misrepresenting that situation. If you'd like to discuss it, shouldn't you keep it in THAT thread?

[janedoe67]

I'm having deja vu

 

The bottom line according to this thread title is this:

 

The BS plays no part in the WS's choice to cheat. It is not a joint decision, and it is not one that any circumstance "forced" the WS to make. A WS chooses to cheat. Yes, maybe they have legitimate reason to be unhappy or lonely, depending on the situation, but they CHOOSE to cope with that by cheating.

 

If John robs a convenience store at gunpoint, there may be all sorts of things at play: lost job, medical expenses, new baby. All these are problem with which we can sympathize. However, John CHOSE to rob that store, and he can't "blame" his circumstances. HE made that choice, he will be charged, and he will go to jail. Period. He had other options, from elling things off to trying to get another job, to filing for assistance to asking churches....a whole assortment of things. He CHOSE the illegal one.

 

That truth, like I said, stands on its own. We do not have to insist that "the WS is always the one who caused the marriage problems" or "the WS is always rewriting history" or "the WS is just flawed and the BS had no issues" in order to believe the TRUTH that having an A is a choice that rests on the chooser.

 

Refined sugar in excess is unhealthy because it is fattening, it raises blood sugar, it turns more quickly to fat, it is addictive. We don't have to add things like "you'll probably get cancer" or "someone might have dropped cyanide in it" to make our case.

 

That's what it feels like hen people are either too stubborn or too afraid to acknowledge possible marital issues that are NOT the fault of the WS. They are two separate issues. One should not be seen as a "threat" to the validity of the other.

[Steadfast]

I get it, and I agree. NOTHING justifies an A. My H played no part in my cheating choice.

 

Jane, your posts and description of suffering truly did change my views about the cheater's situation. Discounting your personal choices, I did learn that you are far more qualified to advise or council wayward spouses than I am. Likewise, you know little about how those actions affect a spouse who refused to take that route, and the bottom quote illustrates this perfectly:

 

Once a WS utters the words "I cheated," nobody gives a damn what the rest of their life might have been like...

 

You have a hard time getting everyone to agree on what's worse: the cheating, or the issues that motivated the cheater to take that action. My ex was vengeful and admitted it yet I know many stepping out are not. I do know the betrayal tastes the same, regardless. Some actions produce a very predictable result. We never solve problems by adding more problems.

[WasOtherWoman]

Many many years ago, I was a BS. My husband began an affair, on a business trip. I found out. Of course, I was devastated, thought he was all kinds of an a-hole, how could he do this to ME? The thought that he could be unfaithful never occurred to me...

 

I was FLOORED, as I am sure everyone else around here was also. No kids, I divorced him and walked away. Because of course, this was the worst possible thing that could ever happen to someone, right? And, of course, he cheated on me and I was the perfect wife.

 

All these years later now, I look back on the situation very differently. Yep, he cheated.. responsibility all on him, for sure. But I can honestly say, I was a pretty crappy wife. I was way wrapped up in my career, put him last on my list very often. Prided myself on having a "modern marriage" with each of us pretty much living a separate life. How very enlightened of me, right? Looking back, clearly not a recipe for a successful marriage.

 

With time comes better clarity. In no way do I hold myself responsible for him cheating. However, I now understand that there very possibly may be consequences for my actions that I do not like. It does not make the fact that he chose to have an affair any less wrong.

 

The consequences that I would have preferred to have would have entailed a conversation where he told me plainly that he didn't like the way that we were living. I could then have made a conscious decision as to whether or not I was willing to change. Obviously, this would have been the ideal consequence for my choices.

 

That said, my takeaway from my experience is that it is incredibly naive for ANYONE who gets married in this day and age to not, at the very least, consider that infidelity may touch their marriage. AND IT CERTAINLY WON'T BE YOUR FAULT IF IT DOES. However, I do own my part in our relationship problems

 

P.S. Disclaimer: the above does apply to serial cheaters, they are a whole different animal, imho.

[HermioneG]

For the record, both HE and I can tell definitively that I was NOT the overbenefitted spouse. Not by a long shot.

 

Good thing I did not say in all cases then, isn't it?

 

Look. You seem to want to find fault with what I say, and show yourself to be an exception. I agree with you. You are an exception, and I've never said you were not.

 

I accept that you were absolutely miserable in your marriage prior to your affair. I accept that you were not the overbenefitted spouse. I accept that you tried a million different ways to make it better, and your spouse did nothing to help you. I accept that you then chose an affair.

 

If I can accept that about you, why can't you accept that for most of the other affair situations, as detailed in the literature and information based on psychology , are different than yours?

 

For the vast majority of infidelity issues- it is a personal problem acted out by a spouse with bad coping skills.

 

For you? I would argue that you also displayed bad coping skills, because you always had the chance to leave the marriage before you made your decisions. I have never dismissed your pre-affair troubles or pain. I think I have been kind to you. I am not picking on you. I've never said you were beyond redemption, not have I ever said any wayward is beyond redemption. For heaven's sake- I am a reconciled BS. Clearly I don't believe in hair shirts and pain forever for a wayward.

 

I wish you absolutely the best luck as your press forward in your life. I hope you find peace and true happiness, and I hope that with time, the issues you have with your marriage can be resolved, no matter what that outcome may be.

 

But maybe take a step back and realize that I am not your enemy. I'm far from it, actually.

[HermioneG]

Jane says:

 

Some people are honest enough to come out and say it. The rest...it's glaringly obvious when you read between the lines. Just like a "BUT" cancels out a WS who says "My affair was completely wrong, but..."

 

It is the same thing to say "No, the WS doesn't deserve X, BUT..."

 

In fact, there is a WS/FWS on LS now whose husband is an addict, and that dynamic is in play plainly, up to and including suggesting the REASON he is an addict is because of what she did.

 

Happens all the time.

 

I think your quoting mechanism is all screwed up.

 

I have never ever advocated what you are showing me quoted as saying, but I will strongly repeat what I actually stated, which was two wrongs never ever make a right.

 

Anyone who would like to argue with me about that is welcome to have at it. LOL

[Zenstudent]

It's amazing with a board like this, I wouldn't have thought that so many people, well articulated and probably good people as well, would argue that personal and individual choices are precisely that, personal.

 

I'm willing to learn, so this is what I take from these lessons, please correct me if I'm wrong:

 

• You need to be the last person to do wrong in order to be freed from responsibility - mad hatters paradise.
  
• My wife f..... up, brought some very heavy issues into our pretty good marriage. Since I must share responsibility for her choice, I can have a revenge affair, and don't bother very much because she caused it and must take responsibility for my choice of revenge.
  
• My choice, when asked to stay with my wife and try to work it out, isn't really my choice, and responsibility - it's... her responsibility or...?
  
• If I choose to divorce her in the future, instead of saying "I can't do this", I can assign the responsibility for that choice to my wife - even if she doesn't agree with me.
  
• I won't go to jail if I choose to kill OM, because I won't be responsible for his death - he brought it on himself
  
• Since the betrayal is hidden, I need to take responsibility for something that I'm not even aware of is happening.
  

I've always tried to be a good role model for my kids, teach them always to take responsibility for their choices in life. Should I add an "Unless...."?

[WasOtherWoman]

It's amazing with a board like this, I wouldn't have thought that so many people, well articulated and probably good people as well, would argue that personal and individual choices are precisely that, personal.

 

I'm willing to learn, so this is what I take from these lessons, please correct me if I'm wrong:

 

• You need to be the last person to do wrong in order to be freed from responsibility - mad hatters paradise.
  
• My wife f..... up, brought some very heavy issues into our pretty good marriage. Since I must share responsibility for her choice, I can have a revenge affair, and don't bother very much because she caused it and must take responsibility for my choice of revenge.
  
• My choice, when asked to stay with my wife and try to work it out, isn't really my choice, and responsibility - it's... her responsibility or...?
  
• If I choose to divorce her in the future, instead of saying "I can't do this", I can assign the responsibility for that choice to my wife - even if she doesn't agree with me.
  
• I won't go to jail if I choose to kill OM, because I won't be responsible for his death - he brought it on himself
  
• Since the betrayal is hidden, I need to take responsibility for something that I'm not even aware of is happening.
  

I've always tried to be a good role model for my kids, teach them always to take responsibility for their choices in life. Should I add an "Unless...."?

 

is the above REALLY what you think people are saying?