BS role or part in the affair

[waterwoman]

Blaming infidelity on previous betrayals is a non-sequitur

 

"Why are the broken pieces of my favourite vase hidden under the sofa?"

"Erm.... I did it?"

"Why?"

"Because you don't cook my favourite meal for me and it upset me"

"Why didn't you ask me to if you were unhappy about it"

"I'm your husband I shouldn't need to ask"

"Well in that case if you did it to punish me why did you hide the peices?"

"Because I didn't want you to find out"

 

Logic fail.

 

And that's before you start on the reasons why the favourite meal never gets cooked...

[sweet_pea]

I hear this a lot. The problem is, cheating crosses a line that breaks a specific vow. When does one "know" that one has broken other vows? Okay, maybe some betrayed spouses are abusive or stone cold but I don't think most are. If your husband or wife picks a fight with you or buys something expensive without consulting you, for example, does that give you an excuse to have sex with someone else? And, more importantly, why does someone else's transgression give you a license to commit your own?

 

 

This is a really good question to ask, in my opinion. It seems like that is a major justification for affairs. I guess to some, two wrongs make a right? Or one relationship/marriage wrong gives you a free pass to commit another.

 

I always wonder, if someone is not doing something or is doing something wrong, why not address it? And if you do address it and it doesn't get fixed, why not separate, divorce or come to some kind of agreement about your relationship and how you will operate it?

 

Why have an affair? What does an affair do to help a marriage? Absolutely nothing….

[janedoe67]

This is a really good question to ask, in my opinion. It seems like that is a major justification for affairs. I guess to some, two wrongs make a right? Or one relationship/marriage wrong gives you a free pass to commit another.

 

I always wonder, if someone is not doing something or is doing something wrong, why not address it? And if you do address it and it doesn't get fixed, why not separate, divorce or come to some kind of agreement about your relationship and how you will operate it?

 

Why have an affair? What does an affair do to help a marriage? Absolutely nothing….

 

You are so right. And someone else's infractions do not justify my bad choices. Just like my bad choices do not retroactively negate my husband's purposeful neglect of the marriage.

 

They are two separate issues and one should not be used to justify the other.

[Furious]

First session of mc last night for the upcoming divorce and co parenting. She asked my WH why we are divorcing, he responds because he had an affair. She then asks me if I have accepted my roll in the affair? So I said yes, as CIA to his secret agent and I busted up the operation. I had no other roll. It was his choice alone. He didn't have any conversations with me but then thought he could cheat with impunity. He did what he wanted for himself.

I then get the speech of how my marriage caused him to cheat. So I asked why I didn't cheat in the same marriage? No answer. I then asked since I must have been partly responsible for his cheating, does he get some credit for my fidelity? No answer. She told me I was hurt and angry, I said duh!! Can I have my $200.00 back? My cat could have given that assessment.

Is this the general consensus? That because our marriage wasn't perfect I have to accept responsibility for his affair. I accept I wasn't a perfect wife, but I did try. **i later found out she was a WW.

 

 

A spouse may play a role in being handed divorce papers but not a role in being cheated on.

 

Cheating is a dysfunctional option. There are many "excuses" why a someone chooses to cheat rather than attempt to fix or leave it.

 

MC with no expertise in infidelity are a dime a dozen.

 

Imagine if a couple showed up in MC due to gambling, addiction, physical abuse, and the MC asked what was your role and blame in causing your spouse to beat you, or gamble or become an addict.

 

If betrayed spouses were that all "powerful" over the actions and choices of their WS, why waste all that power on being betrayed instead of being respected and loved.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Furious

[HermioneG]

A spouse may play a role in being handed divorce papers but not a role in being cheated on.

 

Cheating is a dysfunctional option. There are many "excuses" why a someone chooses to cheat rather than attempt to fix or leave it.

 

MC with no expertise in infidelity are a dime a dozen.

 

Imagine if a couple showed up in MC due to gambling, addiction, physical abuse, and the MC asked what was your role and blame in causing your spouse to beat you, or gamble or become an addict.

 

If betrayed spouses were that all "powerful" over the actions and choices of their WS, why waste all that power on being betrayed instead of being respected and loved.

 

Quoted for truth. Why is infidelity a question of blaming the victim ? It should not be.

[yellowmaverick]

Quoted for truth. Why is infidelity a question of blaming the victim ? It should not be.

 

The BS is blamed because the two people engaged in the affair don't have the integrity or honor to.acknowledge their culpability. They lie to.themselves just as easily as they lie to others.

[HermioneG]

My point was that you don't know what my guy does or doesn't blame things on. He doesn't blame his ex for his affair. He does blame her for shutting him out of her life and their married life.

 

I, on the other hand, have never been lied to and we don't shut eachother out.

 

So, I would look for the icky factor in your own situation rather than mine. Have a good day.

 

You cannot even see what message you put out when you write the above stuff on here. He doesn't blame her, except he does. And you sure do. It's all double talk and it circles around. And around.

 

I hope someday you can truly see the big picture that you have placed here,and that you find some peace. Everyone deserves peace.

Edited April 21, 2014 by HermioneG

[goodyblue]

You cannot even see what message you put out when you write the above stuff on here. He doesn't blame her, except he does. And you sure do. It's all double talk and it circles around. And around.

 

I hope someday you can truly see the big picture that you have placed here,and that you find some peace. Everyone deserves peace.

 

I am perfectly happy and at peace. I tell my story. If you can't handle it, move along.

[Sub]

My point was that you don't know what my guy does or doesn't blame things on. He doesn't blame his ex for his affair. He does blame her for shutting him out of her life and their married life.

 

 

I, on the other hand, have never been lied to...

 

Like you said above, nobody here knows your guy, so I can't speak to his character as it specifically pertains to your relationship. Sounds like he's taken responsibility for his own actions. So kudos to him. Unfortunately, none of us are above being lied to, or above lying. I understand the desire to think he'd be different with you than with his xW, but I'm not sure how realistic an expectation that is.

[HermioneG]

I am perfectly happy and at peace. I tell my story. If you can't handle it, move along.

 

I can absolutely handle it. LOL!!

 

I just think that sometimes, outsiders can have a clearer perspective on what picture a story paints. Your postings have a pattern, and a clear one. Telling us all how happy you are all the time, coupled with the rage and blame you state against the wife makes me feel compassion for you. It comes across as doubt and being unsettled. And no one should ever live life in that manner. We all deserve better.

 

I am in no way telling you how you feel. I would never presume to do that. But I am pointing out a pattern that might be worth sitting quietly with and giving some consideration.

 

Bet wishes to you.

[fellini]

This is a really good question to ask, in my opinion. It seems like that is a major justification for affairs. I guess to some, two wrongs make a right? Or one relationship/marriage wrong gives you a free pass to commit another.

 

Why have an affair? What does an affair do to help a marriage? Absolutely nothing….

 

Speaking from experience of someone who suffered a major betrayal, then years later, an infidelity, I would have to say that none of these questions can be easily answered only talking about what is logical or reasonable.

 

When my WS and I were going through the early months of R, this is when her betrayal of our marriage from years before came back to light. It was then that I could look back and say there, that was the beginning of a major blow to our marriage. THAT is what put our marriage off course.

 

So, as always, the earlier betrayal (of ignoring her family's constant demeaning me as a person) did NOT CAUSE the later A., nor did it KILL the marriage, but to think that it had NOTHING to do with the emotional foundation upon which the infidelity occurred would be to ignore the obvious.

 

Although I did not go out and cheat because my wife betrayed me, she did go out and cheat. And I don't doubt that it was made easier EMOTIONALLY for her to do that because of the rupture that her betrayal caused me, allowing her to feel that I had somehow changed. I had, but I couldn't put then into words what her betrayal made me feel because it went on for years and we never addressed it. I began to feel less secure with her, less sure about the possibility that our marriage was as strong as it was. And I eventually forgot her role in this and saw only my inlaws as the culprits.

 

Of course she was reading this change in our connection, in our chemistry, and feeling something similar. Again, although this was, never was, an excuse to cheat, I cannot deny that it contributed to her being able to think that maybe the grass was greener on the other side, and that the available single OM she met might solve her problems.

 

The decision to cheat is hers at the moment of making it, of course.

Edited April 21, 2014 by fellini

[peaksandvalleys]

I hear this a lot. The problem is, cheating crosses a line that breaks a specific vow. When does one "know" that one has broken other vows? Okay, maybe some betrayed spouses are abusive or stone cold but I don't think most are. If your husband or wife picks a fight with you or buys something expensive without consulting you, for example, does that give you an excuse to have sex with someone else? And, more importantly, why does someone else's transgression give you a license to commit your own?

 

 

 

I wish I could like this a thousand times!

[goodyblue]

I can absolutely handle it. LOL!!

 

I just think that sometimes, outsiders can have a clearer perspective on what picture a story paints. Your postings have a pattern, and a clear one. Telling us all how happy you are all the time, coupled with the rage and blame you state against the wife makes me feel compassion for you. It comes across as doubt and being unsettled. And no one should ever live life in that manner. We all deserve better.

 

I am in no way telling you how you feel. I would never presume to do that. But I am pointing out a pattern that might be worth sitting quietly with and giving some consideration.

 

Bet wishes to you.

 

Uh... rage? Give me just the smallest of breaks. I don't feel rage. God, this whole forum is silly most of the time. If you go to the OW side, you'll see such angry, rageful posts from bs's who probably aren't filled with rage, they just come across that way. You're labeling me with something I simply do not feel.

 

Enjoy your day.

[underpants]

And, more importantly, why does someone else's transgression give you a license to commit your own?

 

 

Because it is a very possible consequence.

 

I'm not saying its right or wrong, just a possibility, a likely one. Its not an easy truth but it is a human truth.

 

People have limits and ongoing dysfunction or marginal treatment (even if perceived) can push people to restore some control, or happiness.

[ThatMan]

Uh... rage? Give me just the smallest of breaks. I don't feel rage. God, this whole forum is silly most of the time. If you go to the OW side, you'll see such angry, rageful posts from bs's who probably aren't filled with rage, they just come across that way. You're labeling me with something I simply do not feel.

 

Enjoy your day.

I've seen those messages on the OW side. The messages you create are typically passive-aggressive and frustrating to read. Personal growth resides within yourself and not external things. So while I can respect and understand how that man you're speaking for on his behalf had reasons for cheating with you, I also understand that he will not achieve any growth by assigning blame. This idea isn't meant to take a shot at other women, wayward men, or anyone for that matter. You'll find everyone from many walks of life committed to personal growth. Even athletes compete solely against themselves while training.

 

This is why people should seek out individual therapy and not couples counseling for ongoing abuse or infidelity. I'm sure many have learned in therapy that accepting their role in the affair as betrayed spouses is nothing more than taking ownership of their point of view; that it is okay to feel hurt, you have every right to feel hurt, and that you deserve better treatment. Isn't it easy to recognize how different that is than one of two sides seeking out validation for dishing out mistreatment? Individual therapy is always about looking after your own welfare.

[ThatMan]

How I waste my time is my own business.

...And what if I was the WS?

What then?

 

I believe that none of us are capable of gauging how far the man you're speaking of has come over the years. This is something that only he can presume to understand. Validity...

 

Yes, validity would be the act of saying, "I wanted to cheat because I did not appreciate being neglected. I made the choice for myself to cheat." There are many wayward spouses so can say exactly that. They've also grown to say, "You know what? I do not like being in this relationship anymore. I'm going to pursue what's right for me instead of being timid and passive by having an affair."

 

But now you're essentially saying the betrayed spouses aren't owning up to the failings of their own relationship. Which after all, might be somewhat true. Betrayed women are just as deserving of being cheated on as being punched in the face. Just because a grown man feels as though a woman deserved being struck by a fist, doesn't mean that she asked for it. The same is true of all acts no matter how morbid. We are only responsible for ourselves.

 

To suggest otherwise is no different than a child stomping around in an adult body.

[William]

Different thread, same BS (not betrayed spouse).

 

This thread appears to be about one betrayed spouse and their experiences, primarily in the area of marital counseling surrounding a disclosed/discovered affair. Work that issue and abstain from editorializing about other members and/or taking the thread away from the thread starter's issue. Thank you!

[carhill]

OP, as it appears your WH has owned his responsibility, perhaps the two of you could work as a team to select and interview a counselor who can facilitate your reconciliation, presuming that's your goal.

 

IMO, I'd select a professional psychologist experienced in recovering marriages from infidelity and one which can demonstrate a clear plan to recover yours and can communicate that plan in simple layperson language. I found, in our case, such a person came best via fellow professional referral. It can also come by selective interviewing. After all, you are hiring them. They should fit with your needs and your temperaments and goals. If not, next.

 

I found, in our case, the psych worked my affair as the primary issue but was very sensitive to balancing the affair work with the marital work, which we both were tasked with and bore responsibility for. Hence, my exW didn't just sit back and watch the bloodbath; she faced some difficult *marital* questions herself and had to work her own issues. This path resulted from separate interviews, where neither of us were privy to what the other shared; only the psychologist had access to both 'sides'.

 

Good luck with your recovery. I hope it works out for you.

[sweet_pea]

Oh, he spends plenty of time accepting his role in the affair. I just look here and realize, NO BS accepts her responsibility in her part of her WS having one.

 

The affair is worse than ANYTHING. Yeah. Worse than being turned away for YEARS. Being told you are only good for YOUR MONEY. Yeah. That is all good too. OR, the worst: YOU MAKE ME LOOK GOOD TO THE PUBLIC AT LARGE.

 

It must KILL BS'S that WS are willing to risk all to get that validity. Why aren't you giving it? And I'm sure I'll hear : we DID. No, you didn't.

 

Enjoy your evening. You and your WS both failed. Not just the WS, but the BS.

 

Don't bother to respond.

 

As long as you deny this, be defensive of this, you'll fail.

 

Enjoy.

 

Chile…. Please tell me WHY I need to accept responsibility for someone else's actions? Why would I be responsible for two ADULTS and what they choose to do? Y'all really reach with this--- the BS doesn't need to accept responsibility for their spouse choosing to have an affair. That's on the spouse and the other person.

 

Why would I be responsible for two adult's choices to have an affair? Because I'm the spouse? I didn't tell them, didn't force them to have an affair. Is that how you operate, goody? When you do things, other people have to take responsibility for them?

 

The ONLY thing the BS is responsible for is their part in the marriage and whatever else they choose to do. The cheating is on the two people who had the affair. :roll eyes:

 

I had a bit to say about your other comments, but I gotta act like a lady

[atreides]

the BS's role... the audacity of such a question... rooted in the contradiction of the context that the problems of the marriage are not enough to leave it, no it's never that bad is it?

 

How bad can the marriage be when the WS so many times go into an A with "I am not going to leave my spouse and family" how can an argument even begin with such a fallacy given the context of the BS's supposed role?

 

Then there is the "well i am a good person, i was not looking for an affair, it just happened." Again as if choices, repeatedly and methodically were never made that lead to the A; instead, we are to believe it is some miraculous spontaneous event and if lucky the BS can get an apology. But just the shear context to use "it just happened" nullifies any role a BS had.

 

An affair is all about the choices one side of the marriage makes, in other words only one plays that role.

[DKT3]

I've been on the fence about this subject for a long time. Early on I blamed myself for her affair. If I had done this or said that it could have changed what she did. Putting myself through that was horrible.

 

I will never know if I didn't travel for work would have kept her faithful. But I do know that I was even more alone then she was and I didn't cheat. That thought is what got me past blaming myself. I remember saying that to her and her response was the job was my choice. I told her that cheating was her choice me being away didn't force her to turn to another.

 

In later years I fully understand that I was 90% of the cause for the state our marriage was in. Yet she is 100% at fault for her affair. It sounds simple but it took a lot for me to get to that point.

[whichwayisup]

Oh, he spends plenty of time accepting his role in the affair. I just look here and realize, NO BS accepts her responsibility in her part of her WS having one.

 

This is not true. Why should a BS claim ANY responsibility for their WS's choosing to have an affair? A BS's responsibility are issues in the marriage, I've seen many BS's admit their part in that aspect. So I guess with your logic if a MM ends his marriage, then go to his OW, then decides to go back home to his wife at some point, the OW must be partially to blame and take her part in why he chose to go back to his wife. That makes no sense.

 

A WS chooses to cheat on their own, nobody forces them to.

 

That marriage counselor is bunk and I am glad to hear the OP is not going back!

[woinlove]

First session of mc last night for the upcoming divorce and co parenting. She asked my WH why we are divorcing, he responds because he had an affair. She then asks me if I have accepted my roll in the affair? So I said yes, as CIA to his secret agent and I busted up the operation. I had no other roll. It was his choice alone. He didn't have any conversations with me but then thought he could cheat with impunity. He did what he wanted for himself.

I then get the speech of how my marriage caused him to cheat. So I asked why I didn't cheat in the same marriage? No answer. I then asked since I must have been partly responsible for his cheating, does he get some credit for my fidelity? No answer. She told me I was hurt and angry, I said duh!! Can I have my $200.00 back? My cat could have given that assessment.

Is this the general consensus? That because our marriage wasn't perfect I have to accept responsibility for his affair. I accept I wasn't a perfect wife, but I did try. **i later found out she was a WW.

 

The answer is clearly no. And I'm a former OW. I can see the motivation for a WS or AP to want to blame-shift, but everyone is responsible for his or her own actions and choices. I hope you find a counsellor that recognizes that and works from that starting point AND that you can learn that basic information about them during a free consultation. I'd be upset at paying $200 only to find out the counsellor didn't understand the basic premise of personal responsibility for one's own choices/actions, particularly sustained choices/actions.

[woinlove]

Speaking from experience of someone who suffered a major betrayal, then years later, an infidelity, I would have to say that none of these questions can be easily answered only talking about what is logical or reasonable.

 

When my WS and I were going through the early months of R, this is when her betrayal of our marriage from years before came back to light. It was then that I could look back and say there, that was the beginning of a major blow to our marriage. THAT is what put our marriage off course.

 

So, as always, the earlier betrayal (of ignoring her family's constant demeaning me as a person) did NOT CAUSE the later A., nor did it KILL the marriage, but to think that it had NOTHING to do with the emotional foundation upon which the infidelity occurred would be to ignore the obvious.

 

Although I did not go out and cheat because my wife betrayed me, she did go out and cheat. And I don't doubt that it was made easier EMOTIONALLY for her to do that because of the rupture that her betrayal caused me, allowing her to feel that I had somehow changed. I had, but I couldn't put then into words what her betrayal made me feel because it went on for years and we never addressed it. I began to feel less secure with her, less sure about the possibility that our marriage was as strong as it was. And I eventually forgot her role in this and saw only my inlaws as the culprits.

 

Of course she was reading this change in our connection, in our chemistry, and feeling something similar. Again, although this was, never was, an excuse to cheat, I cannot deny that it contributed to her being able to think that maybe the grass was greener on the other side, and that the available single OM she met might solve her problems.

 

The decision to cheat is hers at the moment of making it, of course.

 

Seeing a connection between what someone else did (in this case, you or your inlaws) and one's own sustained actions (your wife having an affair) doesn't get one very far as the real answer and the full responsibility lies with the individual.

 

To take one example most have little sympathy for: some men cheat when their wife is pregnant or gives birth -- perhaps fearing the responsibility or having some hangup about pregnant women, or perhaps feeling the infant's needs are displacing some attention from them. It doesn't get them very far to simply say there is some connection between the birth of my son/daughter and my affair. They have to delve deeper into why they went from that to an affair. When they do, they will learn the power of their own actions all lies within themselves and they can choose to become a parent and remain faithful or choose not to have more children, not to remain married,...

Edited April 22, 2014 by woinlove

[fellini]

To take one example most have little sympathy for: some men cheat when their wife is pregnant or gives birth -- perhaps fearing the responsibility or having some hangup about pregnant women, or perhaps feeling the infant's needs are displacing some attention from them. It doesn't get them very far to simply say there is some connection between the birth of my son/daughter and my affair. They have to delve deeper into why they went from that to an affair. When they do, they will learn the power of their own actions all lies within themselves and they can choose to become a parent and remain faithful or choose not to have more children, not to remain married,...

 

I think it's actually quite straight forward, and much simpler.

 

Affairs do not generally happen in a vacuum. There are conditions. Not least of which are the conditions of having someone with whom you want to have an affair.

 

I understand the BS desire not to allow "blame-shifting", I am, as a BS, in that camp. But I think reducing "reasons" and "justifications" to the entire complex conditions of affairs is missing something.

 

A marriage is the foundation upon which an affair emerges. This is obvious.

In the VAST majority of cases, certainly the cases here in LS, the WS is living in (experiencing) conditions not favorable to the marriage (this can be everything from the love is gone, the passion is gone, sex is being withheld, internet porn addiction, I don't feel needed, I dont feel whatever. I suffered a depression, my wife's pregnancy turned me off)

 

There is no shortage of things that can be unbalancing what was once a well functioning marriage.

 

NOW we HAVE 2 SPOUSES who have to deal with the problem.

 

What are the solutions?

 

1) invest in other activities (join a hockey team, take up yoga, go out more on girls night out, drink more heavily, go to the gym, masturbate more, put more energy into the life of the kids) whatever: basically get your needs met through alternatives.

 

2) talk about the issues with SO. (some have tried, some dont bother, have given up, some cannot communicate) or talk with some close friends to get advice on how to adjust behaviour at home (or a IC, MC)

 

3) Separate and/or divorce (always and option)

 

4) slide into an affair (quickly, slowly, unintentionally, intentionally, as revenge, as an attempt to find a way out once you dump the M, as a test) Many simply take solution 2, and find themselves doing that here in solution 4 beginning with opening up with a co-worker or close friend (Shirley Glass style affair)

 

So, for me, there are two aspects to an affair:

 

a) the preconditions that unsettled both (or one) spouse (the things they blame shift)

b) the decision to cheat among all other decisions.

 

It's no surprise a BS wants ONLY to focus on b) (and rightly so, there were other OPTIONS! and a WS (whether accepting or blame-shifting) wants to focus on a)

 

So yes, the decision to cheat, the choice among the 4 I present (and most probably there are others, but I'm not here to provide complete taxonomies) RESTS ENTIRELY upon the shoulders of the WS. But can we not at least acknowledge the the preconditions of the unstable marriage contributed to THAT DECISION?

 

The thing is, if I choose strategies 1, 2, 3 the problem does not go away. My marriage is still in trouble and I am merely avoiding it, or displacing it. Displacing problems does not make them go away, because I am still draining the marriage of vital aspects to its health and longevity (for example, I invested more in my daughter while my wife was unbeknownst to me, engaging in an affair with a co-worker. Her choice was number 4, to cheat, my role in this marriage was in 1: invest more emotional life in my daughters busy life, and a bit of 2) complain to my wife she works too much, and complain to friends instead of my wife about what she needed to do.

 

My wife chose to cheat, and I chose not to, not because the conditions didn't present themselves, but because I don't want to cheat and I found fulfillment in my other solutions.

 

My wife believed that her solution to her problem was to find another man with whom she felt she could get what she was supposed to be getting from me.

 

So I partly agree with you. I think men who cheat, as in your example, during their wife's pregnancy, is a general social phenomenon: "it happens a lot". These men might NOT have cheated had their wives not been pregnant at that moment in their lives. Conditions for cheating matter. They were not "cheaters" looking for an excuse (pregnant unattractive ignoring wife). Yes, we have to ask WHY they chose THAT OPTION among other solutions available to them, but to dismess ENTIRELY the needs they FELT for SOMETHING MORE or SOMETHING MISSING that they once felt in a marriage, or never felt and suddenly realise it's a basic need is NOT, to me, something to dismiss.

 

Now if after all that explanation someone is going to tell me I'm basically letting the WS blame the BS for his/her choice to cheat, there is no hope for civil and reasoned discussion in LS. IMO.

Edited April 22, 2014 by fellini