Do you really hate "religion"...

[pureinheart]

Listen, if I were to write my 100% honest unfiltered opinions on what I think about the concept of God and religion, I would be banned by the end of the day. So the fact that I still have posting privileges just proves how carefully I edit my thoughts on the subject to avoid offending or hurting the religious folks on this board.

 

Yet....yet....where is that same respect and restraint? I didnt see it in this thread when writer gal was being threatened with 'God's wrath,' that's for sure.

 

But let me guess..you feel as though YOU are being attacked, right?

 

Christians: no matter how nasty and disrespectful, THEY are ALWAYS the victim.

 

It's laughable.

 

IDK, you're doing a pretty good job on the offending end of it...

[D-Lish]

I see all religous people as 'child-like', but not in a nasty condescending way, looking for meaning in things and often blindly believing the explanations passed down by their parents (and lets be honest its difficult not too). Not to be pitied or ridiculed or condescended to, but argued with until the ridiculous nature of their 'beliefs' becomes apparent to them and they start to think for themselves.

 

I think most atheists think this way.

 

I agree with the above. I'd say I dislike all religions equally. My mother is a religious person, and I'd agree with the assessment that she is child-like in her beliefs- blindly accepting what's been told to her at church by her pastor. I've never known her to have too many thoughts on her own, she usually just regurgitates what's been said in a sermon.

 

I've taken many cabs home over the past few years, and have encountered a whack of muslims trying to convert me while in the back of their cabs- it's offensive and intrusive. I had one guy get so riled up when I told him I was an Atheist, that I became really uncomfortable and a little fearful. That's not the world I wish to live in- getting pushed around by self-righteous religious people trying to force their beliefs down my throat. I don't go around doing that to other people, and I expect the same respect in return.

[pie2]

... it isn't Christianity per se, it is faith in general. It is belief in the absence of evidence. Such beliefs are antithetical towards human progress.

 

 

Any courtroom in America would rely on the same type of evidence Christians use to formulate their best deduction of the who's/what's/when's/how's of our existence.

 

 

All sides rely on faith. But it certainly isn't blind.

 

 

I see all religous people as 'child-like', but not in a nasty condescending way, looking for meaning in things and often blindly believing the explanations passed down by their parents (and lets be honest its difficult not too). Not to be pitied or ridiculed or condescended to, but argued with until the ridiculous nature of their 'beliefs' becomes apparent to them and they start to think for themselves.

 

I think most atheists think this way.

 

 

Unfortunately, you still come across in a condescending way.

[pureinheart]

You do have a point, but it's not that simple.

 

Edward Bernays, for those who don't know, was Sigmund Freud's nephew, who rose to prominence by creating the industry of public relations. Basically he took his uncle's teachings and used them to tap into fundamental human desires as a means of making marketing and advertising more effective. His impact on the 20th century was pretty staggering; check out a 4-part BBC documentary called "The Century of the Self". Well worth watching.

 

Mr. Scorpio didn't say that indoctrination doesn't exist outside religion; however, I would agree with you that his words were overly restrictive. Indoctrination has been used, to great effect, outside of the confines of religion. In other areas in which the intention was to get people to fully accept one idea and to not even consider other ideas.

 

An obvious example is fascism, which as a political philosophy requires the switching off of free thought and debate, which brooks no deviance from the orthodoxy, and which metes out punishment for such deviation.

 

Hmmm....

 

I've researched Edward a bit and he is quite fascinating IMO. His uncle was skeptical about him actually putting his findings into action, he didn't want his nephew to "go there" because he knew of the power it contained…

 

MM, IMO at anytime or circumstance indoctrination can take place. As a child and teen years believed various things because my mother did.

[writergal]

Hate is a very strong word. I think those who have responded by saying they hate religion are being honest and accurate about their feelings. But it's sad that they're going through life with all of this animosity inside. I mean, you can't really escape the religious -- they're everywhere!

 

 

I think people get defensive when they hear Christian beliefs (which always seem to strike a chord). But the truth is, most Christians warn of the consequences of non-belief out of love. There is a genuine worry that if you don't do X (believe) then Y (not going to heaven) is going to happen to you.

 

 

Would it be loving if your doctor, who's told you you have cancer, doesn't let you know what the remedy is? No! Now, you can take the remedy or not...your choice. But don't kill the messenger, just because you don't like the message!

 

 

The religious are free to proselytize, just as others are free to ignore.

 

 

If an atheists would like to start a thread about their non-belief, they should. It just probably shouldn't go in the Spirituality and Religious Beliefs forum.

 

I hope you are open to feedback, pie2. (My guess is that you're not but what the heck I thought I'd check). You can't force your belief on me. And you're not "right" just because you believe in god.

 

Your post is accusatory. Essentially what you're saying is that religion is a remedy (to what you didn't really specify) and that non-believers need it in their lives. Um, no. It's a personal choice. And just because I don't believe in god or heaven or hell, doesn't mean I have to worry about the quality of my life as your post implies.

 

In case you missed the point of this thread (which all the religious people here have, apparently, because your goal is to preach the word of god to anyone, even if its against the other person's free will), it was to ask Atheists why they hate god. That itself is a ridiculous assumption. Atheists don't hate god. Atheists hate what people do in the name of god. Like you and the others here preaching nonstop about how Atheists are wrong, wrong, wrong. Lol! Um no, we have a different belief system than religious people. That's all. We are in the minority and as a result, have to suffer for it.

 

It's only the religious who believe that everyone HAS to believe in god or else...and that's just foolishness. What you label animosity, is really a different viewpoint. But, like I said earlier in this thread, it's what you religious people do: accuse nonbelievers of being hostile because we don't believe what you do. This fear mongering that all religious people ascribe to, is a marketing tool used by religion to try to sway people into believing a religion by using fear as the main sledge hammer that they hit people over the head with.

 

Behind your sarcasm is utter fear of the unknown. That's the truth. If god exists, well that takes away the fear of the unknown for religious believers. For Atheists, there is no fear of the unknown because life is lived in the present moment, in reality.

Edited March 22, 2014 by writergal

[pureinheart]

OP, I thought the purpose of your thread was to invite Atheists to come and discuss why they don't believe in God. Yet that's not the direction this thread took. Insults, Biblical references, and disrespect towards Atheists is what this thread has become.

 

It's just proof AGAIN that Christians will never allow Atheists to openly share their opinions. Otherwise, you'd have a thread where Atheists openly shared our opinions without being attacked by people who believe in God.

 

What has been accomplished in this thread? Absolutely nothing but arguments from both sides.

 

Just once I'd like someone who claims to be a Christian to actually allow us Atheists the opportunity to freely share our opinions without being attack or judged. But like God, that is just a myth, and not real.

 

Actually the direction was intended to find the reasons as to why only Christianity is hated, when most of the time most say they hate all religion.

 

My guess would be fear of various organizations and religions that actually are intimidating and would kill an individual over being gay and such, it is against their laws and the verdict is death. I fear these organizations and religions also and understand why there would be fear to attack them.

 

After hearing over and over on these boards that some hate "all" religion I have found that the only religion or faith that is brought up is Christianity and when this is coupled with their reasons, I've found it to tolerant of intolerance.

 

I seriously never expected the hate I am seeing with some posters…but it's a free country, for now anyway.

[Furious]

I live in a multi cultural and multi religious city that includes agnostics and atheists.

 

I was raised catholic....and my faith was tested just around the time I was about to be confirmed. Our priest at my church had just run off with church funds and the church secretary. Father James was a hardline priest....his sermons were boring and he was a holier than thou kind of preacher. To say the least our church members went into a tizzy after the scandal.

 

I learned long ago that for many people religion is just a label and many people from "whatever" religion can be hypocrites.

 

For me... I believe in honesty,kindness, generosity,peace, hope and love.

 

Some of the kindest people I know are Atheists , Agnostics, Christian, Jewish, Hindu,.....etc.....

 

I'm not against religion....I'm more about character and the individual as opposed to a religious label.

[pie2]

I hope you are open to feedback, pie2.

 

 

I'm always open to feedback! I just don't agree with almost anything you've posted.

 

 

In case you missed the point of this thread (which all the religious people here have, apparently, because your goal is to preach the word of god to anyone, even if its against the other person's free will), it was to ask Atheists why they hate god.

 

 

The point of this thread was this:

 

 

Do you really hate "religion" or is the translation "Christians" only? Over the years on LS, social media and MSM I've seen a trend of hatred towards Christianity. The communication starts out with hatred for all religion/faith-based institutions, but only Christianity is spoken of. Why is this?

 

Christians are considered the "oppressors" …seriously?

 

 

Best of luck, writergal. You clearly possess a lot of anger about this topic.

[pureinheart]

Actually the direction was intended to find the reasons as to why only Christianity is hated, when most of the time most say they hate all religion.

 

My guess would be fear of various organizations and religions that actually are intimidating and would kill an individual over being gay and such, it is against their laws and the verdict is death. I fear these organizations and religions also and understand why there would be fear to attack them.

 

After hearing over and over on these boards that some hate "all" religion I have found that the only religion or faith that is brought up is Christianity and when this is coupled with their reasons, I've found it to tolerant of intolerance.

 

I seriously never expected the hate I am seeing with some posters…but it's a free country, for now anyway.

 

Correction- I've found it to be tolerant of intolerance.

[pureinheart]

 

 

The point of this thread was this:

 

 

Thank God you saw this too, I thought I was loosing my natural mind. My wording can be "off", but didn't think it was this off!

[pie2]

Thank God you saw this too, I thought I was loosing my natural mind. My wording can be "off", but didn't think it was this off!

 

 

Well, I was thinking the same thing about myself, lol!

 

 

I guess this thread has taken off on it's own, and gotten a bit off-topic! I admit I didn't read the whole thing, though. Lots of negativity and, well, hatred.

 

 

But it's totally true, pih. It's so common for Christianity to bear the brunt of others' anger towards religion. For example, many people idolize eastern religions and bash Christianity. I personally think that it's the truth about sin that people get angered by.

[KathyM]

I don't think there's any reason people should be hateful to each other, or hate each other, no matter their religious beliefs. I know people of many different religions, and some with no religion, and they are very nice people. Everyone has a right to believe as they wish, and no one has a right to force their religious beliefs on others. People also have a right to tell others about their beliefs, and people have a right not to listen to it if they don't want to. People have a right to raise their children as they see fit, and their children have a right to decide for themselves what they believe. Unless someone lives in a country where there is religious oppression and there is no freedom of religion, we are all free to believe as we wish and practice our faith and talk about our faith. I don't really see why anyone would hate someone because of their religious beliefs, unless those beliefs involved bringing physical harm to you because of those beliefs, such as with Muslim terrorists engaging in their holy war against others. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people. The vast majority of all faiths are peaceful people. As far as Christians, the Christians I know are very peaceful people, many of whom are involved in wonderful altruistic endeavors. Feeding the poor. Housing the poor. Bringing supplies and medical help to those in need all over the world. Why do people not focus on the good in people, and instead only use some miscellaneous example of someone who screwed up, and use that as a means to condemn the whole faith? Christ was a very loving man who preached love for others, kindness to others, caring for others. He was a wonderful example of what it means to be a Christian. Why do people insist on using the example of some screwed up so-called Christian who is not practicing God's will, rather than using Christ as an example for what Christianity is all about? I don't think one single person here can fault Jesus Christ for any action or say he was not a good example of the Christian faith. Christ has instructed His people to spread the word of God to all nations. Christians are following His direction. They are doing it out of love for others and out of obedience to God. They mean no harm. There are some radicals in every faith. Some who are misguided, and twist their faith to justify all kinds of atrocious things. The vast majority of people who are Christians, as well as people of other faiths and people of no faith, are peaceful people. Why do some people feel the need to generalize the actions of a few radicals into some projection onto an entire faith? We can all get along. We can all respect each other's right to believe as we wish. We can all have the freedom to speak our faith to those who are open to listening to it. For those who are not, they are free not to listen to it. Christians are called to share our beliefs with others, so we are supposed to make the attempt, but only to those who are open to listening to it. I don't see why there is such hatred for people of any faith. Most people are not radicals that are physically trying to hurt someone. Most people are not trying to force their religion, or lack thereof, on others, unless you live in a country where there is oppression and no freedom of religion. So I don't see why there is this generalized hatred for someone else's faith. They are entitled to believe as they wish.

[Janesays]

IDK, you're doing a pretty good job on the offending end of it...

 

Of course. You're the victim. I sure didn't see that coming.

 

With that said, I'll bow out and let you guys have your religious discussion since it's painfully clear you really had no intention of listening to non believers as much as you wanted to insult them or preach to them. My bad, I shouldn't have let myself be baited.

 

Funny enough, I've never had these issues with Jews, Hindus or even pagans. Odd.

[pureinheart]

Well, I was thinking the same thing about myself, lol!

 

 

I guess this thread has taken off on it's own, and gotten a bit off-topic! I admit I didn't read the whole thing, though. Lots of negativity and, well, hatred.

 

 

But it's totally true, pih. It's so common for Christianity to bear the brunt of others' anger towards religion. For example, many people idolize eastern religions and bash Christianity. I personally think that it's the truth about sin that people get angered by.

 

This has to be it, although if one is Atheist or a faith other than Christianity it shouldn't matter. Eastern religions are embraced, now with some I can understand this, although with others I really don't get it especially for the reasons I've seen that bash Christianity.

 

Now I'm saying this because I do believe that Atheism is a faith, so with that I don't care what another faith thinks of me or my "group"…I will discuss it and get frustrated here and there, but that is it. Most of the time I just blow it off. Some are very respectful and I sincerely appreciate that.

 

This was soooo intended to be a thoughtful discussion, and I really thank those who were thoughtful.

[pureinheart]

Of course. You're the victim. I sure didn't see that coming.

 

With that said, I'll bow out and let you guys have your religious discussion since it's painfully clear you really had no intention of listening to non believers as much as you wanted to insult them or preach to them. My bad, I shouldn't have let myself be baited.

 

Funny enough, I've never had these issues with Jews, Hindus or even pagans. Odd.

 

No, I'm not a victim, and don't feel like one. I simply stated the obvious. I sincerely wish you the best concerning whatever endeavor you encounter:)

[pie2]

This has to be it, although if one is Atheist or a faith other than Christianity it shouldn't matter. Eastern religions are embraced, now with some I can understand this, although with others I really don't get it especially for the reasons I've seen that bash Christianity.

 

 

Yeah, there's an element to most religions that can be relatable and seem commendable.

 

 

Christianity is SO different from most religions though. It really preaches the opposite of what our human nature yearns to do (and what many religions promote), which is earn our way to glory. No, Christianity focuses on humbling ourselves, admitting our failures, and letting God's purpose become our first priority.

[writergal]

Before I bow out from this one-sided thread (surprise, surprise), I'll leave with these quotes:

 

"Religious people often prefer to be right rather than compassionate. Often, they don't want to give up their egotism. They want their religion to endorse their ego, their identity." - Karen Armstrong

 

"The most rabidly religious people are the most rabidly evil." - Juliana Hatfield

 

"Anyone who thinks sitting in a church can make you a Christian must also think that sitting in a garage can make you a car." - Garrison Keillor

 

"I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time." - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"Creationists make it sound like 'a theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night." - Isaac Asimov

 

"Faith means not wanting to know what's true." - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"All thinking men are Atheists." - Earnest Hemingway

 

"Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends." - Woody Allen

 

"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." - House

 

On religion, "The whole thing is patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life." - Sigmund Freud

Edited March 22, 2014 by writergal

[Tayla]

When things hit the Beleif level, decide where to draw the line, just don't end the line with a period or an exclamation point. Use a coma or pause, otherwise you've closed your minds off to possibilities....

[Grumpybutfun]

For those who say you shouldn't be on the Spirituality section if you aren't religious, that is part of the issue. Spirituality is not religion. I believe in a higher power, a possible creator in that I like to think there is some higher purpose to this all. Romantic, I know. However, I am not religious nor do I think Atheists are wrong. I simply do not know if there is a deity or not. I choose to think there is one for my own spiritual journey. I am a romantic at heart, as in romanticism, lover of nature as expressed through imagination and emotions, something a Creator created.

Spirituality for me encompasses using tenants of thought that comes from certain religions or philosophies that help us to deal with negative influences and temptations. I appreciate Buddhism for their practical approach to being present, enjoying life, acceptance of pain, acceptance of truth, being a part of the world without judgment for the value in our experiences. I appreciate Christianity for their ideas on helping others.

 

I don't believe we necessarily have to hate what we do not believe in in order for us to be free from its power. Every thought another person in history has recorded gives us insight and an ability to think differently than what had before we read them. No knowledge is a bad thing.

 

I think when we release trying to control others and the world, we fully understand outside of laws and safety expectations the value of being good for its own sake rather than punishment or reward.

 

I look at the world as energy based, life is energy, a spark that keeps it going, is the mystery, the awe. Spirituality to me is appreciating the intricacies of the mystery and working on myself to become a better person because it is the most valuable and pleasant thing I can do. I don't need weekly reminders or fear or reward based beliefs in order to do that. Maybe some do.

 

I do not hate religions or the religious, I just choose to think for myself and accept spiritually what feels and serves me best in my life's journey. Those who are religious with historical religions feel that is the best for them and that is their life's journey choice. However since Christianity is more prevalent in the USA, and their beliefs and witnessing ideaolgies are anathema to free will and respecting others beliefs, it is natural that people find their pursuit of righteousness and judgement from them distasteful and annoying.

 

I live in the Deep South and my approach to spirituality baffles them and angers them to such an extent I don't even bother expressing anything spiritual no matter how nice it is. Thankfully I am at the age where I just don't care and see them as sad and close minded rather than mean. Also, thankfully, I am just not the type of man who others really try to convert or intimidate. But, I have witnessed the peer pressure tactics and it isn't pretty amongst the religious.

 

I think, in answer to your question, the entire way Christians are supposed to carry out ther messages and their dogged conversions are exactly why so many try to avoid it and dislike it. However, Christians are in a rather precarious place since their entire dogma is built on witnessing and conversion so really it is not surprising to me that you feel this way, that people hate Christianity, pure. You have no choice but to share your religion and your Bible teaching if you follow your scriptures, but it doesn't mean that the more scientific or non religious are going to be converted so easily anymore since people are starting to think for themselves and see religion as something they no longer have to believe out of fear.

Respectfully,

Grumps

[pureinheart]

I do not "hate" religion. I think humanity would be much better off without it, and I used to get frustrated by it, but I don't hate it. IMO, the reason Christianity is "picked-on" more in America is simply because America is a predominately Christian nation.

 

To analogize: McDonald's has been number-one in America for years. As a result, they get full-length movies showing how poisonous their food is. Meanwhile, KFC makes a sandwich with meat for buns and receives far less condemnation.

 

And so it is with Christianity. Christians wield considerable political power in America. Christian influence -- or attempts at influence -- can be seen over issues ranging from public school curriculum (intelligent design, evolution, sex-ed) to gay-marriage to stem-cell research and now to the "right" to discriminate against homosexual citizens in business matters.

 

Put simply, Christians -- Evangelicals in particular -- speak with the loudest voices amongst religious groups in America. It seems only natural to me that Christians receive the loudest replies.

 

Now for the oppression bit. I don't believe anyone can seriously state that American Christians are as oppressive as Muslims in other nations. I assume this is what the OP was referring to. Furthermore, I've seen other discussions on other boards wherein Christians declare that Atheists are "hypocrites" for not flying to Afghanistan and criticizing the local population.

 

As to that particular claim, the truth is I rather enjoy having my head attached to my body. Some may claim that this is evidence that Islam is more oppressive than Christianity. Sure, if we're taking a per-capita count of oppression and atrocities amongst the major religions, Christianity will not be at the top of that list.

However, I do not believe this has anything to do with Christianity being inherently more peaceful or "superior" to other religions. Quite the contrary. History is littered with examples of atrocities committed in the name of Jesus. Some of them as recent as colonial times.

 

Rather, the reason Christianity is less oppressive than Islam is because Christianity has been moderated. I believe the only reason anyone has become "moderated" in regard to their faith is because they have assimilated at least some of the last 2,000 years of progress of human thought.

 

The doors leading out of scriptural literalism do not open from the inside. Religious moderation is the result of secular advancement. Primary among these is the basic tenant that people now value evidence and tend to believe a proposition based on the amount of evidence supported. Having learned something medicine over the last two-centuries, few people still equate illness with sin or demonic possession.

 

For reasons that are beyond the scope of this thread, the Middle East has found itself more susceptible to dogma and less advanced on many fronts that nations in the West. Strip away the advancements of secular-modernity, and America/Europe would be left back in the dark-ages, ruled by ignorance and fear.

 

And so, Christianity is less oppressive, but only because faith has been chipped away by the forces that the faithful resist.

 

Now, if we're speaking in strictly American terms? Yes, I believe some Christians are the oppressors, with oppression being defined in part as "unjust control". Matters of sexuality remain the most apparent example. I believe some Christians act out of fear and ignorance rather than any sort of rationality in these areas. Therefore, by definition, they are oppressive.

 

That is exactly what the thread was speaking to and did answer the question. Like MM said, you made some really good points- sorry I missed this.

 

As far as any Christians being oppressors, I still don't get this. Like saying to MM, we still are somewhat of a Democracy in the sense we can still vote. The ruling majority was Liberals, but this could change due to…well you know all of the issues.

 

Faith-based people are simply expressing their views just like non faith-based, so I think it would be fair to either say both are oppressive, or both are non oppressive. This was most of my point, I could say easily that those who don't agree with my views are the oppressors- it's just human nature.

 

As far as those who speak of being tired of evangelists, while I can understand the interruption being a pain, I get interrupted constantly with many things, like high pressure sales people, other faiths, and things of this nature…but I never hear rants concerning these things. Evangelists aren't killing people who don't agree with them.

 

We've been very fortunate here in America, we haven't had to experience what people of other nations have had to face- I mean look at our idea of poverty! This is not to say that REAL poverty doesn't exist, but it is a far cry from some countries.

[pureinheart]

I live in the Deep South and my approach to spirituality baffles them and angers them to such an extent I don't even bother expressing anything spiritual no matter how nice it is. Thankfully I am at the age where I just don't care and see them as sad and close minded rather than mean. Also, thankfully, I am just not the type of man who others really try to convert or intimidate. But, I have witnessed the peer pressure tactics and it isn't pretty amongst the religious.

 

I think, in answer to your question, the entire way Christians are supposed to carry out ther messages and their dogged conversions are exactly why so many try to avoid it and dislike it. However, Christians are in a rather precarious place since their entire dogma is built on witnessing and conversion so really it is not surprising to me that you feel this way, that people hate Christianity, pure. You have no choice but to share your religion and your Bible teaching if you follow your scriptures, but it doesn't mean that the more scientific or non religious are going to be converted so easily anymore since people are starting to think for themselves and see religion as something they no longer have to believe out of fear.

Respectfully,

Grumps

 

Respectfully back at cha!

 

I understand what you are saying, and I think it's human nature to be frustrated when another doesn't see the "enlightenment", like you were speaking of living in the Deep South. I get more frustrated with politics than spirituality, but even that has gotten better.

 

Well, I would say it's a matter of giftings and what God chooses to do with the individual. I know salvation is the core, although most of the people I hang with also understand that God is in control. I am horrible where evangelism is concerned, I've done it, but it had to be God leading me-

 

Loved your post, thank you:)

[OpenBook]

I hate (excuse the pun) to bring this up (OB ducks even while typing this), but I'm wrestling with a similar (related?) issue - hate within Christianity - e.g., what is described in the Bible that God hates. What triggered it was the death last week of Fred Phelps Sr., the founder and lead pastor (before he was reportedly excommunicated, anyway) of the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

I did quite a bit of online investigating (I don't know much about them) and ended up on their website, combing through everything and praying hard for discernment. It was a tough, stomach-turning read. They hate a lot of things. And back it up with Bible scriptures. ("We hate because God hates.") They do have a point about the Bible. That for every verse describing the lovingkindness of God, there are at least two that describe His hate and wrath raining down on the wretchedness of mankind.

 

So yeah, I can totally see why atheists and others "hate religion" esp. Christianity. I struggle mightily with a lot of it myself, as a believer. All I can do is keep praying for discernment and trust that God will show me what I need to know to navigate through. I don't feel confident enough to preach it to others... although I have happily testified about God's goodness to me when I turned to Him for help and obeyed His word. I can only speak for myself. I don't feel I have the knowledge or the authority to call others out on their own sins and how their lives are going to end up (unlike the Westboro crowd, who considers it their duty). This is yet another thing I struggle with about Christianity - the Biblical mandate to preach the gospel to the four corners of the earth. How can I, when I've got this big ol' honking plank in my own eye and struggling with all of it myself??

[truthbetold]

They would be an idiot to believe that the Earth is the center of the universe, or that trepanning is a valid medical procedure. They would be a fool to think that people could transform into cats or cast spells to raise storms and destroy crops, but they're knowledge of religion would be beyond reproach (since by now the church had loosened its grip such that people were allowed to own a bible).

 

Nice try, but you forgot to include the majority of the early Christians couldn't read much less afford a Bible. It was a painstaking process to transcribe the Aramaic, but if you're dead set against religion then you would likely retort that "the Church" put their spin on the words and there was a massive conspiracy to keep under control. The Church did everything to protect and share the truth. But it's a fact how expensive the Bible was in the beginning. Printers didn't exist until the reformation period.

 

Agree 100% and yet that's what all religious people do! They beat non-believers over the head with their spiritual propaganda and expect non-believers to suddenly convert and accept their beliefs as fact which is insane.

 

All? really? Now if you would have said "many" "most" I would have left it go. But you are doing (smacking over the head) what you don't wish to be done to you. I have never once IRL spoke of any agenda. Professionally if I encounter someone who is scared for their life, upset etc... I ask them what do THEY do to relax, or gain peace. If they tell me take a soak in a candlelit tub, have a cup of tea, Pray to the sun etc....I tell them that's good and to stay POSITIVE. Positive goes a long way to healing. (I might also comment the tea should be decaff to relax!) But other people must bring their faith to me FIRST before I would comment. They must ask ME pointed questions for me to share *my* beliefs and not ever the other way around.

 

I see all religous people as 'child-like', but not in a nasty condescending way, looking for meaning in things and often blindly believing the explanations passed down by their parents (and lets be honest its difficult not too). Not to be pitied or ridiculed or condescended to, but argued with until the ridiculous nature of their 'beliefs' becomes apparent to them and they start to think for themselves.

 

I think most atheists think this way.

 

This is PRICELESS! If you don't see the irony.....well yeah. Thanks for this though, I always enjoy a good laugh! Especially adding in the nice touch to go that extra mile to NOT be condescending.

 

Throwing out more orthodoxy isn't engaging in serious discussion or debate. And it's a good example of what I referred to earlier about organized religion getting people to switch off their thinking and mindlessly spout thousand-year-old doctrine as undeniable fact.

 

It's pretty arrogant for you to assume that people who follow religion "switch off their thinking". I am extremely analytical. So I did my homework. I don't believe anything "just because" I am told to, I search out facts for myself. Church History, early Christian writers,world history, the inquisitions. I have a science background, IME science proves religion more than it disproves it. BTW I really like your Jack Layton quote, interesting he actually believed in an organized religion, but a good quote no matter.

 

You'd have to provide specific examples for me to give a specific reply. However, I will offer this point. Indoctrination, by definition, implies teaching someone to fully accept one idea and to not even consider other ideas. I cannot think of many secular areas where this is the case, especially where science is involved. Science, by definition, involves observation and experimentation. It involves critical thinking and objective criteria.

 

Religion, on the other hand, demands indoctrination.

 

By your definition it's false. I have considered, researched, compared and contrasted as much as I needed to. Still came back to the church. I am not afraid of what I will find out there, unlike "some" others. I'm not afraid there is something out there that will shake my beliefs because I have a decent grasp on what all the other belief systems are, I must for my job. Science has come up with some errors of their own. One example out of many is that there were half men/apes sratching things out in cave walls for one. Instead of the truth, fully human men/women that were illiterate but still made a way to communicate. The way they are exploring that the sun only has 500 million years left, so we better see if Venus or Jupiter can support life! Hey I enjoy the solar system very much. I just know who I give the glory to on a glorious starry night after a hurricane has just blown through.(true story) Maybe I've just witnessed too many miracles and things that DO defy explanation and require faith.

 

I understand the frustration of the folks on this thread that are not Christian or are atheist. It's in the delivery people. If you are going to make statements about God or Jesus in terms of belief to someone of another faith or someone who does not believe in a God, in the least explain yourself. You can say that you are a Christian and as a Christian you believe X, Y,Z because you view the bible as word of god, etc. Generally when you explain folks will be "I get ya" or "I believe..." or some other form of dialog. Seriously, how would a random statement from Jesus mean anything when pitched out to an atheist? And if the person you are talking to doesn't express interest by entering into a "why" or "tell me more" kinda way, you need to back away.

(Ok, non Christian folk or atheist, I going down a path you won't be interested)

 

I know where the desire to tell folks everything comes from. I know part of being Christian is to "spread the word." The intent is good. You are living for and loving God first and because you are to love your neighbor as yourself you want them to be on the same path as you, you want them to have salvation. I get it....but you have to be able to accept where they are and what they believe cause that is part of loving them as well. And as someone else also suggested, pray for them all you want if you are concerned....just do it quietly. Although we are all asked to share the good news, let me tell ya, we ain't all equipped for one reason or another. Know you strengths and weaknesses. Again, live your life in a way that reflects really how we are instructed to live and I guarantee that will inspire folks to ask questions and perhaps listen when you explain how and/or why you are at the place where you are.

 

100% right on! This is exactly how I live my life and that's has been my experience with others. I absolutely cannot nor do I even desire to convert anyone. Their beliefs are on their own free will. If anyone chooses to convert that's between them and God. God does the converting not humans. He may use humans as a tool, but it's still Christ IN us and God doing the converting not us.

 

For me all I need to do is talk a walk on a beach. The ocean is my favorite thing in the world. To see the detail of the seashells, and creatures like seahorses and to think there is no creator?! Or the intricacies of a snowflake? The splendor of the butterflies in an aviary? The marvel of all of the differences in animals from giraffes to zebras? No creator? Now to *me* that's naive and arrogant to think you are your own power, but I totally respect that view exists and it's called free will.

[Emilia]

With that said, I'll bow out and let you guys have your religious discussion since it's painfully clear you really had no intention of listening to non believers as much as you wanted to insult them or preach to them. My bad, I shouldn't have let myself be baited.

This is why I usually don't participate in threads like this one. What's the point arguing with those that aren't capable of having a rational conversation about concepts and they even believe in some bearded guy in the sky?

[Madman81]

As far as any Christians being oppressors, I still don't get this. Like saying to MM, we still are somewhat of a Democracy in the sense we can still vote. The ruling majority was Liberals, but this could change due to…well you know all of the issues.

 

Faith-based people are simply expressing their views just like non faith-based, so I think it would be fair to either say both are oppressive, or both are non oppressive. This was most of my point, I could say easily that those who don't agree with my views are the oppressors- it's just human nature.

The difference can be illustrated by pointing to two endlessly topical issues -- abortion and gay marriage -- because support for or opposition to those issues tend to follow lines of faith. Those who oppose both on the basis of their religion are opposed to both being legal, i.e. they don't want anybody to get an abortion and they don't want gay people to be able to marry. In short, they want their beliefs to be extended to everybody, even to those who don't share them.

 

Those who are in favour of abortion rights and gay marriage have no interest in forcing those in opposition to get abortions or marry people of the same sex. They simply want those rights for themselves and for other people who want to exercise those rights. And they want to be left alone to run their lives without interference, without being picketed, without being harassed, without other people screaming in their face that they're "going to hell", etc.

 

As an atheist, I have no interest in telling you what you can or can't believe. I urge you to build all the churches you want, to pray before meals, to give 10% of your income to your church, to pass your views on to your kids, if you want to do those things. It would be wrong of me or anybody else to pass laws to prevent you from doing those things, because those are your decisions about your life. You want to be left alone to practise your faith and run your life as you see fit. No argument from me on that.

 

But, why is it that the religious tend to be so unwilling to show the same respect to non-believers?