Do you really hate "religion"...

[M30USA]

My philosophy is and has always been to never let religion get in the way of my relationship with God. I find many times that is exactly what happens. There is so much confusion and pressure that results from how one flavor of Christianity views or weights something verses another. And as I understand it, this happens within the Jewish faith and I will assume others.

 

I think what has made Christianity as a whole distasteful to many is simply their experience has only been of the extreme. The preacher standing on a milk crate with a megaphone preaching for hours outside of a student union. The chat with a stranger that 10 minutes in drops the "have you accepted Christ as your savior" who then insist on bombarding you with bible quotes...even after you politely say you aren't interested.

 

That is NOT how anyone should be introduced to the concepts of Christianity and when a Christian becomes dismissive or judgmental because someone doesn't want to hear it, well then they really don't get what it is all about.

 

"But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect"

 

I will never force my beliefs on someone, I will accept what other's believe even if I do not approve (obviously my approval ain't squat anyway)...I think that is part of respecting and loving one another. I have no problem making reference to God and his blessings or thanking him publicly nor do I have an issue sharing my beliefs if a conversation goes that direction. I think how you live is really the best way to evangelize what it means to be a Christian, not the fact that one can spout Bible verses.

 

What is your opinion of the scriptural John the Baptist?

[pureinheart]

This is part of my issue also, mostly online. My mother who is deceased now, detested any acknowledgement of my God. My mother was, besides my kids, was the closest person to me, yet I could not talk about my faith, which was the most important thing to me.

 

I wasn't offended by her "lack of faith", of which she talked about here and there. Sometimes my faith did make a difference especially with my kids. A friend of hers gave her some books teaching how to practice witchcraft by casting spells and such. She put them in the same area as my kids toys. I asked her to move them, she wouldn't…hummm where was the lack of respect?

 

Just want to say the reason I asked her to do it is for the fact that I had a reputation. After doing my weekly cleaning on her house, she'd call me several times asking where I had put stuff, so was trying to avoid this.

[M30USA]

1. Constantly pressures me to go to church

 

"Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, “‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest? (Acts 7:48, 49 ESV)

 

2. Plows me with with pamphlets, books, etc

 

Have you ever given someone a book or DVD about investing, finances, raising children, relationships, or achieving happiness?

 

3. Makes non stop comments about how God would 'improve' me in some way

 

This sounds like a comment typical of the modern church which makes you think God is all about helping you achieve YOUR goals, making YOU more succesful, etc. It's not about you or us. It's about Christ and his coming kingdom.

 

4. Shows up on my doorstep with the intent to 'teach' me about God

 

I might agree with you on this one, only because it seems like trespassing on private property to me.

 

 

5. Attempts to pass laws based on their religous doctrine and ignores separation of church and state.

 

All laws are based on SOMEBODY'S views, code of ethics, or religion. This is a fact. It will either be somebody else's or yours.

 

Secondly, the separation of church and state is intended to keep government out of religion; not religion out of government. It was designed to PROTECT religion, not extinguish it.

 

6. Attempts to convert my children behind my back

 

They shouldn't do that. But at the same time, hopefully you don't consider it "brainwashing" when Christians raise their own children the way THEY see fit.

 

7. Acts in an ugly, harassing or abusive manners towards those with differing beliefs.

 

I'll agree with that.

Edited March 21, 2014 by M30USA

[Janesays]

"Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, “‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest? (Acts 7:48, 49 ESV)

 

See? I make it clear I have ZERO interest in religion and you still feel the need to speak to me in bible quotes. That's insulting.

 

 

Have you ever given someone a book or DVD about investing, finances, raising children, relationships, or achieving happiness?

 

No! Heck no! How rude would that be? If someone told me they had no interest in attachment parenting and I showed up at their baby shower with a book about attachment patenting....then I can ABSOLUTELY see how that might offend them.

 

You can't see how that kind of thing is offensive?

 

Secondly, the separation of church and state is intended to keep government out of religion; not religion out of government. It was designed to PROTECT religion, not extinguish it.

 

All religions. Not just Christianity. A fact that a lot of Christians seem to forget.

 

 

They shouldn't do that. But at the same time, hopefully you don't consider it "brainwashing" when Christians raise their own children the way THEY see fit.

 

Ha! I'll go even further....I used to work very closely with children. And sometimes, in the course of my work, these kids would ask me the typical questions that kids ask, "where do babies come from?" Etc.

 

A lot of times, I would be asked about God, Jesus, the bible, heaven, what happens when you die.

 

Did I respond with, "well darling, God is a made up fantasy to make people feel better about being jerks or relieve their fear of death."

 

NO. I NEVER would say that. Instead I said, "That is something you need to ask your parents about."

 

But literally EVERY SINGLE TIME I've seen a Christian get asked this same question (by children they aren't even related too!), they practically CHOMP AT THE BIT to fill this kids head full of their nonsense.

 

Where is the same respect and restraint?

[pureinheart]

Which laws? I believe you'll agree that society would not work as well if people stopped making widgets and started killing each other over the slightest heresy?

 

My wording was off, and like stating before "laws" in this sense was the wrong wording. Maybe a better wording would be His ways or teachings.

 

Possibly not as thoughtful as I'd like, but realized it was a simple question requiring a simple answer lol…I like to make things more complicated than they need to be.

Edited March 21, 2014 by pureinheart

[pureinheart]

I don't like zealotry of any kind religion or otherwise. I have no issues with people of faith because many of them are good and intelligent people but I don't like fanatics and religion is not the only place you find fanatics.

 

Very true Woggle…I'm a fanatic in the worlds terms, so consider it to be "passionate"..lol

[Keenly]

Let me also throw in when people use bible quotes like they are scientific facts or like because its a religious law that they believe in or agree with that they then think that EVERYONE should follow it, even non religious people.

[pureinheart]

I think religion has a valuable place in people's lives, especially those who feel their lives are enriched and empowered by religious belief and dogma.

 

I do, however, despise religious 'panhandlers' who accost me to either solicit for their cause or seek to indoctrinate me into it.

 

You're funny CH. I know your being serious, but your wording cracked me up- I got a visual on that one:laugh:

 

You know, I'm seeing indoctrination in many things, especially the secular, but this seems to be acceptable and even praised in some cases, with the very same people calling me (and others) interesting terms.

[Janesays]

You're funny CH. I know your being serious, but your wording cracked me up- I got a visual on that one:laugh:

 

You know, I'm seeing indoctrination in many things, especially the secular, but this seems to be acceptable and even praised in some cases, with the very same people calling me (and others) interesting terms.

 

See, this sort of thing baffles me. You start a thread where you, presumably, want the thoughts and opinions of non believers. So a couple of us (carhill, keenly) politely and respectfully try to tell you how we feel.

 

Yet....I see NOTHING in any of your lists that suggests you are LISTENING to what we are saying.

 

Christians are famous for hearing but not listening.

 

Now do me a favor and quote a bible verse or talk some more about how awesome your religion is to you like I know you're just ITCHING to do.

[Madman81]

Mr. Scorpio made some excellent comments above. Of course Christianity is going to be the most frequent target of anti-religious speech in this part of the world: it's the dominant religion in this part of the world. It's the religion predominantly promoted by those in government in North America. It's the religion in this part of the world making the loudest and most frequent comments on social issues. It's the religion in this part of the world that's seeking most strongly to influence people's lives.

 

I believe that organized religion is detrimental to the advancement of humanity. At its core, it seeks to divide people into "cliques" which seek to promote their own superiority to the other cliques. Every religion, and most strains within those religions, believe that theirs is the only true path to heaven. They can't all be right.

 

It's important to remember the time period from which religion emerged: the time period before modern science. A time period in which people had no way of understanding or explaining the things they saw around them each day, and created stories to make the uncertainty and awesomeness a little bit easier to deal with. They prayed to their gods to save them from X, Y and Z, and then when X, Y and Z nonetheless happened, they could simply shrug and say "oh well, it's God's will, I can't presume to know why he/she does what he/she does." Religion thus became a pre-packaged, ready-made means for those seeking power to subjugate those willing to believe in it.

 

Modern science has answered most of the questions that religion was originally developed to explain, and yet there are still millions who follow it. The problem is that religion is so rigid and so dogmatic that it regularly leads people, who are otherwise intelligent, rational in most respects and full of curiosity, to shut off their minds and follow fairy tales that have been kicking around for millennia, and which are blatantly at odds with everything we now know about science.

 

That's my view. Having said that, I'm not opposed to people believing whatever they want to believe in their own lives, and hanging out with others who share the same beliefs. If they want to believe things that are at odds with modern science and understanding, who am I to tell them they can't? Naturally, however, I reserve the right to think they're wrong, or foolish, and to call them out on that when I feel like it. That's the essence of free speech: nobody's right to say what they think is in any way superior to anybody else's right to call them out on it.

 

What I object to is the efforts of the religious to control others based on their religious beliefs that others don't share. The most obvious current examples are abortion rights and gay marriage. You don't believe in abortion or gay marriage? Bully for you. Don't participate in either. I, and millions of others, do believe in them. And please -- extend to me the same respect for my beliefs that you demand for yours. You wouldn't like it if I picketed your church/mosque/synagogue because I don't agree with your beliefs and how you practice them, so don't picket an abortion clinic or gay pride parade where those who don't agree with your beliefs practice theirs. Recognize that others have different views, don't try to impose your views on them, and we'll all get along much better. You want to practice sharia law in your personal affairs? No problem. Just recognize that religious law ISN'T the law of the land in North America, and that where your religious law conflicts with it, the law of the land wins. Sorry if that means you have to remove your burqa in order to have a driver's license photo taken, but that's the law here. Deal with it.

 

So, as a non-believer in organized religion, what do I believe in? In terms of legality, I believe in rationality over emotionality. I believe that each person should be free to run his or her life as they see fit, as long as they don't negatively affect somebody else's life in the process. I am open to the possibility that there's something out there greater than humanity, greater than anything we've observed so far, but I also believe that it doesn't resemble any description the religious have seen fit to assign to it. And I believe that it's the height of human arrogance for any of us to claim to understand it or speak to it.

 

And I'm pretty sure that it doesn't need financing, or human organization.

[M30USA]

Ok, Jane. Well I guess I won't speak religion to you anymore since that's what you want. I'm just wondering why you're posting in a Spirituality section. Do you know why?

 

Incidentally, my Bible quote was used to illustrate agreement with you, in case you missed that.

Edited March 21, 2014 by M30USA

[Keenly]

Ok, Jane. Well I guess I won't speak religion to you anymore since that's what you want. I'm just wondering why you're posting in a Spirituality section. Do you know why?

 

Incidentally, my Bible quote was used to illustrate agreement with you, in case you missed that.

 

You can't ask for an opinion and then say " why are you in this section " when a dissenting opinion is voiced.

 

 

 

The logic... I just don't understand.

[pureinheart]

See, this sort of thing baffles me. You start a thread where you, presumably, want the thoughts and opinions of non believers. So a couple of us (carhill, keenly) politely and respectfully try to tell you how we feel.

 

Yet....I see NOTHING in any of your lists that suggests you are LISTENING to what we are saying.

 

Christians are famous for hearing but not listening.

 

Now do me a favor and quote a bible verse or talk some more about how awesome your religion is to you like I know you're just ITCHING to do.

 

You have no idea what "I'm itching to do"…talk about not "listening".

 

If you re-read my responses to CH and Keenly I obviously did "listen"…can I not disagree? Where was I not respectful

[Janesays]

Ok, Jane. Well I guess I won't speak religion to you anymore since that's what you want. I'm just wondering why you're posting in a Spirituality section. Do you know why?

 

Incidentally, my Bible quote was used to illustrate agreement with you, in case you missed that.

 

Did I start a thread in this section asking "Christians! Tell me about your religious beliefs!"

 

No, I did not. If I had, bible quotes, personal stories about religious faith, notations about religious laws and historical religious leaders and blah blah blah would be more than appropriate.

 

Read the first post in this thread. That post is asking non believers if they dislike religion or just Christians and why?

 

In short, I am posting here BECAUSE I WAS ASKED AND INVITED TOO.

 

YOU asked US how WE felt. We asked you NOTHING.

 

Now I AM going to ask you a question: WHY ask if you have zero interest in the answer? I feel like I joined this thread under the guise of being invited to join in a polite discussion.....but the reality is I was just being 'invited' to listen to the same preaching that I have been dodging my whole life.

 

If all you want to do is preach and glorify God or whatever, DO IT. Just leave me out of it. That is ALL any non believer really asks of Christians. Quit trying to trick or manipulate us into listening to this nonsense.

[pureinheart]

You're funny CH. I know your being serious, but your wording cracked me up- I got a visual on that one:laugh:

 

You know, I'm seeing indoctrination in many things, especially the secular, but this seems to be acceptable and even praised in some cases, with the very same people calling me (and others) interesting terms.

 

JUST TO MAKE SURE…CH I thought your wording was cute because I've seen your posting style and wording for a few years now. I meant no malice;)

[writergal]

These threads always amuse me for the hypocrisy that occurs. This thread is yet another example of why Atheists and Agnostics rarely speak up with their opinion. If/when we do, we either 1) get lambasted for our belief 2) have Bible verses and holy curses thrown at us as a way to threaten and/or punish us for being non-believers and 3) ignored completely and 4) Christian conversion attempts.

 

There are no Atheist/Agnostic boards on LoveShack and that's a shame. We deserve a platform as well for our non-belief system.

 

Religion is a huge waste on humanity in my opinion. It's a form of engineered obedience training. "Fear God. If you don't follow the ten commandments HE will smite you and you will go to Hell!"

 

Religion is THE most powerful instrument of social conditioning because it trains people to doubt themselves, and convinces people to put their trust in an unseen entity like a holy deity or holy book which by the way is not created by said entity or deity, but created by man to manipulate and control man.

 

Also, faith is fear. Religion is the systematic marketing of fear. And the fear becomes so ingrained, so habitual, that religious followers become unaware that they are simply following along without any sense of self because they've given up that sense of self and all the responsibilities that come with it (like accountability, for example if you look at all the priests who molest their parishioners but never get jailed for their actions, thus no accountability).

 

Frankly, I feel more free, more safe not being condemned to blindly follow a system rules that operates on the reward punishment spectrum. I'd rather be an Atheist and make my own decisions, trust myself than some guy in a robe who is no better than me, aside from the fact that he spent a few years studying religious texts which I could easily do myself just by going to the library.

 

Religion's not my cuppa tea. Atheism. It's the only way to live a real life.

Edited March 21, 2014 by writergal

[writergal]

Did I start a thread in this section asking "Christians! Tell me about your religious beliefs!"

 

No, I did not. If I had, bible quotes, personal stories about religious faith, notations about religious laws and historical religious leaders and blah blah blah would be more than appropriate.

 

Read the first post in this thread. That post is asking non believers if they dislike religion or just Christians and why?

 

In short, I am posting here BECAUSE I WAS ASKED AND INVITED TOO.

 

YOU asked US how WE felt. We asked you NOTHING.

 

Now I AM going to ask you a question: WHY ask if you have zero interest in the answer? I feel like I joined this thread under the guise of being invited to join in a polite discussion.....but the reality is I was just being 'invited' to listen to the same preaching that I have been dodging my whole life.

 

If all you want to do is preach and glorify God or whatever, DO IT. Just leave me out of it. That is ALL any non believer really asks of Christians. Quit trying to trick or manipulate us into listening to this nonsense.

 

It's a passive-aggressive tactic used to start an argument with non-believers so they can justify why they believe in a religion. Would be much simpler NOT to start a thread where the intent is to attack non-believers for their non-religious beliefs. That is why I don't even visit the Spirituality board on LS anymore. It's futile to reason with religious people. They can't be bothered to understand a non-believer's POV b/c that would threaten their own religious beliefs. It's exactly why I left my Catholic faith that was forced upon me the day I was born. Since I've become an Atheist, my life has been much happier. I should also add that religion is a lot like theater where a performance is put on and an audience is needed. Without that audience, there is no show. That's why religious people attack non-religious people's views. They need to start an argument to justify their own belief system, otherwise no one would really care why they believe what they believe. But if they can create conflict by arguing WHY a non-believer is going to hell, then they have validated their religious belief. Then they feel justified.

Edited March 21, 2014 by writergal

[Allumere]

What is your opinion of the scriptural John the Baptist?

 

I think folks that were ready to listen dug him for the most part although surely some were annoyed as I am with the milk crate guy...however...I think it's like comparing an apple to a potatoe. John was of divine birth, a preacher and a prophet. He was direct and blunt in his speech, not all flowery or eloquent. I don't see him using "that ton of voice." He stated the facts, just the facts. I don't think he was a guy I'd sit down and be able to hash over the day with over beer....getting maybe a nod or grunt unless I hit on that one thing he had a definite opinion on. He was the right guy to plow the road so to speak at that time and he probably had more folks listen vs my milk crate dude because of how he lived (he walked the walk). He wasn't all sucked up being worldly, had no money, lived in the woods etc...and obviously could care less about what others thought.

 

The milk crate guys (in my experience) are simply mouth pieces affiliated with churchs that are focused more on evangelizing to increase body count then really truly living a godly and god inspired life. I can handle preachy and sing-songy, like you hear at a gospel church, but if there isn't a message or point then yep, I'm tuning out.

[Janesays]

. I should also add that religion is a lot like theater where a performance is put on and an audience is needed. Without that audience, there is no show. That's why religious people attack non-religious people's views. They need to start an argument to justify their own belief system, otherwise no one would really care why they believe what they believe. But if they can create conflict by arguing WHY a non-believer is going to hell, then they have validated their religious belief. Then they feel justified.

 

Don't forget the part where the play their victim card and turn it all around on you like YOU are persecuting THEM.

 

I challenge anyone to look at my posting history. I have NEVER ONCE interfered with anyone's religious discussion on this board. You have all your threads where you talk about Jesus or john the baptist or angels or about your journey to being more Christ like and blah blah blah. And I, as an atheist, just leave you too it, don't I? Hey, if it makes you happy to believe in virgin mothers and magical arks, I will be the last one to show up and wee wee on your parade.

 

But then, when ASKED about my beliefs, do I get the same respect? Of course not. Instead it's all John the baptist this or God says that or trust in HIM blah blah blah.

 

And then I point out that THIS....THIS EXACTLY...is why non believers don't like Christians. Because you just CANT RESIST cramming this crap down our throats.

 

Your answer to that? *sniff, sniff, then why are you posting?*

 

Maddening

[M30USA]

These threads always amuse me for the hypocrisy that occurs. This thread is yet another example of why Atheists and Agnostics rarely speak up with their opinion. If/when we do, we either 1) get lambasted for our belief 2) have Bible verses and holy curses thrown at us as a way to threaten and/or punish us for being non-believers and 3) ignored completely and 4) Christian conversion attempts.

 

There are no Atheist/Agnostic boards on LoveShack and that's a shame. We deserve a platform as well for our non-belief system.

 

Religion is a huge waste on humanity in my opinion. It's a form of engineered obedience training. "Fear God. If you don't follow the ten commandments HE will smite you and you will go to Hell!"

 

Religion is THE most powerful instrument of social conditioning because it trains people to doubt themselves, and convinces people to put their trust in an unseen entity like a holy deity or holy book which by the way is not created by said entity or deity, but created by man to manipulate and control man.

 

Also, faith is fear. Religion is the systematic marketing of fear. And the fear becomes so ingrained, so habitual, that religious followers become unaware that they are simply following along without any sense of self because they've given up that sense of self and all the responsibilities that come with it (like accountability, for example if you look at all the priests who molest their parishioners but never get jailed for their actions, thus no accountability).

 

Frankly, I feel more free, more safe not being condemned to blindly follow a system rules that operates on the reward punishment spectrum. I'd rather be an Atheist and make my own decisions, trust myself than some guy in a robe who is no better than me, aside from the fact that he spent a few years studying religious texts which I could easily do myself just by going to the library.

 

Religion's not my cuppa tea. Atheism. It's the only way to live a real life.

 

Many words...but you still have to deal with Jesus. Forget about me and any hypocrisy I might have. Jesus isn't going away just by not getting it jammed down your proverbial throat--and his identity should concern everyone including atheists.

 

Writergal says atheism is "the only way to live a real life".

 

Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life..."

 

One of the above two people is wrong.

Edited March 21, 2014 by M30USA

[writergal]

Many words...but you still have to deal with Jesus. Forget about me and any hypocrisy I might have. Jesus isn't going away just by not getting it jammed down your proverbial throat--and his identity should concern everyone including atheists.

 

ROFL! No. I don't have to deal with Jesus! LOL! You've just proved my point about religious people attacking non-religious people and threatening them with "you better believe or else..." kinda tactics. As an Atheist I would never threaten a religious person the way you have threatened me here that they better stop believing in their religion "or else." Sigh. But thanks for the good laugh.

[M30USA]

ROFL! No. I don't have to deal with Jesus! LOL! You've just proved my point about religious people attacking non-religious people and threatening them with "you better believe or else..." kinda tactics. As an Atheist I would never threaten a religious person the way you have threatened me here that they better stop believing in their religion "or else." Sigh. But thanks for the good laugh.

 

Good luck with that. At least we both understand where the other stands.

[pureinheart]

It's a passive-aggressive tactic used to start an argument with non-believers so they can justify why they believe in a religion. Would be much simpler NOT to start a thread where the intent is to attack non-believers for their non-religious beliefs. That is why I don't even visit the Spirituality board on LS anymore. It's futile to reason with religious people. They can't be bothered to understand a non-believer's POV b/c that would threaten their own religious beliefs. It's exactly why I left my Catholic faith that was forced upon me the day I was born. Since I've become an Atheist, my life has been much happier. I should also add that religion is a lot like theater where a performance is put on and an audience is needed. Without that audience, there is no show. That's why religious people attack non-religious people's views. They need to start an argument to justify their own belief system, otherwise no one would really care why they believe what they believe. But if they can create conflict by arguing WHY a non-believer is going to hell, then they have validated their religious belief. Then they feel justified.

 

Soooo, I'm passive-aggressive? Or I used this as a tactic to attack posters and rip them into shreds?

 

FTR, it's a spin from another thread that I committed to start...

[writergal]

Don't forget the part where the play their victim card and turn it all around on you like YOU are persecuting THEM.

 

I challenge anyone to look at my posting history. I have NEVER ONCE interfered with anyone's religious discussion on this board. You have all your threads where you talk about Jesus or john the baptist or angels or about your journey to being more Christ like and blah blah blah. And I, as an atheist, just leave you too it, don't I? Hey, if it makes you happy to believe in virgin mothers and magical arks, I will be the last one to show up and wee wee on your parade.

 

But then, when ASKED about my beliefs, do I get the same respect? Of course not. Instead it's all John the baptist this or God says that or trust in HIM blah blah blah.

 

And then I point out that THIS....THIS EXACTLY...is why non believers don't like Christians. Because you just CANT RESIST cramming this crap down our throats.

 

Your answer to that? *sniff, sniff, then why are you posting?*

 

Maddening

 

LOL! Agree with you 100%! See M30USA's next post to me, where he threatens me that I'll still have to deal with Jesus. He just proved my point about how religious people threaten non-believers but its never vice versa. You never read about an Atheist group storming a church with picket signs, "STOP BELIEVING IN GOD OR ELSE!" LOL! No, we don't do that because that's pointless and disrespectful. Atheists and Agnostics (in my opinion) let people be because we don't need to convert anyone. And we just don't care what other people believe as long as our beliefs are respected. It's just pointless to try and reason with religious believers about a non-believer's POV because they just don't want to hear it. They will never accept or respect non-believers so it's futile even discussing acceptance with religious people.

[M30USA]

LOL! Agree with you 100%! See M30USA's next post to me, where he threatens me that I'll still have to deal with Jesus. He just proved my point about how religious people threaten non-believers but its never vice versa. You never read about an Atheist group storming a church with picket signs, "STOP BELIEVING IN GOD OR ELSE!" LOL! No, we don't do that because that's pointless and disrespectful. Atheists and Agnostics (in my opinion) let people be because we don't need to convert anyone. And we just don't care what other people believe as long as our beliefs are respected. It's just pointless to try and reason with religious believers about a non-believer's POV because they just don't want to hear it. They will never accept or respect non-believers so it's futile even discussing acceptance with religious people.

 

Where's my threat to you? I'm merely quoting the historical words of Jesus of Nazareth. Please stop making this a personal issue.